Should it be illegal for liberal college students with long hair to burn our flag?

It shouldnt be illegal for anyone.

I agree. It should be legal for anyone. It is a non-violent, symbolic way to voice dissent, and freedom of speech should be protected.

What does long hair have to do with anything?

The hair doesn't matter (unless it catches on fire)

It should not be legal

And I wouldn't call burning the flag non-violent.

How about blowing up someone's house if you don't agree with them? That would be a symbolic way to voice dissent.

MT

Which would be violent and destructive. I understand that it can be shocking and hurtful to see a U.S. flag being burned. For many people it stands for our short history, and our relatives that have died in battle that brought freedom and justice and eventually peace. Most of the battles it brings to mind were hard fought and had purpose and helped to free others (like WW2).

However, when an American burns their flag they are angry at something their government is doing. Better they burn my flag than riot in the streets killing and burning buildings. They are allowed to voice their opinions in non violent ways. It's meant to get attention.

When people all over the world are protesting and burning our flag it's also to get attention. They are angry at something our government is doing, either rightly or wrongly.

I much prefer they get my attention by burning my flag then bombing buildings and hijacking planes. Maybe, our position in some global affair that I'm not yet aware of is causing them to see something other than freedom and justice. Maybe it's representing, to them, the opposite.

From now on, when I see someone burning an American flag in, say, Chile I will damn well try to find out what's behind it instead of getting angry, turning off my television, and accusing them of being ignorant.
Could be that the ignorant one is me if I don't bother to make myself aware of what my flag is standing for nowdays.

It is un-American to burn our flag. It is even morr un-American to outlaw flag burning. We didn't fight world war two to save flags, we fought it to save our freedom. Burning a flag is freedom of speech.

I wish I could remeber who it was, but some pundit, shortly after the passge of the USA Patriot Act, said:
That pretty much sums up my sentiments. (Anyone have a source on this?)

A Quote from Roy copied from Proud Patriot.

the flag is a symbol of every person that died fighting for American freedom. Every time I looked at the flag I saw 15 year old revolutionaries and 18 year old vietnam vets.

When I got out I realized that it stood for more still. The flag represents the "True" America. The philosophy that everyone should be free to make their own choices without harming others. Some administrations try to get there but most don't bother. The flag doesn't represent our corrupt people/government. It represents what our people/government should be.

The American Flag is a symbol of everything we hope to be and all the good things we've faught hard to be. It's our past, present and future. It's our people, our land and our aspirations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is beautiful and it's how I feel about the flag. What kind of a person would burn their country's flag? Someone who wants attention, I think. It's sick.

MT

Excellent quote.

That hits the nail on the head.

Burning the flag, as wrong as it may seem, is a form of protest. It should be protected by the 1st Amendment.

However, if you choose to burn a flag within my view, I can assure you I will exercise my first amendment right to artistic freedom and make your face the prettiest color purple with the artistic tool of my choice, most likely my foot. (Was that too harsh? )

Free speech is free speech.

Mike

But it's still just a SYMBOL, its not like spitting in the face of a veteran (which happened to many 'Nam vets when they returned home), its not literally burning our freedom. Its just a piece of cloth.

I don't agree with burning our flag but if that is what you choose to do who am I? But I have a question? I have seen many times on the News People burning our flag on our soil and in foriegn countires, but I can't remember seeing the U.S. burn another countries flag or for that matter another country burn their own flag. I have I missed it? And does anyone know what are the laws for foreign countries whose citizens burn their flag?? :

Come to think of it, I haven't seen other flags being burnt either. I suppose it must happen though.

MT

Several US flad burnings took place over the past few years. I thought it went all the way to the Supreme court, but all I found quickly tonight was the following link which I found interesting anyway.
http://ttokarnak.home.att.net/FlagBurning.html

Im pretty sure England does not have a law against flag burning. I asked on a different board about that, and one of the British girls was like "What do we care? Its a piece of cloth, its not going to take away our rights."

some things are just wrong, regardless if they're protected by the 1st amendment or not. Burning the US flag is just plain wrong. It's disrespectful to all those who have died to protect the rights that we enjoy as americans. If someone needs to protest something, they can find a better way to do it besides that.

Try debating why our pledge is such an issue with a non-American and they will be equally baffled.

When it gets to the point that those rights are being threatened, than burning the flag is a symbolic way to voice dissent. As much as anyone says that it is disrespectful to those who have died for this country, it is still a symbol and a non-violent form of protest. No one is saying that you have to run around and burn flags, but freedom of expression is part of what makes this country great. That includes the freedom to speak out against the government.

Additonally, when people are burning flags, it normally represents the system, not the vets who have died to protect our freedoms. You have to take it in context.

I think its worse that we promised vets free health care for life (and some other stuff, but I cant think of it) and decided to take it back.I think its disrespectful that we let our veterans go homeless. There are many other things that are REAL that are disrespectful to our vets, and burning the flag is hardly one of them.

Our flag is, again, just a piece of cloth. Are we are not a nation, if we dont have a flag?

Taking away the Vet's health insurance is despicable. Is it really for certain that is happening? This is an example of what I have been trying to say on the health care thread. No matter how well you plan, life can throw you a curve and it usually does.

Can't agree about the flag though. It's more than any old piece of cloth to me. Sure we'd be a nation even without a flag, but our flag is a tangible symbol of our country.

Sho 'nuff.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2002Nov19.html

excerpt:

Flag burning should NOT be legal

There is proper protocol for flag handling and displaying. If you want to display it over a sidewalk in downtown, the proper way depends on which way the street travels (north->south or east->west) There is a proper way to fold it. It should never touch the ground. There is protocol on how to display it on a wall, or in an auditorium. We have all these rules and regs, yet we're allowed to BURN the flag? A most grevious violation of everything the flag stands for, and the priciples behind the flag protocol.

For those who talk about freedom of expression, let me ask you this. The bald eagle is a protected bird. It also represents America and freedom like no other animal. If I were to shoot a bald eagle, and hang it's dead corpse from a pole, and put it on display for all to see in protest of our country's actions, would I be arrested or protected for freedom of speech?

It won't take a genius to figure out that i would be arrested. The flag can be protected the same way animals can. Just being able to type in these forums, how much we hate the gov't, is 20x more freedom than a lot of countries have. Protecting our flag will not infringe upon our right to do this.

--cheers

Is it disrespectful to "those who have died to protect the rights that we enjoy" for a country-western singer to wear a shirt made of the American flag? I've seen American flags on coasters and doormats. I agree with Madtown that the flag is more than just a piece of cloth - it is a very potent symbol. I would argue that those who feel moved enough to burn the flag respect that potency - far more than those who use it for wiping their feet or sopping their beer. And as for yodelling hicks sweating all over the stars and stripes to the sound of a steel guitar? What kind of respect is that?

But if you're arguing that flag-burning is disrespectful to those who died protecting our rights, how respectful is it to deny one of the very rights for which they've died? Doesn't that render their deaths rather meaningless?

Flag burning should NOT be legal
What punishment would you suggest they issue for anyone that does?

The bald eagle is a protected bird. It also represents America and freedom like no other animal. If I were to shoot a bald eagle, and hang it's dead corpse from a pole, and put it on display for all to see in protest of our country's actions, would I be arrested or protected for freedom of speech?

There are all kinds of endagered species that you cannot kill. It has nothing to do with free speech. Not to mention a bird is not an inanimate object.

Regardless, violent protest should be quashed. Riot's have destroyed cities and killed innocent people. Those people should be arrested and fined.

Bad analogy. As you mention yourself, the bald eagle is a protected species. The American flag is not a protected banner. Better analogy: If you were to burn George W Bush in effigy, would you be arrested or protected for freedom of speech? While it may not be the case for much longer, you would be protected, lest your freedom of expression be abridged.

You may argue that "the flag can be protected the same way animals can", but in point of fact, it is not. The flag could be so protected with the appropriate legislation - but as free speech is already protected, it might also require the appeal of the First Amendment - and I seriously doubt that's what you're advocating.

You know Wertz I mostly agree with you on this issue, but sometimes I think the first amendment thing just gets carried too far. I think they would be rolling in their graves at someone burning the flag and being protected by the first amendment. Is it really what our founding fathers invisoned? I wonder.

I'm not so sure, MOUSE. I think some of our more boisterous forefathers would have been the first to burn the Union Jack in protest.

Your comment reminded me of a letter from a Tory, John Hopkins, living in Savannah, who got tarred and feathered by some members of the Sons of Liberty for being loyal to the crown.

You can read a reproduction of his letter to Lord Dartmouth in England ratting out the Sons of Liberty here

I think if they would go so far as to tar and feather a real live person, they probably wouldn't have much trouble burning the flag

ACCORDING To the american flag code in which i am a strong supporter in is only to show respect thos is the was you are suppse to burn it.

1. cut the union ( blue ) from the flag

2. burn the portion of the flag with respects ( HATS OFF other american flag may be present )

3. honor the flag ( say the preamble, or alligence )

4. NEVER BURN THE UNION

Save the union so you can commeriate the even you just did. I GET P***** off when other countrys burn the flag disrespectifully

I have to say that you have all convinced me that burning the flag should not be illegal, but I still don't like it. It's done for attention so I wish the news media wouldn't pick up on it.

Even though burning the flag is not illegal I've known cases where the flag burner has been arrested for something like "dangerous behavior." Since burning the flag is not illegal, another way is found to arrest the jerk and that's fine with me.

MT

here is an excellent website on flag burning, in case anyone cares:

http://www.esquilax.com/flag/

Oh! I didn't mean to imply that they wouldn't burn someone else's flag ! Sorry if I gave that impression. My point was that our country and therefore the flag meant so much to them. However, they were tough characters so I may be way wrong. I am reading another biog. on T. Jefferson. I have read biog. of most of the founding fathers. Even the less know ones were great and interesting men of vision. Theadore I am half through and Colin Powell is sitting on the shelf. As I said to someone else earlier. The time I spend enjoying myself here is cutting into my reading time.

Has anyone read Stupid White Men ...and Other Sorry Excuses for the State of the Nation! ? If so what is the verdict?

Hey I know that feeling! I should be reading Terrorism and War by Howard Zinn.

Also, although I havent read Moores Stupid White Men, I did go and see Bowling for Columbine. Which is a fabulous movie, but of course I would think that.

Free speech, sometimes, is little more than a myth.

- You can't slander
- You can't stand up in a movie theater and yell "FIRE"
- You can't tell airplane hijacking jokes in an airport.

As much sense as these laws make, they still take away ones freedom of speech. And we're talking speech in the literal sense of the word, not the more liberal interpretation that could mean expression.

I never hear anyone complain about THOSE laws as restricting our freedom of speech. So I don't think after a while, people would mind protecting the flag, the same way we protect movie-goers

--cheers

Free speech will probably mean different things to different people. But taking it in the context of what the Ammendment was designed to protect would be the freedom of dissent against ones government. To have a part in molding the way they are governed. Critisism of government must be allowed or people will be oppressed. It happens every time the people are forced to silently abide by the rule of those that hold the power and wealth. Regardless of the way they come into that power...simply electing our government would not be enough is not enough by itself.

Thats a nice web page and I agree with the fullest and tallest( is that a word ) respects of it

Madtown: I hope none of us implied that we like the burning of the flag. But I do like the fact that even so strong a protest as desecration of the flag is protected in this country (so far).

DP: Many of the freedoms defined in the Bill of Rights have been amplified, modified, and qualified by subsequent legislation and judicial rulings. The items you mention all entail either harming another person or potentially harming another person (or persons) - and all are addressed under separate laws. The burning of the flag is not. Indeed, the Supreme Court has upheld the right to desecrate the flag as "political speech". You may not feel it is right, but it is certainly a protected right - unless, perhaps, you're doing it in a movie theater or an airport.

And Danya is quite correct: flag desecration is exactly the sort of political action our Founders would've been most interested in protecting.

I wonder what the courts are going to say about McCain-Feingold?

What does that have to do with a Flag burning debate?

placing such a holy sacrosanct taboo on the flag reeks of nationalism, not patriotism. I like America in a lot of ways, but it's really just a subset of being a human, a citizen of the planet. To me the flag is no more than a convenient way to identify the various teams in the olympics!

Believe it or not, I think you should be allowed to burn the flag if you want to. It was upheld in the courts with Texas vs. Johnson in 1989, and United States vs. Eichman in 1990. And I think it falls under free speech, however twisted.



But to me, who has buried friends and veterans in flag draped caskets, it will never be a convenient way to identify countries at the olympics.

Those who support the government preventing flag burning and those who support McCain-Feingold are both supporting restrictions on "political" speech. Protecting political speech, not pornography, was the reason behind the 1st Amendment. The fact we allow flag burning, no matter how repulsive we find it to be, shows what a free country we live in. If political speech can be limited, near election day, we have taken one more step toward tyranny.

Thanks,Eeyore, for starting a new thread on this subject.

If we're talking about soft money from corporations, the problem may have statred long ago, in the years after the Civil War, when the Supreme Court ruled that corporations were considered to be "citizens" in as much as they were given the same rights and freedoms as individuals. This was not what Adam Smith envisioned, and it is one of the reasons there is so much corporate influence in politics today.

Rather than the McCain-Feinglod reform, I would prefer we took up the issue of what corporate charters are really for, as this could be a healthier way to reform campaign financing and help in many long-term problems in other areas...

Where in the Constitution does it say that some Americans can't be un-American, freedom speech, let them burn their flags, say there little catch phrases and laugh at them, no big deal. Your exacally right.

CP

Just to add a bit to my comments from before...

I still think people should be allowed to burn the flag.

Sure, it shows their stupidity, and their lack of respect for the thousands who have died for our country, but it is their right.

I am, however, a strong proponent of using current law to discourage flag burning.

If you burn a flag in a public place, you should be arrested for public endangerment, disturbing the peace, littering, and potentially arson.

Not that I am a big fan of hate crime legislation, but technically, I think this could fall under that as well. There are certain words that, when said, constitute a hate crime because they have been deemed offensive and hurtful to specific groups of people. Well, burning the flag is offensive and hurtful to me. HATE CRIME! (extreme example to prove a point, hate crime legislation is bogus).

Mike

While slander may be the exception in this case, I see a distinct difference between flag burning and either yelling "FIRE" in a movie theater, or joking about hijackings in an airport.
I'm all for free speech and I support the rights of Americans (regardless of whether it's disrespectful) to burn our flag in protest, if they so choose. I do agree with Mike, however, in regards to charges being brought against those who do so recklessly in public -- the charges being those of, say, arson, littering or public endangerment.
Similarly, yelling "FIRE" or discussing hijackings in an airport goes beyond the issue of free speech and endangers public citizens. Burn the flag if you so choose -- it's your right as an American -- but do so responsibly and in a way that isn't likely to harm others. Also, be prepared for dissenting views... which also happen to be a constitutional right.