Um, no you are the ones bringing up the innocent argument initially. The burden of proof must come from those using the argument. Next.

Right here:

http://www.fguide.org/Bulletin/cappun.htm

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=412&scid=6

"Since 1976, over 100 people have been released from death row based on newly discovered evidence of their innocence - almost 13% of the number executed!"

Arguing that DNA evidence erases the possibility that the wrong person could be put to death for a crime he didn't commit is ridiculous. I can think of hundreds of plausible scenarios where DNA evidence could prove someone was at the scene of a crime, but not prove the person actually commited the act, but the person could still be convicted and sent to death row if the jury believes the person had motive to commit the act.

Your arguments are grounded in emotion which don't tread was kind enough to admit, but the two links above should disprove almost all of your arguments from any sort of logical stance.

ONE false death in a capital punishment case is reason enough to exclude the law. I'll ask this question again, even though it already has been asked and ignored... How do you justify that one death? The comfort of the relatives of the victim seems to be the best argument I've heard...?

Those are exonerations, not people who were found innocent after being put to death.



That is your opinion. Do not state it like it is fact.

It's called justice.

I truly don't think you want to protect the innocent people who could be put to death, it's more about going easy on the criminals.

So what happens when we can prove without any doubt a person killed another in 1st Degree. You would still oppose it so the whole argument of innocent people is really a moot point.

How about this:
FATAL FLAWS: INNOCENCE AND THE DEATH PENALTY IN THE USA









Now was Coleman innocent or guilty? I don't know, will we know? No because now that he is dead the case is closed.

Now a quote regarding our appellate courts.

I truly don't think you care about justice and whether someone is guilty or innocent, it's more about enjoying seeing people die.

Does that sound right? No? So stop putting heinous words into other peoples' mouths.



You are quite wrong. Dayton Rocker, for example, has explicitly stated that he is not opposed in principle to the death penalty; he does, however, have the sense to realize that it is not always (or perhaps even often) that guilt can be proven 100%.

On the other hand, I am opposed to the death penalty on principle.

Regardless, you are using flawed logic. Let us use, as an example, the war in Iraq. You may support it. You may have multiple reasons to support it. Let's just say we were debating the existence of WMDs, and I said, there are none. BUT, if I could prove there are no WMDs, you would still be for the war. So, I could say that the issue of WMDs is moot. The fallacy, however, lies in the fact that our opinions are not often built upon a single foundation. I could look at each of your reasons for supporting the war and declare them moot - because absent each reason alone, you would still support the war. In such a case, you would likely call my declaration of the particular issue as moot a fatally flawed statement. I am merely doing the same thing. You cannot dismiss part of a structure just because it is not the only thing holding up the rafters of opinion, sleeper.

Since your argument on this subject is more emotional than rational (evidenced by your insistence, in the face of the obvious, that everyone on my side of the debate secretly wants to be "soft" on criminals), I will present you with an emotional appeal: what if you or your loved one was framed for a murder? What if you were convicted? What if you were given the death penalty? What if you knew you were innocent? Gee, too bad you didn't get life in prison - now you will never see your kids again! And when the evidence of your innocence comes to light 15 years from now, shucks, it'll be too late! Oh well, it was done in the name of justice, right? Right?

The Dalai Lama: "My overriding belief is that it is always possible for criminals to improve and that by its very finality the death penalty contradicts this. Therefore, I support those organizations and individuals who are trying to bring an end to the use of the death penalty ... I wholeheartedly support an appeal to those countries who at present employ the death penalty to observe an unconditional moratorium. At the same time we should give more support to education and encourage a greater sense of universal responsibility. We need to explain the importance of the practice of love and compassion for our own survival and to try to minimize those conditions which foster murderous tendencies, such as the proliferation of weapons in our societies. These are things even private individuals can work towards. "

I dismiss this premiss because any of my loved ones that I care about do not associate with or would be around people that they could EVER be in this situation. Plus you are appealing to emotion, I thought we couldn't do that

And if I ever committ murder in the 1st degree, I would be slime and deserve to die.

Bravo Quarkhead, you articlulated that better than I could have...

Here are few Stats about the wrongfully accused...hopefully they'll "hold water" for all...

17 death row inmates were exonerated 13 of those by a team from Northwestern University. Governor Ryan subsequently suspended all death row cases, and introduced several reforms

Govern Ryan's Address

(a good bit of information: has lots of facts included in it..such as 12 states have abolished the death penalty and in none of these states has the homicide rate increased)

102 of such cases have occurred nationally.

"Flaws in the capital punishment system have led to wrongful convictions and death sentences in 102 cases nationally, including 13 in Illinois"

Exonerated to Appeal to Illinois Gov. Ryan

Hope this enlightens some of the previous inquiries...

Sleeper, many of those exonerated were found not to be people who associated with someone that could put them in the situation they found themselves in. They were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, or slightly resembled the person police were looking for.

We have released 112 people convicted of capital crimes since 1973. That's a fact. It's also a fact that we know of more that are moving through the system as we speak, that have yet to be exonerated, but may be, in the coming months and years. And the wrongful conviction of these 112 means that the real killer, in each of these cases has gone free.

When the families of the victims find out that the man they were told was guilty, is really innocent, that the killer of their loved one is still free somewhere, do you really believe that they think justice has been served? Do you think they would find justice served if they found out an innocent man was executed?

And don't try to tell me these exonerations are a sign that the system works. The innocence of many death-row prisoners was discovered only because outsiders went to great time and expense to investigate when the courts would not. Students at Northwestern University working with a journalism professor, David Protess, found the evidence that exonerated 3 of those on death row in Illinois.

No system that requires college students, or reporters working on their own time, to prove someone's innocence can be called a functional Justice System. And of course, there is no way to know for sure how many innocent people have been executed, because those already executed can't search for someone to prove their case.

But, you know as well as I do, that we've already executed people for crimes they didn't commit, don't you? We just don't know their names - yet. It's simple logic, do the math. Over 770 people have been put to death in this country in the past 25 years. And for every seven killed, one has been exonerated. With an error rate that high, do you really think every mistake was caught? Are you really willing to bet an innocent life on it?

Or, is it time to call the death penalty the failure it is? Time to make life in prison without possibility of parole the harshest punishment? That way, even if we make a mistake, or it's found that the conviction was due to prosecutorial misconduct, you can at least give the man his freedom, and what's left of his life back. Hard to do that if he's alread dead.

I have a lot of reasons to believe I'm right. A hundred and twelve of them, in fact.

Sleeper, if these numbers, and those of the others that have posted here, aren't enough, what is? We've shown that nearly 15% of the total number of those facing execution, have been exonerated. If that is an acceptable number to you, when does it become unacceptable?

For me, 15% is far too high. And it has nothing to do with being "soft" on crime. It has everything to do with doing the right thing for those who are truly not guilty of any crime, other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I know that stats have now been provided, but I couldn't let this one go. Why is it the responsibility of anyone but the person making a claim to do research. I don't need to disprove your point until you've proven it!