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heart
I like the way the Netherlands handled it. They legalized everything. It took about two years for everythone to get used to it all. Then the drug use started to go down, and more people started seeking treatment. There will always be a few people who will abuse drugs or alchohol (or their brain chemistry is such that a strong bond is formed and they become addicted, however you believe it), but those people are going to do this anyway and we should take all of the glamour out of it, take all of the secretiveness out of it and make it unattractive by culture, not by law.
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amf
QUOTE(heart @ Mar 18 2004, 12:27 PM)
I like the way the Netherlands handled it.  They legalized everything.  It took about two years for everythone to get used to it all.  Then the drug use started to go down, and more people started seeking treatment.

I think that works better when you have universal health care, so that people can GET the help they need.

In fact, I'd wager that drug use in this country would also fall if we put more money into treating drug addiction than building prison space to house small-time users.

But making illicit drugs univerally available to all is like handing out handguns to anyone who wants one and expecting that the murder rate would get better. It just doesn't work that way.
mopar
I haven't been here in quite a while and haven't read all of the previous pages but the answer to the question about "still" needing the "drug war" is an absolute NO. We don't need it now and we never did. As with alcohol, there were few if any problems with "drugs" before prohibition II. I've seen ads that say "drugs fund terrorism" to the contrary; "prohibition funds terrorism". I should be able to put into MY body what I so choose, freely and lawfully. Is there a law against drinking gasoline? I think not. It is quite ironic that substances that kill people are legal while those that don't are not. A good example can be made of aspirin and cannabis; people can overdose and die from aspirin but not from cannabis. Where is the logic in this? John Kerry has a forum and on that forum are several threads about the "war on drugs", marijuana legalization, medical marijuana, etc. some of you may find some interest in these threads. There is a wealth of information and opinions there. Here are the links:

Closed threads:
Issues and Solutions to the War of Drugs
Other Issues Archive
Pages: 63
Replies:934
Views:16607

Issues and Solutions to the War on Drugs Volume 2
Other Issues Archive
Pages: 25
Replies:362
Views:6389

Marijuana Decriminalization Volume #3
Other Issues Archive
Pages: 26
Replies:379
Views: 7367

Marijuana Decriminalization Volume #4
Other Issues
Pages: 25
Replies:370
Views: 6240

Current Threads:
Marijuana Decriminalization, volume 5, begin 4/3/04

Medical Marijuana and States Rights, Where does Kerry stand?

War on Illicit Drugs, Terrorism, Crime & Solutions

Agricultural Hemp

Apparently Mr. bush doesn't have an open forum, if he did I'd certainly pay a visit!
TommyGriswold
QUOTE(Joeblow @ Mar 14 2004, 10:03 PM)
Hi, Does anyone on here have a problem with Meth in your state? We have big problem with Meth and it's getting out of control.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4489307/


                                                                    Thanks, Joe.

Yes, We have a huge problem with meth amongst youth in Texas. A lot of my friends do meth and I think it's fair to say it is out of control.
ChronicAaro
QUOTE(christopher @ Jan 24 2004, 12:54 AM)
The joke that is referred to as the war on drugs is unwinnable and always will be.
There will be points where there is decline but the demand will always remain.
The desire of many people for substances to alter their reality is almost as old as humanity itself.
There are far too many people who do not see drugs as evil nor immoral. Generally this is put forth by those who desire to force others to see the world their way.
The War creates far more casualties than it does any good. It used as the rational for allowing the government to take even more freedoms from us.
We are filling up prisons to very dangerous levels. Creation and institutional hatred of our police. The justice system is unjust in exactlt who serves time and who doesn't.
Most important is that those who propagate the need for this War on Drugs themselves prop up some of the most evil and vile members of humanity. They allow the inflated prices of these drugs to create Empires of Terror and the Self proclaimed Lords of these Cartels increase their influence through the use of terrorist activities. Murder, kidnappings, rape, assasinations, corruption of government and military institutions.
This money is used to finance Terrorists worldwide.

The war on drugs is an abyssmal failure that needs to be ended soon for the good of humanity.

I couldn't agree anymore. Everyone has been programed to think evil when they hear the word drugs. Unless its one of the thousands of drugs everyone munches on that come from a pharmacy. If people want to harm themselves, let them. You can't outlaw everything that can cause harm(how about guns?), or make laws that imply that we are too stupid to take responsibility for our own well-being. It would all end if they legalized and regulated the illegal market. There is no way the government can eliminate the demand for drugs. As long as this demand exists people will supply. The people who supply are going to make the users pay for the risk they are taking(prison...) when they buy it, transport it, sell it, and deal with shady people. Not to mention the laws allow you to take something of very little value and turn it into a product that sells for ridiculous amounts of money. I know drugs won't be legalized, at least not for a very long time, but legalization, just like prohibition in the 30s, will destroy the value as it did to alcohol(Al Capone),and incentive to distribute a product since now it has a value 10% of what it was on the black market. Additionally if it were regulated like cigarettes or alcohol, children would have a much more difficult time acquiring drugs(from 7-11 not your buddy Fred), and people wouldn't die from impure product. The majority of heroin users die from the impurities not the effect of the drug on their bodies. The prison population is insanely out of control and our prisons are filled with non-violent offenders. You shouldn't let out the rapists and thieves to make room for people who did nothing to any other citizen to cause them harm. Legalization sounds crazy due to our social programming yet its a very easy solution.
1Bit
QUOTE(Julian)
The wars on drugs or terrorism aren't going to cut the funding to groups like al-Quaeda. Read your commercial history books - if you want to do that, the best way is to legalise them. How long would it be before hard-pressed US or European farmers in suitable areas (say, New Mexico, Texas, Spain, etc) started growing opium poppies, or Caribbean plantations struggling with banana quotas would plant lots of coca?

Sure, there's an occasional horror story from the front line of our "war" on drugs. That is to be expected so long as we keep refusing to deal with addiction as a disease rather than as a crime. But, these stories would pale in comparison to the horrors that would be unleashed if we were to legalize the free trade of hardcore narcotics. It would be as bad as legalizing the free trade of smallpox.
QUOTE(Julian)
Fighting the war on drugs by using guns on their home ground seems a little silly to me, when we know from history that if we just unleash the forces of global capitalism against them, a war which the West has never managed to lose, we'd put them out of the global terror business within a year.

The west may dominate the world economy but we are far from undefeated. We have lost a lot to overseas competition. So, rather than unleashing capitalism against the drug lords, we'd be unleashing them into global capitalism. Since they already dominate the underground markets, they would be the first ones in line to dominate the commercial markets. If we spent a fraction of what we spend funding corrupt foreign armies on drug rehab programs here, they would loose a lot of power and maybe we'd see some real political changes in those countries.
QUOTE(Julian)
Quite apart from the fact the Western governments could then start to tax the huge revenues of the drug trade, since it would then be part of the legitimate economy. Of course, it would create some health problems, but the commercial standardisation that would come with legality would also remove those caused by diluting cocaine with Drain-o.

If hardcore narcotics ever became a hugh part of our economy, quality control would be the very least of our concerns.
QUOTE(Julian)
It all just boils down to how badly do we want to win, and do we want to fight on our terms, or theirs?

Don't you get it? It's not a "win" or "loose" campaign. There will always be drugs in the world and there will always be people who are willing to take them- out of sheer curiosity if anything else. We should always make an effort to educate people about the dangers. But, above all else, drug production, distribution and abuse must remain illegal.

That said, all the bad drug laws that were created over the last twenty five or so years entirely for political gain need to be amended or abolished- especially possession. Possession should be reduced to a misdemeanor and anyone found with drugs should be subject to nothing more than search and seizure. No arrest, no bail and no jail unless they are clearly addicted and/or under the influence.
ducks13
You might want to rethink your idea that the alcohol and cigarette industries are responsible for drug prohibition. I think the law enforcement and the field of phycology have a much more vested interest in continued prohibition, especially marijauna.

QUOTE(FhB420 @ Feb 14 2004, 10:20 PM)
How would legalizing marijuana help the economy of the United States of America? I think it would help in several ways. Just as much money as America gets on Tobacco and Alcohol from taxes it could make from marijuana. Instead of farmers getting 139 an acre for corn they would make 319 an acre for hemp. It takes 20-100 years to grow a tree to make several pieces of wood while it would take 8 months to a year to grow a stronger more durable plant. This would save the rainforests which could be substantial to the medical world. Many new medicines are being found in the rainforest as we speak.

Another way is lowering the death rate. Millions die from alcohol, millions die from tobacco. No one has ever died from marijuana. And no one means ZERO. Directly or indirectly. Marijuana helps you faces problems and concentrate more and also think outside the box, as alcohol turns you into a raging alcoholic and turns you away from your problems. Tobacco is addictive, physically and mentally, as marijuana is not. I have smoked pot for years and have been off and on (sometimes its difficult to get pot) and have never gone through withdrawal. As is tobacco, I see people go 2 hours without a cigarette and they start going through ashtrays looking for shorts. Lowering the death rate would give the government more taxes also. It would be the recreational drug of choice versus alcohol. The facts are all there, but the government continues to cover it up with bogus studies and lies. Why? Because the Tobacco lobby and Alcohol lobby BOTH pay them to keep marijuana illegal.

My question to everyone is this: If my smoking marijuana hurts only myself... why should it be illegal? Why should I be thrown in prison for something I did to myself that is no worse than smoking a cigarette? I could smoke a pack of cigarettes a day or just 2 joints a day. Why should a stoner be thrown into a cell with a rapist? Why do rapists get shorter sentences than that of a marijuana user? Its my choice what I do with my body, right? Should hairspray be illegal because it kills my brain cells? Or walking outside into polluted atmosphere be illegal because its harming my lungs? The whole drug war is money money money. But that money thats being spent on it could go towards food for the hungry, or medical packages for those who can't afford their hospital bills. Marijuana is also a great plant for medicines. Our money.gif is going towards fighting it and their losing this war on drugs. Put the taxes back into the hands of the American people.

Which would you prefer? Your kids/spouse drinking and driving or at home stoned and raiding the fridge or falling asleep. This law isn't up to us, it's up the how much money the government gets for it.

Truthful Liberty

Edited to make text black

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ducks13
The idea that everyone that does drugs wants treatment is questionable. It seem to me that the idea of drug treatment is more of an Orwellian idea. We will change you so you don't do what we don't like. Free people don't have to change if they do not wnat to. I am assuming that people are born free without goverments to regulate them.


QUOTE(amf @ Feb 25 2004, 12:39 PM)
So I've read multiple pages of you guys arguing about pot and I'm completely bored with it.  It's off track on the topic.  We have a large segment of the African-American community in jail for possessing small amounts of crack, we have millions spent in Columbia and other South/Central American countries fighting the drug lords.

The question is: do we need the war on drugs?  Pot isn't the target, really.  It's all the other stuff: PCP, cocaine, heroin, etc. that are wasting our tax dollars thru eradication and imprisonment.  Is this the right way to attack the problem?  You can't legalize these drugs and make drug use "better" somehow.

We're fighting the war by fighting with certain suppliers and -- not always related -- certain users.  Instead of fighting with them, why aren't we trying something different?  Instead of prison for drug users, how about institutes that help them detox and get back their lives?  Instead of prison for drug runners, how about we try something else (like put them in charge of FedEx deliveries  smile.gif )?  The way we're fighting this war now isn't working. 

Focusing on pot isn't going to get to the root of the problem.  Legalizing everything won't make it better either, since that's like making guns available to anyone who wants one.
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Jaime
ducks13 - please avoid double posting. If you were the last person to post and want to add more, you simply need to edit your last post. Also, please do not post one-liners. They are not constructive. Thanks. smile.gif

TOPIC:
Do we still need the war on drugs?
nileriver
despite anything that can be said, thanks to the war on drugs, we no longer have drugs in america lol. I dont think it works, i think the war on drugs give credit to this itself. The advent of the legal drug market may aim to get the middle class of certain forms of dope, like all the commercials selling happy pills these days. Basically it was a neat tool to imprison poor people and make ways to get tax money for the most part, also it allowed us to go into other nations. I still dont grasp how i can get legal drugs that are more harmful then various illegal ones though, i guess its always nice to live in something were certain individuals get to grant the reality you live in, like putting the fate of a nation in one persons hands, i imagine this gets worse when they are dumb.

I would make everything legal, that is me though, i mean we already have legal drugs, and i dont see everyone useing them, then we can use the tax money spent on the drug war for something else, and cut taxes with the money from regulated drugs. I mean if this is the land of freedom, we should show that, a free system lol. i dont think the nazis will stand for it though, they will find someway to flex themselves on you, they always do for the most part, nothing new there.

I mean right next to the big oil labs, we could have big meth labs lol, i think it would be one of those kodak moments really. Truly though, the war on drugs is not winning nor will it ever, even if you start to just kill people the government of some group dubs criminals, like various nations do, it still wont go away, this is also evident, so i just see it as a waste and an way to make a police state and enforce a face for the system.
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