Franken Tackles Heckler

Ignoring the yellow tinge of this article, Franken's action of tackling a heckling person at a Dean rally brings up an important issue regarding the freedom of speech.

Franken's action is clearly a physical assault.

However, the heckler was using speech assault to stop speech.

Question for debate:

Should hecklers at free speech events be arrested and charged with speech assault?

Alternative question:

Should hecklers at free speech events be allowed to do their thing as free speech (protesting)?

And if you're of the mind, should Franken be slapped in jail for physical assault?

Thanks to Venom for bringing this to our attention.

Yeah, doing some research on this one, I'm not so sure it happened exactly the way that the NY Post says it did. I mean, let's face it, at a Dean rally in NH the day before the primary, did only ONE newspaper -- and a scandal-rag at that -- see it this way? And if Franken really did attack this person, why wasn't he charged with assault?

Ok, closer to the truth of the matter: LaRouche supporters disrupt Democrats





.....

Anyway, back to the questions you posed.

You ever see a heckler within 100 yards of Bush? Nope. They get arrested if they get too close. And then released later. Supposedly for "security" reasons. All you have to do is hold up a negative sign along his travel route and you'll get arrested before he ever gets close enough to find out that not everything is wonderful in this here land. In Atlanta, they brought out four busses to block Bush's view of the folks protesting against his visit to MLK's grave. If anyone tried to move from the "designated free speech area", they were immediately arrested... and then later quietly released without charges being pressed.

No such thing as "speech assault". There are other charges, like "making a public nuisance", "assembling without a permit", etc., which can be used just the same.

In general, though, security removing people for being disruptive happens all the time in bars and concerts. Public venues that are sort-of privately being used. Which is what the rally was. This wasn't an open-air park with an unscheduled event; it was a room in a private or public facility, rented or donated to the Dean campaign for that rally. As such, removing hecklers is well within their rights.

But claiming that Franken body-slammed someone makes a better headline.

Yeah I was so excited about this show of stupidity by Franken I neglected to add my question. If this wasn't some publicity "satire" stunt I would hope the person who was assulted files a lawsuit. I fail to see how Franken thought he was protecting free speech by prohibiting it?! Franken is a loose cannon who has gone over the line. If the protestor was way out of line leave it to the police to ask him to stop or leave. Franken had no right to do what he did.

Whatever the real story is, I have to take issue with this Franken quote. Free speech does not mean you can say whatever you want without consequences. Free speech merely means that the government will not stop you. Getting "shouted down" is simply someone else exercising their very same right to free speech. Now, since more or less, this was a private venue, they had every right to escort him out.

Venom,

Did the heckler have a right to do what he (I'm making a gender assumption here) did?

I say no. Heckling is a means to shut people up, and just as this board maintains levels of civil discourse, so should we do so in other venues. Else you get just what has been described--physical solutions to intellectual problems.

If Franken did indeed tackle this person, then he is in the wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Venom:

I fail to see that as well.

Franken:

Exactly, and if indeed he tackled the person, his method of defending free speech is wrong although the essence is right on

Let me clarify, this is what I said:



We have seen no details of what took place, however unless the protestor was being physical Franken was out of line period! If he was simply shouting small things out once in awhile I see no need to shut him up, however if he was carrying on without stopping then the police have to ask him to leave or arrest him. If he was simply disagreeing, or pointing out flaws in Deans speech with a few outbursts I think he has every right to do so. We see this happen at Bush events all the time and nothing is done!

Strictly speaking, Franken is guilty of assault. Will it be prosecuted? Highly unlikely. If it is, any prosecution beyond a misdemeanor would be wrong. A certain amount of hurlyburly in politics takes place, and a zero tolerance policy would be both impractical and counteproductive to political discourse.

The quoted source is just as "yellow", if not more so, than the NY Post. Franken's own words clearly indicate he did lot more than "helped carry out one of the disruptors."

BTW Amf, aside from gratuitous Bush bashing, what's the point of bringing Bush into this?

Not as gratuitous as you might think.

One of the debate questions is this:

Should hecklers at free speech events be allowed to do their thing as free speech (protesting)?

Given the penchant of the chief executive of the government to bar free speech at any of his events or along any road leading to his events... should hecklers of other politicians be treated differently?

I understand that hecklers are disruptive and can be removed from private events. However, can those participating in dignified dissent also be removed from public streets if not otherwise creating a disturbance?

Yes, they have just as much of a right to assemble as anyone else.Yes, he assaulted a man who was expressing himself. Al Franken, thank you for proving all of my criticisms about you right...Thank you Al, thank you.

CP

Sheesh, you know I come here when there is little or no active mature debates occurring where I mod a Current Events forum or when something big happened to see how people are reacting.

This is not a big occurrence it is an isolated incident we know as venom so elequontately put know nothing about. So why are we making a big deal about this?

Monty

The guy attacked somebody! He tackeled a man who, from what I understand, didn't do anything physical. Whether its going to be admitted or not is of no consequence, the man assaulted somebody...I wonder what the reaction would've been if Sean Hannity did this

CP

He might have been quoted as saying that he was a wrestler in the Post but that doesn't mean he body slammed anyone.

Or tackled them.

It seems like headlines are better when they are exxagerated.

Is there a reliable source, that we can have? something from the AP?

Monty

That was from the New York Post, emphasis mine.

CP

A Better Article, for this

Perhaps not as flashy, but then again CNN isn't trying to sell papers. franken is not being described as body slamming anyone, but helping a person leave.

Monty

Helping a person leave? Emphasis mine. A non-physical protestor is physically removed...Doesn't that seem a little extreme?

CP

Not when it has happened to me on many of occassions. It is the way the world works now of days.

Monty

A quote from Franken to the Post :He attacked the guy, he admits it, he assaulted the man, that should be that.

CP

Good for Al. I hate Hecklers. I don't see any first Amendment violation there.
Let him start his own debate. If anybody cares they'll come listen.
The first Amendment doesn't give you the right to inflict your veiws on others. Doesn't say anywhere that you also get any automatic credibility.

Christopher: No, but it also doesn't say that people expressing their freedom of speech can be ASSAULTED, and that's what Franken did.

CP

The First Amendment does not include the right to not get your behind whooped for being obnoxious. Gods, people are acting like this is such a big deal. Is Franken the first person ever to get into a fight with someone who wouldn't shut their mouth? It's one thing if this was some sort of police action, but it's not. The fact that this was a political event doesn't change anything. It's one guy being repeatedly asked to shut up, not doing so, and catching a beat-down. I say, what's the problem?

Apparently Venom has a different take on what happens at Bush's public appearances.

Also, you are deliberately conflating "hecklers" with "dignified dissenters" and attempting to turn this into an attack on Bush.

Since your own reminder doesn't seem to have taken, let me remind you again about the question:

Should hecklers at free speech events be allowed to do their thing as free speech (protesting)?

Hecklers may be a lot of things, but nobody will confuse them with "dignified dissenters."

Mind you, a large part of me agrees with Christopher, because I detest hecklers as well. Of course, I also detest Franken, who is little more than a remote heckler.

Looms, you are absolutely correct, it was NOT a first amendment violation, however, the man was attacked, Franken admitted to that. He attacked a man for voicing a dissenting view, the reason for the attack doesn't matter, an attack is an attack.

CP

That's exactly what I'm saying, the reason for the attack did not matter. It's one guy getting angry at another, and getting into a fight. The fact that it's Al Franken, and that it took place at a political rally does not change ANYTHING. Honestly, if I felt the need to go and heckle someone, I would assume that a certain amount of risk went along with it. A heckler tries to get people angry, a heckler tries to irritate. This is no different than if that guy got beaten down for yelling "Show me your boobs" to someone's girlfriend.

So if Bill O'Reilly took the legs out from under a greenpeace member that was heckling Bush at a rally, that would be acceptable and Bill would not loose any credibility?

A greenpeace member? I for one would applaud, assuming bodily injury was inflicted.

That's not the point though. The point is, everyone is human, and him getting into a fight does ZERO for or against his credibility at his job.

Actually, he didn't. Or do you REALLY consider the NY Post a respectable journalistic newspaper? Would you consider the AP report the rest of us have been reading more acceptable or just a leftist conspiracy to cover up what happened?

The reason I ask is that you're doing exactly what the Post is doing: blowing something out of proportion. Have you considered that the Post is the only paper to report about taking his legs out from under him? Perhaps that didn't really happen. Perhaps the Dean rally was otherwise dull and the reporter needed something else to fill space. And aliens didn't land at the event either, so that was out. Hard to know.

As for my other question I posted earlier: at what point is "heckling" just "dignified dissent" or vice-versa? Do you have to be obnoxious to be a heckler? Is there a different rule for dignified dissent vs. obnoxious dissent? Is a political event a place where dissent should be permitted? This is why the first amendment is for everyone. It's hard to know when you cross over the line and STILL need protection.

Or is this really just all about Franken in most people's eyes? And if so, what happened in the Martha Stewart trial today?

The reality is that it was a private event and Franken was assisting security with removing someone who was not wanted at the event. No big deal. No matter how breathless the Post makes it out to seem.

1.)Yes, if they want to speak their peace, they can go and organize their own event. No one has the right to interrupt others when they are speaking....period. Given this fact, they should be fully prosecuted.

2.)Yes, it is not Al Franken's job to protect the first amendment. The police or private security guards should have been there in the first place in order to bring order to the assembly.

3.)No, hecklers do not have the right to "do their thing" at an organized speech event set up by someone else. The constitution was never meant to protect that.

My question

-Other than one poster, why hasn't anyone else commented on the ridiculous standards of "free-speech" zones as set up by our president in dealing with protestors?? Does anyone out there feel that is in no way worse than what Franken did? If not, then please explain.

*****1600th post! Woo hoo!!!!!*****

AMF, saying that someone is lying is very easy to do...Proving that someone is lying on the other hand is more challenging. Prove to me that the NYPost is lying and that'll be fine, but otherwise, just saying that they could be doesn't do much. Yes, I do consider the Post credible, just as much as the times and the rest.

CP

As a ole buddy of mine used to say "They got a right to burn the flag, and I got the right to shoot 'em in the rear with buckshot." Free speech sometimes has negative consequences. Only when the government discourages it are constitutional issues in play. I'm starting to like Franken.

I've always been a little bit curious about the general question here--exactly when does verbal abuse cross the line, and simply become abuse? Should you be able to go up to someone and insult them to the 9's, and still have the right to demand justice when they retaliate in a physical way? I think things have gotten out of whack here, as people have lost the fear of retaliation their common sense of decency and respect seems to have left also. Perhaps a little more 'well, you had it coming' justice would be a good thing? For myself, I'm pretty thick skinned, but if someone is clearly 'asking for it', I'm not sure why I should be punished for giving it to them. Expecting the courts to rectify these issues is nonsensical--its too time-consuming and cumbersome a process. What other remedies are there?

No hes not the first to get into a fight with someone who "wouldn't shut their mouth", but Franken has time and time again said that he was a peaceful man and also claims he doesn't like vituperation. This proves that hes not all that peaceful and we have heard through many of his profanity filled rants that he LOVES vituperation. My point in all of this is that Franken is showing who he really is and can't be taken seriously like he is by many. I don't care how much these protestors ranted and raved he has no right to physically remove them!



I would say that the Post had a lot more substance relating to the assult. They have direct quotes. If Franken comes out and says that he never said those things then maybe it needs to be looked at, but he hasn't. The Post is not gonna publish false quotes. Could you also provide some proof that the Post is blowing this out of proportion. To do that I think you would have to prove that the Franken quotes are indeed false since he incriminates himself in them.

In regards to protestors of Bush events, he is the President of the United States and security is a concern. No one in thier right mind is gonna let thousands of angry protestors within striking range of him, however many anti-bush protests have been close enough to be heard and disruptive (just last week for the MLK celebration), and they have every right to do so.

I have never said I was against people protesting the President, so I don't know why some of you claim that I am. Jumping to conclusions maybe? Everyone has the right to protest peacefully, and if they get out of line thats what the police are for, not Al Franken!

Franken probably needs to take some oxycontin to calm himself down.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/1/27/94253.shtml

Tim Russert's just another flack for the Right, right? And too blind to differentiate between a press guy and security...

Hobbes,

Thanks for bringing up the line between verbalizing and abusing. In the context of this incident, I'd imagine the line comes when the heckler(s) raises enough noise to drown out the speaker. That's abusing the First Amendment. Seems the Dean crowd started a chant in retaliation. To me, that's an appropriate response.

I personally hate resorting to physical when the issue has to do with intellect. Haven't done that since grade school. It has no purpose and the results are never satisfying to anyone.

But I have lost my cool and blown up at folks. That's never pretty either. Getting better in my old age though

Regarding President Bush and his bubble, well, "bubble" says it all. I figure free speech stops at the bubble's demarcation.

One thing I'm finding entertaining is the vitriol toward Franken. I guess he symbolizes something highly irritating to a certain political faction. I'm not all that enamored with the guy, and he does seem to be getting full of himself. Maybe he'll take a step back and take a good look at what he's becoming?

Just another hot head with little control.

Ho-hum. Another day and another meaningless story.

Oh well. At least it gives the conservatives something to gnash their teeth about besides Michael Moore calling Dubya a "deserter." Now there's a really boring story!

All this righteous OUTRAGE and INDIGNATION would be a bit less tiresome if it weren't coming the exact same week when the Bush Administration's own hand-picked expert came forth to say he doubts the threat of WMD's in Iraq even existed.

It is just me or is that story just a BIT more important than Franken punking some LaRouche supporter? What's next? The effect of Ben and J-Lo's break-up on the presidential race?

Maybe all this tomfoolery is just Al Franken's way of jacking up his book sales. Naaaaah....

Eyewitness Accounts of Franken Event

It is amazing how fast many are to come to a conclusion based only on:

1. A report from the tabloid NY Post...
2. ...widely distributed by the Drudge Report.

For those interested in some factual reporting of the event, the above link paints an entirely different picture than the NY Post and gives a more complete account.


As to the question: Should Franken be slapped in jail for physical assault?
Not if you believe any of the eyewitness accounts reported above.


Before Franken helped to subdue the instigator, one of the witnesses reported:

--the instigator was screaming and out of control,
--the instigator shoved and elbowed two security guards, and
--elbowed and pushed the witness (who was the theater manager).

The theater manager stated, "I never met Al Franken before. He is now my new hero."

Another eyewitness, this from the Opinion Journal (WSJ).



The guy doesn't exactly sound like a Dean or a Franken supporter.

Where's that darn liberal major media when you need them?!? Oh yeah, they packed up and went home YEARS AGO!!!

Very true-the Post isn't exactly in the same category as the Times. If the "old gray lady" Is the leader of the print business, then the Post is the little twerp brother. Drudge isn't a "columnist" or a "journalist" in any sense of the word. Reporting other people's work doesn't make you the next Walter Lippman. There are differing accounts of this story. For all we know, Franken could've been shoved-there are two sides to every story.

Let's not forget Bikerdad's post that it was Tim Russert who took note of the incident.

again for emphasis...

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/1/27/94253.shtml

I think painting Franken's actions as heroic (as if the fellow he tackled was foaming at the mouth and brandishing a club) is hilarious

Franken did something rather silly, when I first heard it I though he might have been joking. Turns out is was just a dumb thing to do which may or may not reflect on his character. Dean should have had some security, this wasn't Franken's job and he made a fool of himself...

I would have liked video...

...but I promise not to jump on him till I get around to reading his book.

Let's see...eyewitness accounts previously mentioned have the instigators:

1. screaming
2. out of control
3. shoving
4. elbowing
5. pushing

From additional eyewitness reports below we can add:

6. threatening to jump/fall out of a theater balcony
7. scaring witnesses
8. barrelling through like a Patriots fullback
9. alarming witnesses
10. acting as though they might attack a presidential candidate

Excerpt:

“I thought he was going to jump. He was screaming at Dean. I was scared for a minute that he was going to jump on the stage and attack Dean,” Ramsey said.

One New Hampshire voter sitting in the balcony said the heckler “kind of barreled through like a Patriots fullback.”

Wendy Branch of Northwood said. “Even if he didn’t intend to jump, he was setting himself up for a fall. It was a little alarming.”

Eyewitness Accounts of Franken Incident


But you still need mouth foaming and a club? Are you serious?

I do believe it should be everyone's responsibility to protect both candidates, current and retired political officials. Even perhaps, Presidential Candidates.

I think that many of the conservatives that have replied in this topic are being completely ridiculous. Perhaps, you need to take a better look at what is going on. I do not think the Post account even comes close to the actual occurance of what happened. As eye witness reports show it in a much different light.

Monty

As a matter of fact, from the post Scmed has listed, Franken was assaulted first:



So it appears that Franken was reacting to being hit first, and not just gratuitously grabbing and hitting someone.

Personally, I don't really have a problem with what Franken did, especially if he was pushed or attacked in some way first. I read today that none of the Democratic Party's candidates for President have requested Secret Service protection although it is available to the lead candidates. Lieberman has it because he's had Captial Police protection since his run for VP in 2000.

I don't see Franken's actions in any sort of partisan light either. I bet that had Dennis Miller, say, been in the same situation, he'd have probably acted in a similar fashion.

While there certainly doesn't appear to be any problem in seeking the truth of what happened at the event, let's remember to stick to the questions posed for debate:

• Should hecklers at free speech events be arrested and charged with speech assault?
• Should hecklers at free speech events be allowed to do their thing as free speech (protesting)?
• And if you're of the mind, should Franken be slapped in jail for physical assault?

I'm personally unclear as to what is meant by "free speech events" in this particular case. In a rally specifically intended for a candidate and his or her supporters I think officials would (or should) have legal grounds for removing hecklers who seek to disrupt the event. Should they be especially disruptive I can see even having them arrested... though I would see it for other reasons than "speech assault," since I'm not sure that's an actual crime.

In "free speech events" where officials of the state or otherwise are simply giving a public speech I think protesters and hecklers have a right to voice their opinion so long as they do so within the extent of the law (i.e. not physically assaulting anyone).

In light of numerous eye witness testimonies I would say that Franken should not be arrested for or charged with physical assault. The publicity for him may be negative regardless of the circumstances, but it appears more and more as though his actions were justifiable.

All right we've had a couple of seemingly conflicting stories, so I looked into to it.

Descriptions of the incident: Let's try a well known source.
CNN has no threatening to jump from the balcony, apparently they didn't think it was important to mention.

Note Franken was not responding to being bumped into and having his glaces broken. It happened during the tussle. (amf posted this early in the debate)
LaRouche supporters disrupt Democrats

"The Boston Herald" (I'm not familiar but I'm guessing it leans right, heck if we can believe the LA Times...)


Franken fights back vs. Dean dissenter
and.. "The Washington Times"

Franken clashes with Dean heckler

So there you have it. Franken was not responding to an assault of his person. Franken was responding to a rowdy member of a group that shouldn't have been there. I don't believe hecklers should be allowed to disrupt events, removing them should be left to security however.

Because the heckler was acting improperly I don't believe Franken acts were criminal, just silly. The police don't think charges are totally out of the question, but I think they're just keeping the options open.

As for heroics, if this guy bumped two security guards they should have handeled it.

Abs,

I didn't define terms, but feel free to do so.

To me, a "free speech event" involves people gathering together to hear a speaker. The speaker has the floor for a speech and might do Q&A afterwards.

"Speech assault" is not a crime. Should it be? Or does "disrupting the peace" cover it?

I frankly think heckling is the worst form of protest. I'd like to see it made a crime, a misdemeanor where sentence could take several forms.

1) Forced to listen to recorded speeches of the victim for a number of hours
2) Forced to write several supporting letters to the editor about the victim
3) Forced to publicly apologize for the assault and then listen to citizens (victim's supporters) heckle during the apology--on national prime-time TV
4) Forced to mow the victim's lawn or some such work for a number of weeks or months (could shovel my steep driveway, but alas, I have no hecklers)
5) Forced to wear victim's campaign buttons and put victim's bumper stickers (say 20 of them) on own vehicle--on the paint

As usual, I'd like to have fun with this.

BTW (and off subject), Buddy Jesus is just too cool! So is the movie (Dogma).

Well, I hate to contradict you with yet another eyewitness account, but this should put the whole matter to rest once and for all.

Excerpt of interview with Peter Ramsey, CEO and manager, Palace Theater:

As he got to the back, the guy started flicking his arms and hit Franken. I saw that happen. He hit two or three others, he was pushing people and he pushed probably six people and with his elbows he probably hit two or three, and Franken pushed him out the door with probably four or five other men. The guy was fighting the whole way. ... Honestly, as I saw it, Al Franken reacted to being struck pretty violently.

Additionally, you told the Union-Leader that a news photographer had told you Franken had been struck.

... I saw the guy strike Franken and I saw Franken help push the guy to the side. The guy was totally out of control, and what made me mad afterwards was when they got to the alley the two guys high-fived. The guy upstairs stopped when he realized there were no cameras out there.


As far as whether or not charges should be filed, however, Mr. Ramsey said that he believes that they should. "The guy should have been arrested." Of course, he was talking about the instigator. When specifically asked about assault charges being filed against Franken, he replied, "That's absurd."

Interview With Eyewitness Peter Ramsey


As to the question: Should assault charges be filed against Franken? Of course not. That would be silly.

Though I don't presume to call this guy's story untrue considering other sources that are just as credible seem to run a bit contrary, I don't assume this is the definitive word. Of course Franken's site would put on the most positive spin. CNN and Tim Russert don't seem to have a dog in the fight so I think their stories should be considered as well.

I agree that charges are probably unnecessary because this protester was getting physical with the crowd. The police don't seem to think it totally out of the question, though. I doubt it will happen (and I'm sure Franken would win the case), but it is possible.

That, I think, is the operative term there. Given that the guy WASN'T at the back to start with, and he had refused to relocate, and that Franken admitted to TACKLING THE GUY, and then they CARRIED HIM OUT, gee, he struggled, an poor widdle Franken got hit.

Russert is the most credible account, simply because, as noted, he's got no dog in the fight, AND he's a trained journalist. I'm SURE that the manager of the venue is going to characterize somebody who disrupts the event as meek and mild.

An excerpt from the eye witness account:



Let's see, if Franken is on a platform, 5 ft above the rest of the floor, the heckler must stand, what, about 11 - 12 ft., right?

Franken wouldn't have been elbowed if he hadn't placed himself in the situation. Would you at least agree that he placed himself IN that situation?

Shouldn't he have allowed security to handle the matter?

If Franken was concerned about Dean being hurt, he could have jumped on stage and just protected Dean. Instead, he got involved in a brawl. HE made the first move, not the heckler.

Now, I believe the heckler should have been removed. I don't like hecklers. I believe these hecklers were trying to squelch free speech. But Franken did not have to get involved. He placed himself IN that position.