http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/30/national...&partner=GOOGLE

Okay I saw this article and had to post it! The state assemblyman Lelan Y Yee is a Chinese-American from where else? That's right San Fransisco.

He is purposing that California update it's building codes to include Feng Shui (pronounced Fung Shway appropriately). This is an old East Asian practice that is considered spiritual but is in acctuality religious in it's own interpretation and nature. It is the practice of placement of doors, stairways, paintings, colors etc in places so as to exact the proper amount of energy from everything and at the same time has no energy hindering any other energy in the room or domicile or wherever .

This practice realies on East Asian "philosophies" or in my opinion religions... I'm not going to play games here... traditional Buddhism is not a philosophy, it's a religion.

religion: NOUN: 1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

Anyways, my question is... Is this constitutional for the state legislature to use principles of a religion while setting up building codes.

I wondered to myself...It would perfectly acceptable for me to believe that hanging a cross or crucifix in everyhouse might make everyone better people, wouldn't it? Sure to me. Maybe.

So could I then ask that the state make it mandatory that every building be built with crosses in it? No.

It's blatant religious tyranny. So why does the left in California feel they have the right to exact their religious rites on ordinary people? Ya got me.

What do you think.

Regardless of your opinion to the contrary, philosophies are not religions.

For example, common philosophy with a number of folks on this board is "an eye for an eye". That's clearly not a religion. Or maybe it is for some folks

Anyway, what a goofy assemblyman. Too funny.

It's only a resolution anyway and not a law. Assembly-critters do not write building codes. That's left to the Cal Building Standards Commission, which is free to ignore the resolution and likely will.

AMF,

I clearly stated that Buddhism was the religion that I was talking about. I even gave the definition of a religion to underscore the point.

Johnlocke, whether or not Buddhism is a religion is immaterial to this debate, since feng shui is not a Buddhist practice. While there may be many Buddhists who believe in feng shui, feng shui (Wind and Water in Chinese) is an ancient Chinese geomancy.

What Is Feng Shui?
Defining Feng Shui
Q. "Do I have to be Buddhist to practice feng shui?"

From the last:


So, while this guy's proposal may well be ridiculous, you may be overreacting to connect this to the Constitution.

Oh, and, though it is often classified as such, according to the definition you supplied, Buddhism is not a religion. We do not believe that Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha, is divine. We do not believe that he created, or governs, the universe.

What I find most annoying about Feng Shui is how seriously it's adherents take it because, for many people in Western societies, anything that comes from an alien culture - no matter how crackpot - is viewed as automatically more valid and authentic than anything comparable that has come from the tradition of Western thought.

So, Feng Shui gets congressmen pondering it's incorporation into state building regulations, while Classical design principles (based on idea like the Golden Mean, and using classical geometry to produce structures as diverse as the Acropolis, St Paul's Cathedral, and the Palace of Versailles) are not even mentioned.

Similarly, Chinese herbal medicine, Indian head massage, and any number of other Eastern traditions can administer any number of potions of lotions without being subject to clinical efficacy (or safety) testing, yet no Western drug (many, if not most, of which are the purified active ingredients of herbal medicines, or the same substances made industriallY) is held to a far higher standard.

What is so bad about our own cultures and ideas that we make their progress hard, embracing instead the nostrums of other cultures?

This isn't a Western-ist point, simply a utilitarian one. By all means have an Indian head massage, or a reflexological foot massage, because they undoubtedly feel better than a pill or a potion will. But if you expect to be treated as some kind of expert, or even get similar credence to a doctor, you'd better be able to demonstrate the effectiveness of your treatment a little more effectively than customer testimonials - very few of these "new age" ideas are prepared to unergo any close scrutiny or objective evaluation.

Point 1: Buddhism is considered by sociologists and anthropoligists and religious studies experts to be one of the great religions of the world, along with Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Confucionism. The fact that Buddha is not, nor makes no claim, to divinity is irrelavent. What matters is that Buddhism articulates a specific metaphysical paradigm.

Point 2: Any requirement to build or behave in accordance spiritual principles or supernatural forces, whether divine and/or omnipotent, or not, runs afoul of current understandings of the 1st Amendment.

Point 3: Has anybody checked to see whether this chap is getting kickbacks from the Feng Shui Guild?

I am aware of that. Not only did I focus on Buddhist studies at university, but I have been a Buddhist myself for a long time. If you look at what I posted, I indicated that, though many classify Buddhism as a religion, according to the definition johnlocke supplied, Buddhism is not a religion. It is convenient when studying such things to classify Buddhism as a religion, but doing so is basically an imposed judeo-christian paradigm.



Agreed.

It seems to me that feng shui is an Asian approach to ergonomics and ambience, and as such, in this stressful world, couldn't hurt. If Californians have the money and the inclination to incorporate feng shui in their work space, why not?

Feng Shui is much more than simply an interior design philosophy. And, if Californians WANT to spend their money and time, fine. The problem is incorporating these beliefs into the building codes. Setting aside the First Amendment issues, California is already foundering on a see of regulation, now all you need is the hassles of waiting for the Feng Shui inspector?

I remember seeing articles referring to feng shui in home decorating and architect magazines years ago. I imagine with the cultural diversity in California, that feng shui would be very popular.

Don't push the panic button about the focus on religion and the First Amendment, etc. yet...like so many other ideas that individuals come up with...more of them are ignored or rejected than taken seriously enough to vote on and pass into law.

Hey, anything to help people live in harmony...make peace not war...... right?

Assuming that there is such a thing in this country as a "feng shui inspector," I don't see that person making a municipality or state government wait if there is money to be made.

Well, of course there aren't any Feng Shui inspectors, yet. But I assure you there will be if this were to pass, and the very essence of human nature makes me skeptical that they'll be all that much different from other building inspectors.

Just go over to Fine Homebuilding (www.taunton.com) and ask around for inspection horror stories. ....

Well, there's your main problem. Fung Shui is a design principle (similar to any other classical architectural design principle in the western world) and is also a philosophy. It is not, however, a religion whether you believe that to be true or not. Wertz has provided a few good links and quotes on the subject.

Fung Shui has been used as a design principle in many asian countries for centuries. Therefore, it is only natural Fung Shui might be used in San Francisco considering that approximately 33% of the city's population is made up of peoples of asian descent, according to the 2000 census. Without consulting US census numbers I would be willing to bet that is the highest concentration of asians with the exception of maybe the New York metro area.

It also does not surprise me that someone in San Francisco would suggest that Fung Shui be used in architecture because people there actually have a sense of design and architecture unlike almost any place else in the US save maybe New York. You'll find very few high rise residential towers there and you will not find a single suburban sprawl with boring cookie cutter houses ad nauseum. Residents celebrate diversity and diversity of architecture and this is merely another way to achieve that.



I have previously stated that Fung Shui is not a religious concept, but the example you cite here is to me a ridiculous comparison to Fung Shui.

First, crosses and crucifixes are blatantly religious symbols, there isn't any other way to view them. Fung Shui doesn't have symbols that are readily associated to it which could be recognizable.

Secondly, if you were to walk into a building with a giant cross on the wall, you could clearly tell that it was a religious symbol. However, if you were to walk into a building that was built using the principles of Fung Shui, how would you know exactly? You wouldn't. Not unless you happened to know something about Fung Shui anyway. What you would notice is that the building seemed to be layed out in a manner that was attractive and stylish. Even if you happened to think to yourself, hey this might be Fung Shui, any reasonable person certainly wouldn't claim that they were offended by some strange eastern "religion".

Finally, I think you have incorrectly interpreted the article, as nowhere does it state that the principles of fung shui would be "mandatory" design practices. The proposal merely suggests that these principles be available to city engineers when they are planning buildings. Without being intimately familiar with city building codes, I imagine that the design codes are probably pretty functional and would consider something of this nature a luxury not applicable to a government contract.

Many people already incorporate some of the principles of Feng Shui in their lives, homes without even knowing it. It has alot to do with human comfort and energetic response in an architectural or interior design situation.

How many of you here do not desire to sit with your back to the door in a restaurant? Would you design a restaurant so that most customers would not have to sit with their backs to the door? Yes. People are more comfortable, and you make more money.

How many have mirrors on the main wall of any room? It makes it look bigger, a feel of expansion. What color is your bedroom? Is it a pleasing relaxing color? Do you have soothing paintings of flowers or water, or did you put a Dali' above your bed in a heavy frame that your plaster walls may not support? Does anyone have a fountain in their home? Plants?
Much of these are the principles of Feng Shui.

If you have ever been to a restaurant, lived in an apt, worked in a building that was badly designed, you may not know why but you feel uncomfortable. Getting optimum response from workers and clients is important. Feng Shui has some basic principles that make sense.

I must disagree with Julian, which is rare, about us embracing anything that comes from the exotic. ( The Brits or us J.?) American culture is very practical and does not embrace outside ideas with ease.

I came to understand a bit about Feng Shui the other way around. I had comfort in some places and not others. I used to analyse the whys. Did my apt have a window that I had a long view..an expansive view, or look onto someone elses building/window? Did I have enough natural light? Were there windows on more than one side of the apt, not to feel boxed in, and what did I look at out those windows. I naturally began to look only for corner apts, that way there was more than uni-directional light and view . Where does my computer sit in relation to the front door, my back is not to the door. Do I have only one door or two? Can visitors access my bathroom without going through my bedroom, a private place? Does my kitchen open up to the rest of the house? How are the colors, is there a fireplace, is there open space, how protected am I from the front door? ( The other night I was in a friends apt, the front door is so open to the setting of the place you felt like anyone who came in would be an immediate affront, others backed against a wall, but AK has crappy apts overall)
Cold, industrial decor restaurants were specific entertainment for me, chic, but not a staple. Good for clubs though.
Then I read about Feng Shui and it made some sense, so its good to keep an open mind, you may already be practicing something you think is nonsense. Sometimes you go into places and you can tell the 'Feng Shui', term for human energetic comfort, is ALL wrong. You wonder why they dont get it? Because they didnt think about it. There are people more sensitive to it and can know why. Others just feel uncomfortable and never return. This is fatal to certain businesses.

Being from California, I've managed to grow up with a well-rounded personality when it comes to stuff like this. My best friend growing up was Vietnamese, and his mother who had no other boys, treated me as a second son. Ive been apart of a Buddhist funeral, a traditional wedding, and ive even got a mirror to 'ward off evil-spirits' over my front door to my apartment. That's the thing though, what I do with my space is my business. But to instill a practice that not everyone believes in as part of the law is not right.

They say in Feng Shui to avoid having toilets in the middle of the house so you dont 'flush' your money away. But I can imagine that sometimes itll be impossible to work around that. Building codes were desinged for saftey while accomidating the populus.

Building codes have no basis on any particular philosophy or school of thought. As long as the water runs, the plumbing works, the wiring is good and the strcture is sound then that should be it. Let the people arrange their furniture after they move in. Wasnt that what Feng Shui primarily worked around anyway? Not the design of the building itself but the 'home' created within it?

Really? So architects have no no philosophies or schools of thought? Nor designers have? Not true. Frank Lloyd Wright might disagree.

There are people who's primary job is to create work/space enviroments, and big buildings, those that function for both workers and clients. I dont think Feng Shui should necessarily be 100% primary in these endeavors but I dont think a knowledge of the philosophy could hurt.

The building itself is also factor. Certain designs are energetically (if you believe in it) compatible or not compatible with the purpose. Architects know this.

As you, and I said, americans are practical, ie: if the water runs, the pumbing works etc. (boring, box like structures which contribute little to our sense of appreciation of beauty in our human existance, horrible really that we settle for this). On the other hand, architects enjoy experimenting with design, however some design is non-practical and non human compatible/comfortable, alienating, which equals loss of purpose and practicality.

Give me a little time, Ill look up a few examples of positive Feng Shui and negative. We need beauty, practicality and livability/workability in our lives and work enviroment. What you see and live in everyday, in your world, affects your viewpoint. If it is boring, uncomfortable but practical, so will society reflect energetically, kind of grey, a bit of a down and ultimately unproductive. If it is interesting, artful, practical yet comfortable, so will the society reflect, a sense of ease and creativity, productivity and profit result.

There is common sense in considering human/structural/interior compatibility, at least in part. We spend a good half of our lives at work in America. If you visit artless towns in eastern europe, ( not their fault) you can see for yourself what dead boring, boxy, practical structures can do for human existance. We dont want to go there, we are too close enough already

What is not in any way true is that Feng Shui is a religion. It is a design philosophy, and an interesting one.

I would take issue with a few items in your post. First, Feng Shui is not a religion or belief system. Followers of it claim that it is a “scientific system” based on natural energy and studying earth elements. Being such, there is no “praying” or anything of the sort. Secondly, Feng Shui is not in any way connected to Buddhism(or Taoism for that matter) Don’t take my word for it, check out the American Feng Shui Institute at: http://www.amfengshui.com/faq.htm#Basic%20Principles I believe that they would be a good source of information about Feng Shui since they “follow” it themselves.

The Buddhists do not themselves claim to be a religion for the following reasons.



http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot01.htm

I respect your opinion that Feng Shui and Buddhism are related and that both are religions. I’ve merely posted sources from both that state otherwise. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, religion should play no role in determining housing policy. At the same time, the assemblyman's proposal is not a violation of church and state, as odd as it is.

And adherents of astrology claim that it is a "scientific system" based on cosmic energy and studying the position of the planets in relation to us.

Both are metaphysical belief systems. The fact that the systems do not incorporate a saviour, an omnipotent deity, or judgement day does not change them into systems that can be studied utilizing the scientific method.

On a sidetrack, if Buddhism isn't a religion, then why does it have monks, priests and nuns?

You have me mostly convinced about Buddhism, but I am still doubtful about Feng Shui being an organized religion. I would wager that "nuns" and "monks" in Buddhism is more of a difference in terms of semantics really. Their notion of it is probably something along the lines of teacher and student, not necessarily as what a Catholic or other religious person would take it to mean in the traditional sense.

No thoughts on Feng Shui and Buddhism being related?? I think that has bene pretty much established that the two are not in any way similar in terms of origin and compatability. Since the question has to do with a separation of church and state, the question is--are there Feng Shui templs, priests, and other items(like in Buddhism that you could argue) would qualify it as a religion?

Feng shui is definitely NOT a religion. No priests. Only consultants. It's more of a way of arranging stuff so that things are basically in harmony/positive. My family is Catholic but my mother uses feng shui principles at times (like closing the door b/w the dining room and the kitchen if she's washing dishes when we're still eating). It's more of a superstition/culture thing...don't tell her I said that.

As to the Buddhist/feng shui relationship, I'm not sure there is one, other than the fact that they come from the same place. My mother was raised Buddhist/Catholic (yes, we're a weird motley), but it was definitely more of a way of life that she was taught by her mother.

That being said, I couldn't believe Leland Yee actually actually expects to use it as as building code. I'm much more worried about the building being earthquake-safe here rather than having good feng shui. Besides, SF doesn't exactly have the extra change to afford to implement this right now.

Whether or not this is a religion is of no consequence...This is an example of pushing a semi-religious philosophy on others...The EXACT SAME stuff I hear people complaining about in the religious right threads...Why isn't there the same outrage here?

CP

Because Feng Shui is Not religious, it is a design concept. Is that so difficult to comprehend in post after post? Whoever connected it with buddhism is wrong. Buddhism is a life philosophy, Feng Shui is a design philosophy, which comes from China, and most Chinese are not Buddhists.

You can try as you might to make this something it is not, but the facts remain, it is not religious and has no connection to religion at all.

Feng Shui is an architechtural and interior design philosophy that has NOTHING to do with religion WHATSOEVER. Feng Shui can incorporate Crusifixes, Stars of David, statues of Ra, Freya or Bob Marley if thats your kick. It is about design space that meets human energetic needs. Architects understand this concept, some do not. Feng Shui is just another school of thought which takes human relation to buildings and interior to another level. Right or wrong, it is just another way of looking at our relationship to the structures we live and work within, usually MUCH more complimentary to our comfort in working and living spaces.

I wouldnt want to challenge that americans know Everything about life on the planet, but the Chinese have 2000 years of civilization before our known history and might have figured out in that time a few things about architectural space, window placement, color, plants, fountains, lighting, and overall design that might make a human more comfortable in their work/life enviroment. I know its hard to believe...

Artemise said:

Artemise, in my last post I acknowledged that Feng Shui is not a religion. What I did say is that this case was a clear example of a philosophy being pushed on others...That's all.

CP

But is that really true? Cube Jockey's post may have escaped your attention:



Truthfully, while I don't believe this proposal is illegal, I also don't think it is necessary. Architects, at least those I have known, tend to be pretty philosophical people, at least in regard to theories of negative space and design principles. The chances are, architects will already be knowledgeable in at least aspects of feng shui.

With or without some edict, I'll wager that not a few architects and design engineers already use elements of feng shui in their work - in some cases, they may not even be aware of it!

As I said, I think this idea is not really needed, but I wouldn't oppose the notion that feng shui design principles be formally available for perusal, among other design philosophies. It certainly doesn't sound like the city is planning to force only feng shui designed buildings on the people...

Quark, I know, but just picture this, Catholicism in place of Fung Shui...Boy oh boy that would start a serious serious broo ha ha. It's inconsistant is all that I'm saying...I feel the same way you do about it, I just stress that it is very inconcistant.

CP

But that comparison is completely invalid, it's like saying "Catholicism in place of bacon". You seem to be equating philosophy and religion, which is just false. Are you suggesting that if schools don't teach the Bible they also shouldn't teach the works of Rene Descartes?

Religion and philosophy are almost interchangeable IMO Looms...That's what I'm basing the comparison.

From Webtsters Online
Religion:
Their definitions are quite similar.

CP

CP, take a closer look at the the definition of philosophy you provided. It clearly states



Theology is:



So is philosophy religion that excludes religion and religious study? I think maybe you confused "exclusive of" with "exclusive to".

So, conservpat, I take it you believe that public buildings should be designed with no philosophy whatsoever? So they can't be utilitarian, or postmodern, or neoclassical, or gothic, or anything? In place of design principles, what do you propose they use? Stand back like Pollack and throw paint at the blueprint?

If feng shui is a secular design philosophy, then why should it be excluded from possibility? People still use certain Gothic principles in design - which, if I'm not mistaken, was originally a Christian principle. Of course, I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to architecture, so I could be wrong.

I feel as though you are splitting hairs, when you get to these dictionary definitions. Feng shui is not religious. Therefor it is as appropriate as any other design philosophy to use. Feng shui may have roots in religious aspects of Chinese culture, but so what? Many western design principles reflect Christian design principles. The thing is, you could easily design a church using the principles of feng shui, and no one would be the wiser...

Quark, as I said, I agree with you...I really don't have problem with Feng Shui, and maybe I am splitting hairs...I just see this as a little inconsistant...That's really all.

CP