I've heard that there have been rallies in Washington to promote reparations for slavery. I have found myself not understanding their argument. Should we have reparations for slavery?

There was actually an argument over this in the race debate forum, that got a wee bit out of hand...

Basically the argument is the American government owes the descedents of slaves for allowing their ancestors to be exploited for free labor and denying them human rights.
Arguments include:

1. This has caused hardship for the descedants of slaves.

2. Hardships to the slaves themselves should be paid back to someone... namely the relatives.

3. And that it would be a visible act of repentance for the government to do more than pay lip service to the view that the American government was wrong in supporting slavery.

There was an old topic that covers this.

However, it was closed due to racist remarks on behalf of a member, Corgi (now BANNED).

Let's keep this one civil this time.

Mike

Of course reperations is a totally ridiculous request, especially those not directly affected. Its one things when the jews who lived through Nazi terrorism ask for reperations, its quite another when three generations go by and want reperations.

There is also the question of when do you stop? If we're going to give reperations,why just slaves? What about those of Irish decent, or chinese decent? What about the Christians in the middle east, or the decesndants of those who fought in the Crusades?

Only governments which existed during the problem period are being asked for reparations. America has paid debts to other nation over year, even after those owed were long dead. Supporters of reperations ask why african-americans can't get the same.

I can understand the case for reparations, but think it would be extremely difficult to effect - and might not improve the lot of African Americans much in the long run. Also, I wonder how our Native American population would feel if African Americans were being granted some kind of reparation while they starve on a barren piece of land in the desert?

I would personally be more concerned about eliminating racism in this country. If we could reduce some of the racial majorities in the US - the majority being denied representation in our government, the majority living below the poverty line, the majority most likely to be stopped by police, the majority of IV drug users, the majority of starving children, the majority refused hospital admittance from emergency rooms, the majority in menial minimum wage jobs, the majority most likely to receive maximum jail sentences, the majority for whom third level education is unavailable, the majority without adequate health insurance, the majority being denied promotion in the workplace - that would be a step toward meaningful reparation. But throw a few thousand bucks at the descendants of slaves without addressing the effects of the racism which is still rampant in this country? Sounds like bandaging a corpse to me.

Let us consider the Constitution for a moment. That old piece of paper provides:

Sadly, slavery was legal at one time. Those who owned and used slaves were acting within their legal rights.

While it is illegal now, the above clause in our Constitution protects people/entities from being punished for something they did while an act was legal.

In addition to this, I have heard some argue that programs like affirmative action and race-based preferencing for government contract work IS reparations.

I don't know if I agree with that second idea, it may just all be semantics. All just a little food for thought.

I don't feel that reparations should be an issue. I agree that the real focus should be on eliminating racism in this country. I also feel that more attention needs to be placed on personable responsibility. There is this sense that no one is responsible for their own actions. For instance, a person may believe they dropped out of high school and started selling drugs all because someone in their ancestry was a slave. I don't buy into that. I do agree that there is still racism and inequality in this country, but how would giving someone a check for $1000 change their position in society? I don't buy into the argument behind reparations, and I agree that yes it was wrong, but it was legal and widely practiced. I think the main proponents are lawyers like Johnny Cochran who stand to make some $$$ out of the deal, and others who like to convince blacks that they are victims of some outside force, instead of encouraging them to take action and do something to better their situations. A good example is people who win the lottery. Many of them are middle to lower income, and over 80% of them are bankrupt and out of money again within 5-10 years. So tell me, how can a large check change someone's position in society and make up for wrongs? It cannot, pure and simple. People need to start being more proactive instead of reactive.

I totally agree with this...Bottom line is that it was legal back then.

Also, the african americans that are living presently have not been enslaved in any way, and the anglos in America today have not enslaved anyone in any way. It's like going into court and saying "Your grandfather killed my grandfather, so I want justice!" You'd be laughed out of the courtroom...I sware, we give an inch and they try to take a mile, it's absolutely ridiculous!

I don't support reperation, but please clarify that ...."I sware, we give an inch and they try to take a mile" remark

MT

In the US we "baby" minorities and pretty much tell them that it's not their fault if they fall behind because of discrimination, slavery in the past etc...And by letting them get away with doing less, they realize that they can have the easy way out of a lot and ask for more special priviledges...Give a little sympathy or special privledges and they'll take (or try to take) much more.

Ahem, whether or not you feel PC culture these days is to baby minorities. Minorities aren't being babied. They work hard for the gains they make, as hard or harder than whites in many cases. African-americans today are still upset by slavery(as they should be) but they now have there eyes on present-day discrimination which is still a problem.

African-americans didn't get an inch, all the civil rights movement did is get us out of the negative (which of course should be applauded)

Absolutely. As we can see, prejudice is alive and well even in this forum. I'm not so sure that the civil rights movement even got racial minorities out of the negative.

I agree with Turnea. I don't think that minorities are babied, but I do find it sad that a lot of the most visible Black "leaders" in the media, namely Jesse Jackson and the like, are too busy threatening to picket Toyota or Nissan rather than address the real problems. The fact is that single mothers are abnormally higher in black families, and there is a large majority of blacks in prisons. Something needs to be done to address these and other issues, and I don't think giving someone a $1000 "reparations" check will solve any of these problems. There still is racial bias today, I am sad to see it, but it still exists, and since you can't go into someone's mind and make them think a certain way, I am not sure what can be done about it. I think the whole mention above of the phrase "we give them an inch and they take a mile" is a bit racist myself. The fact that someone thinks of minorities as "them" is a problem. I also think it is strange that in this country everyone seems to segregate themselves, when it was worked at for so hard to de segregate. It seems, at least in my city, that the white people tend to live in one area, and the blacks in another. We have "Black Entertainment Television" and colleges that are "historically black." I think this lends itself to creating a further rift in society, and I also consdier some things like that to be kind of racist in themselves. There was a convention recently here of "The National Black MBA Assoc." I don't understand that, because it seems to me that if there was a conference of "The National White MBA Assoc." and no blacks were allowed, there would be protests all over the place. I am not saying that a group does not have a right to gather, but I think stuff like this only further serves to foster the "us vs. them" mentality. If I had some workable ideas I would present them, but I don't. I have people of all colors where I work, Hindu, White, Black, Hispanic, and as long as we all do our jobs, we are fine. No one is in their job because they are a certain color, they are there because they are the best at what they do. I get along with everyone, but maybe it is because I was raised that way. (I am white by the way.) If someone was raised to hate minorities, then other than starting with educating the parents, I don't know what can be done. That is a whole other issue so I won't go there.
Have a good Thanksgiving!!

It was 200 years ago! WHY pay repreations this late... their not being harmed anymore

Thank you Stotty, Wertz and Turnea for stealing my thunder

I think you gentlemen eloquently summed up what I was going to add in response to BringIt's "baby minorities" comments and the use of the word "them" to describe an entire race of people.

As a libertarian, I have always been of the philosophy that one can make it on their own in this great country if one has a stong work ethic. But I do not walk around life with blinders on. I KNOW racism still exists. I see it as being much more subtle than in our history, but it still exists.

I don't think reparations will solve the subtle racism problems, though. I think quality education and responsible parents will ultimately be the catalysts for change.

Cheers Jaime. Well put!!

I think what our friend meant when he/she said minorities were babied, is all the special rights afforded to them only because of their skin color. For instance, and most recently, universities lowering admission standards ONLY for CERTAIN minorities. This is unfair, to not only those who don't fall into that special category, but also to those who it DOES apply to.

And for once, I agree with Wertz. QUICK!!! SOMEONE CALL GUINESS!!!!

Bandaging a dead corpse is a good analogy.

If we pay decendants of slaves, then what about Germany? Should they pay the jews? Should we also pay the native americans? What about victems of Stalin or Lennin? Should they also be compensated?

There needs to be a line drawn, is this is where it is. No reperations....ever.

--cheers

This is exactly what I meant...And the fact that someone would act like I'm being "racist" in this comment makes me sick. Sure, there is some racism today, but one of the main reasons that it's being kept alive is that minorities are always bringing up past rasicm problems in our country's history--they refuse to let us correct that mistake and just move on! If you don't drop the slavery card, then racism will just continue to stem from that, based on the "special privledges" that minorities recieve, which even angers whites. Is there an affirmative action thread here? If not, I want to start one...

As some have stated slaver was legal at the time. Not only was it legal but the constitution gave guidelines on the slave issue. This has however, been altered since then with the 13th and 14th ammendments. To the descendents of slaves I must say that I dont really see how you are still suffering from slavery. I do not see why the federal government and the people of the United States should pay you for something that happend over 100 years ago. Most Southerners did not even own slaves and the ones that did usually treated their slaves with kindness, so much that some slaves stayed to work even after they had been freed. I am standing firm on this issue that the federal gov. should not even consider this issue as an issue because it is not a valid one.

Slaves weren't treated "kindly". The government owed the slaves a lot. The current government doesn’t owe their descendents anything for slavery that happened over 100 years ago. The government isn't a static object. Our government is made up of people. None of those people have a responsibility a fix their ancestors injustices. What we should focus on is the current problems that face their descendents.

[QUOTE=BringIt,Nov 27 2002, 02:41 PM][/QUOTE]
This is exactly what I meant...And the fact that someone would act like I'm being "racist" in this comment makes me sick. [/QUOTE]
Sorry if I offended you in any way. I meant that the practice of refer to minorties as "them" seemed slightly racist. I think that is a big problem, as in seeing a black person in a car and thinking "there goes a black person" instead of just seeing a person. I know that racism still exists in this country, but the "us and them" game needs to be addressed. I also think you were correct when commenting on how a lot of black leaders will not encourage others to be proactive and find a way to better themselves, and instead focus on things they feel are to blame for their situation. They seem to want to instaill this "victim" mentality, where all of their problems are someone else's fault. That is not going to solve anything, merely create wider rifts in race relations. I for one feel the best thing I can do is simply keep doing the same thing I always have done, look at a person for who they are and not what "color" they are. And again, I am apologize if you took offense to my comment. I was not attempting to call you a racist, I was merely commenting on your use of the phrase "them."

Im curious exactly what special privileges are minorities recieving?

Stotty, I only said "them" because I had already distinquished in the previous sentence that I was talking about minorities. Besides, I'm hispanic, not white, therefore a minority. Thanks for clearing up what you meant though, it wasn't meant to be written in a racist way.

Kim-look at the affirmative action thread for evidence of special privledges.

I agree that minorities do get some special privileges that I do not agree with. Take, for example, the case against the University of Michigan Law school that claims white students with better grades were not admitted so that "minorities" with poorer grades could be admitted. This is reverse racism, pure and simple, but it is also standard operation procedure in Affirmitive Action. Are we to assume the white student somehow did not earn the higher marks, or that he/she has better grades because they are white? I don't agree with so called "quotas." That makes it a practice of admitting someone simply because they are not white, which is wrong. I agree that some minorities take advantage of the current state of affairs and cry "racism" if they are ever fired or denied employment, even if the employer is completely in the right. People are so scared of being called racist nowadays that they often will give in to such tactics often to avoid a "scene." To me, there needs to be assurance that no one is denied opportunities because of their color, but that is very hard to do on a nationwide scale.

Stotty, I agree with that post 110%.

Okay, this is a complete tangent, but... Actually, maybe this should be its own thread.

I've now posted my question in the Race Debate Forum. Apologies for the distraction.

European descendents chose to come to this country. African Americans did not. The animosity that exists now between these races is a remnant from this; it is initialized by the African American population. They suffered from the injustice, and they are angry. It was a terrible thing, but now, very little satisfies their population. Rights have been established, opportunities are offered...

The dominant culture is/ has been racist, but it has also taken measures to embrace their population. Individual African Americans do acculturate, but the majority does not; they have to take some responsiblity for this division also.

Acknowledging the fact that this country today allows their population more rights and opportunity than Africa would, is key.

If the population's animosity stems from the fact that they had no choice but to be here, then why not allow them the choice?

For reparation, sponsor trips back to Africa. Allow the African American population the choice. Let them decide where they want to be.

jjirout

It is key not to acknowledge that. So what if we offer minorities more opportunity than their home country (which I dont believe is even right, because if they are born in America, doesnt that make America their home country?)? What is actually key is that they are not allowed THE SAME opportunity as whites here. That is whats important, not whether or not we're offering them a life better than a different country.

One more thing, from what I remember, quotas are voluntary. So the government is not to blame for their establishment.

You're the man!

But kimpossible, the issue of reparation revolves around past injustice, not the present; sponsoring trips back to Africa would address past injustice.

Present injustices are something else.

Both races suffer from the rift that currently exists between the races, but African Americans suffer more because they have less access to power because of it. European descendents contribute to this rift by being racist, and African Americans contribute to it through their animosity.

As a whole, the consensus in America is that racism is wrong. There are, of course, individual families (and parts of the South perhaps) that disagree with the consensus, but altogether, our country has outwardly declared that racism is wrong.

What is the consensus in the African American population? What kind of attempts do they make to breech this rift?

I only feel the animosity.

jjirout

Short Answer: Dead wrong, this is a lesson in how to tick off the black population.

Long Answer: This is the absolute worst argument against reperation the VERY LEAST (it's probably not even that) descendants of slaves deserve is to live in the country which allowed their ancestors to be enslaved. Saying that life in Africa is worse than life in the U.S. in no way and to no extent, justifies slavery. Love it or leave it is a ridiculous attitude to take concerning a democracy. Love it or change it is truer to form.

On another note, the U.S. government is indeed static is some ways, namely debt. If debt is acumulated now, it must be payed, even if it's a thousand years from now, I believe the descendents could still sue(provided it's enough money) as long as the organization with the debt is still around. Countries have to pay back debts over decades all the time, it comes with the territory.

"It was the wealthy African leaders who sold the poorer Africans to the slave traders. Blacks want to speak of their African heritage, when it was their heritage who sold them out to slavery.A lot of blacks today follow the Muslim religion, and Muslims practice slavery today. But no one wants to talk about that"

This is a quote from a black man H.K. Edgerton, he is a Confederate Flag defender, political activist and former President of the Asheville chapter of the NAACP. I dont think he could have said it any better, history proves this.

This of course is totally besides the point. We are talking about US support of slavery and whether it should pay reparations.

Should I as Irish decent and heritage expect reparations from Ireland. My people were under horrible conditions in slavery. If not why????. What race hasn't been slaves at some time.

It seems as if we all have different definitions on what is a "reparation". I think it may help this debate if we all explained what we mean when we say reparations.

Do you mean giving money to community groups to better education, business opportunities, and property ownership for decendants of African American slaves? Or do you mean handing a check over to each individual person of slave decent for "X" amount of dollars? Or something else I may not have considered?

Its all of that and more according to the naacp , they have a list of reparation demands including free health care, free land, free education.

I picture it as being the latter Jaime. Simply handing over a check.

--cheers

the white man never could have pulled off bringing 14 million slaves to America in a 400 year period without the help of African Chiefs who sold their own people into slavery.

Yes, and...

What does that have to do with reparations, I'm not following you

why dont you want reparations from the ancestors of the people who sold Africans to Whites?

Supporters of reparations only support them if they are from nations or organizations which supported slavery, not individuals. Organizations and nations were around with slavery, individuals were not.

How many nations you want reparations from, there are many.

Most of the African nations depended on slaves, Egypt .
Most of the Islamic countries owned black slaves from Africa
The British brought black slaves to the West Indies.
Europe had a big part in African slave trade.

Do you realize that the Muslims enslaved blacks from Africa for centuries?
Arabs raided African villages seeking humans for sale, and black African Muslims helped. WHY are you not holding the Muslim country's responsible for slavery?????? I can't help but think reparations are racism towards white Americans, when Arabs did the exact same thing whites did.

Reperations fall on the hands of this NATION. Reperations are being asked to be paid by America to Americans....Yes all of the above allegations are true. The reason for reperations are not solely based on who enslaved Africans. If I were to recieve reperations I would accept it on the point that it would start me at the basis of the "American Dream" Life, land and liberty. If given a fair start in this new country the state of Black America would be different. Since this did not occur when it was not too late, we all should just forget it. No reperations....

[quote=turnea,Dec 4 2002, 05:23 PM][QUOTE=jjirout,Dec 3 2002, 05:41 PM]For reparation, sponsor trips back to Africa. Allow the African American population the choice. Let them decide where they want to be.

This is the absolute worst argument against reperation the VERY LEAST (it's probably not even that) descendants of slaves deserve is to live in the country which allowed their ancestors to be enslaved.
[/quote]

Dead stupid. I wrote that the African American population ought to be given the choice on whether or not they want to be in this country. In no way did I imply that they should be forced to leave America. Sponsoring trips would not force them to leave. That would be ridculous. Many African Americans want to be in this country. It would merely offer them the choice.

[quote]Saying that life in Africa is worse than life in the U.S. in no way and to no extent, justifies slavery. [/quote]

And again, I never implied that a better life in America justifies slavery. Nothing justifies slavery. But holding an entire society responsible is ludicrious. 1. Children are not responsible for their ancestors crimes. 1. Our society is populated by many whose ancestors came here when there was no slavery. How, is the name of reason, can you hold them responsible for slavery and/or distinguish between the two populations?

[quote]Love it or leave it is a ridiculous attitude to take concerning a democracy. Love it or change it is truer to form.[/quote]

And again, I never implied that there were only two options. You do not have to love America to live in it. But, accepting it as your country is another matter. It seems to me as though there are many African Americans who do not accept America as their homeland.

jjirout

This makes no sense to me. Why just America?or is there a skin color requirement where reparations are concerned???? Would you expect reparations from muslims in America?? There ancestors also took part, the only difference bettween whites and muslims concerning slavery was that whites bought slaves and muslims stole slaves.

I watched the slave reparation rally on cspan a while back (I wonder how many that support it did) and I heard Louis Farrakhan say that muslims were the brothers and sisters of blacks????????. Why????????

As I am typing this, slave trading is going on right now in Africa. Black Africans are bought and sold in 2 northern African countries.In the Islamic Republic of Mauritania Black Africans are slaves now, today. Black African slaves here are traded for wedding gifts and guns.

What I see in this is that reparations are to make whites feel guilty about there ancestors or you know we will bow down to Jesse Jackson and Farrakhan. You know you would never be able to get reparations from muslims.We are only taught in school about white slave owners not black or muslims. Farrakhan could put his energy in trying to stop the slavey today instead of making whites give handouts. You want to do something ,stop the present use of slave trading in Africa by muslims.

I was talking to my church man and this is what he said and will back this up. Why should I have to pay taxes ( which the government will change to the reperations ) for something that is not DIRECTLY related to me? I had no choice in the decision

Yes, it was the mistake of the NATION to endorse slavery. But who exactly do you think is going to pay the bill? Each and every TAXPAYER.

I refuse to pay for the mistakes of my ancestors.

If we give black people reperations, the native americas, japenese (ancestors of those imprisoned during WWII), Mexicans (for going to war and winning Texas) and many many others will also want reparations.

Furthermore, there are countries even TODAY RIGHT NOW THIS VERY MINUTE that are practicing slavery. Why don't we fix that situation first.

--cheers

Agreed. I pay little taxes ( and yes i am 15 and *GULP* work ) but i want to make sure my little taxes goes to a GOOD cause aka government spending for drastic things war to protect our selves ETC. IF someone would have told people of the US governemnet at the time that we will be faced by this debate,, im sure they would of fought earlier...do you think our ancestors wanted it. And by the way their was no slavery in the north 36'30 line but only in the 5 states who were boardered... hey this is my longest post

jjirout: My point was offering trips back to Africa is not reparation at all. It's not even desirabale. As I'm sure you know.

The American public at present is not responsible for slavery but the government has historically supported the barbaric pactice which robbed millions of americans of jobs and lives. Reparations isn't about hold the present people responsible, it's about paying a long overdue debt, something countries must do whether or not the specific individuals involved are around.

African-Americans are citizens, that as far as adopting America as their country need go, what more do you want from them?

Turna i am a bit confused about your post...are you for or against?