The whole Janet Jacksoon boobie nonsense got me thinking. What is the big deal? Why so much anger and talk about moral decline..it is a breast...women have them..in fact men have them too. Women's tend to be more voluptuous..but not always. Women's are said to be more sexual..but I think that is disputable.

Why does specifically American society have such a hang up on the breast and do you feel this in true essence is any different than those who feel women should not show their faces or hair for fear of being immoral and inciting deviant sexual behavior in society?
How is our insistence that women cover the bosom in the name of modesty any different than the insistence that women not wear pants, or keep their face covered in the name of modesty?

Also..more Why is the decline of society's morals dependent on women's attire? How exactly did this connection occur? Is what we wear as women that significant of a society's beliefs and behaviors? Is women's wardrobe that much of an indicator to the values, tolerance and acceptance of a culture? Do men also have these visual indicators too..or are they immune from repression of sexual identity?

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I think society has every right to set up standards defining what is acceptable in the public arena.

You can say sex is a great thing, no one should be ashamed of having sex or being sexual, but would you want high schools to have "lounges" so that teenagers can "get it on"?

The same standard can be applied to public nudity.

The standards evolve all the time. The current standard is that there has to be something covering certain parts of the anatomy.


You're really asking why different societies have different standards of decency. I won't wait for the sociologist's answer (do we have one at AD??), but the answer boils down to the one my mother always gave me: because they do.

Each society is different. Each has different standards of dress, vocabulary, customs and a host of other things.

Our standard is that certain anatomy parts should be covered in an acceptable manner. I don't know how else to explain it.

There is a time and place for everything, Amlord. I wouldn't want there to be open bathrooms in schools, just as I wouldn't want there to be lounges for teenagers to have sex in schools. Not because there's anything wrong with teenagers having sex, or anything wrong with using the restroom, but like I said earlier, there's a time and place for everything. That was a ridiculous analogy. Just because someone doesn't want a lounge in schools where teens can have sex doesn't mean they don't think teens having sex can be a good thing.

The "current standard" about public nudity is pure foolishness. It is permissible to have every square inch of the breast showing but the nipple, but when a hint of areola shows, it's a travesty. Just over a round patch of dark/pink colored skin. People becoming so upset over a round patch of skin have serious issues, as does a society that allows every inch of a breast to be displayed but that round little circle. I believe that is just as oppressive as forcing women to cover their hair out of modesty. Guys can walk around with their shirts on nearly wherever they please, as in these societies, men can walk around with their hair exposed; but if you happen to be born female and have more fat hanging from your chest (even though there are many overweight males with bigger breasts than mine), it's a terrible sight to behold and will traumatize children across America. Because breasts can be sexually arousing to men, we force the women to cover up. Makes perfect sense to me. Or we could make like Europe and de-sexualize breasts by making them commonplace, on the beaches, wherever. It's common sense; once a man has seen a thousand breasts, they will most likely start to decline in their sexual appeal to him. The parallels Bucket made are extremely on target in their correlation between the U.S. view of the female body and more oppressive societies', like say, Iran's view of the female body.

The current standard is a double-standard with no logical reason why this is except for the fanatical, backwards beliefs of some people. The purpose of the breasts is to provide milk. Men made them into things to be excited over, which subsequently made them censor them, and here we are in 2004, abiding by the same irrational standards.

I would say a society's standard of what is appropriate attire is almost always based entirely on the dominant religion, for the simple fact that they don't make any rational sense and also happen to be encouraged by the dominant religion of that society. Religion has a standard of oppressing women, and "proper attire" (usually determined by men) is usually determined by their opinion of "modesty."

Yay! My debate is back

Amlord I found it very curious that you immediately approached this topic with sex. Sex is the focus of your debate and yet the breast is not a sexual organ. That is why we refer to it being sexualized. I did not ask one question in reference to sex and yet here it is...sex sex sex.

We have young children..who are no different chest wise from either sex..made to cover up because they are female and from what I understand not even strict Islamic cultures make women cover themselves until they are considered to be of a sexual age. I have had friends who were harassed because their under 2 yr old child was "indecent". This breast thing and the need to shroud it and cover it and be modest of a non-sexual part of ourselves is thrusted and enforced on us from a very early age..an age where we should not be told we are sexual or different especially when the naked eye shows no difference.
Why is the breast such a powerful image in our society that our society feels it must restrict our exposure of it or indecent behavior towards it even at prepubescence?

American society has a very strange relationship with the breast. It is all over our media..we have entire empires built on the viewing of it and yet we can't handle women breastfeeding in public or babies and toddlers with their chests exposed. Such duality, such conflict and far too much morality of society being placed with women and from the time they are young girls no less. Why are women being made the keepers of society's morality?
Why don't we see the idea of sexualizing the breast, or a bathing toddler or a breastfeeding baby as immoral or indecent or not up to society's standards?

I think America's view of the breast - and the female body in general - is too confused for even America to figure it out. Most of the confusion, no doubt, comes from the men. Having a pair myself, I don't really see the big deal. It has always amazed me how many men I meet who adress themselves to my chest... I can start the conversation with "Hi, my name is" and they respond to my chest "hello, nice to meet you". And these are conversations when I am wearing my rather modest business clothes. My poor little sister was given what one of my cousins calls a porn star body - so she really has trouble dealing with finding "appropriate" clothes. If she buys any shirts without a crew neck, that aren't large and baggy, she gets a reputation as a slut. If she buys a shirt that will make her not look like a pregnant woman, she gets deemed a "loose woman". This is all without doing or saying anything that would give this impression.

At some point, our puritanical past has deemed the female body to be sinful in and of itself. So, women have to spend about three times as long dressing to make sure we give just the right impression. I saw "scrubs" last night, and it made a very true observation that those female doctors/residents/students that make an effort to look decent are usually treated as stupid by the men and as sluts by the women - whereas a male can dress good or not and no one thinks twice. To me, this is no different that making the women cover their hair and not show our ankles because we might cause some sinful feelings in a man. Its much easier to blame the woman than to look at the man and say if you think those lustful feelings are sinful, then make them stop. Inevitably, it hardly matters what the woman is wearing because some women are given bodies that would "insight lust" even wearing an old sack.

What amazes me most is that in our movie rating system, full frontal female nudity can be seen in even some PG-13 movies... and yet get a hint of the taboo male anatomy, and its got to be x-rated. This, to me, tells women and young girls that their bodies are not as important... as if to say your a dime a dozen so you shouldn't cherish your body. Why should a girl dress modestly if the movie she is going to will have lots of gratuitous female nudity. Personally, I think if the US is going to get shocked about a female breast on TV they should start getting shocked by a female breast in the movies. Its interesting that in Europe, the female breast is not taboo - its in regular TV ads, and on the beaches and swimming pools... but the male body is not taboo either. Pick up the average german magazine equivalent to "seventeen" magizine, and any interview with a male star usually involves a full frontal nude photo shoot. But maybe the men are afraid that if we stop caring so much about the female anatomy, we might start showing nude men in movies and magazines...

In general I think its rather odd that men can claim the sexes are equal and yet a woman breastfeeding or baring her breast is a major controversy.

No I do not see a difference. To me at the Heart of this double standard is an attempt to diminish a females self worth, self confidence. I believe this societal trend originates from Judeo-Christian Dogma. The creation of woman/man In the Garden of Eden It was Eve who was sexualized who corrupted and lured Adam into eating the forbidden fruit. It is Eve who must be reeled in, she is too dangerous. So where a mans chest is just a chest our society feels justified in the belief that a woman's chest is so much more than a chest therefore we must cover it. This now leads into your next question to debate..



Because women are viewed as such a threat and she has within her ability to lure man away from what is right, what is moral and what is Gods will. What better way to gauge our societies morality than to monitor women's expression of sexuality, how she presents her body to society. If a woman is allowed to present a part of her body that a man may feel a sexual attraction towards this must be stopped. Society as a whole must do everything in its power to subdue such behavior. Why because she has some magical ability to lure man away from God, from what is morally right?

Within this belief structure there lies a very serious and damaging message to women and men.
Does anyone honestly believe That a mans attraction to a woman's well developed breasts is any greater than a woman's attraction to a mans well defined chest and six pack abs? I do not believe so.

The responsibility to control and limit amoral behavior is placed on the woman in both cases. By this I mean that women are responsible for self control as well as control of the mans desires.

The onus of control being placed on the woman is also well depicted in societies reactions to victims of male sexual aggression. She asked for it, she dressed too provocatively or Come On! Why else was she there? The woman is left to justify herself while the man is seemingly excused of his desires, Boys will be Boys...



edited to correct typo

I think Americans have a much different sense of nudity in general (for everyone), than the Europeans. I used to let my boys run around the yard and public pool naked during the summer...which was perfectly acceptable for those around 6 and under in Italy. I certainly wouldn't do here...although I still let them run naked in the BACK yard because it has a tall privacy fence. But then we have a different sense of other things, too...such as personal space. People (including men) kiss each other on the cheeks to say hello and goodbye. I remember going to a New Years' celebration in Italy. At midnight, everyone at the table (about 30 of us) lined up and kissed each other...assembly line style. My husband remarked that it was a rather strange experience to be kissed by 15 different men. In a nutshell, it is all related...different countries have different culturally accepted behavior, and different comfort levels.

Europeans do have breaches of etiquette when it comes to attire. I would draw the parallel of breast exposure in Europe to rear-end exposure here. A person is free to wear a thong to the beach, but it would be improper to wear it to the store (except at the beach quicky mart). Breasts are not un-sexual in Europe. "Cicciolina", the Italian porn star-turned-politician, was known to allow supporters to fondle her breasts, and often exposed them during her campaign. The effect would have been different if she pulled up her sleeve and said, “See my beautiful shoulder, everyone! Want a feel?” Certainly European male politicians don’t generate support by exposing their bare chests.



I breastfed (often in public) myself, and didn't encounter any opposition, so I don't really agree that the public perceives that as indecent or immoral. Perhaps I didn't do it long enough (I staying at home a lot for those first months), I don't know. Per the questions for debate:

Do you feel American society's views of the breast in true essence is any different than societies/cultures who feel women should not show their faces or hair for fear of being immoral and inciting deviant sexual behavior in society? Nudity and virtual nudity are everywhere. The fact that the actual nipples aren’t shown on public billboards and magazine covers is rather inconsequential, IMO. It is mostly a matter of public etiquette. A person dresses for the image they wish to portray. Women don’t run around topless in Europe except at the beach, pool, or spa. Men run around in thongs and speedos there, too. I like American bathing suits for men better, that’s a bit too much information for me.

If not then how is our insistence that women cover the bosom in the name of modesty any different than the insistence that women not wear pants, or keep their face covered in the name of modesty? Again, to me the issue is one of etiquette. It is simply bad manners to expose your breasts in public (unless there is a baby attached and feeding) for the same reason I wouldn’t drop my pants in public and walk around in a thong…but I would at a beach.

It isn’t a morality issue to me. It’s a courtesy one.

I have to disagree with you..I think far too many Americans are in fact offended by the act of breastfeeding and do feel it is bad manners, indecent and rude to expose them to it.
There are just gobs of stories out there of mums being asked to stop or leave restaurants, pools, stores and even PUBLIC places. The thing that bothers me the most about this ..is in a LOT of these cases it is large corps involved...

Local Mom Asked To Stop Nursing At McDonald's


Or here have a read of what many thought over at Free Republic on Burger Kings newly adopted breastfeeding policy..
Have it your way - Burger King adopts corporate policy to allow breast-feeding in restaurant


Or here is some advice on the subject...

source

First off...why are women who are not ashamed or uncomfortable about BF called militant? And second why is it acceptable to say...like it or not this is how it is...well it shouldn't be that way. The male interpretation of what the breast is and what it is for should not be society's standard because it is indecent. Women should not be told to just deal with it and have to alter their behavior in accordance.

There have been over 30 states that have enacted or made special consideration of BF in their laws...all within the last few years. There is not one state in the US where BF is illegal and yet we have such a strong view of the breast and it's need to be censored in our society that laws had to be written and amended in order to protect women's and children's rights on the matter.

Well, if I had to wait until I was home to feed my baby, I would have never left the house. It wasn't a problem for me, and it isn't illegal, so I don't know.
From your first link
It doesn't sound like this happens very often. That fact that it ever happens is unfortunate, but not necessarily a pattern.

Mrs. Pigpen Posted on Feb 5 2004, 09:49 AM


I am very happy to hear that this was not an issue for you, Wow you are a stronger woman than I. As most women who have nursed know that especially in the beginning the mothers stress and comfort level has everything to do with her ability to successfully nurse a child. The few times I attempted to nurse in public (even with a baby blanket shrouding the event) it was a frustrating and futile experience for the both of us. I was so uncomfortable and self conscious that we promptly headed to the car and where we were finally successful. I did attempt it a couple of times at different points during the year that I nursed and was able to let down my milk, still I was so uncomfortable and self conscious that what was normally a beautiful bonding experience for us became an ugly necessity, one that I generally avoided. We can continue to discuss laws and instances where a Mother and Childs rights have been violated in the name of decency, though to me it does not address the core of the issue. Why as a society do we raise our children initially to to understand that a breast is a source of nourishment and comfort only to later stigmatize it with with sexual innuendo and moral deviancy. It is a hypocritical and confusing state of affairs to say the least.

Sorry to hear about your experience, Piper Plexed Perhaps my experience was different because I had the second one in Europe, and left the house very little with the first. I certainly agree with you all about this.

IMO, this too will evolve as our culture changes to accept it. Breastfeeding was extremely rare until recently. Formula was perceived to be better than breast, and people became accustomed to bottles only. In time, things will probably turn around again. I read somewhere that even during the 1800s a woman could breastfeed openly during a church service without a second glance.

A good friend of mine went to a catholic primary (elementary) school in the 1930s, and he was taught what is called "custody of the eyes". If one sees an impious thing, one should look away so as to avoid immoral thoughts.

I feel it's highly improper to expect other people in a public place to change for your own comfort if they do something unintentionally offensive, and that could easily be avoided if the offended party took custody of their eyes. That's bad manners. And to me, "manners are still a part of my morals", to paraphrase Walter Pater.

I don't believe men should wear shorts that expose their legs - the very worst part of a man. But I wouldn't scream indecency there. I would scream ugly.

Why is this thread dominated by ladies?

We had a very interesting "continueing education" conference on human sexuality- lot's of studies quoted, lot's of psych and sociological stuff being thrown around- and here is a couple myths I need to dispel before the debate goes on-

men have not sexualized the breast- women have. It is along the same lines of, a woman does not dress to impress the men as much as to establish pecking order of best dressed among themselves.

There is alot of presumptions about sex that are "blamed" on men- but, as with everything, it takes two to tango. Just as the size of a man's manhood is more important really among men, the breast is a badge among women.

Over and over again, when studies have been done, it is the overall hourglass shape of a woman that is more important to the man than the size of one or the other portion of the anatomy (of course, individual exceptions occur).

It is the unique victorian history of the puritan that gives us our sexual wierdness in this country.

EVery society that is a unique culture has unique sexual morays- for instance, in Thailand- there is the recognition of a third sex - basically the transexual- that is completely alien thought to your average American.

Our colective homophobia as a nation is another area that some cultures have differing opinions of what homosexuality is. In america, one homosexual experiance by a male makes you a homosexual in many male's thoughts- while in many European cultures, you are not homosexual to you identify yourself as one.

We are a mixed up silly society when in comes to sex, to be sure, but I hope we can grow up someday LOL

CruisingRam Posted on Feb 5 2004, 10:23 PM


I have a few concerns with your post.... the least of which is you failed to respond to the questions for debate, even if there is a thread of a possible response contained therein I find it is so shrouded with pontification that it is unrecognizable, and very difficult comment on. Please Sir, preface your response with the question to which you are responding. I see you noted numerous studies to support you opinion, if they are indeed applicable, please supply them.

Corvus Posted: Feb 5 2004, 08:35 PM


Very interesting, I believe I will remember that one!

Mrs. Pigpen Posted: Feb 5 2004, 11:10 AM


This reminds me of a culture that has held my imagination for years;
The Minoan civilization was at its height between 1750 and 1580 B.C.




For the full article;
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MINOA/WOMEN.HTM

What I find most intriguing is how women dressed in this seemingly gender balanced and very advanced civilization.


For the full article and Art;
http://www.annaswebart.com/culture/costhistory/minoan/

In this culture where women were not required to cover their breasts, where they were openly accepted physically as well as intellectually. They reaped all of the benefits of true equality that to this day has not been paralleled.

It is also believed that the Minoan Civilization were actually the inhabitants of Plato’s Atlantis
Please see:
http://www.laketech.com/AD_LC.HTML

I recently watched a wonderful Discovery Channel presentation on Atlantis which explored all of the above as well as produced archeological and geological evidence. I am so sorry I can’t remember the exact name of the show though if the title has Atlantis in it you probably have the right one.

Too often women's wardrobe or what is considered to be their acceptable attire is tied to the fall of morality in the specified culture or society.
How exactly did this connection occur and is what we wear as women that significant of an indicator to a society's beliefs, values, behavior and morality?

Actually it was the male bashing part of the various posts that blamed the entire societal sexualization issues on males that I was addressing as PART of the question dealing with "society's beliefs, values, behavior and morality"-


If you have read my anti-religion posts in the past, you know I am no apologist of the Judeo-Christian religion, but you have this part wrong-



I believe this societal trend originates from Judeo-Christian Dogma. The creation of woman/man In the Garden of Eden It was Eve who was sexualized who corrupted and lured Adam into eating the forbidden fruit. It is Eve who must be reeled in, she is too dangerous

It wasn't until St. Augustine of the Christian church that alot of the sexual uptightness of the church began- and re-read the genesis account of the garden of eden- Adam was standing right there in about every account and didn't stop her, it wasn't until the Christian church and St. Paul then Augustine that you have some more of the misogynist Church practises.

Societies evolve- from thier early small population starts (ours was Puritan of the Victorian sexually uptight style) to thier larger later offspring we have today, with the undercurrent of natural human behavior still dictating the society, even if we attempt to blunt one drive or the other.

This is why I posted more about sexual developement early in my post- because even though society sets certain norms, some behaviors are ruled by biology, and society just points them one direction or another.

Sexual developement and behavior have a place in every society, and ours is pretty schizzo!

For instance, I have one personal anecdote- when I bought my round-the-world-backpackers tour ticket, first place I really started to get into the travel stuff was in Australia at Bondi beach- very European beach. All the poeple had on the same swimsuit- basically speedos or square cut australian life guard trunks, very tight both of them, no top on the ladies. I was wearing the fashionable on US beaches "jams" trunks. I stuck out so bad on that beach, after about 2 days, I bought the trunks!

Women set fashion, not men. Women set what is beautiful, not men, we are taught by our female mother figure what is beautiful, we get very little of that from men. How many straight men do you see in the fashion industry?

Men aren't designing these bras and corsets, women and non-straight males are for the most part.

So why do women set "women's wardrobe or what is considered to be their acceptable attire is tied to the fall of morality in the specified culture or society.
How exactly did this connection occur and is what we wear as women that significant of an indicator to a society's beliefs, values, behavior and morality? " the way they do?

I have a combined four years of nursing experience. I never
once had a problem where someone overtly showed me that
they were uncomfortable with me feeding my child. There were
rare moments when I felt uncomfortable, for whatever reason
(we were in a crowded restaurant, etc.).

Society, by and large seems to be okay with breastfeeding in public.
I did it for longer than most mothers, so I think I am a good judge
of how such an action is generally received by others. It all has to
do with one's own personal attitude and expectations. If a woman is
uncomfortable with what she is doing it will be felt by others,
and, thus, there will probably be more of a negative response.

I have a friend who would nurse her child without a nursing-blanket.
She had no embarrassment about it, and so, others seemed to
accept her action, as well.

Breasts are a sexual part of our culture. Women have bought into
that idea. Why else would we have so many ladies going "under the
knife" to have larger and more voluptuous "anatomies".

As an aside, the Janet Jackson incident was not distasteful simply
because of Janet's breast "exposed". It was the context in which
everything occurred. Sex (or simulations, thereof) is something
that is meant to be an intimate, private experience, between two people.
(It was not simply about one bosom being exposed.)

CruisingRam Posted: Feb 6 2004, 06:22 AM


I believe my point was (I apologize for not being clearer in its illustration), that intrinsic to the Adam and Eve story is a seed of gender inequality. I do not believe that the premise of the story has changed pre St Augustine to post St Augustine. If in fact it has and I am unaware of these findings please illustrate. I completely agree with you that St. Augustine as well as the Victorian period were turning point in our social sexual evolution and are avenues quite worthy of further discussion. Please could you get some links together, some reading material sounds like fun.



I agree, though why has our societies path lead to gender inequality and in civilizations like the Minoan it has lead to quite the opposite? If you have not had the time to visit the links previously provided, I highly recommend them.



The point I am leading to is not so much as who perpetuates our societal trends but where do they originate from. If we as a culture male and female ever hope to change in our perception of each other we must begin with the origin of our belief. How else can we fully understand who we are.

So it is the women's fault? They must have been putting out some kind of negative energy or image in order to have received a negative reaction? Couldn't be that some people are idiots when it comes to breastfeeding? Did you read any of the links I provided? People in our society feel it is ok to use public urination as an analogy to BF in public. The percentage of women who BF in the US is still small..not many people are exposed to it and feel it is acceptable. I have heard women themselves describe it as gross or sexual.
Perhaps you yourself or your friends have never had any negative reactions..but they do happen. They happen enough for states all across the US to enact or revise legislation to protect an already legal action...public BF. It happens enough where companies have had to openly state their policies on it and educate their staff accordingly. It happens enough that public BF can be considered an advocacy.






What are we chickens CR?
If men have not sexualized the breast then why are most topless bars clientele men? Many use to prohibit women from entering or require them to have a male escort.
Why is most pornography geared to the male viewer? Why is the sexual taboo of the breast most predominant in male centric mediums?
Yes women are competitive with one another ..but what is it they are competing for?
I think women are a lot more sophisticated in judging and classifying one another than just basing it on breast size. As a well endowed woman myself I can tell you that I have always received unwanted attentions from men, comments, stares, propositions and have not received the same treatment from women..have not had women openly and loudly exclaim the size of my breast unlike I have from men..have not been asked the status of my breasts size or authenticity in a casual getting to know you setting unlike I have from men. Men label or classify me to my own husband in accordance to my breasts. Again not even my closest girlfriends put that much emphasis on my chest. The breast and it's sexual imagery is a big deal to men here in America and for you say it isn't to me is being completely dishonest in this discussion.



I am sorry I was unaware of there being overt sexual imagery of a man's penis prevalent in our society. Would you care to show examples of where this is seen and where children would be exposed to this societal ideal and start having feelings of inadequacy because their norm was not living up to society's demand for the perfect, large, digitally enhanced, surgically altered protruding penis they so often see being portrayed in our media? I think penis size is a lot less of an issue for men..men are not immediately judged by women or society on their penis. The breast and it's size is not something most often reserved for intimate interactions in our society...women do not list penis size as being one of their most important physical attractions to a man.






Yeah and? The hourglass shape includes large breasts..yes? I think we all understand that large breasts on a 300 lb women is not considered to be as sexually attractive as they are on a 120lb woman.





Male bashing? How about ignorance bashing...anyone who thinks it is ok to sexualize a 2 yr old child or a breastfeeding baby or to deny the true biological reason women have breasts deserves to be bashed about a bit..male or female.



Oh please men are hardly victims of fashion or pop culture. If your mother is your defining image of what you consider to be beautiful in a sexual sense then you have problems! Society as a whole defines a lot of this for us. This happens from either gender..men and women. Just society places a lot more importance on women's physical appearance then they do on men. Do men place less importance on physical appearance? No hardly..men are very visual when it comes to sex and what they find attractive.
Men don't have to be gay in order to care about fashion, their own physical appearance or beauty. There are male fashion designers who are not homosexual..there are male models, there are men's lines in the fashion ind. and through out human history men have always been involved in fashion and equally concerned with their image.

I do not think women like Pamela Anderson would be such current pop culture icons if it not for their appeal to men. Men are a major catalyst in this country's feelings and imagery of the breast.

If we saw more natural normal breasts out and about doing natural normal things other than being sexualized by men..because that is how they are so so often shown in our society as sexual arousals for men..then each gender male and female... would have a healthier attitudes about themselves and each other.

If we placed less emphasis on the correlation of women and their clothing and the vital importance this has on society as a whole. Again a lot healthier attitudes for all.

I just wanted to make a comment about the perception people have about Europe. European women are still considered sexy..women's breasts are still considered sexual..just like men's chests are. It is just a lot healthier and open attitude about it all. They still have sexy ads and they still have plastic surgery, and they still have nudey pix with women bearing their chests..it is about context. The mouth can be a very sexual part of the body yet we except it's duality ..we know the mouth is and was never intended to be only a part of our sexual lives and so we approach it and define it in accordance to it's context. We are not idiots...I think Americans can and should be able to grasp the same logic when it comes to the breast. Sometimes it is sexy...sometimes it is hot, sometimes the baby needs to eat..and sometimes we are 2 yrs old and there is nothing sexually arousing about us that is up to societal standards of morality.

I'm not trying to say it is a breast-feeding mom's fault if some individuals
get weird about her doing the most natural thing on earth - feeding her child!
I'm just saying that if you go out into the world looking for trouble you'll
probably find some here and there, and in my breast-feeding experiences,
I never even fancied the thought that I'd encounter such adverse reactions.
Now, maybe I lucked out where that is concerned.

I will say this: Any negative reaction I got was from other moms.
For instance, my sister-in-law came to visit when my older son was about
18 months old. It was bedtime for him, and our evening ritual was
that I would nurse him to sleep. The most natural thing a mother can do
for her child. Well, my sister-in-law said, and I quote, "You're still nursing
him??!!!!!! Isn't he a little old for that???"He was only one and a half years
old. I also received more mild comments (of the same nature) from other
moms with infants. They were moms that nursed for 3-6 months then put
their babies on formula.

I've had no negative comments or reactions from men re: breastfeeding.
Maybe we women should look at what we are doing to help create
and perpetuate negative stereotypes re: breasts.

Granted, I live in the most superficial city on the planet, nevertheless, it is
commonplace for women below the age of 25, to have breast implants.
To me, it is outrageous that a woman would be so obsessed with her own
bosom, that she'd go out and have some foreign substance put in her body.
It's shallow and a good sign of a woman's own insecurity. Whether or not
society is dictating how a woman should look and be, it's ultimately the
woman's decision whether or not she will buy into the retarded stereotypes
of what makes a woman a woman.

I honestly think that the whole "is the breast sexualized, who sexualized it" deal is completely irrelevant. Ok, so the breast is sexualized. Why does that automatically mean that it is unacceptable in public? What exactly are we so afraid of?

I really don't see the difference between the veil and the pastie. To me, both are an example of the righteous soup nazis trying to tell us that we should be ashamed of how nature designed us. Or that parts of us are somehow inappropriate.

I have yet to see evidence how ANYONE ever got hurt via breast. That is the only way I can see any justification for all these regulations. I fundamentally disagree with decency laws, because I don't think that anyone has the right to tell people what their morals should be. Decent vs. indecent is determined by morals alone.

I think people should adjust to the idea of babies being breastfed by their mothers in public. It's the baby whose hunger matters, not the perceptions of people with dirty minds.

There is always at least one day in the summer when it is so hot that I wish I were a man and could just go wearing no shirt and no bra. But I don't do it. If every other woman did, I might, though. Implicit in this societal change would have to be the "don't touch" rule.

Regardless of who started it, the sexualization of the breast has managed to restrict the freedom of a woman to be comfortable with herself and with others looking at her.

It actually feels good to be my age in the sense that I am not looked at by men as a potential sex partner the way younger women are. The diminished attention is freeing. At the same time, it's always good to hear somebody say, "You look nice."

Topic discussed separately here.