I had to start this thread because we were so terribly getting of topic on the Bush immigration proposal thread.

Are illegals 'criminal' in the real sense of the word?

How are you personally affected by illegal immigration?

Most importantly, who is more to blame, the illegally employed or the employers?

Doomed Planet says in the other thread, I am affected:


I fail to see this as the fault of illegals. Who is responsible for the decent education of children? Is there specified/different education for legal children as opposed to illegal? If they were all legal would this change? Please explain how illegals as opposed to legals affect education, or how they are to blame.



'Multiply like rabbits' is such a rude term to apply to human beings, shame. The evangelists in our white house are against birth control, abortion and are pro-marriage, all good faith values amongst our immigrant bretheren and the good christian people of this nation. Are you suggesting otherwise? Or do you think only white americans deserve to have children? Please give some reference to illegals benefitting from the system and how we support their children for 'umpteen years'. Possibly they support us, if youve ever been in a restaurant kitchen or amongst a cleaning crew anywhere. Tisk, tisk, to the priveledged who know not what they speak.

Cruising Ram:


So, some people should be let in because you know them, and you can testify that they are good people, hardworking people educated people,honest people. The others are not good, hardworking or honest.Simply, they are not relatives and you do not know them, and will not advance your capitalistic or personal goals. Uh huh.

Look, if there were not job availability, there would be no illegal immigration. If employers would not hire illegals, they would not come here. I KNOW this because when the EU shut down for Americans I could not get a job and came back to the US after 9 years ILLEGAL in Spain and one illegal in Greece. I suppose I was a 'criminal' there, although I paid taxes and lived as a expat, but when it was done, I had little recourse, but to return to the US. I worked 7 months in Mexico, but always had to skirt immigration, because of zero tolerance, something I always thought ludicrous. But those are the facts.

The criminals are NOT those who seek to live and work but those who employ them. I dont see why we have to be prisoners of the country we are born in, except reality has it that some nations are richer than others and cannot afford too much immigration. But I want to live in poorer nations and cannot because Im american!
These are false boundries that *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** me off since I see myself born of the world and not of any nation.

The very word "Illegal" means breaking the law, so yes, that is why we use words like "decriminalization" when we talk about making drugs "legal"- the two are intertwined. Immigration control is one of the most basic, if not THE most basic, duty of the state. Following the rules of who a citizen should be, and there fore, who is entitled to all the responsibilities and privilage of that state, wherever that may lie. Yes, employers are EQUALLY culpable with the individual, like an accessory to the crime. But that DOES NOT make the individual less guilty of the crime. A country MUST defend it's borders to remain a country. This means laws regulating it's quota of immigrants. To simply allow the laws of immigration to be unenforced or loosely enforced puts the security of the state, whichever country that may be, in jeoprady, simply from the eventual economic impact of having too many poeple in too small an area.

1) So yes, they are absolutely criminals by definition. I would go as far as to say punishment for a first time offender is permanent barring from this country, and the stripping of any offspring had here from citizenship, no matter what nationality or creed or culture.

2) Unfortunately, BECAUSE of illegal immigration, and the fact that illegal immigration is a criminal enterprise, if you are only going to go half heartedly after law breakers, the next place to regulate the needed flow of immigration is in the legal area, by lowering quotas and making legal immigration much harder. This is similar to gun laws, because we don't enforce existing laws, we instead make new laws harming law abiding gun owners and having no effect on the criminals that own guns- and a variety of other examples basically along this line. Because we don't enforce an assault law against a gay person, we need to make a "hate crime" law enforcing it in another way. So, in the end, it is the law abider that is harmed, while the law breaker has no consequence for thier actions. Since I am married to a LEGAL immigrant, yes, I am very much personally effected by this. I really couldn't care less about the "taking jobs away from Americans"- I have a feeling the market will eventually take care of itself here. So that part of the debate is nothing to me. HOWEVER- AND THIS IS A BIG HOWEVER- a nation is UNDER NO OBLIGATION WHATSOEVER TO TAKE CARE OF THOSE NOT THIER CITIZENS- i.e- not required to give medical attention, school, house feed etc, some of the things you mentioned. Yes, we may do one or two of those simply out of humanitarian kindness, but only IF our own citizens are taken care of FIRST.

3) They are equally to blame, though I would argue for stiff jail sentences for the company prez that hires illegals. First time illegal aliens should be barred from ever returning, and any children born during that time stripped of citizenship. AFter that, jail terms for them and deportation, each and every time.

As stated illegal aliens are criminals by definition. They are here illegaly (against the law). A criminal is someone who commits a crime, and a crime is an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law; especially : a gross violation of law. What is so hard to understand about the word illegal in illegal alien?


If people are here illegaly from other countries, working illegaly at jobs, getting paid illegaly by businesses, they are not paying income tax. They still enjoy benefits from those tax dollars, however, and it is compensated by taxes paid by citizens. Therefore, my tax dollars are being spent to pay for people that are here against the law.


What? The businesses are criminals as well, and should be treated as such under our laws. But that doesn't make illegal immigrants law-abiding, either. Both parties are guilty and should be dealt with according to U.S. law.

Illegal aliens should not be able to take advantage of publicly funded programs such as schools.

There wouldn't be so many people, as legal immigration is controlled so that the population does not skyrocket out of control. Illegal immigration happens with no regard for the area being populated.

I agree. What needs to happen is these businesses need to be held accountable and forced to bring working conditions and wages up to a decent level. Until that happens, these businesses will continue to hire the cheapest labor available. Granting illegals the right to work in the U.S. for a brief period will not alleviate that problem.

1.)Yes, no one can argue that with the state of our present laws, that illegal immigrants are "criminals" They break the law and that is what earns them that title. However, that also begs the question-is it moral and ethical to follow a law that a person deems to be unfair? I would argue that these laws are based in part, on racism. And thus, deserve to be broken.

2.)Yes, I've personally been affected by immigration. I live in a community of 1400 people, many of whom send their children to our schools. They work in our business establishements, and I work with many of them on a daily basis. Yes, there are some bad apples in the bunch, but you can say that with every ethnic group. Our schools have expanded their ESL(English as a second language) programs to try and accomodate them. Our schools have had growing pains, but district test scores remain pretty high.

3.)I would blame the employers. The employees only want the American dream and to work jobs that Americans are themselves, too lazy to work. By keeping our present laws, we relegate the workers to their knees when it comes to dealing with their employers. I've personally known of cases where workers were injured in a meatpacking plant, but who were threatened with deportation should they tell anyone about their injury, or if they got too annoying about pay increases.

Yes they are. No one would place them on the same level of murderers for instance, but they are breaking the law.



They drive down wages. Most people start talking about picking produce but here in Arizona they take many of the construction jobs as well as work in other areas. There are such large numbers availible that it drives down wages Even the large numbers who are here legally are affected by this as they get less themselves for working. It also reduces the amount of jobs that are availible.
A lot of tax money is spent caring for their needs.
The increased demand on hospitals here in Az has driven some facilities to the point of having to shut down services. I can think of two hospitals that have shut down their maternity wards. I beleive California hospitals are also facing serious financial problems because of caring for so many illegals.
I think the illegals themselves are the worst hurt. I firmly believe the Mexican Government allows this to continue simply because they are corrupt. Mexicans are being screwed by their own. Sometimes I think that as radical as shutting down the borders is, it might possibly stir up enough unrest in Mexico that the government would have to address issues.


both. But I would actually place more blame on the employers. I would like to finally see some very serious charges leveled against companies and even individuals who hire illegals. Very heavy fines and possible jail terms for serious abuse.

Yes. The real sense of the word "criminal" means someone who has broken a law. An illegal alien has broken at least one immigration law. Therefore, an illegal alien is a "criminal" in the real sense of the word.




I am not affected individually by illegal immigration, but everyone in the country is affected in a general sense. The extent of this impact is difficult to measure. Here's how many would claim they are affected:

• 1. National security - the borders are a mess. We need to keep much better track of who's coming and going, if for no other reason than knowing where known terrorists are at all times.
  
  
  
• 2. Loss of jobs - illegal immigrants take jobs that could have been filled by citizens. Many would rebut this by saying that these jobs are ones regular citizens do not want, but this is too much of a blanket statement to be proven. Has there ever been one job that went to an illegal that a citizen wanted? If so, has there ever been 2? 5? 100? How many is too many?
  
  
  
• 3. Undermining the laws of the land. Like the War on Drugs, the immigration laws are a joke. They are rarely enforced and then are given weak fines. If we need to be serious about the laws of this country, then we need to either enforce all of them, or abolish the ones we don't want. Not make a joke out of the ones we do have. (Many would rebut this by saying, "then let's get rid of the immigration laws." I'm not rebutting that. I'm simply saying that the state of immigration now [laws that aren't enforced] is a joke.)
  
  
  
• 4. Illegals live here and benefit from programs paid by taxpayers. This is a financial argument I (and many others) find very persuasive. Welfare, medical benefits, etc. should be given to taxpayers only...especially since we seem to have a national debt.
  
  
  

Both are to blame. The employers who employ illegals do so for financial benefit. Financially it's understandable, but socially it's deplorable. And it undermines workers. Jobs should go to taxpayers only. If (as some claim) there are not enough taxpayers who want the jobs, then we need to set up a program of laws that allow this. But the current immigration system is a joke, an embarassment, a drain, and a danger on this nation.

You are correct. Article


I'm sure we can be using that $36 billion annually for something better than educating criminals' (illegals) kids



Go for it. Shut down the borders and keep them out. It's the best idea that will probably work, seeing as patrolling isn't doing the job