In recent discussions here at AD it has become apparent to me that some people feel that we should change our culture to be more like Europe.

1. In light of the Janet Jackson debate some have said that "Its just a EDITED TO REMOVE NON-MEDICAL TERM FOR ANATOMY", "In Europe this kind of stuff is no big deal",

dreampiper wrote

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Billy Jean said:


kalabus wrote:


Logix805 wrote:


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looms wrote:


Wertz wrote:



2. When we went to war with Iraq rather than listening to France, Germany, Belgium, etc people complained that "We weren't listening to our European allies", and "We can't abandon our European allies over this", and "The Europeans think we should give Iraq more time, so why are we going against their advice", etc, etc.


Questions for debate:

Why do many Americans (especially Liberals) think we should conform and "Be more like the Europeans??"

What is wrong with having different morals, values, foreign policy, etc than the Europeans have?

Is there something that attractive about European culture that we should morph culture to be more like theirs?

If European culture, values, etc are that attractive to some why don't those Americans (that obviously despise aspects of our own culture) pack up and move to Europe. Wouldn't you be more happy there?

I hope we can keep this civil because I think there is a large cultural war in America and it'll be an interesting debate.

*If the admins think this belongs in a different area feel free to move it.

Er. It doesn't look like they were saying they wanted to be more like Europeans. I think they were using Europeans as an example that a fully disclosed EDITED TO REMOVE NON-MEDICAL TERM FOR ANATOMY is not liable to completely ruin your society.


Should you be an individual for the sake of being an individual, or do you think it's better if we adopt elements of a society we find the most agreeable? Should you stubbornly cling to tradition to the detriment of society? Some Americans feel that this is what conservatives prefer.


An odd argument. America has been dictating the culture of the world for decades now, through entertainment, food and fashion trends.


Why did we need to invade Iraq? Why couldn't the Iraqis just pack up and move to America? Why even have a civil war? Wouldn't it have been better to just pack up and go to a different country?

Obviously, these Americans might love their country enough to want to change it for the better.

To preface- when you see someone doing something better or improving on what you are doing- the best thing is to improve to at least thier level.

I have travelled to nearly every country in Europe- and it is far from perfect, but in some areas they have us flat out beat- education for instance- family values both culturally and by thier laws. It behooves us to improve, we are a great country, but there is always room for improvement!



Why do many Americans (especially Liberals) think we should conform and "Be more like the Europeans??"


By whatever label you want to put on anyone that wants us to improve, there are certainly some areas they are certainly kicking our butt, as in the aforementioned areas.


What is wrong with having different morals, values, foreign policy, etc than the Europeans have?

Nothing is wrong- as long as we can also recognize our shortcomings and fix them. The problem is the arrogance of your egocentric Americans- any suggestion that someone else may have a better answer really torques us off.

Is there something that attractive about European culture that we should morph culture to be more like theirs?

I really don't want us to morph, in fact, there is more we are alike than disalike! But areas like education and medical systems we could certainly emulate and vastly improve what we have! We are just to stubborn to realize others may be right about something.

If European culture, values, etc are that attractive to some why don't those Americans (that obviously despise aspects of our own culture) pack up and move to Europe. Wouldn't you be more happy there?

Actually, more accurately, why don't conservatives pick up and move to Afghanistan, it has everything you want- unrestricted free trade, one religious system allowed, moral codes written into law- I invite all right wingers to go to a country that is such an idealistic nirvana to THEM.

I love how you equate a statement about how other countries deem the human body to an absolute of "Be more like Europeans".

Morals are subjective to the person not a country.
Values are subjective to the person not a country.
Foreign Policy is subject to the will of that country.


No one is saying you have to. We are independent people here in the US. Right? Therefore if I (as an individual) find significance in another countries culture then I have a right to accept it. If you don't then you have a right to reject it.


What?? I agree with Corvus here,
Geez, if every American that didn't agree with your definition of our culture, you might be the only one left here! I suppose your definition of an American is one that comforms to society, never speaks out, or says what they believe...

I would also add politically. It is the influence of America that has really spread the interest of democracy in the world. Other versions do not exactly match ours, but I believe our success is a factor in its acceptance.




Haven't heard that kind of junk since I was in kindergarten and some kid got upset took his toys and stomped home threatening to hold his breath forever. people who don't agree with your every thought and belief love this country as much as you claim to. They also have as much right to this country as you. You want a society that marches lockstep with others and blindly accepts their belief system no questions asked, then I believe they are recruiting at some of the enclaves up Montana way, and are looking for American versions of the Taliban. Gets very tiring to hear the right constantly whine about how they are "Persecuted" for their beleifs and they still don't recognize the hypocrisy of that kind of drivel that they spew forth and accuse others of.

Probably because, by and large, Europe is more liberal than the United States. Most European countries have a greater social safety net and higher taxes than we do.

Why do many Americans (especially Liberals) think we should conform and "Be more like the Europeans??"

Well, I'd say the "especially liberals" comment is a little bit of a jab but I'll answer anyway. I'll summarize my feelings on this by stating a few things that I like about europeans and a few things I despise about most Americans.

Europeans
- Personally I think Europeans have a much better (and correct) attitude towards work/life balance. If you go to any european country you can expect at a minimum 6 weeks of vacation and you aren't going to find people working till 9pm at night on a regular basis. Work is a way to live, not a way of life. In America, most people are lucky to get 2 weeks of vacation, but they get a guilt trip for taking it. Personally I have 5 weeks of vacation but can never take anything more than a long weekend here and there because there is "too much to do". Family is extremely important there, people here wonder why the newest generations of teenagers have turned out the way they have... the answer there is simple, their parents were too busy working to raise them. They left that to perfect strangers and MTV.

- Europeans are far more cultured and "worldly" for lack of a better word. From very early ages European children are expected to use public transportation, learn multiple languages and travel the world for vacation. This leads to more informed perspectives on the world and more tolerance for other cultures and in fact for other people in general. Obviously geography plays a factor here but european and asian excursions are actually very affordable, cheaper even than the average family vacation to Disney World.

Americans
- The one thing that I probably hate the most about most Americans is the fact that they are so evangelical with their beliefs, whatever they may be. When the black family moves into the predominantly white neighborhood, everyone eyes them suspiciously. The same goes for homosexuals and other minorities. This only intensifies when it comes to matters of religion, but I'm not even going to touch that.

- The average American probably hasn't even travelled farther away than a few states over, some never leave the state they live in. While I'll admit there are factors such as cash flow that contribute to this, it leads to a very narrow view of the world. Many parts of America are very isolated from the problems of the world and from other cultures. While I wouldn't go live in Pigalle in Paris or anything, I think that I am a more informed and well rounded person by experiencing that.

- We are so privileged, but we are all about waste. Everyone drives a huge gas hog of an SUV, we have miles and miles of 8 lane freeways, and public transportation is for poor people. No one cares that we reduce environmental standards so some factory can make more money. No one cares that we chop down an entire forrest so we can all have college ruled paper. It seems that we are all very disconnected with the plight of our planet, I don't think many people realize that the resources we have are not infinite and by taking liberties now we doom our children and our grandchildren.

What is wrong with having different morals, values, foreign policy, etc than the Europeans have?

I'm not going to suggest that everything the Europeans do is better, but there are certainly some things we could learn from. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having different morals, values etc than the Europeans. What I take issue with is those people that assume that their way is the only way and are not tolerant of those different than themselves.

Is there something that attractive about European culture that we should morph culture to be more like theirs?

In a lot of ways, yes there are more attractive things about their culture. In a lot of ways they are doing things seriously wrong that we do well. It isn't about who is which country is better, but rather what we can learn as a human race to better ourselves in general. If no one ever borrowed any ideas then we would all still be lone individuals hunting for food everyday and worried about being killed for territorial infringement.

If European culture, values, etc are that attractive to some why don't those Americans (that obviously despise aspects of our own culture) pack up and move to Europe. Wouldn't you be more happy there?

Well that is a rather childish thing to suggest. I would think that there is always a place for change. As Americans, we didn't settle this country exactly as we are today. We all came from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of beliefs and morals. We have also evolved considerably since the founding of this country. That is probably what irritates me about conservatives the most, many of them think that change is bad -- we are experiencing a moral decline they say. In fact progressiveness and being "liberal" is a far more "American" concept.

I prefer to change what little of the world I can, one day at a time. I also prefer to enjoy the hard fought freedoms of America, one of those is not having to live around people I don't fit in with. That is why you won't ever see me living in Nowheresville, Texas or something.

Since the majority of your quotes originate from the now defunct (and not a moment too soon) Janet Jackson thread I must surmise that Breasts are your greatest point of contention. The above quoted question gives me pause

Do you honestly suggest or actually believe that I should consider abandoning my 330 some odd year family American cultural heritage just because I do not agree with your somewhat limited description of what American morality is or what you think it should be. Or maybe you wish to petition the town named after my family to revoke it's name as the direct descendents of their namesake are moral anarchist whom would be really better off returning to Europe. And boy would you have a hey day with the Dedicated monument presently sitting in a church in Staten Island, I am sure the Pastor would be so inclined as to rip it right out of the pedestal it sits upon. Or possibly the museum sitting in NJ which is my ancestral home should be dismantled and sent to Europe. Seems a bit unreasonable viewed in this light, doesn't it?

In all deference I think what you're missing that is that for decades it has been Europe emulating us ---

Europeans don't demand that we Americans should be more like them - just that we should be more like ourselves.

America used to project a model for free debate and accountability - for political transparency --- all the things Europeans desperately needed after centuries of absolutism, despotism, totalitarianism, facsism and communism ---

The truth is that Europeans now seem to hold those values more real than we do and are astonished when America throws reason, diplomacy and debate away in favour of the very same cultish leadership and aggressive militarism that had only brought impoverishment and disaster to their own (many still living_ parents)

America was Europe's hope - - Our gradual transformation into an absolutist state (war at the pleasure of the king, for example - you really should read the Declaration of Indepence sometime) is horrific to a continent in which several generations of war dead still enliven every field and every trench.

Should we be Europe? Since modern Europe has only ever hoped to be America the truth is rather different - our leaders are emulating Europe - somewhere circa 1760 -


God, I hope those damned Massachusetts liberals don't have another tea party in Boston Harbor --- that would ruin everything (since most self-styled "true" Americans nowadays are simply 2nd class English aristocrats who need slaves to create and maintain their fortunes - Oh, did I say slaves - I meant work related Mexican program activities)

Oh....I've gone back --- I see now that what you really think separates Europe from America is not some ideal of freedom or politics (oh, God, how off-topic could I have been) but the everlasting and eternal question of Janet Jackson's teat.

Well, if you are a free market republican how can you complain??? Didn't "arouse" enormous interest in the broadcast? And indeed won't it virtually ensure the arrival of Ms Jackson's next album in the number one slot?

This is simply a case of a self-aggrandizing performer pretending to be apologetic before the howl of a self-aggrandizing political rump pretending to be shocked. The whole thing is just hypocrisy from beginning to end.

"A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy" Benjamin Disraeli, 1868, founder the Conservative Party.

As a parent (no young children though) I'd have thought the whole pre=ponderence of adult-humoured ads and ads for impotency FAR more embarrassing to explain to a ten year old than a simple - not in close up popping out of a tit (I've discovered most young boys actually know what a tit is - especially if as kids they were breast feed)

SO, you think it's a sign of corrupt Europeanism that - what - Janet Jackson does a boring pop number and tries to liven it up by popping a pasty covered boob??? As opposed to numerous ads about old guys needing to get stiffies to have a good love life????

Boy have you got your priorities wrong - try explaining erectile dysfunction to a ten year old.......

All I can say is I'm glad CBS refused to air that bad-taste spot about Bush and the deficit - try explaining that to your children....

Most people in Europe would answer to the statement that I am an atheist something like "Yeah, well, what else is new?". I have never gotten that reaction in the States



Prejudices are as common among Europeans as they are in America. I think that lies within the human nature.
Although homosexual marriage is allowed in some European countries it doesn't mean that people are very happy about that.
For one thing, I think racism is an even bigger problem in Europe than it is in America. France has huge problems of how to cope with its many Muslim immigrants, in Germany Turks are too often the declared scapegoat for most economical and social problems.

Nevertheless I agree with almost all of the replies above. Good to see that some Americans know that their country isn't all perfect.

I'm back again

everytime I go back and see Venom's original complaint......

I just find new things to wonder about......


The degeneration of family values - the sell-out for profit - is NOT a liberal value.

CBS can with a straight face cancel the dubious Reagan miniseries and shun the moveon.org ad but yet - without even thinking about it - give over the entire half-time of the Super-bowl to MTV.....

Oh, yes, that must be those damned liberals.

The Republican party cannot ultimately hold these two truths to be equal - you can not have a market-oriented view to capitalism while pretending to sustain family values. You can try and blame the contradictions on progressives - but in reality you must know that those of us who support nativism, fair pay, unions, good education are all doing so because we deeply belive that the family should not be torn asunder by the demands of an atheistic and ridiculous devotion to a notion that whatever sells must be good.

Now whose side are you on?

Drugs dealers say they are simply fufilling a market need - Republicans say they must put every drug user in jail (if they're black) and in rehab (if they're white)

George Bush says that we've freed Afghanistan since opium production is up a staggering 4000%!!!!!!!!!!!

The family was not and is not destroyed by progressives but by those callow SOBS who think of nothing but making a buck.......


American liberals are the truer conservatives now - fiscally as well - I can't see a thing about the current non-european style leadership of america that is in keeping with the values of any family but the mafia's.

Europeans didn't invent breasts you know - GOD DID - so sad that you think being anxiety ridden about them is a good thing --- you should be talking about the values of CBS in exploiting them for ratings and controversary as opposed to arguing whether breasts in and of themselves are a sign of European degeneracy....

Are you that big a sap??????

Woohoo! I love tests!



Oh, well, those are fun too.



I don't know any Europeans. Wouldn't know one if I saw one. (A joke, I say a joke there son.) But if they've nothing against a bare breast on television, I say they've got the right attitude. It's kind of like that moment in the Michael Keaton movie where he gives the speech to all of his Detroit auto-building co-workers about the Japanese having the American spirit. This isn't a 'European' value. This is a choice that will be made exclusively by power-holders mainstream America. And if America decides it'll allow breasts on TV, then there'll be breasts on TV.

Of course if you think this is a decision for 'the people', and that 'the people' are no longer in power in America, you can change your political affiliation to either extremely conservative or extremely liberal. Seems only the fringes understand that point.



Nothing. It's a free country. Hate the Europeans all you want pal. Hell, catch me when Married... With Children is on and I'll hate'em right along-side Al. Or just realize that you're different from them, and that your judgements don't have to be based on theirs. Sure you can be on the opposite side of the issue without making your decision 'anti-European'. By the same vein I can agree with them without it having anything to do with their policy. Maybe I can generally agree that some things are just good ideas.



To be honest, I dunno. I haven't done my homework and don't know much about European countries. In fact, I'd say with the EU, they're loosely beginning to model their culture after ours. We should let our culture evolve as it may, and if it happens to be more like theirs (or the antithesis of theirs), well, whatever. Let the chips fall where they may.



Are you telling me that there aren't any aspects of our culture that you don't like? How about the fact that there was breast shown on TV during the half-time of the Superbowl? Hm? Were you a fan of that? Probably not. That, sir, is 'your' culture. And mine. Maybe if you don't like it, you should move to someplace where they think women should stay covered, like Iran.

No, I didn't mean that last paragraph. I'm just trying to point out the hostility that people see when they read your last paragraph. America isn't just a 'culture', it's a 'counter-culture' as well. Many cultures, all thrown in together. And sometimes there are disturbances. In the end we'll either kill each other or work out our differences. Here's to hoping it's the latter.

Jeffool.

I think this debate itself is framed in a very Americanocentric view of the world (although considering the forum thats in itself aint suprising).
'Europeans' as a type don't really exist - and I can assure you that Janet Jacksons little stunt would NOT have gone down very well in many parts of Europe (other than to reaffirm some very unfair stereotypical views of Americans ).

The liberal / 'socialist' bits of Europe are generally Germany, France, Netherlands (although I think they follow more anglo-american business practices) and the Scandinavian ones, which are generally liberal (although they do have limits). Austria & Switzerland is considerably more conservative as are Italy, Spain<Uk, Eire and central & Eastern Europe. To be honest, attitudes towards nudity, religion, the role of govt, racism etc all varies hugely within Europe, which is a very crowded continent. The Polish are very religious, the French are more secular.

Some parts of the US struck me as being very similar to some parts of Europe, other parts are very different. To be honest though, I think the differences are quite small when compared to say, Asia or Africa.

What this debate really looks like to me is: should America be more liberal. which really has very little to do with Europe, as it can be very un-liberal.

Back when I was in college (1971-75), it was a popular notion that the US would eventually become more European in its ways.

Man, was that ever optimistic!

We have done just the opposite.

Bigger vehicles, sprawling growth, self-worth tied to size of house, horrible entertainment, vacuous politics, and anal retention.

Did I mention rampant fraud?

Anyway, the European ideal being talked up was to make communities where you could walk to work, pick up fresh food on the way home, eat a relaxed dinner, read a book or some such self-fulfilling activity, hit the sack, get up early, read a book or some such self-fulfilling activity, go to work, accomplish something, and repeat.

Then take off some weeks of vacation to do something self-fulfilling or even important to society (other than daily work).

Granted, this was an idealized European model. I'm not sure where the notion originated, but it was a popular thing for college students to talk about. I think the basic ideal was to simplify and do more with less.

Well, that didn't work out. The sickness that we knew in the nostalgic 1950s (Death of A Salesman) became a new paradigm of neurosis as keeping up with the Joneses transformed into beating the dickens out of those Joneses.

So you are pretty okay with an oversized pickup truck, but the real winners run Hummers!

You know, to pick up tainted food from the ultra super duper market or fast food joint, depending on how much of your time has been sucked up in the pursuit of happiness. Or fat paycheck, depends on definition.

And now, the Super Duper Ultra Media-centric Commercial called the superbowl.

What, there was a football game? Nope, it was a Jackson infomercial.

Did you know she has what other women have?

Ohmygosh! Gasp! Horrors! Hide the childrens' eyes!

Even though God made those tah-tahs for kids.

But don't think. Just react. There's no possibility of us ever becoming anything like Europeans.

Maybe. Maybe not. We've yet to get humbled like Europe. And times have changed. And times, they keep on a-changing. Some have been humbled with the street staring them down (unemployment, lack of safety nets, did I mention rampant fraud?).

So hide those tah-tahs, women of America. Keep our children neurotic and good consumers chasing the material satiation dream. The never-ending, always more, pathetic dream that has at its end . . .

emptiness and a living sort of hell.

So should we become more like Europe? Nope. We should become more like the idealized European of my college days. That is to say, more free within ourselves.

BTW, I skipped the superbowl this year. Good thing too because overexposure to tah-tahs can lead to blindness and/or hair growth on palms! That was a close one.

I think america should be america. I believe this country is better than european countrys with our governmental system (corrupt as it may be ) and our society is more independent.

Europe and europeans (minus england in my opinion) are just different. They seem to be me conformed than us..

We have alot of stupid aspects but alot of good ones too.

Europe, is very secularist, im the kind of person that believes let anybody do what they want and we should respect that. (unless its some whacked out crazy thing that our society would seem to dictate nutty) But in france just recently the consideration of banning beards from public schools because they might be religious?? How stupid. Who is the beard hurting?

but anyways, I'm for america just being ourselves. I hope we dont become like europe, and I dont think we will. we've become the imperialist nation for the time being and the last thing we should do is adopt someone elses culture completley. we're leaders, not followers.

I wouldn't agree with that. Many Europeans are quite anti-authoritarian, they are very suspicious of what their government does. After 9/11 you wouldn't find a handful of people that were suspicious about the actions of their government. Its a speculation, but I suppose there would have been much more of a debate if a similar attack would have struck a European country.


I can recall that in Georgia /Alabama they have just crossed Evolution off the curriculum in high school. We don't want to start about what is stupid and what is not.

Nobody should become more like someone else. Everyone has to find his own way, many things that work for Europeans might not works in America and vice versa. You have to try out things and implement them if it turns out they are good for your people, as well as you can adopt things that work well in other countries.

For example, many countries have used America as a model for their own governmental system. It turns out that almost all of those countries have slipped into civil war or had some kind of coup. It may not have worked for them as it did for the US because its not the ideal way for them.

Just a little fact correcting. It's only a proposal: UPI Article It will be voted on in May. Most legislators & citizens feel it is a stupid idea. Please don't base your opinions on life in the US based on some silly proposal like this. Back to the debate...

Right back at you: Please don't judge life in Europe based on considerations.

The [stupid] battle over Evolution however has been going on for years. That tells me that there are enough people to support Creationism...

Let's try to be fair on both sides.

My experience with europeans has been strictly limited to interaction via the internet. you must have a better idea of the structure and social life of the typical european because your located at the heart of them. So i'll take your word for it..

Seeing as I've not otherwise debated in this thread, I've made NO judgments on Europe or any other place to live, so I don't know what you're trying to imply. I was merely trying to help out by supplying factual information regarding my state. I'll just bow out now and stop trying to be helpful. Enjoy the debate.

I've got a question about that. While I'm sure their is an anti-authoritarian strain in Europe (In America too, nobody really trusts politicians :lol) I wonder just how strong is is. Case in point, The very authoritarian law about to pass in France. Would other European countries try something like this? If so, you bet they're more conformed than Americans!

I feel that Europe is idolized mainly because the grass is always greener of the other side (The politicians too. :wink2)). It has comparable standards of living but sort of an exotic appeal to Americans. That and it's seen as more liberal so of course many liberals would extol its virtues (and ignore its vices).

Nothing is wrong with being different from Europe. Americans must choose their own path, maybe we'll be more like Asia is a few centuries. :shrug

I think this whole issue has Nothing to do with becoming more European at all.

As has been pointed out earlier, so much vitriol was spewed at jackson for revealing one breast, while not a single comment was made for the revealing of a tiny thong-clad female butt in an add for a TV show shown during the same event.

I dont think the US knows what it wants, it can accept tremendous violence and slaughter on TV, but has a collective apoplexy when childen are exposed to a (gasp) breast! Oh, but wait, breasts are on display everywhere, from Baywatch to magasine covers, the breast is the focus of much of the media of the western world, so what is the problem? Ah, but this was a fully exposed breast, they actually showed the NIPPLE!

Kids can watch the latest Video by Britanny Spears, Toxic, in which absolutely everything except the nipple is revealed, she crawls around lustily and engages in simulated sex acts, and thats just dandy, but GOD fobid a nipple should make its way onto the airwaves!

After all do you have any idea the psychological damage that could be caused to a child if they were prematurely exposed to the highly guarded secret of nipples?


This whole thing borders on mass hysteria, and I for one find it hilarious.

I think you might be misunderstanding the conflict. Americans have come to accept violence and sex on cable because it is considered a extra service with looser guidelines. It is silly to assume Americans have a fixation with nipples on the basis of this incident. Believe me many Americans complain about violence on TV and Britanny Spears...

Broadcast TV is the vanishing refuge of family-friendly television. The Super-Bowl is supposed to be about football (real football ). It's all about the time and place...

Is this a uniquely American concept?

Really?

I guess you consider Jerry Springer and Soap Operas, which are on broadcast TV, as family-friendly programing then?

I said vanishing didn't I?

Soap Operas usually avoid times when kids are at home. I don't know what to do with Springer.

Maybe the Teletubbies can balance it out...

Nope! Remember, according to Rev. Falwell, they're gay...

Sorry Jaime, I may have been unclear about my intention:

I felt like you were taking sides with GreenRiver because you told me: Yet his opinion of Europe was also based on a consideration.
Didn't mean to lash out on you, just trying to point out there are silly considerations in the US as well.



To be honest, that is just my experience that I gained by discussing politics with friends. For they are all about my age, that antiauthoritarian mood might be related to the age as well.
Maybe Europeans are not less conformists than Americans, but they just tend to bitch about them more.

One reason why Europeans might be less inclined to agree with their representatives' politics is because there are only very few ways to influence them. Referendums are almost none-existent. Once the election is over the public has only demonstrations and the media to put pressure on the government. Therefore they are less inclined to believe their politicians on anything, so they bitch about them all the time. It's a rather sorry democracy, but it still works.

It looks to me that its you and others that keep going back to the "boo boo" issue. I simply used it as an exampe and I'm sorry I did. I also find it funny that people keep pointing to the commercials as if I think they are ok for children. If you look in the topic you keep referring to I acknowlede that the commercials are bad for children as well. I have also stated over and over that its not just because a boob was shown that many Americans and myself are upset. Its where it was done and its everything that was done leading up to that moment.

I didn't want this debate to revolve around the Jackson incident. No one has debated my second point having to do with our use of military force. Some seem to think that the opinions of the Europeans should hold more water that of our own government.

Billy Jean.....you have been a stauch supporter of what went on at the Super Bowl yet in another thread you said this:



Do you honestly believe that Ms. Jackson was being respectful to parents and children? Was her performance considerate to the people watching, especially the families that were there and couldn't "just turn it off?". I'd say she was definitly self consumed with her interests and not the interests of the people she was performing for.

I used the Janet Jackson incident only to point out that people want our values on public acts of sexuality to be more like that of some European countries. I simply want to know why that is and why we shouldn't teach our children that sexuality should not be a public thing. My question is how is this kind of behavior good for young children?

Lets drop Janet Jackson and focus on overt sexuality on network television. How is it a positive thing for young children?

Do they have a lot of referendums in America? The point of representative democracy is that we elect people to make decisions for us, so we can get on with our lives and someone else manages the 'bigger' picture & broadly looks after my interests.

Many European governments held (or plan to hold) referendums on the EU & the Euro.

Fair enough. Allow me to attempt, though I'll largely be repeating what I said before. It's coming across that you seem to think that the Americans who agreed with Europe were just piggy-backing European opinion, rather than actually having those genuine feelings. And when one country declares war on another country, it's not a 'national issue'. It is indeed a 'world issue'. If Mexico declared war on Canada, bet your tuckus (did I just use 'tuckus'?) that the US would have something to say in the matter. Mainly, we'd just say "Knock it off," hand Mexico South Texas, and Canada the NHL and beer, and the war would be over.

What we (Americans opposed to the war, and Americans more free with the human body, both groups which I'm in, but not always the same group) are saying is that "You know, these are important issues. And we'd like to point out that while we may be a minority, there are millions more people who agree with us. We're not 'morally-corrupt', or 'Anti-America', we just have differing opinions and are trying to point out they don't cause the end of the world.

The Anti-Iraq-War protests held around the world was the largest day of protesting in history. I find it kind of disturbing that this was totally ignored. Any time two nations conflict, it's a worldwide issue, and should be treated as such. This is why we formed the League of Nations and the UN.

And the growing sexuality on TV? Well, I blame capitalism and the general sense of 'trying to make a buck'. But that said, I've got nothing against nudity on TV. I'm one of those wackos who thinks freedom is absolute. It's like the old Abbie Hoffman line. "Free speech is the right to yell "Theater" in a crowded fire." He's the same guy, facetiously, who advocated children killing their parents on public radio.

And it's kind of like the whole trial surrounding George Carlin's Seven Dirty Words bit where the FCC, in my opinion, hijacked the public airwaves. I don't think the FCC should regulate 'taste'. I think people should, by not watching what they don't approve of. Sure, you can't be with your child every minute, but aren't V-chips mandatory these days? Don't they block out shows based on the TV Rating? If I'm not mistaken, if a show is going to use nudity, or has the potential, they have to have at least the TV Rating of TV-14, right?

All the technology for protecting your child from what you disapprove of is there, if you'd use it. You may hope for the SuperBowl to be safe, but it WAS rated TV14. Meaning that no one under the age of 14 should be watching it without tight parental control. And if you don't want your 15 year old knowing about female anatomy... Well, maybe you could just gouge their eyes out.



Damn, I slid back into the Jackson fiasco for a second there. My apologies pal, it's just a recent (and popular) example of the greater argument. But, no one is saying that sexuality is a good thing for children. I'm not sure why you seem to think that everything on television is supposed to be good for children? There are people who don't have children, and people who can control their children, who also watch television.

// Edited for a grammatical error. My dumb.

Man I was a good kid until that one day when I bought a British Maxim instead of a regular maxim and I saw a girls EDITED TO REMOVE NON MEDICAL TERM FOR ANATOMY. Now I am selling drugs, groping strangers on the street and flunking. Social conservatism in a free society doesnt work.


As for the war I didnt agree with France or Germany. Neither nation said Iraq didnt have WMD. They were not right by principle but look better by circumstance. I do not want to look more like Europe. I want the US to realize that nakedness (in this case near nakedness for half a second ) isnt corrupting our society. I do not want things American to come apart. I do not want to lose the work ethic. However Europe is a model in certain regards. As far as social liberties and rights are concerned they are ahead of us. Their laws are so much more laxed in regards to sex and drugs and they have a hundreth of our crime rate. Their societies are not in moral decline. All the logical observations tell me that conservatism and restriction (the heart and soul of republican ideology) actually pushes crime not vice versa.

Oh yes the Janet backlash. An upcoming show on ER that shows a glimse of a 72 year old woman's nipple has been edited out. Thank god CBS took this shot out because everyone knows every child would instantly start flooding retirement homes pulling up old ladies shirts.

What is so terrible about being more like the Europeans? Are we that bad? Seriously, I don't think that any liberal Americans, or any other kind, want you to become identical to Europeans, just move in our direction on some issues like sexuality, the environment, public life, work/life balance.

I think it's more that they are saying to their domestic politcal opponents, among whom you would seem to number yourself, "see, there ideas that you find so offensive are not so terrible, since several hundred million people - with whom we have more in common than any other population group on the planet - manage to practice policies like the ones we advocate without collapsing into anarchy, falling dramatically behind economically ..." and so on.

QUOTE

What is wrong with having different morals, values, foreign policy, etc than the Europeans have?

Nothing. What is wrong with wanting to have more similar morals to Europeans while still remaining American?

QUOTE

Is there something that attractive about European culture that we should morph culture to be more like theirs?

300 million Europeans can't be wrong (Frogive me for plagiarising an American ad man.)

QUOTE

Many do - I know three ex-pat, non-military-related* Americans that live here. None of them are ashamed of who they are (unless Dubya has recently made one of his more spectacular verbal blunders - two of them are teachers of drama and English), but all of them will admit they have become somewhat more liberal since they came here. Maybe they have "gone native". Or maybe respite from the relentless right-wingery of modern America allows them to form their own opinions.

*This is a necessary distinction, I think, since people who live, work, and socialise among the British in the same way that native Britons do will have a different view of us from someone that spends most of their time on an American military base here. There isn't really a reverse anaology that isn't offensive (the only one I could think of was Disneyland, and I don't want to equate actors in cartoon costumes with honourable servicemen and women and their families, even thought it has a sense of seeing another country through a prism most natives do not have), since I don't know of any foreign military bases on US soil.

Lastly, the current media scandal this side of the pond is the current UK version of "I'm A Celebrity - Get Me Out Of Here!", where John Lydon (a.k.a. Johnny Rotten of The Sex Pistols), on live network TV, watched by 14 million adults and children, called the voting public, er, the "f" word followed by the plural "c" word, for not voting him out so he could go home.

This shocking outburst rated lots of tabloid coverage, including in the largest-selling British newspaper The Sun (you know the one that has topless women every day on page three, is owned by that nice American citizen Rupert Murdoch, and one of whose regular, cartoonishly-surgeried models is another of the "celebrities" asking to be "got out"), but rather less than 100 complaints to the TV channel that broadcast it and its regulator.

It seems that not only are the Brits more sangine about the idea of an unexpected live TV breast-flash than our US cousins (or else why is a topless model even there?), but we aren't much surprised when the granddaddy of shock music and TV says the rudest words on telly. He was, after all, one of the first to say the "f" word back in 1977 in the punk heyday.

I suspect that this is one European attitude most liberal Americans would not want to emulate us on.
But hey, punk is not dead!
If there was a poll tomorrow, I suspect John Lydon would beat Tony Blair for PM, since at least Johnny says what's on his mind. I'd vote for him.

Wow! I remember when my grandmum smacked me for saying the brits were European
Guess times have changed and you have become European... that would explain the massive slide in British morals and the rampaging hordes...

But this entire debate is rather funny. I see both sides... I have met Americans who fervently believe the Europeans have got everything right and we should remake the US in the EU image, and I also know many Americans who would rather eat Freedom Fries and make Freedom Kisses than get a hint of Europeanness on themselves (which is rather amusing since French fries came from Belgium and American French kisses are much different from real French Kisses )

What I think happens is Europe is often painted by US media as the liberal oasis of the world. Thus, liberals may take a vacation or two in Amsterdam and Paris and then come home and want home to be like these wonderful vacation spots. Then a conservative will hear about all the excesses of the "liberal europe" and then think any liberal opening their mouth espousing a liberal idea is just trying to be European. Then of course the argument quickly degenerates into the why don't you leave the country if you don't like it - which is really bizarre considering America was founded on the ideas of a few people who wanted to change the country rather than leave it (they could have gone to France after all )

But being the product of several cultures (British, German, born and bred, through and through Southerner) I've been able to see a few places as more than a guest/tourist. This is why I think the ideas of Europeans having this fabulous balance of work and family is complete *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. ***. True, some of the societies are set up differently so that it may be EASIER for someone to find a balance between work and family (esp women who can get paid leave for 2 years after having the baby)... but, it actually all comes down to the individual family itself. I have met products of dysfunctional European and American families. In the end, I don't think it would have mattered if the families had been from a different country, or held the general values of a different society, if the basic root of the dysfunction was unchanged (like one spouse belief in unfaithfulness being OK and the other not, or parents not seeing a need to be a large part of their child's life, etc).

I have seen problems faced in several countries, and the various ways they are dealt with, and have determined that the root problem is not that people are from a certain nationality, but that the society is made up of humans instead of preprogrammed automatons. The issue of prejudice and race relations is always funny, because I was once told the Germans were very tolerant and did not have race problems. I soon realized the speaker was talking about the Germans not having a problem between black and white folks. Of course, this is because there is a general black population of about 2 people in all of Germany (of course I exagerate.. I heard there was a whole family of four in Munchen). But there are some very serious clashes between the Turkish immigrants and the Germans - and in some areas between Christians and Muslims - but because to we Amercians the clashing parties appear to be of the same race/creed, we think of these problems as not race related.

So, this post is getting way too long - but my point is, most Americans have no real experience with the day to day lives of any Europeans. They think that what they see and experience as a tourist is applicable to not only a single nation, but to an entire continent (I will never forget a woman who visited poland for two weeks and showed me a picture of an old fashioned out house and then she carefully explained that all toilets in europe were like this and I should be careful if I ever went back to Germany... where I and my mother were born!) So, when people stereotype so broadly, Europe either becomes the liberal nirvana or the liberal Gammorrha (sp?). In the end, I would never want the US to become just like Europe - in fact, some things I would adamantly oppose - such as state sponsored churches and religious education in public schools - but it is easy to point to a particular program used in Europe or another foreign country as proof that some of my liberal ideas can work on a large scale. Something people always want - Proof that an idea can be applied. Of course, I can also look to other cultures (even European ones) and use them as examples of programs that would not work so to refute an idea from an opponent (take the Religious education in public schools and the low church attendence in Germany).

I think most cultural stereotypes are very fascinating - I come to American as a ten year old and people think I am a socialist, fascist, anti-semitic and a neo-nazi... all before I even know what these terms mean. I go back to Germany or England and people think I am a close-minded conservative christian bible beater who loves levi jeans and boy bands. Then people on both sides of the pond are shocked to find I am not a stereotype but a real person!

I'm not sure about the values part, so I'll leave that one for another discussion.

Yes, there is something that is more attractive about their culture than that of our own. We have kids who watch Jackass, and who are ignorant about the meaning of the Battle of Tours or the destruction of the Spanish Armada. We have folks engrossed in materialistic "me-me" culture, but who have no exposure to visiting museums rich in culture and history. We have a thousand and one fast food joints, but I for one would love to dine at a "slow food" place that is actually *ethnic* Sadly, even this is changing in Europe. Try eating ethnic food in Ireland-you'll be more likely to hit a McDonald's before you do.

Why not move?-there is still hope. Visiting museums, attending plays, and reading something more complicated than Mad magazine are all ways that we can improve our culture. I'm not an eltist snob or anything of the like. I indulge in the occassional trash "escapis" culture myself when the seriousness of my workplace gets to me.

You ask for civility-but how civil was the last question that you posted? I ask this not to start a personal fight or anthing, but how can you read that last question and view it to be civil?

I think majorly we have to change fast food, for the reason that almost half of our population is "fat" just because of fast food and other crap like that don't you think?

locke1

You sound somewhat sarcastic-but o.k., I'll take the bait. If a foreigner came to America and asked what the number one cultural dish was, what would you offer them?? Is it the happy meal!? I mean, the French have their famous wines and bread, the Italians are famous for wonderful food, and the Germans are notable for their beer

Denmark already has some tough laws in place regarding this sort of thing... but at the same time, the Danish population has resisted both this and the last government on membership of the Euro currency, and in general, integrated EU membership.

Most people over here don't trust the government, but at the same time, they don't have the distance from the government that Americans appear to have. GW Bush is so far removed from the citizens of America that he appears like a god in heaven when compared to the Danish PM. We just don't have that distance over here. At least not in Scandinavia.

Anders Fogh Rasmussen (The Danish PM) is also guarded and remote, thats not what I mean, but he is a part of the system, held accountable, vulnerable to the whim of the people.
There is nothing to be scared of.


Why do many Americans (especially Liberals) think we should conform and "Be more like the Europeans??"

Because they think Europe is better? Maybe they look at Europe and like what they see?
Europe is comfortable, and safe. If you are poor, especially in the north, you can be supported by the state. If your ill, your medical care is already paid for by the high taxes.
If your rich, and you don't want to pay tax, you cheat. Its the European way.

I wonder... why do some many Europeans think we should conform and 'be more like Americans'?


What is wrong with having different morals, values, foreign policy, etc than the Europeans have?

It depends on which morals you have... which morals do you think Europeans have? In Spain they torment bulls and kill them for fun. In Denmark, kicking a dog will land you a very hefty fine.

Which morals do Americans have that we don't? The freedom to carry a gun? Is that a moral? I don't know. But I do know that your chances of being shot in Europe are tiny compared to America.

Europe is comfortable, and safe


Is there something that attractive about European culture that we should morph culture to be more like theirs?

Yes. Millions of things. You should adopt our fast food culture, our love of cinema, our interest in pornography, our love of automobiles, our fascination with celebrities, our curiosity regarding space exploration, and our need to love.


If European culture, values, etc are that attractive to some why don't those Americans (that obviously despise aspects of our own culture) pack up and move to Europe. Wouldn't you be more happy there?

Alas... We don't let Americans just move in any more. They'd need to aquire permission like any other immigrant.

Well, being from Georgia, I've got to say my granny's cooking is by far THE American dish. Especially some dessert. When it comes to good food, few meals are better than those you kill/clean/pick yourself. Mmmm.

But I think you're overlooking something that I think is very important in this regard. The US is frickin huge. Sure, we're completely swamped in monotonous culture as far as the eye can see, but we DO have a lot of local favorites. Just because we don't have one for our entire country doesn't mean we don't have them. We just regionalize them. And while I've never been to Europe, does the average French citizen really pride themselves on their wine? I don't give much thought to a fresh meal of mashed potatoes, corn, and chicken. It's nothing like KFC.

Then there's Cajun, Tex-Mex, etc, etc.



Which is funny, as I think comics are one of the places that American culture is at its' best. But plenty of folks do go to museums. They do read. Don't believe me? Then why are Barnes & Nobles and Borders everywhere? Sure it's usually stuff like Danielle Steele, but hey, one step at a time. Look at TV. Sure, most of it's crap, but for the amount of time I DO waste on it, I find my shows of choice entertaining. And that's what it's really about, right? I mean, does any look at entertainment as a means of enlightenment? Movies, shows, music, books; things done for entertainment are just that.

Jeffool-BTW, I love cajun crawfish! I visited my sister in down in Pascagula Miss. five years ago and just loved them. Fifty cents a bag from the local 7-11. It was the only thing I ate for about a week while I was down there. Yes, I can see that perhaps what dish you like is more of a regional thing. Good point there.

And I can see that yes, we do have quite the proliferation of Barnes & Nobles and the like. Yes, Danielle Steele sells big, but these stores also have philosophy and classical works sections chocked full of Nietzsche, Bronte, Voltaire, and eastern philosophy.

Perhaps it isn't that people want us to be like Europe culturally, but to be like Europe in terms of foreign policy?(i.e.-to cooperate rather than be belligerent?)

Then again-are we as educated in the field of history as people in other nations are?

"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"-Blutarsky in "Animal House"

Man, if I could get Henry Rollins to run, I'd vote for him. Hell, even Jello Biafra. For that matter, I'd be cool with getting Lydon into our government somewhere.

But sadly, I don't think any of these people would win. It'd take too much money to get the job done, as there's no way they could get decent coverage by the media. Then again, not sure if they should, just because they're famous.

And seriously pal. Us not wanting your attitude? You're talking 'dirty language' on TV. We just went buck-wild and decided to blow up two countries with no proof or reason and dared anyone to stop us! We're nuts!


Note: The above was for comedic effect only. Relax. It's all good in the hood. We're working on getting rid of all these 'Imperialist' types. But they're like cockroaches. You think it's a done job, then out of nowhere, another infestation.

I was only stating that are fast food is destroying are society and what i mean is that a lot of familys instead of cooking and having a family meal they go out and get Mc.donalds or Burger king, but we as the U.S also have fancy wines and food for instance, we have pork "ribs" or beef "steak" and california is also a large proccesore of fine wine. so like i said fast food is the virus of are society.

Locke1

Which liberals are you referring to? The Europeans don't conform to each other, either. Moif mentioned that there is far from consensus regarding membership in the E.U.

And the Brits? I don't consider them European, but a law unto themselves. But it depends on the Britisher you talk to.



I imagine that if one looked hard, s/he would find some European(s) with morals and values that are quite similar. As far as foreign policy goes, there are many, many, if not all European countries that have been invaded and occupied by another force in a war. (The Hundred Years War comes to mind.) This might partially explain their general aversion to starting a fight with another country.



It would be good for this country to value art and music more than it does, to not consider cutting fine arts from high school curricula. It would be nice to see more preservation of historic sites on this side of the water, instead of opting for big new office buildings or parking lots for them.

Long vacations--hey--that would be great! George W. Bush takes vacations like that.

Not having to do without health care because you can't afford it is something that many Americans would welcome. Instead, emergency rooms here end up seeing the people who cannot afford the visit, so those who can afford get higher bills and insurance companies raise their premiums. Why not just cover everyone's health care outright instead? We're paying for it already.



Why should I leave my home? Why shouldn't I exercise my freedoms and contact Congresspeople and vote for a better way? But I would love to visit Europe.

QUOTE
'Not having to do without health care because you can't afford it is something that many Americans would welcome. Instead, emergency rooms here end up seeing the people who cannot afford the visit, so those who can afford get higher bills and insurance companies raise their premiums. Why not just cover everyone's health care outright instead? We're paying for it already.'

I'm sorry, but you just stepped all over the American goal in that statement. You are basically saying that people without enough money don't even have the right to live. You are saying that those who cannot afford to get medical attention should die, and be happy about it. That insults my views of everything I believe this country is trying to build.


QUOTE OF A QUOTE
If European culture, values, etc are that attractive to some why don't those Americans (that obviously despise aspects of our own culture) pack up and move to Europe. Wouldn't you be more happy there?

THANK YOU!!!! MY VIEWS EXACTLY!!

QUOTE
Why should I leave my home? Why shouldn't I exercise my freedoms and contact Congresspeople and vote for a better way? But I would love to visit Europe.

You should leave because you don't like what is here, but what is there. If that is the case go there, and don't stay here.


Why should we Americans change to be like someone else? Since when have we ever gone with the crowd?! If we decide to change our ways to be like someone else, there will be no 'American Way.' Don't like what is going on here?-Leave. That simple. Why should we have to change for everyone else's needs? If they want to come here, they should change for us, not the other way around!

What is it about supporting the idea of single payer health care that is "stepping all over the American goal," friend? As it happens, I am unemployed and I cannot afford to get the health care I need, so you're really barking up the wrong tree!

The truth is that our current insurance and health systems are not efficient, and they are not able to provide care to all who need it. I want to see a system where every person is cared for under a universal health care plan, so that quality health care isn't just for the well-insured or rich. That appears to be a European value as well.

Now tell me what you believe this country is trying to build. I have my liberal status out for posters to see!

Please read the post a little more carefully, then maybe you won't be quite so willing to pack my bags for me. I might actually be on your side.


Jesus said from the cross, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Paladin...I apologize. A friend read the post over the phone to me and gave me wrong info. Now that I have had read it myself, I realize that he changed a few words that totally changed the meaning of the entire passage. I apologize for 'attacking' that view point. I agree that health care should be for everyone, money or no money (As you may have guessed from my reply).

My admitting this point has, unfortunately, negated your second question, but I will do my best to answer it anyway: America is trying to make living less stressful, generally easier, and for everyone.

Anyway, I will have to hit my friend a few times for the misdirection, and I apologiza once again. I think maybe I should read the topics, and then write the replies myself next time, eh?

P.S. Kudos Paladin, you know your theology. Good job. Sorry about the whole $5 thing, I don't know how I could pay you even if I had the cash. Good job though.

No problem, Talyn. I appreciate your passion in favor of health coverage for all.

I'm in no hurry for my country to be more like Europe. I just want America to be fairer to its people.

Welcome to the forum.

Of course we are as edjucated about are history "just as much as any other nation" its just that the public schools only show the good things we have done in any of are major wars or accomplishments Its not like the will show the massacre of a refuge camp because of a miss calculation.

By the way it was the Japanese that bombed pearl harbor.

I don't agree with the premise of this thread. Who thinks we need to be more like Europe? Your statement is a gross oversimplification.

Look at it like this: Europe is the 'political parent' of the West (of which you and I are a part). We (the U.S.) are like the spoiled adolescent stepchild. Whether you like it or not this is the way we are perceived around the world. Now if your parents got a divorce (WWI and WWII), would you just reject every influence that they tried to influence on you? You would be a fool if you did. Also, your children will likely be rebellious but for the fact that they see this attitude in their parent.

Now the citizens of present day Europe are not necessarily the best informed. Nor are they any older than us. However, their HISTORY is much, much older and one has to recognize that one's history affects their culture and who they are today.

We need to stop thinking 'we're all growed up' and 'we's don't needs nobodys to tells us whats to do'.

...and it is that silly characterization that is at the root of much of this problem.

Simply put, nations aren't people and the metaphor is extremely misleading. The history of American people is no shorter than that of European. The history of the government is but that does not have the same affect on culture that your assertion would.

It is more than a little insulting to imply that thousands of years of history were lost on American the moment they declared independence while European (who have themselves been through revolutions) somehow remember.


Mass amnesia?