Full Version: Freedom of Association
QUOTE
LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. -- The incoming president of the U.S. Golf Association will not give up his membership at Augusta National, despite protests from a women's group that his credibility is damaged by belonging to a golf club that has no female members.
Fred S. Ridley was elected Saturday as president of the USGA, which sets the rules for golf in the United States and Canada and runs 13 national championships.
<snip>
Martha Burk, head of the National Council of Women's Organizations, demanded Ridley explain how he can belong to all-male clubs, while leading an organization with anti-discriminatory policies.
"His membership in Augusta is particularly damaging to the credibility of the Girls Golf program, which the USGA co-sponsors with the LPGA," Burk said in a statement. "He is teaching girls that they can learn to play golf, but they will grow up to be second-class citizens in the sport."
Ridley said he sees nothing inconsistent about his role with the USGA and his memberships.
"I feel that where I play golf really doesn't have anything to do or has any impact on me doing the best job I can for the USGA," Ridley said.
http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?...artnersite=espn
Fred S. Ridley was elected Saturday as president of the USGA, which sets the rules for golf in the United States and Canada and runs 13 national championships.
<snip>
Martha Burk, head of the National Council of Women's Organizations, demanded Ridley explain how he can belong to all-male clubs, while leading an organization with anti-discriminatory policies.
"His membership in Augusta is particularly damaging to the credibility of the Girls Golf program, which the USGA co-sponsors with the LPGA," Burk said in a statement. "He is teaching girls that they can learn to play golf, but they will grow up to be second-class citizens in the sport."
Ridley said he sees nothing inconsistent about his role with the USGA and his memberships.
"I feel that where I play golf really doesn't have anything to do or has any impact on me doing the best job I can for the USGA," Ridley said.
http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?...artnersite=espn
Questions for debate:
Can Ridley belong to all-male clubs, while leading an organization with anti-discriminatory policies?
Should all men's golf clubs be prohibited?
Is the LPGA considered inferior to the PGA?
Are women treated as second class citizens since they aren't allowed to play in the PGA?
QUOTE(Beladonna @ Feb 11 2004, 12:31 PM)
Questions for debate:
Can Ridley belong to all-male clubs, while leading an organization with anti-discriminatory policies?
Can Ridley belong to all-male clubs, while leading an organization with anti-discriminatory policies?
Well, obviously he's allowed to legally. Each club has its own conditions and policies and any member who wants to joing a club, as long as that member agrees with the club's policies and conditions, ethically that member is only responsible for upholding each individual club's policies within that individual club. For instance, I may play football which allows me to touch the ball with my hands. And sometimes I play soccer that doesn't let me touch the ball with my hands. I can agree to the conditions for both clubs without being either for or against sports that allow hand-to-ball contact.
QUOTE(Beladonna @ Feb 11 2004, 12:31 PM)
Should all men's golf clubs be prohibited?
No. We wouldn't want all-women golf clubs to be prohibited.
QUOTE(Beladonna @ Feb 11 2004, 12:31 PM)
Is the LPGA considered inferior to the PGA?
Depends on the definition of inferior. If by inferior we are talking about power needed to drive the ball to the green - than yes, the LPGA is inferior. If we are talking about number of endorsements, I'd say the LPGA is inferior. If we are talking about skill level required, I'd say they are equal. If we are talking about the opportunity to win, I'd say the LPGA is superior. If we are talking about the opportunity to win money, they are both equal....you see the difference?
QUOTE(Beladonna @ Feb 11 2004, 12:31 PM)
Are women treated as second class citizens since they aren't allowed to play in the PGA?
Yes. If women want to earn the respect of men golfers, the men golfers will WANT to compete against the women - and new leagues will be formed. Women have to earn the respect to initiate change, where as a male can enter and try for the money without having to initiate policy changes first. This makes women second class citizens. They have added obstacles. Shackles if you will.
Actually women are allowed to compete in the PGA. Two, that I know of, have done so this year. Men are not allowed to compete in the LPGA, or the WNBA, or any other woman's league that I know of. Who is suffering from discrimination here?
First to answer the questions:
Can Ridley belong to all-male clubs, while leading an organization with anti-discriminatory policies?
I think if Ridley were truly interested in anti-discrimintory policies and being a good leader of the USGA he would at least resign his membership (or put it on hold or something) while he is head of the USGA in order to avoid looking improper. Of course, some would say this would be discrimination or other such nonsense - but no one is forcing him to become the head of the USGA or to remain a member of Augusta. I would also expect any female head of the USGA to temporarily quit any membership with any women's only clubs for the same reasons.
Should all men's golf clubs be prohibited?
No. Of course, in Golf its kind of strange to have mens or womens only clubs anyway - since its been my experience most people play with same sex groups unless its a couples match. And since there are different tees for different levels and abilties of golfers, even at the all mens or all womens clubs, I really don't see the advantage - unless of course these are all nude clubs and the men are just simply too embarassed to play in front of the women... but I digress and my feminism is showing
Is the LPGA considered inferior to the PGA?
I think it does not generate interest among men - which is problematic for endorsements as so many golf watchers are male so there are fewer people wanting to watch the LPGA. I like the few LPGA games I see (I must admit here I don't have cable, so don't know whats on the golf channel or ESPN1to50). I also sought out a female pro to get some golf lessons from because there are some anatomical differences between men and women that do impact the game (I'm talking more than just strength, since I can out drive my dad)... I like to watch other women play so I can maybe pick up some clues. Maybe if the LPGA competitors started wearing short skirts, women's golf would get as much attention as women's tennis. (Occasionally there is some interest in the LPGA - like when some cute young flirty woman starts playing in short shorts).
Are women treated as second class citizens since they aren't allowed to play in the PGA?
As pointed out they can play in the PGA - In a perfect world, more pro women golfers would aspire to compete in the PGA and the need for the LPGA would dissappear so it could meld into the PGA and we would all be one happy family
However, golf is a strange world I am just entering into, and I think there are some golfers who like the old world unspoken rules of decorum in golf... some would figure we women golfers should be happy we aren't required to wear the victorian corsets and long skirts. I was invited to play with some med students and doctors one weekend, but found myself in the group with two doctor's wives and a female resident. I enjoyed myself, though, because I am not a good golfer and didn't really relish the idea of being in serious competition with anyone - but the resident and I discussed (mostly in jest) the ramifications of not being included in the "boys club" group and how we could miss potential brown nosing points. In the end, I think the face of golf is slowing changing to something more unisex, but probably the biggest barrier to this is the elitist, high class stereotype attributed to many golfers, which keeps so many away.
As far as the reverse discrimination by the LPGA - I wonder how many men are clamoring to compete? And the WNBA - I didn't know that women could compete in the NBA? I think men like to keep the sports segregated by the sexes, because it allows them to maintain that sense of male superiority in at least one aspect of their life (I am speaking in jest of course
)
Can Ridley belong to all-male clubs, while leading an organization with anti-discriminatory policies?
I think if Ridley were truly interested in anti-discrimintory policies and being a good leader of the USGA he would at least resign his membership (or put it on hold or something) while he is head of the USGA in order to avoid looking improper. Of course, some would say this would be discrimination or other such nonsense - but no one is forcing him to become the head of the USGA or to remain a member of Augusta. I would also expect any female head of the USGA to temporarily quit any membership with any women's only clubs for the same reasons.
Should all men's golf clubs be prohibited?
No. Of course, in Golf its kind of strange to have mens or womens only clubs anyway - since its been my experience most people play with same sex groups unless its a couples match. And since there are different tees for different levels and abilties of golfers, even at the all mens or all womens clubs, I really don't see the advantage - unless of course these are all nude clubs and the men are just simply too embarassed to play in front of the women... but I digress and my feminism is showing
Is the LPGA considered inferior to the PGA?
I think it does not generate interest among men - which is problematic for endorsements as so many golf watchers are male so there are fewer people wanting to watch the LPGA. I like the few LPGA games I see (I must admit here I don't have cable, so don't know whats on the golf channel or ESPN1to50). I also sought out a female pro to get some golf lessons from because there are some anatomical differences between men and women that do impact the game (I'm talking more than just strength, since I can out drive my dad)... I like to watch other women play so I can maybe pick up some clues. Maybe if the LPGA competitors started wearing short skirts, women's golf would get as much attention as women's tennis. (Occasionally there is some interest in the LPGA - like when some cute young flirty woman starts playing in short shorts).
Are women treated as second class citizens since they aren't allowed to play in the PGA?
As pointed out they can play in the PGA - In a perfect world, more pro women golfers would aspire to compete in the PGA and the need for the LPGA would dissappear so it could meld into the PGA and we would all be one happy family
However, golf is a strange world I am just entering into, and I think there are some golfers who like the old world unspoken rules of decorum in golf... some would figure we women golfers should be happy we aren't required to wear the victorian corsets and long skirts. I was invited to play with some med students and doctors one weekend, but found myself in the group with two doctor's wives and a female resident. I enjoyed myself, though, because I am not a good golfer and didn't really relish the idea of being in serious competition with anyone - but the resident and I discussed (mostly in jest) the ramifications of not being included in the "boys club" group and how we could miss potential brown nosing points. In the end, I think the face of golf is slowing changing to something more unisex, but probably the biggest barrier to this is the elitist, high class stereotype attributed to many golfers, which keeps so many away. As far as the reverse discrimination by the LPGA - I wonder how many men are clamoring to compete? And the WNBA - I didn't know that women could compete in the NBA? I think men like to keep the sports segregated by the sexes, because it allows them to maintain that sense of male superiority in at least one aspect of their life (I am speaking in jest of course
)
QUOTE
Questions for debate:
Can Ridley belong to all-male clubs, while leading an organization with anti-discriminatory policies?
Can Ridley belong to all-male clubs, while leading an organization with anti-discriminatory policies?
Legally, yes. Morally, yes. There's another word for discrimination: choice
QUOTE
Should all men's golf clubs be prohibited?
No, unless you believe that all women's health clubs and spas should be prohibited, Ladies' Night banned, Senior discounts and "adult living" (aka senior's only) developments should be outlawed, etc.
QUOTE
Is the LPGA considered inferior to the PGA?
Yes.
Most women's professional sports are "inferior" to mens, simply because sports is primarily a realm of athletics, and the strongest, fastest men are stronger and faster than the strongest, fastest women. From an economic standpoint, men's sports generate a whole lot more economic activity because more men participate, and more men spectate. The best women's professional sport is tennis, with skiing being a close second. Gymnastics and figure skating are the best women's amateur sports, and both are more popular than the men's.
QUOTE
Are women treated as second class citizens since they aren't allowed to play in the PGA?
I'm not allowed to play in the PGA either, does that mean I'm a second class citizen? No, it simply means I can't play golf at that level, or to put a finer point on it, I can't play golf, at all!I'm gonna collar Tim Conway and see about starting a Dorf Golf Association.
QUOTE(rebelkate @ Feb 11 2004, 11:13 PM)
As far as the reverse discrimination by the LPGA - I wonder how many men are clamoring to compete? And the WNBA - I didn't know that women could compete in the NBA? I think men like to keep the sports segregated by the sexes, because it allows them to maintain that sense of male superiority in at least one aspect of their life (I am speaking in jest of course
) Considering what Sorenstam makes, compared to a comparable male golfer, I am sure thousands of men would be willing to compete in the LPGA if allowed to. Yes, the NBA, doe not discriminate based on sex. Just talent. The WNBA discriminates based on sex.
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