The inefficiency, out right racism, cost, 4 tiered justice system (rich, poor, white, color) prosecutorial abuse and laziness, lack of funding for adequate legal counsel for the indingent, etc etc etc makes our justice system a real mockery of what justice should be.

My question is,

Do we need a complete overhaul of the justice system, or to just fix some of the rules within it?

Whatever your answer to above, what do you think it the best, practical way of going about it?

Wow, this is a huge question.

My feeling tends to be that the justice system of the representative nations on Earth tend to be about as good as any human system can be. This may not be very good. I would tend to lean toward reform rather than overhaul.

I'm no legal expert, so my practical suggestions would be very vague. Get rid of timewasting court cases. (Once I was required to come into court for a broken tail light. I was perfectly willing to pay the fine, but I had to go to court and have the judge tell me to pay the fine.) Get rid of things like the seizure of assets of people who are suspected of crimes. This is an absolutely terrible idea. Get rid of the death penalty. Moral issues aside, there is just no way to make it absolutely free from error, and it has to be.

I think the main reason we have a problem with our legal system is the stranglehold the lawyers have on the system- they are the only real beneficuraries of the system.

I have always thought that the first thing we need to do is take the profit motive away. I think we should "nationalize" the industry- make all lawyers public employees. A lottery system for drawing your lawyer, this way Exxon and I are on the same legal footing. On top of that, if a corporation wants to add lawyers or legal teams to thier case, they have to give the money to the gov- and an equal number of poeple have to be added to the defense side, this way, once again, the richer foe does not neccesarily win. I believe promotions should depend on winning cases as well- you start out as a civil litigator- plaintiff side, you win X amount of cases, you get to represent the defendent, win X amount of cases, you get to be a prosecutor, win X amount of cases you get to be considered for a judge. Oversee X amount of cases, you get to be legal counsel for lawmakers, though all lawyers are permanently barred for holding public elected office. Then let congress determine thier salaries.

And at the very least, we need to provide the defense side of our legal system with exactly the same funding and resources as the prosecutors, I think this is the real achilles heel of our system. And each public defense attorney's office should have it's own force of investigaters that have previously worked as detectives on the prosecutors side to determine if the cops missed something exculpatory.

I definitely agree that lawyers are a huge part of the problem.
For defense lawyers, their careers revolve mainly around
presenting such a compelling defense that they get their client
off, whether or not he's guilty. It becomes a GAME - "let's
see if I'm good enough to get this guy off.....etc." I do not
necessarily go along with the idea of advancing a lawyer based
on how many cases he wins. Then it becomes about winning,
rather than finding true justice.

The system needs to be simplified. Now that we have ways to
prove guilt (or innocence), with advanced DNA evidence, etc., it is much
easier than ever before to prove or disprove a case. Lawyers tend to
mix everything up, purposely, to confuse and distract. There
should be strict yet simple guidelines that are followed, when trying a case.

Basically, as CR pointed out, the only true winners in our justice
system are the lawyers. It's similar to the health care system
we have in the US. If you have money you'll get the best
treatment, and if you don't, you won't.

I think this is a place were capitalism does not belong, or to be more clear, the profit motive. I think Lawyers need a very good wage, however, because of the intense and long schooling that they really do need. However, along with public safety or the Army, I think this is an area we should have never allowed market forces to control, because justice should be equally accesable and constant for all, not just Ken Lay, OJ Simpson, the Menendez Bros and Niel Bush!

The justice system in America is a mess. However, it happens to be the most fair mess in the world.

How do we fix it? I am not lawyer, politician or legal expert. However, I see the problem as having some very real solutions.

One. Tort reform. It is insane for someone to win millions of dollars for tripping in a pot hole. For goodness sake the person who tripped in the pothole is at least partially at fault for not watching where they were going. And hundreds of thousands of dollars for spilling hot coffee in your lap? We really need to get a handle on this.

We need a system of caps on civil cases. Jurys continue to see these cases as "poor old lady, penniless family, etc" vs. "Big mean evil corporation". The awards in civil cases these days are simply outrageous and need to be reformed. Without reform, Insurance rates for companies, doctors, etc skyrocket and with them goes your bill when you buy a product of service from them. Worse yet, good professionals are beginning to leave their professions because they can no longer afford to be in business due to the astronomical insurance rates caused by these outrageous awards.

On the Criminal side. One of the reasons for short sentences and early releases of violent criminals is because of prison over crowding. A major contributor to over crowding is the mandatory minimum sentences given to drug offenders who are frequently non-violent. We need to eliminate these mandatory minimums and get back to the business of ensuring that the truly dangerous stay behind bars and away from society.

I am not sure how to fix it. But the system favors criminals over victims. This has to stop. One idea would be having a person who is convicted of committing a crime against someone else pay financial restitution to the victim. I realize many criminals have nothing. But most prisons have work programs where the prisoners earn small amounts of money for the work they do. Those programs should become mandatory and the money sent to the victims until the debt determined by the court is paid. If the person's sentence ends before the balance is paid then they will be obligated to pay the victim back within a reasonable amount of time for face contempt of court charges and a return trip to prison.

All civil cases should have the loser pay the winners legal bills. Lets stop the abuse of the system by those who would sue for idiotic things like "I know the doctor said not to drive or operate heavy machinery when I was taking that medication, but I wasn't driving I was riding my little motorcycle" and the like and make them pay the costs of the legal defense for the person or company they sued. Perhaps we could even apply this to criminal cases. Why should the state be forced to pay when someone refuses to admit they did something wrong?

A HUGE part of the problem is the fact that we rarely, if ever charge or prosecute people for filing a false report, nuisance laws suits, or perjury. I had a friend that spent thousands defending herself against groundless charges by the dozens that were filed by a ex-boyfriend as a revenge tactic. According to the law in her state (NJ), she could not file a suit against him for nuisance lawsuits / harassment if the case didn't go to court. And it was considered not to have gone to court if the judge immediately dismissed it in the preliminary hearing even though she had to pay for legal representation to make that happen. These cases harm innocent people every day and clog up the courts beyond belief. Start holding people civilly and criminally accountable for their lies.

We need to get "Natural Life" sentence without the possibility for parole for the most violent offenders. Drop the death penalty. As I have discussed at length in another thread, nothing is gained from it by society and the risk of loosing from it is great enough to make it not worth the risk. Put these violent monsters behind bars until they die of natural causes.

End the comfy prison movement. Make work programs mandatory, make access to the law libraries, weight rooms, the outdoors, TV, etc a privilege (earned by good behavior) not a right, remove cable and satellite TV and worry about the food being nutritious, not tasty. Make life in prison an actual deterrent.

Allow the public to have a word on their judges. Judges, with the exception of the supreme court of the US need to be elected. Lets end tyranny and legislation from the bench and get back to the business of the law and justice. How may of the Wacos on the 9th Circuit Court in California would still be there if they were elected?

Stop the blocking of Judicial Nominees by either party. We have cases back logged all over the country and 100s of judical positions opened because the politicians in congress and elsewhere are playing politics with the justice system. Eliminate the committee involvement. All nominations automatically go to the floor for an up or down vote. End of story.

One more thing.



I have to ask. How would you possibly pay for this? Are you prepared to pay 10% more in taxes? 20% more? to fund such programs? Well paid government employee Lawyers? How many would we need? And what of the States and Local Governments that can barely stay financially solvent now? My family is just making it as it is. If something like this went through the cost of it, and the tax increases from the Federal, State and Local Governments to pay for it could put us under.

One. Tort reform. It is insane for someone to win millions of dollars for tripping in a pot hole. For goodness sake the person who tripped in the pothole is at least partially at fault for not watching where they were going. And hundreds of thousands of dollars for spilling hot coffee in your lap? We really need to get a handle on this.

How do you go about changing bad corporate behavior then? Exxon was "awarded" a 5 billion dollar judgement for thier bad behavior- and I don't think it was near high enough. 4 years gross revenue would have been a good start- after all, that is what many poeple lost because of thier bad behavior. What about when a corporation knowingly cuts corners knowing that the judgement will be less than they have to spend in case of injury? Your tort cap reform makes thier behavior actually a profit taking!

I think the judicial system needs a reality check and needs to quit making money off people for stupid reasons. If it were legalized why not make it a fine for being caught with it rather than throw the person into prison? Than put that money into real issues such as coke addicts, alcohol abuse classes. Marijuana is not a huge issue, the only reason why it is bad is because it is illegal. So many people have smoked marijuana but why has no one done anything about it? Because those that do are slandered, names painted as druggies and junkies. Al Gore admits he smokes occasionally. I think we need someone in the office like him for the simple fact that AT LEAST hes honest. We don't need liars in the office, we need good honest people that have worked hard for what they have, not what their fathers have had!!! Why do we do this to ourselves!! Theirs thousands of websites that are working towards legalizing/decriminalizing marijuana but theres one true website that is lying to others. The States have misguided americans and hypocrites working against those that believe it should be legalized. Why are we still going about this? So many issues could be resolved, instead they want to waste a cops and judges time over something so pointless. A green plant that grows naturally in many countries. We are the only country still cutting down 100 yr old trees so we can have paper and pencils and houses!!! Why do we destroy the economy when their is a solution!!! It takes 1/3 less chemicals to make hemp versus wood. I'm not deep into politics and theirs a good enough reason for that. I don't want to be involved in the mess. I want to be able to go into the privacy of my own home and smoke a joint rather than take a couple shots. I am an insomniac and started smoking when I had to take 8 tylenol pms to fall asleep. And 8 tylenol pms makes you very "trippy". There are people suffering from chemotherapy that could be smoking to gain appetite instead they have to suffer. Recovering aneroxics would also have marijuana to their advantage. Why are the States so blind? Why are we belligerent to the facts, instead we want to keep the laws the same and continue to throw away perfectly good people into jail for a joint. I have known very successful doctors, neurologists, nurses, teachers, COPS even to use marijuana! All the facts are there but the USA wants to keep the law the same!! Its the same kind of dumb law that exists like you cant mow your lawn in shorts on a sunday morning!! Its insane, and something needs to be done!!

I totally disagree. Tort reform is about putting caps on damage awards based on the actual damage sustained by the victim(s). Twisting your ankle in a pothole should not be a financial windfall. Spilling hot coffee on yourself should be no award at all. Loosing a son to a bad product should still be huge award. Being a part of a major environmental disaster would still be a huge award. 5 Billion is a huge award.

With your Exxon example, did you take into consideration the money they spent on the clean up? What about money they pumped into that area to help make up for the damage done? Did you take into consideration that the damage done was not because the company had any specific policy in place that allow it? What about the fact that it wasn't the result of any deceitful or illegal activity on the companies part? It was the result of the actions of a handful of bad employees. The company should be held accountable because they were ultimately responsible for those employees but why demonize them? And why financially hammer them so bad that you drive them into the red so deep that it takes a few hundred thousand jobs from average Americans in the process.

Lastly, more people were damaged then just the locals by this disaster. Exxon's stock took a fair hit from the incident. Employees with stock purchase plans, Investors of all levels, and average American's with 401k programs all took a hit from it. Your suggested award would do a major amount of damage to them as well.

The problem with outrageous awards is the fact that the damage they do extends beyond the company and hurts regular employees, retirees, investors of all shapes and sizes as well as the economy in general.

Okay, I will be very clear- HUGE damage awards are at this point, the ONLY check into bad behavior by companies- since they never really get charged with criminal wrongdoing and the sentences are fines they would barely even notice- the problem with "actual damages" is that it becomes cost effective to keep the corporate culture and just pay off poeple in, to them, chump change, as the problem happens over and over again. I think, instead, it should be relative damage to the company as to the damaged party- i.e.- you cost me four years of income, I take four years away of your income.

Now, I would prefer to have seen the death penalty for the entire board of directors for Exxon- because I think that the death penalty for gross corporate negligence WOULD be a deterent to corporate criminal crime, but since they run our country and our justice system, that is not likely to happen

Despite the clean up efforts of Exxon BTW- their is permanent damage to the sound, you can go to any of the oiled beaches, dig down about a foot, and find crude. Where I used to dig clams, is now a dead zone with only a gross algae growing, the killer whale population has never rebounded and the otters are still having problems, because of the death of the clam and mollusk population in much of the sound. I think they are nowhere near even 20 billion to replace actual damages.

And it was a corporate culture that led to the Exxon Valdez issue, not just Hazelwood, in fact, we are battling the consortium of oil companies right now for attempting to cut back spill resonse AGAIN- because it is economically more feasible to battle us in court AFTER a spill than change the corporate culture!

So am I right in thinking then that you supported the original award against McDonalds to the old woman who spilled hot coffee in her lap?

Punish, Destroy, and Kill the Corporate "evil-doers" at all costs, all the little people who are hurt by this be damned?

Juries - our peers - made the legal system what it is today. If a jury of 12 people find McDonald's negligently responsible for a coffee spill, you can't blame that on the lawyers. Yes the lawyers are persuasive, yes they are educated. But THAT is the problem. The problem is that lawyers are educated and juries are not. The huge disparity in intellect (I don't mean knowledge of the law - just general INTELLECT, the ability to recognize bias, manipulation, pin point motive of lawyer, defendant, AND plaintiff) is the biggest problem with our legal system. Juries decide cases based on which lawyer is more persuasive because they can't get past the drama of the courtroom which so closely resembles the drama on the TV, where they get the most years of their foundation education.

If you want to fix the legal system, start with the school systems. Start with education reform - making college affordable for everyone. As long as juries are barely high school educated, America will continue to feel manipulated by the legal system.

Actually, in the case of McDonalds, the system DID work- the award was reduced to actual damages on the first appeal- so the whole McDonalds arguement is moot. In Exxon- the Judges in every situation has upheld the judgement- it is actually 8 billion now with interest- but they are attempting to drag it out until the plaintif dies basically.

I will state two cases I have been involved in as I know the plaintiffs personally- one a workers comp claim, the other gross negligence.

in the work's comp claim- a jury AND a judge has upheld a 750,000 dollar judgement, actual damages of wages lost and medical bills, which the company has refused to pay- just outright said "I will drag this out forever and you will never get a dime"- and it was 100% thier fault and negligence that caused the accident- so yes, if the company went under, as long as the owner of that company suffered, I would be fine with it!

The other was a young athlete, a future NBA star, who had his foot iced after the game- he had never applied ice to his own foot in his life- it was his second year of college- and the team trainer left it on to long, he was frostbitten and lost 3 toes to gangrene. Career over. He was black, the jury white (this was in Utah)- they said it was his own fault, his negligence, and he didn't get a dime. A multimillion dollar "WINDFALL" would have been totally appropriate in his case.

If a company goes under due to thier wrongdoing, that is not only fair, but neccesary. Another company will take thier place, hire thier people, and replace thier market share, but will probably not make the same negligent mistakes!

I disagree. first of all, what "actual" damages? The woman, stupidly spilled coffee in her own lap. The temperature of the coffee was at the level mandated by the federal government to ensure that it is "safe". What did McDonalds do to be held responsible for this?

Secondly, the $100,000s of dollar McDonalds had to spend to defend themselves in this case and the $100,000s of dollars they had to spend to appeal the insane award are simply not right. If Tort reform had been in place at least the initial award would have been reasonable to begin with. Then McDonalds would be left with the decision to fit the award all together as they were clear not at fault, or take the loss as it would likely be cheaper then the appeals process.



This is a good example of where reform is needed. Failure to pay awards is done by everyone, not just corporations. It needs to be addressed. If you fail to pay an award issued against you by a court of law within a reasonable amount of time then you should be held criminally responsible through contempt of court charges. In the case of corporations this charge should be brought against the CFO.




Interesting example. So you don't think, that an ADULT, isn't even remotely responsible for icing their own foot? Hey, it hurts, ALOT long before frostbite. Shouldn't have that been a clue? Is it unreasonable to assume that adult have common sense when taking care of themselves? Where is the personal responsiblity in this case?

I have a case for you. My father worked for the same company for over 30 years. He could have retired, but he was holding out for a new contract negotiation and for the full social security benefits. He fell to his death working on a lighting circuit. He was walking beams and fell, breaking his neck. OSHA requires a harness to be worn when working over 8 feet in the air. The place my father was working had no where to attach a harness. He wasn't wearing one. OSHA blames my Dad because he didn't have a harness on when he fell. My Mother is still considering suing. My opinion is that she should not. The reason being that OSHA and his companies own training says don't work that high without a harness. The company policies say to err on the side of safety. Being a union Job my father could have easily refused to do this work because it was unsafe and between the company policies and the union representation he would have been protected. He choose to work in that environment without the protection of safety equipment and as a result he died. That is clearly NOT the responsiblity of the company.

If we continue to refuse to address the personal responsibility of individuals, the actions they take and the consequences of those actions we will eventually fall apart as a society.

You addressed the details without addressing the question- how do you reduce awards without making it cost effective for companies just to be "evil"?

I'm not the first to propose it, but I think something like this is the right answer to the problem:

Let actual damages go to the party winning the suit. Let punitive damages -- which are the ones that punish the guilty -- go to the state's indigent defense fund to make sure those that can't afford to pay for counsel are properly represented in court. Most state's indigent defense funds come from tax dollars and are woefully inadequate for the task.

It's a matter of what is right and fair. In the case of the man with frostbite. Do you really feel that the school, or the medical professional providing services to the school should be hit with millions of dollars in damages when the man was dumb enough to Ice his foot too the point of frostbite?

Do you really feel that the woman who burned herself with coffee really deserved any award at all?


You reform this system by making the damage awards match the damage and holding people responsible when they do idiotic stuff.

You ask how we keep from making it cost effective for companies to be "evil". I think your choose of the word evil says alot about your opinion on companies in general. However, no matter what you do with any system you will have some that abuse it. What you have to do is address the problems with solutions that do the most good for society as a whole. Tort reform is such a solution.

Now, I have asked a few times how you feel about the financial damage done to average Americans when ridiculous awards are given against companies. And you didn't answer about the jobs lost as well.

The Greater good for society is where we need to focus. million dollar awards for tripping in a pothole benefits no one other then the idiot who wasn't watching where they were going.

Actually- he never felt the frostbite- it was to numb an injury- he had questioned the use of the ice in the first place (he was 18) and placed his trust in the trainer- which he had been taught to do by that university. Like I said- he had never put ice on his own foot nor had an injury prior to this event.

Corporations DAILY engage in "evil" behavior- Worldcom, Enron, Exxon, all the little "ons" - Micheal Milken, Ken Lay, Niel Bush etc etc have proven crime does pay, and the only way to get around it is huge punitive damages.

Micheal Milken actually walked out of jail as rich as he went in, Ken Lay will be able to avoid restitution by claiming bankruptcy.

I like AMFs idea somewhat of putting that money back into the legal system.

However, there should be some consideration of the potential earning power of the person that is permanently disabled or killed vs at the time of the incident. Becoming a multi-millionare over a crippling injury that was caused through negligent behavior by a corp is no problem with me.

And truthfully, the corp needs to cease it's existance, no matter what the cost, if it has a corporate culture similar to Exxon or Union Carbide. It will be a great deterant to the next corp that takes it's place to behave better, and will be more stable for those very employees in the long run.

Absolutely. That is all part of the actual damages. There is no reason you can not have Tort reform and still have earnings potential as part of it.



OK. I have to ask. What "evil" corporate culture are you referring too? What is it that Exxon does that is so terrible and "evil" that makes the damage to the economy, the loss of average American Jobs, and the hit 401k programs that we all depend on for our retirement would take worth it?

My Grandfather worked for Exxon. He was a union organizer there back in the old days. They didn't like it, but they didn't punish him for it. I know a little about Exxon as a result. Other then anti-corporate bias, I simply can not understand what you are basing your argument on. What are these practices you refer too?

To recover your potential earnings power falls under "actual damages" and not punitive damages. Judges and juries use punitive damages to punish the losing side so that it will no longer exist (as you suggest as an option) or to make sure it doesn't do it again. Actual damages should always -- less reasonable legal fees -- go to the winning party.

Using the punitive damages to improve our society -- instead of the lawyers and parties involved -- is the point of what I proposed (ok, call me a liberal for wanting to do this, but it's more progressive than just enriching the parties via punitive damages).

Exxon's lawyers hit the beaches before it's clean up crew did. I was an oil company/industry supporter here, taking at face value the "spill response" report filed by Exxon and the consortium of oil companies (namely Alyeska pipeline, at the time, Exxon was the largest share holder) and they assured us that there was adequate spill/response equipment, boomage, in-sound pilots etc. WE as Alaskans, knew there would be a spill (of course, no one suspected one this large) but Exxon had assured us that thier spill plan was adequate, and indeed, on paper, it was. But, in thier corporate culture, instead of limiting the outrageous salaries of it's upper executives, they cut back in the safety area (too expensive to keep all that equipment and personal laying around). Along with double hull tankers that they have fought so vigorously (in this case, it would have worked, I know in a sinking, it would not help) they have a culture of putting dollars ahead of safety of the enviroment, then a long history of persecuting whistleblowers up here (another huge lawsuit up here against Alyeska pipeline from the Exxon era).

Corporate America does sicken me right now. Thier total disregard for thier actions while making huge salaries means we have to put them in check. Corporate America does not have any consequences to speak of when they are caught in wrongdoing, no matter how you feel about the corps now.

For a man to be able to commit massive fraud and wrongdoing and walk out of jail rich is NOT justice, and that is happening right now. IN fact, Ken Lay is still a free man!

I am not privy to this information being you are in Alaska I will assume this is what happened. However, you said earlier, that many lost 4 years of income due to the spill. How were they compensated? How many of them were there, and what was the average loss?

As I recall, Exxon was fined, not sure how much over this incident. This judgement, I believe is a civil one to recover damages done. So, how was the money distributed?

Do we need a complete overhaul of the justice system, or to just fix some of the rules within it?
We need reform, and I think the reforms for the civil justice system are quite different than those of the criminal justice system.

Whatever your answer to above, what do you think it the best, practical way of going about it?

For the Criminal Justice system I would like to see the following reforms entertained:
1) Make all judiciary positions (aside from the Federal Supreme Court) elected positions. We currently have to elect the Sheriff, District Attorney and other positions of enforcement. I believe that forcing all Judges to run for re-election periodically we could ensure that they don't get too comfortable and are held accountable to their communities. I think the term should be longer than four years so they spend time on the bench, no preparing to campaign.

2) One of the bigger problems with the criminal justice system is the cost of housing any given prisoner. This has lead to overcrowding problems and brought about our lovely parole system. Like overlandsailor stated, we should institute mandatory work programs for all prisoners. I'm not talking about about making license plates or picking up trash here, we should find some way to make them productive members of society by producing real goods.

Re: parole - violent offenders should never be paroled short of their minimum recommended sentence.

3) Remove prejudicial penalties for crimes. Color, gender, and sexual orientation have no place in our justice system, justice should be impartial. There should be no such thing as a harsher penalty for a so-called "hate crime", murder is murder. Did you know that if a 25 year old man has sex with a 14 year old girl it is called statutory rape and I believe the penalty is 2 to 5 years for that. However if that same man happens to be gay and has sex with a 14 year old boy, the charge is much harsher -- upwards of 10 years in fact in most states. In both cases we would be talking about "consensual" sex (note minors can't legally consent, but you take my point).

4) Give judges more leeway to determine if a so-called "technicality" is grounds to dismiss charges thus putting a criminal back on the streets, unable to be prosecuted for that same crime. Judges shoudl weigh the severity of the crime before throwing the case out on a technicality.

5) Ban the death penalty -- this just causes an incredible waste of tax payer dollars and serves justice no purpose. Life, without parole, should instead be used.

Regarding lawyers, I think that they should continue making the salaries they do. Lawyers have dedicated their lives to studying the law, spent years in school, and invested 10's of thousands of dollars in their education. The market pays them what they are worth, some attorneys are worth far more because they are far more skilled. I think that legal aid lawyers could stand to be paid better so the quality of that legal advice would improve.

Making the positions elected is a huge mistake IMO- it would insure scum like Roy Moore are elected by thier pandering and grandstanding- we get enough of that from the legislature. Judges should interpret/uphold the law, and determine if a law is constitutional- that is a good check in our system. Judges should not be in a popularity contest, in fact, maybe if they GET more than half the vote, maybe they are not doing thier job?

Producing real goods with convict labor competes directly with private enterprise- do we drive private busines out of business with this source of cheap labor?

Our jails make furniture- but it can only be used in state institutions, and not sold on the private market, so as to not compete with private furniture companies.

The funny part is- prisoners compete for work as a privelage now- there are waiting list like it is a special program- this kills time, and time is thier enemy. We have a "work camp" for non-violent offenders here, and there is a 3 year waiting list to get on what basically is a chain gang LOL