My wife and I were wondering what was Halle Berry's last good movie and went down the list:

Gothika (Didn't see it)

Die Another Day (Hated it)

Monster's Ball (Really hated it)

Swordfish (Enjoyable on a trash level, but nothing special)

We settled on Bulworth where a horny Warren Beatty chases around after the lovely Ms. Berry and in the process he becomes less of a tight-butt white guy and starts dressing in hip-hop gear, rollin' with the bruthas and even raps. It's kind of funny if you don't take it too seriously.

This got us to thinking about interracial relationships in general. My wife hates to see black men with white women, especially successful ones. I don't think love has any color (or gender either), but I still look out the corner of my eye when I see a interracial couple in the mall.

I have dated white women and I don't see any particular difference between the races behind closed doors. It's a private affair as far I'm concerned. However, as the issue of gay marriage is a hot one, I've read several stories where interracial marriage was also once considered a taboo.

The question for the board is: Are you for or against interracial relationships and why?

Being male, and when I was single, any pretty woman, regardless of race, that gave me the "eye" or "aye", was certainly okay with me. In my experiance, in the last few years, it has been women that have had more of a problem with this than men, and in my experiance, it is usually as you said NT- black women getting mad at black men, for chasing white women, not because of any other reason than the black woman's perception that somehow these men think of the white woman as "more of a catch".

When I was in the Army, I dated a very beautiful black girl, and she gave me some of her insight into this. She loved to parade me in front of her girlfriends as somewhat of a status symbol. I am forever grateful to her BTW- for teaching me how to not dress like the country bumpkin that I was (Young alaskan boy from the sticks, painter paints and flannel made up my whole wardrobe at the time ) . In Alaska, were the men outnumbered the women in Anchorage more than 5 to 1 at the time, racism was a luxory we could not afford! So when a beautiful woman that was black made it known she was amenable to my advances, I took it.

And this gets me back to the subject- we men usually don't care what color the women are, as long as they are amenable to our advances- so why are the women so uptight about it? LOL

I asked my grandmother, who grew up in the deep south in the 50s and 60s, and she also said that the white women of that era were the ones that were the driving force behind the interracial dating taboo, not the men, who, in fact, would spout about thier racist plans but might have a "colored" mistress (my grandmother, though a liberal civil rights southern lady of the 60s, still speaks in the language of her times, though would never use the word "nigger")

I honestly can't figure out why someone would be against interracial relationships. I don't have much else to say about it, because being against them is completely lacking in any sort of logic, IMO. I can't even come up with a devil's advocate scenario.

Nighttimer, I would be interested to know for what specific reasons your wife is bothered by the concept.

Since I've been in a interracial relationship for 3 years now I have quite a few stories. First off, the most unconfortable part of a relationship is not race itself but culture. A two day traditional Hindu wedding is enough to scare off most Americans. Second, I totally agree about the women getting jealous that I'm with a girl of a different race. Over the years I have gotten a few "you need a good Carribean/Guyanese/Indian girl" speeches, but guys of every single race or culture has persued my lady. Next, I remember years ago (early 80's maybe) when Sally Jesse Raphel, Donague, Geraldo Rivera, all used to have "I'm in a interracial relationship" shows. You don't usually see those anymore. Well back to the main point, the only reasons I can think of is that the cultures of two people involved is too different, think of that Big fat wedding movie a few months back, there is also an issue of perserving societies like the Native Americans.

It's the person who matters, not the race. I don't feel it is anyone's business to judge any interracial couple. If they are happy and their relationship is working, that is what matters. We're all the same under the skin.

Speaking as a black female, I can completely relate to Nighttimer's wife. In American society, white women are considered more of a "catch" - not just to black males, but to many hispanic and asians as well. How many successful black men marry or date black women? Cuba Gooding Jr., Tiger Woods, Kobe Bryant, Taye Diggs, hell even Dave Chapelle all date or are married to white women. I can't find any statistics on the likelihood of a black male celebrity dating a non-black as compared to your average black male, but it appears to me that, among celebrities, it's abnormally high. IMHO, black women are not desirable in today's society. To anyone who wants to go all Beyonce Knowles on me, she does not have African-American features - short, kinky hair, wide nostrils, full lips. I think black women have more than ample reason to feel annoyed whenever they see a black man with a white woman. It goes back to black women not being good enough for black men. Could it be love? Sure it could. Whether my feelings are justified or not, I'd still be annoyed nonetheless, and I'll continue to be until the number of black males who date non-black females is even slightly close to the number of black females who date non-black males. There's some definite double-standards going on here.

I'd be the last one to tell someone to only date within their own race, but for black men and white women, it seems to go beyond that. What I see in a celebrity b.m/w.f. couple is that the black male doesn't have to "settle" for dating a black female - he can afford a glamourous, exotic white female. On the contrary, when I see a b.f./w.m. couple, I'm silently cheering them on. White males automatically get the "prize" of the white female - and for them to forgo it and choose the "leftovers," it takes a special kind of maturity.

Personally, the only guys I've ever dated have been white, and it's been for several reasons. The most important being the cultural differences - I identify a lot more with the "white" culture - a broad term if there is one - than the "urban/black" culture. I've grown up in overwhelmingly white neighborhoods and schools, so it's only natural that I identify more with white people.

Secondly, and I'm not too proud of it, but I'm simply more physically attracted to white males than black males. I realize that there are attractive men of every race, but to be honest, black features don't appeal to me too much either. Really, I could see myself dating any race but black. This is not saying that if a guy was black, I'd automatically dismiss any chance of dating him, because if I meet the right guy, it wouldn't matter what race he was. I just think that the "right" guy would most likely be white. There are culture differences in most black males that simply turn me off to them physically, their style of dress and language being among them. Of course, I'm stereotyping here, but that's only because the stereotypes, for the most part, are true.

Actually, when I think about it, if blacks date white people because of culture differences, then I'd be the ideal candidate for a black guy who desired white women But we'd probably never meet each other for those very reasons.

At first I was thinking -- I'm all for it! until I read Suzy's post, which made a lot of sense to me. I can see that white women are usually considered more of a trophy in this society, and in those cases I think I would be more judgemental of that situation, and lots less judgmental of a black woman with a white man.

I do believe that love has no color (or gender as well) so I would hope I would keep that in mind and not get overly judgmental.

I also have to admit that as a white woman, I have been attracted to men from many different races -- usually more often than white men. In fact, it came as a big surprise to me when the one I actually settled down with was 100% European-American. only the second totally white guy I'd ever been with.

Having been in an interracial marriage for 23 years, let me just say it is hell on Earth. Obviously, in my wife's culture things such as leaving socks on the floor, forgetting anniversaries, buying toasters for Valentines Day gifts, etc., is looked down upon. I do not know if I will ever understand all these cultural differences and be able to be the model husband she desires. Well, gotta go return that toaster.

Seriously, I think the children of a interracial relationship do sometimes face prejudice and/or have more difficulties finding their identity. As interracial marriage becomes more common those problems will lesson. Recently saw a statistic where in 75% of black/white marriages the husband was black, and in 75% of asian/white marriages the husband was white. I can see why those stats would cause black women and asian men some problems.

The purpose of my initial paragraph was to point out that there are a lot more differences between the genders than the races. Despite the vast differences between men and women heterosexual relationships have had some moderate success stories.

I think Suzy hit it right on the head- our society likes pam anderson more than whoopi goldberg- but who do you think is lower maintainence and funner to be with in reality? Barbie is what our society attains too.

Well, I for one don't believe in the Barbie stereotype, even though I hear she is available now. Look at the Ms. America/ Ms. Universe pageant. Each year a person of color wins, with Venezuela, Colombia, and India dominating the final five positions. And if the white woman is the trophy wife then why do these same trophies frequent tanning salons? Personally I have alway been physically attracted to women with beautiful brown skin, even though my current lady is .5 Korean and .5 white. Which bring me to my next point:

This can also be due to the Korean war and our bases still located there. The bars in Korea are filled with Korean, Filipina, Japanese, and Russian women looking for American GI's.

Personally I am all for it, in fact am in an inter-racial marriage. However I have never looked at it that way.

I married my wife because of who she is, not because of the color of her skin. While I will admit I am attracted to certain features in a female over others, almost none of them are exclusive to one race over another.



She did, but there also lies the problem with our society. Pamela Anderson, while pretty to look at, must be dreadfully boring to talk to on a regular basis. Using some of her interviews as a basis for her personality, I think I wouldn't be able to stand anything more than a one-night stand with her. Whoopi Goldberg on the other hand is much more interesting, and actually has thoughts of her own. Go figure that.

What's with this comparison of Whoopi Goldberg and Pamela Anderson, if your going to be fair and balanced why not compare two women with equal beauty regaurdless of race like, Pam Anderson and Tyra Banks. Not that I have anything against Whoopi but you won't see her gracing the cover of Glamour Mag anytime soon, because she is known for her charm and not her beauty.

I find your opinion kind of hypocritical since you stated "Really, I could see myself dating any race but black." IMO this is not about white women being a "catch" its plain and simply about who they are attracted to. You are attracted to non-blacks and the men you named are simply attracted to the same. I can name plenty of black males that are famous and married within their race. Examples: Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, etc, etc.

I personally find a debate like this counterproductive. We are all human and equal. Why do some of you feel resentment towards these individuals? They are happy, they connect with that person and love that person. I highly doubt Tiger Woods said "I'm gonna marry her because shes white and that makes her a "catch"! He married her because #1 shes hot and #2 he loves her. This notion of a "trophy" wife just because shes of another race is nonsense. People want someone that they love and can have fun with, not just a "prize". I see this as a non-issue and as I voted "none of my business" and might I add none of anyone elses either.

I'm wavering between "none of my business" (because it isn't, really) and "in favor of it." The reason I'm leaning a little to favoring as many interracial relationships as possible is that I'd like to see a day come when the races were so completely blurred that there was no longer any such thing as a race.

I'm one-half Hispanic, so many people would consider me to be the product of a mixed race marriage. I am married to someone who is 100% WASP, as far as I know. Whatever works, works.

Physical attraction is an individual thing that can't be explained. I happen to find many persons of Asian ancestry to be very attractive. This has nothing to do with my marriage.

I'm just curious--isn't this as derogatory to the white women? Or is being a 'trophy' considered cachet now?

As for the question in general--absolutely all for it. As with my viewpoint on all racial matters--they sooner we as a society can get over skin color the better (note that this goes both ways). Do I think society is completely ready to accept this situation as 'normal'--no, probably not yet. But it ain't goin' to get there any other way.

I was kind of pointing out what is considered the societal image of beauty in our society- Tyra Banks is a light skinned black woman with "white" features- kinda as Suzy pointed out.

Hey, we are all a litte mixed up and wierd when it comes to what we want in a mate- look at the polls to women- they all say women think the most atractive thing about a man is his "sense of humour"- so why is Johnny Dep the sexiest man alive and not Robin Williams?

I thought this was an interesting topic for debate. Its something I actually think about more than I want, simply because I've dated many more black men than white men. In fact, my earliest crushes as a girl were all black boys... and at the time I didn't realize it was such a big deal. I have dated some wonderful men (both black and white), but sadly nothing has worked out because I am a committment-phobic. However, if I were to ever find "the one" and he happened to be black, I think I would face a serious dilemma. I love my parents to death, and for the first fifteen years of my life or so, I never heard a prejudice word out of their mouth, and they have many good friends from many backgrounds (black, white, indian, eskimo, you name it).

But, in the past several years I've had several discussions with my parents about interracial dating - and I realize they would surprisingly have a problem with my bringing home a black man. I'm not really sure where their prejudice came from - but I have a suscipicion it has something to do with the very white southern suburb in which they live and all the news they see everyday about the Richmond crimes - which by demographics involves a lot of the black population of the area. Having worked in local EDs and on rescue squads, I know its people of many races involved in criminal activity and there are ignorant people of all races - but the local news always seems to show any crime involving african-americans as a sort of "routine" thing and any crime involving caucasians as a huge news story because its "so rare" (which it isn't). Plus, living in the south I think brings out my parents (well my dad's anyway) southern childhoods - especially all the racially charged environment of desegregating Little Rock, Arkansas where they both went to high school.

So, all in all, I am all for interracial dating - but its mostly for selfish reasons. Because I do a lot of interracial dating, I want more people in the suburbs around my parents to do it, so that one day when I bring home a guy - if he happens to be black - my parents might be used to the idea by then (fortunately for me, I don't see this event happening anytime too soon, so maybe it will happen).

And like many people have pointed out, the biggest problems in dating are probably more along cultural lines. I have a lot more in common with my last boyfriend than I do with one of my cousins who grew up in the "upper crust" of society and entirely aspires to be the perfect Trophy wife (I wish I were kidding!). Likewise, I was not fond of my best friend's last boyfriend who happened to be Persian. Mostly because he grew up in an affluent society that valued material things much more than I do, so I could never date him (and couldn't understand what my friend was thinking) - but it had nothing (really) to do with the race, because an old roommate of mine was Persian and we got along smashingly well!

I've always enjoyed bringing up this subject. It's one of those "third rail" topics that can be quite illuminating in what it brings bubbling up to the surface.

Sorry to tell you Venom, but Morgan Freeman is married to a white woman.

As for Denzel Washington, he's gone out of his way to ever be seen in a movie kissing a white woman. When Julia Roberts was hanging all over him after he won his Best Actor Oscar, that was a lot more physical contact than she ever had when they made The Pelican Brief together. Denzel has been in films with Meg Ryan, Angelina Jolie, Mimi Rogers, Annette Benning, and Ms. Roberts and the closest he's come to a interracial liaison on film is with Sarita Chodhury in Mississippi Masala and Milia Jolovoich in He Got Game.

Why is one of Hollywood's leading men dodging a romantic interlude with a white woman when other actors such as Tom Cruise, Robert DeNiro, Paul Newman and even Billy Bob Thornton cross color lines without a second thought? Denzel has a prominent place in the hearts of black women and he has said that they don't want to see him in interracial relationship on screen. He's probably right about that too.

For many black women their opposition to black men dating white women is multi-faceted. There are more black women numerically than black men. Every time a black man dates a white woman or is homosexual or incarcerated or dropping dead from drugs, gunshot wounds or police brutality, that's one less brother to choose from. Now add to the equation that there are a lot of black women going to college and coming out to find they can't find a black man of equal education, class and economic status. There's a disconnect here that makes it hard for sisters not only to find a good brother, but any brother at all.

That's one part of the equation. Another part of it is that white women have been held up as THE standard of beauty and desirability in all that is female. White men have put white women on a pedestal and like it or not more than a few black men have bought into the myth. Long blonde hair has become so predominant that you find more than a few black women adding blonde highlights or going all the way blonde. Maybe they think they'll confuse some stupid dude and give him the best of both worlds.

The singer Meshell Ndegeocello put it well in a song called, ""Soul on Ice," for example, offered a flaming critique of race and gender politics in the black community. "Excuse me. Does your white woman go better with your Brooks Brothers suit?" she asks of middle class black men who pass their black sisters by in favor of white women. "You no longer burn for the motherland brown skin. You want blonde-haired, blue-eyed soul, / Snow white passion without the hot comb."

There are far too many brothers who jump right over a Beyonce, Lauren Hill, Halle Berry or Angela Bassett to get next to a Roseanne lookalike. I am dead serious. They have been so brainwashed by the Eurocentric idealized dream white woman that if Janet Jackson and Janet Reno walked into the same club in the same outfit, Janet Reno would get more than a few offers of a drink and a night of rapture.

It's very complicated, but for a multitude of reasons, good and bad, I don't know a lot of black women who are very open-minded about interracial relationships. Even if doesn't effect them personally, chances are they know someone it does.

Oh, and I have to shout out to my fellow Ohioan, Suzy Steamboat. I'm not hatin' on you for opting for white dudes over black dudes. It's a free country and you should travel in a circle that you are most comfortable in. If it happens to be a white male that your sensibilities, tastes, likes and dislikes are most closely aligned, then go for it. I just hope that you aren't dating white males for the same silly and superficial reasons many black males have for dating white women.

By that I mean black men who acquire white women as a trophy. A prize they can win because they now have a little cash and status to attract one. I had a friend who came into a lot of money. He got rid of both his old car and longtime girlfriend. He bought a brand new Volvo and then got a hot brunette to put in the passenger seat next to him. Why not? After all, when you're moving up in the world you gotta flaunt it and what exudes success like a white woman on your arm?

One day he rolled his new ride and new white woman into his neighborhood gas station. After he filled up and walked in to pay, the guy behind the counter who had known him a while looked at the car and the woman sitting in it and said, "I just have one question brother. Which came first---the car or the white woman?"

Although black girls aren't my particular 'cup 'o tea', Im all for it. I grew up being best friend to a Vietnamese kid, who's mom I became a second son to. For years, his mom would swear up and down Id marry a sister of his and his aunts and uncles would joke about me marrying a nice Viet girl when I grew up. Well, since I was in love with that culture anyhow, it sort of grew. If you've ever seen The Corruptor, Im the white guy with a case of what another character in that film affectionately called 'yellow fever'. Lol, I'll leave it at that. But yeah, Im all for it.

How about his last movie which he starred opposite of Eva Menedes I think. Of course he was breaking up with her until the very end though.

What's wrong with black women dating men of other races? Why should they limit themselves to a black only society? I don't think the problem lies with black men embracing women of other races, but the lack of black women to do so. They sound like they are trying to setup a self imposed segregation of the race.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Like I said before, alot of these "trophy" wives sit in the sun and their tanning beds trying to obtain that beautiful brown skin that people with color have naturally. So which is it long blond hair or beautiful brown skin that is THE standard of beauty? Maybe we should check the SI Swimsuit issue this year to get a more definitive answer. I will be willing to volunteer my time for the advancement of this debate.

Well I thought Tyra had dark skin but, I don't agree with Suzy's depiction of the average black woman. "short, kinky hair, wide nostrils, full lips. " While these features are true for some black women I wouldn't say the majority of black women posses these traits. Even so the comparison between Whoopi and Pam Anderson was just way to off to be debatable. You pretty much saying that all black women are comparable to Whoopi and all white women to Pam Anderson.

I know of eight inter-racial couples in the fighter pilot community (just going by black and white here, technically I'm in an inter-racial marriage, but I certainly don't consider it that way myself). Three are white husband/black wife, and five are black husband/white wife. Only one couple I have met in 7 assignments was black man/black woman. I don't really know why that is the case.

Edited to add: I actually think this has more to do with the women (who are more on top during the courtship), than the men. Men are happy when the women are interested. Maybe black women don't (generally, Suzy sounds like an exception) like the relationship dynamic of dating and marrying a white man.

I am about as Ango-saxon as you can possibly get, and have dated several Oriental girls, and East-Indian girl, a Native girl, an Arab girl, and assortment of French Canadians and English Canadians. Never once did it really occur to me I was dating across race, the only time there was a problem was with the Arab girl, and that was not a fuction of race but of religion, I am agnostic and she was islamic. Actually, she was somewhat Islamic, her family was VERY islamic, hence the problem...

Interracial dating is an issue only if you make it an issue.

I think the moral high ground on this question is that I am not for interracial relationships or against them. I am for healthy relationships between two people. That is hard enough.

Our society is not colorblind and there are some cultural differences between groups in our country, but I do like to see interracial relationships and the fact that there are more of them. To me, the trend represents the slow realization of MLK jr's "I have a dream" speech

I wish there weren't people that will only date people of a certain race, but who knows? if it is because of aesthetic reasons, why not. In that way it can be another superficial reason to date someone (hair color, eye color, etc.)

How is it hypocritical, Venom? I can't help who I am attracted to, and I've already stated many reasons why I couldn't picture myself with a black guy. I'm not seeing the hypocrisy.

We are all humans and equal theoretically speaking, but physically, we are not. This is a fact of life. Many people find people of certain races more attractive that others.

I think you are sadly mistaken if you believe every one of those interracial couples married for love, and not because their spouse happened to be a gorgeous white/asian woman. Sure, love could be a part of the equation, but I think it's more of a "I love Carmen Electra/Travis Fimmel" sort of deal, where you fall in love with someone strictly based on their physical appearance. Simply wishing this sort of thing didn't happen doesn't mean it doesn't, and I observe it all the time on an almost daily basis.

The "trophy wife" concept is not nonsense, and simply you saying so based on what appears to be a limited personal exposure to these kinds of race relationships doesn't make it so.

http://www.marinaplasticsurgery.com/plasti...y/asian_eye.cfm

"Every year, thousands of Asian women and men choose eyelid surgery to help restore a more energetic and youthful appearance. There are numerous differences between Caucasian and Asian eyes. Most of them are unseen muscular and other underlying tissue differences, such as the increased fat content and somewhat thicker skin of Asian eyes. Often the crease of the upper eyelids is incomplete or non-existent, allowing the skin to hang over the lashes and conceal much of the eye."

I love how Caucasian was automatically assumed to mean "more energetic and youthful."

http://www.drmeronk.com/asian/asian-overview.html

Quote: "Men and women of Asian heritage seek blepharoplasty eyelid surgery for the same fundamental reason as their Occidental counterparts, namely, to enhance the appearance of the existing eyelid structure so that it better conforms to widely-accepted standards of aesthetics and balance."

You can't spell it out any clearer than that, Venom. European features are considered the most beautiful by almost any race. But why get a black or asian woman who looks white when you can have the real thing?

White women are automatically born with the features emphasized most beautiful by society. All any other race can do is undergo surgery to try to conform. To achieve these features is to "win," so to speak. To get a wife with these features is even better.

http://www.emedicine.com/ent/byname/rhinop...multiracial.htm

Quote: "The conceptualization of the ideal nonwhite nose has changed dramatically in the literature. In the past, many authors assumed that nonwhite patients sought rhinoplasty to gain a more white appearance. Martin reported that both black and white men in the United States ranked black women with white facial features as more beautiful, while men in Nigeria preferred women with black features."

http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/soc...,574337,00.html

Quote: "While most of the patients are female, the procedures favoured by white women - such as breast enhancement - are low on their list of priorities. Chinese women have their eyelids sliced open and restitched to create a western-style fold. Black women seek liposuction to reduce their fuller figures. Rhinoplasty (nose surgery) is popular with almost all non-white groups: south Asians have their stronger noses reduced and tilted at the tip; Afro-Carribeans have their noses narrowed; and east Asians have implants inserted to give more defined bridges."

Nighttimer: I may have superficial reasons for being physically attracted to someone, but in the end, it's all about common interests, no matter what race

It is no one's business...

What I don't get is when people disparage the choices of others while justifying their own choices.

Speaking from the other side of the fence as a white male, I find black women very attractive. It's not just for the "exotic" features, but a whole lot of black ladies that I've met and gotten to know are very down to earth. Then again, I don't go for typical looks, I'm more attracted to someone who's unafraid to dress from the norm as opposed to going with it, and almost always more attracted to that person if their personality is great, even moreso than the looks. I don't know if white women are considered more of a "catch" but it does look that way to me as well.

It's also, in my opinion, that the Beyonce Knowles-Halle Berry ideal is advertised as beautiful. Heck, even Naomi Campbell has lighter skin than some of the ladies I know. What beauty is to society is defined by what the media wants society to think, argues Naomi Klein in The Beauty Myth. And, invariably, this ends up being focused on women to a much larger part than men. Trends define what is beautiful, and I don't see it changing any time soon.

On the same note, it doesn't really annoy me if people are dating whoever they want. Men and women both have the right to choose who they date, and maybe what is needed is more black women being placed in beauty ads. Look around you, how many black women do you see in beauty ads? I took a short walk earlier outside in downtown Toronto, which is absolutely covered with them, and most of the beauty ads I saw were white ladies, one with a black lady and a couple with white guys. In order for more people to associate black as beautiful, black women need more mainstream ad placements (such as Maybelline or Avon, for example) and not just specialty products which just cater to black people. I don't know if I see this happening any time soon.

I have been turning this over in my head, because when Suzy mentioned that there was an abnormally large number of black, male celebrities who date and marry white women, my first thought was: Are celebrities really an accurate depiction of society?

It seems to me that celebrities tend to date and marry other celebrities, and unfortunately black women are underrepresented in show business, which may be evidence of what SuzySteamboat was trying to portray when she said:

This, to me, is just another indication that there is a still a lot of ground that needs to be covered before black women will find themselves in an equal position in society. I can appreciate the frustration that quite rightfully exists. Even though the dislike for interracial relationships is essentially anger directed at the effect rather than the cause, the emotion is still valid.

At the same time, the emotions within those interracial relationships are equally valid. I have no doubt that in some cases, the "trophy" wife theory holds up, but I believe that most people base their long-term relationships on mutual attraction, common interests, and compatible aspirations. Maybe that's my own naivete speaking, but I certainly hope not.

Talking to a black friend here at work, reading this thread, he made a good comment. He said, "you know, what it usually is, we (black guys) went after those fine black women, and they didn't want nothing to do with us, then when we hook up with that Roseanne look alike, we are the ones that are all dissing black girls"

Good point I think.

When did this happen? By looking at the marriage rates posted earlier I think that stats show otherwise. I think that the what he is referring to is the normal rate in which any woman turns down the advances of any male in general.
I agree that the images of black women, along with other minorities like hispanic and indian women, are neglected in the mainstream media but that does not mean they are any less beautiful because of it. Like I said earlier the Miss Universe pageant regularly crown brown skinned contestants more so then the blonde hair and blue eyes type. This year a Puerto Rican from MA won the Miss America pageant. And with Bollywood gain more publicity I expect that more South Asians will be gracing our screens soon.

I voted that it was none of my business.

I wonder though. A lot of mammals have certain behaviour patterns coded into their genes, and one of these is to cross breed when ever possible. Since we humans are also mammals, may be were just following set biological patterns that we have no real control over in an effort to keep the gene pool healthy.

For my own part I've often found the more 'different' from me a girl is, the more I am curious/ attracted to her I become. As a Scandinavian man I don't actually meet that many 'black' women, but those I have met have seemed extremely desirable/ interesting (?) to me.

The perception of beauty though is something else entirely. For my own part, I've never been attracted to what is commonly accepted as beautiful. I don't know why people think Naomi Campbell is beautiful.. personally I'd rather hang out with Whoopi Goldberg any day!

The bottom line though is culture. If my son/ daughter were to come home with a partner from another culture, then my only real concern would be that they were being treated with respect.
Apart from that it ain't none of my business.

I can not see one reason to oppose interracial relationships / marriages etc.



Susy does have a point, as someone said earlier:



I think we need to consider the role of "Madison Avenue" in this issue.

The majority of super models are white. The vast majority of national advertising uses white models. To me this creates a perception that white is somehow more glamorous, sexy, etc. Which in my opinion is totally wrong.

I have known many non-white women who caught my eye over the years. The majority had the good sense to steer clear of me like most other women, but a few fell for my advances none the less. In my experience, in general everyday life there are no differences between people of different skin colors. Culturally, there can be differences, but that is based on how and where someone was raised, not their color.

I voted "none of my business", though I must admit that I do feel all warm and fuzzy around interracial couples. Part of this comes from the idea that if they have children they will be blurring the racial lines that so divide us, another part of that comes from personal experience and reflects only those people I've known- people I've known who were in interracial relationships have been generally more easygoing folks.

For myself... well, children don't enter into the picture. I'm attracted to men of all different races, but my few relationships have been just about equally divided between caucasians like myself and asian guys.

I voted against it....right now everyone is probably thinking im brave or a racist.

I am neither. My reasons are somewhat personal but none are rooted in racism or any segregationlist ideology. I live in a small rural white town and something I notice is that white girls here tend to try to do whatever it takes to date black men. I do not care if someone falls in love with a member of another race but something I notice is that people from other races will only seek out certain races. The white girls in my town think its cool to date a black guy and throw around the n word like their accepted and they seek black men out and you know black men love white women especially blonde women..... not a stereotype just a very supported observation. To me this is so cheezy. To see people date out of race for the sake of dating out of race is truly pathetic and I see it all the time. I see white girls try to pretend they are not doing it and they pretend to be colorblind but their last three boyfriends were all black in an area where 4% of the total population is black. The mathmatical possibilities of that happening are astronomical. I do not care if two people that have something in common from different races come together and fall in love with each other but I think it is pathetic when a white farm girl starts dating a black guy from south Chicago (not a specific statement just a like scenario as to what alot of small town white girls do). I will not date out of race living where I currently live at. It is just to corny and cheesy. If I grew up in an area with a high concentration of minorities it would be different.

After that I do not believe on any superiority of race balogna. As far as I am concerned all life came from Africa and if you traced my bloodlines back enough my ancestors would be black. I promise a hundred fold I do not foster discrimantory racial feelings towards other groups...this is a silly thought as far as I am concerned I just have a problem with people dating out of race simply for the sake of dating out of race. I would love to live in a world that was completely equal where all races and creeds lived in co-habitation side by side and such concepts of interacial dating would be to illogical given the absolute melting pot to even bring up but I do not live in that world and it isnt as if the white girls I know are dating for sociological information so I have to say that small town girls and guys dating out of race is for the most part pathetic and cheezy.

Kalabus, you do realize that there are other races besides black and white, right? When you say you are against interracial relationships, you are saying you are against people dating who they love if that person happens to be of a different race. I have no doubt that what you say happens in your town is true, but that's no where near a valid reason (if there is a valid reason) to be against any person of any race dating outside of their own. You may not think it's racist because of your reasoning, but quite simply, it is. There's no way around that. You stated you would not date a black guy because it's "cheesy." Wow, good reason . How's about dating the person you love? When you actively exclude dating people of a certain race, that is racist, plain and simple. There are other black people besides the black people in your town, and because you've stated that you will never date a black person, that means that you think we're all the same. Everywhere. We have our own, individual personalities, and not all of us think and act and talk like the next. But you will simply look at a guy's skin color and say "there's no way in hell I'd ever date him!" Not because you had a bad experience with a black guy, but because to date him would be cheesy. I honestly cannot think of a worse reason to be against interracial dating.

i saw jungle fever for a class a few days ago, and the discussion after the movie was all about interracial relationships, but to me the movie was more about adultery and drugs. i was surprised when all the women were talking about was the fact that Flipper cheated on Drew with a white woman. it almost made it seem like it would have been ok if it was a black woman. the relationship for paulie, although interracial, does not seem to be suffering from jungle fever, it seems to have a hope, although the society is against it he makes it to her doorbell. i think the movie, although very realistic, is aiming at too many confusing realities together. although it deals a lot with people's reactions to interracial relationships, it also shows that its possible when couples are for it. flipper and angie decided it was not worth it, not because of what people said, but because flipper had a loving family to go back to.

Suzy yes I know multiple races exist but in my personal story and from what I have seen the two biggest purpose out of race daters are white women and black men.....I am also a man just for reference. The options laid down were not favorable for my personal feelings on the matter so I picked no in a sign of protest towards certain people. It isnt about love Suzy. You do not just fall in love with a blackman everytime by chance especially when their is such a low population of blackmen. It has nothing to do with love it has to do with small town people doing something because it is against the norm or because they are in such a hurry to show just how un prejudice they are so that they specifically target and date black men. I exclude dating women of another race because I know I would notice their race and think about it. I would also have to be seeking out that person because small town white people have very little in common with inner city minorities which is where the majority of blacks live. Once again I am speaking on the black and white spectrem because those seem to be the most consistent out of race daters. I do not have a problem with inner-city whites and blacks dating becaue I feel that is a legit courtship based on like interests and shared experience where a true connection is met. I also do not have a problem with black people who grew up in small white towns dating interacially because I feel that they are not doing it just for the sake of dating out of race. It is the people who date out of race on purpose. Who purposely try to fall in love with another race, who will only date black men or who will only date white women. I cannot stand people like that. I think they are cheesy and pathetic.

If I grew up with a black women I would have zero trouble dating her as I know I would be dating her because I knew her not just because she is black.

Kalabus dating someone because they are of a color is obviously wrong but are you saying that not dating someone just because some people do it to be cool is wrong? just because some people do it to get attention doesn't really mean that it's not "love" for others. if you think those people are cheesy you seem like the extreme opposite , still extreme!

I observe that many of the critical comments directed towards Beyonce Knowles, Halle Berry, and other prominent black women in showbiz is that they aren't really "black".

Well, in Halle Berry's case, she's half white (not to mention half British ). Is it not evidence of the underlying racism of all parts of our societies (on both sides of the Atlantic) that Ms Berry isn't allowed to identify herself as white (by either whites or blacks)? Purely on skin colour, she's got to be lighter than George Hamilton or Donatella Versace (or for that matter, Michael Jackson).

But the idea that one must have very dark or almost black skin, a wide nose, woolly black hair, and so on, to qualify as "properly" black displays colossal igorance, apart form anything else. Native Australians often have naturally blonde hair. East Africans (think Ethiopians or the Masai) have rather narrower noses than is typical even of Anglo-Saxons. And even among and within "negro" races, skin colour varies almost as much as within "white" or Caucasian races.

The idea of "black" in this context seems more to do with the rather small part of the black races - typically animist tribes of equatorial West Africa - that were used for slavery, rather than some all-encompassing "blackness", and is therefore more of a continuation of the "them-and-us" nature of race relations that dates from around the same time as the slave trade.

The obvious point that almost none of the models, actors, singers or other entertainers are typical of the racial groups form which they come - to a man and woman being rather taller, slimmer, fitter, larger-headed, and generally better-looking than the rest of us mere mortals - seems to have escaped everyone here. I've never met in person anyone of any race who looks as good as a Halle Berry, a Pamela Anderson (or a Denzel Washington or Tom Cruise - okay he's not taller than most!), yet nobody calls Pammy not properly white because she's supernaturally (and to some extent artificially) good-looking. Nobody says Catherine Zeta Jones isn't a proper Welsh person because she's rather attractive, rather than the mouse-haired, mashed-potato-complexioned, pinch-faced stocky Taffs that typify my countrymen and women.

(Though the state of race relations in times past means that they probably would have done in between the 11th and 14th centuries in Britain - the Welsh were the first practice steps in the path to Anglo-Saxon racial domination, pre-dating even the Irish, I'll have you know, Padraig .)

I'm far removed from the dating game (Thank heavens!) but I think Kalabus is catching a little flak for stating his perspective.

Correct me if I'm wrong Suzy Steamboat and Maya, but it's my experience that young people do at times date outside their race for reasons that have nothing to do with sincere and honest emotions. There are white girls who date black boys for no other reason than to shock and annoy their parents. There are black boys who date white girls (and vice versa) for no other reason than they are curious about the various racial myths about each other. That's not to let white boys and black girls off the hook. That's a whole other set of stereotypes in play there.

I do believe there are those interracial couples who aren't looking for anything than a "Negro Experience" or a "Caucasian Experience." Nothing like a bite of the forbidden fruit.

Personally, I don't care if you dig the chocolate, get your phreak on only with some creamy skin, blonde cheerleader type, get hot and bothered over the thought of Latino Love or got a terminal case of Asian flu. Takes all kinds to make a world and who you choose to love is all of your business and none of mine.

I would only hope that whatever your reasons to go crossing color lines, doing so to be rebellious, cool, or just curious isn't one of them.

peace out.

Nighttimer, my problem is that Kalabus uses that experience to be against all interracial dating. That is completely unreasonable. Kalabus doesn't personally know every single person involved in an interracial marriage, and it's not his place to pass judgement on everyone involved in one and say that they're all being "phony." It is this blatant stereotyping, and then forming opinions based on that stereotype, that I have a problem with.

I've already said that what he says happens in his town probably does. I understand that there are some white girls who date outside their race just to "shock and annoy" their parents. My point is, so what? Does that make it valid to be against any and every interracial relationship? No, that is pure ignorance. It is nothing but pure ignorance on Kalabus' part for him to assume that every black person is like the kind he observes, who only date white girls because it's the "cool" thing to do. This is insulting. He seems unable to realize that black people do not all think and act alike, and I personally find offense to that.

Everyone has different reasons for choosing the people that they date. For some this may be to taste the "forbidden fruit," but this is something that also happens with people of the same race. Our culture is fascinated by the "across the tracks" scenario...between naughty and nice, rich and poor, black and white, etc... The reasons that people choose their partners may be dishonest at times, based on rebellion or greed or even curiosity (which I might add, is not necessarily dishonest depending upon the circumstances. Curiosity spawns the beginnings of most relationships, and the process of discovery can be enlightening), but those people who make dishonest choices should not be a reflection on all people.

We are all human, and the differences between two people of the same race can be far greater than those between two people of different races. I can appreciate some of the concerns that have been raised about this issue, but they are all the result of other outstanding issues.

To condemn a union, between two people who have chosen each other, merely because of race is always wrong.

I think you gals read too much into it, and we fellas may have it a little closer to the truth from the guy's viewpoint, no matter how flowery we put it- we, as fellas, tend to be young and horny (is that one okay for AD? ) when we are dating, and speaking for myself, race was not in the equation, willingness and heartbeat on the other hand were really only the criteria I needed LOL

As far as why the women pick the guys they do? I think the guys who figured that out ended up being written about in historical terms (Cassonova appeared to have it) and most of the time, I don't think the women really understand why they pick the mates they do!

As a non-white human (I am not an albino) I voted "none of my business". I believe that any possible thoughts, feelings, or motives are only relevant to the couple in question. It seems to me that when anyone else questions or comments on their reasons for being together, it just perpetuates many of the problems society faces today. Let it be!

No wonder a black woman is upset when she sees a black man with a white female, if she herself cannot find a decent black male with whom to have a relationship. A great many black males, she observes, date women with lighter skin. Many black women with dark skin have few dating options, hence their sexual aggression, frequent hostility towards white women, and low self esteem--something that affects black women in greater numbers than women of other races.

And no wonder white men are sometimes angered by this miscegenation trend. White men see their women running off with men of another race, and it is perceived by white men that their women are after one thing. That this "one thing" matters to women is sometimes considered to be nothing more than a stereotype. Yet many, many young women, if consulted, will frankly divulge their interest in, and desire for, large phalluses. That women date a black man so as to have a nice large penis may seem ridiculous, but when they themselves admit that this is so, then it becomes something to acknowledge and accept.

I live in California, where it sometimes seems that the rite of initiation for a young college girl is to sleep with a black man. Fair enough; but it is also apparent that many young white women parade around with their black men at their sides in order to incite anger and jealousy in other persons, both male and female.
But we respond by asking: Why should this incite anger? Why should anyone get upset? To answer these questions, it is important to approach the topic of miscegenation with some understanding.

First, some races do not frequently date outside of their ethnicities: Indian women and some Asian women are good examples. Rarely will a Vietnamese woman, for example, date a non-Asian male. This is usually the case for Hispanic women, as well, especially those who were born in Mexico or South America. There are exceptions, but generally Asian, Indian, and Hispanic women date within their own races.

So when a white male in a racially diverse area encounters white women who date black men, multiple white women with a single black male, or other such phenomena, it is more difficult for him to find a woman of the same race. The natural response to this assertion is: "So what? He can look for other races."
He can, of course; but he may encounter trouble when seeking Asian or Hispanic women. Because of cultural differences, many young Asian and Hispanic women are already taken in relationships with a male of the same race (which they often hold for reasons of community or for family's expectations). There is nothing wrong with this; it is just the result of different culture and tradition.

But when the white man in the urban area sees women of his race pursuing black men, it is naturally frustrating for him, as his selection of women within his own race is reduced by two factors: One is the actual number of white women with black men. Two is the number of white women who do not have a black man but who want one, and those will only date black men, even in the presence of acceptable white potential mates. Instead of being criticized for wanting to date within his race and for having frustration and anger because he cannot, a white male should be greeted with understanding and a little compassion.

The same thing can be said for black women. How frustrating for them when they see young black males with white women. Despite the argument that white women are not really better looking than women of other races, to a lonely black female who sees her men with white women, this argument appears to be false.

The list of famous black men who have publicly dated or married white women is truly as long as a black man's phallus: Dennis Rodman, Kobe Bryant, Cuba Gooding, Montel Williams, Morgan Freeman, Taye Diggs, Lenny Kravitz, several NFL stars, David Justice, Michael Jackson, OJ Simpson, Don Cheadle, etc. If we deny that many or most black males prefer women with lighter skin color, then we are lying to ourselves.

I argue that we should not be angry over miscegenation--instead of futile anger, we ought to understand the truths of black male/white female couples (which, of course, is what is really meant by the term "interracial"). If we say that women are seeking more than simple penis-size; if we claim that women are attracted to black men because they just happen to like their personalities or cultural heritage; or if we claim that black males just happen upon relationships with white women by coincidence; then we are just flat-out lying.

Suzy then your problem with me is unfounded. I am not against all or necessarily any interacial dating. I am saying people of one race who purposely date members of another race disgust me and I find them pathetic. I only stated black men and white women as they are the most frequent out of race daters. I also elaborated on them because I had personal observations of such dating. I do not assume every black person is anything excepyt a human. Blacks predominately live in inner-cities. This isnt a racial observation it is a fact. I am not pretending to know anybody inner city blacks I am saying I know white small town/white suburbia. I never said all. You are alluding to things I never said nor believe in. Inner city black males and suburban white females is all I have spoken on. Let me let you understand what bugs me. Robert De Niro, Montell Williams, Carmen Electra. People who predominately will date only one race of people. That is pathetic. I must say you are ignorant to midwest suburban white females and their dating motives. The movie Thirteen is a great example. White women seeking out black men for the sake of them being black. It isnt an isolated or regional occurence such occurences have been parodied. You seem unable to understand where I am coming from. You seem so eager to label me as a racist that you ignore my content. I do not have a problem with inner city anything dating inner city anything. I do not have a problem with suburbia anything dating suburbia anything. I do not see all black males as the same.

This isn't particularly true. In the Asian community changes are measured in generations. Now what you said about asians may be true about the immigrants, and a lot of the first generation, but the second generation is where they become completely "Americanized." The reason for this is not because they think they are better or anything like that, but we find it hard to push our culture onto others. This is because during school we were always seen as immigrants and poked fun of. here's a personal example, when me and my lady go out for curry she needs me to pull the chicken off the bone so see can grab it with the rote (tortilla like bread), or at home I use only the boneless chicken. Then if you think "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" was bad, multiply it by three days and add bunch of sermons in sanscript, and you have a Indian wedding. (add a few half gallon bottles of rum and you have a West Indian wedding ) What Happens is the first generations know first hand of what the second generation is going through and the rules and culture become more relaxed, and it opens them up to interracial relationships. Another factor is when a second generation hangs out with a first generation of another family, then the first generation will become more liberated as well. Sometimes it ain't pretty, like "Mississippi Masala."

I believe that race couldn't matter less in a relationship. Any couple that is in love should be able to pursue their romantic interests to the fullest. In the poll, I voted "none of my business." I firmly believe privacy needs to be protected in this country. Interracial marriages were once illegal, and that brings up the subject of homosexual marriage (but there are plenty of threads in this regard and I won't deviate from the subject at hand).

What people do in the privacy of their own home is up to them; it only bothers me when it is pushed down our throats through the media (San Francisco/New York) and similar institutions.

Of course I'm all for it

Here's my $.02 on the subject:

I like dark skin...always have. Just like some folks find blue eyes attractive, I find dark skin attractive. I've been "that way" since I can remember and that's just a part of who I am. For the newbies out there, I am a white woman and am married to a Black man. Oddly enough, I agree with much of was Suzy and nighttimer have said in their posts...why?

Before I state why, I want to clarify that most of my post will deal with white-black relationships as they are the ones that are most taboo in our (American) society and are the ones that carry the most stereotypical "baggage".

Now then...

First things first: white woman ARE seen as the ultimate prize by American standards (well, the dominant "white" American standards anyway). That's how it's always been (well - in reference to "America" since European colonization, that is) and we should all know by now that standards of beauty do not typically include non-white features (almond-shaped eyes, broad noses, non-textured hair, etc.). As such, it is automatically assumed that anyone who ends up with a white woman on arm must have done so because he thinks white women are "better" or more beautiful or have a higher level of social status on that totem pole and will somehow increase their societal "worth". Although this would be an incorrect assumption, it is something I can understand.

There are so many racial taboos involved in black-white interracial dating (from all sides) that it is often assumed that the people involved have "ulterior" or "impure" motives. I even find myself shaking my head at many a white woman - black man couple because it seems clear that their reasons are not based upon any sort of caring relationship.

One of my first boyfriends (Black) told me that he didn't like Black women and I asked him what his mother thought about that right before I said "goodbye".

In my experience, I'd say 7 out of every 10 white females involved with black males are in it just for "sexual" reasons (i.e. "is the myth of the endowed black male true?") or for "shock value" or because it's currently "in" to "go black". That has truly been my experience and that saddens me greatly as both a person and as a white woman who doesn't like being automatically assumed to fall into that category. It's sad when people ask "it is true what they say about black men's physical prowess" (not in those words, as you can imagine for yourself) and somehow expect that to be an okay question and expect me to actually answer it. Odd how people feel it's okay to ask me that but would never ask a Black woman the same question...

On the flip side, most of the Black men I've known who've dated (casually or otherwise) white women have not had those same "ulterior" motives (from my perspective, of course). They've either been the unwitting/unknowing "trophies" to their white girlfriends, all the while thinking these gals really are interested in them on a "real" level OR have been fortunate enough to find meaningful relationships with white women. Yep, there are "dogs" in all colors and genders so of course some of the Black men in my personal experience have just "gone white" because they heard that white women like to perform certain sexual acts, but this is not true for the majority in my experience.

My husband didn't go looking for a white woman when he met me...we met on the dance floor and I was the once who stood out (I am, after all, a dancer) to him...you could probably say I was "looking" for a black (or dark-skinned) man, but not for any reason other than that is just about all I'm physically attracted to so my first "instinct" would be to look in that direction (so to speak). My mother-in-law (whom I love dearly and who loves me immensely) was hardly thrilled with the thought of her son having to deal with what comes with dating/marrying a white woman, but she knew that love sees no color despite her concerns for her son's potential encounters with folks who don't like interracial relationships. My mother didn't really care as I grew up in a house where the "content of one's character" was what was valued and other cultures were regularly celebrated.

As for white men and black women, there are many a historical taboo to go along with that pairing as well. Let's not forget that white slavemasters often raped their black slaves and thought it perfectly normal to "breed" with black women just to create more slaves. And of course we have the myth of the sex-crazed black woman (and man) and the "white man's fantasy" of landing a black women to "see what she's like"...and don't forget the white fathers (of both white women and white men) who see having black in the family tree as some sort of destruction of the "proud" family name...that somehow their child having children with a Black woman/man somehow devalues the family name...and the thought of the "whiteness" being gradually "blackened" out of the family...all reasons why black-white relationships are so taboo and "scary".

I could go on and on...I would if I had time.

It is hard for me as a white woman married to a black man to NOT be lumped into that "oh-she's-just-doing-this-to-spite-her-parents-or-because-she-wants-to-see-if-"IT"-is-true" category and likewise it's hard for my husband to NOT be lumped into that "he-thinks-white-women-are-better-than-black-women-and-is-obviously-ashamed-to-be-Black" category. Odd as it may seem, people who are just acquaintances of my husband and who don't know anything about me are VERY surprised when they find out that I am white. Why? Because he doesn't fit that "stereotype" of the type of Black male who'd be in an interracial relationship (with a white woman). Likewise, people say I don't "look" like I'd be married to a Black man (and I know what they mean, which is rather unfortunate, IMO).

One of the biggest "beefs" I have with people who oppose IR relationships is the "what about the children" argument. What about them? Kids have problems and being multiracial is likely to be an asset before it's a problem as I see it. Yep, some people are prejudiced/bigoted and think that "race-mixing" and "Miscegenation" is wrong/evil/unnatural...and these people might make it harder in some ways to be a biracial/multiracial child. But it's hard to be a smart child, it's hard to be a a not-so-smart child, it's hard to be a short child, it's hard to be a tall child, it's hard to be a poor child, etc. It's one thing to recognize the likelihood or potential for "problems" biracial/multiracial children might face due to their ethnic makeup...but it's another to deem IR relationships as bad because of it.

Suzy and nighttimer's wife are not alone in their frustration at white women with Black men. I, as a white woman married to a Black man am oft frustrated when another celebrity has a white woman on his arm or when another white woman proudly parades her black trophy around for all to see without so much as a real care about him as a person. It sickens me and it makes people question MY relationship because of those stereotypes that are, sadly, usually true in my experience.

Sorry for rambling...this is my first post back (aside from my "lookie I"m here" post in Casual Convo) so I guess I got a little excited!

Hi all!!!!!

When I read this, it got me thinking (thank you kmsouthern ).

I have an uncle who swears that because he has a flat nose there must have been a black in our family tree (he is more vulgar, but I will spare everyone here). When I heard him say that the first time, I asked "so what?". He seemed appalled that it didn't matter to me. He is 70 years old and from another era, but it still made me lose some respect for him. And it also makes me wonder how many people still think this way? After all, he raised children himself. Did he pass these horrible thoughts onto my cousins? Where did he get the notion that it was horrible for blacks and whites to love and have families together? My mother was raised in the same house, and she doesn't think that way. Neither does my other uncle. Sorry to ramble, but my mind is going a billion miles a minute thinking about how a close family member can be so radically different from those that thought he was above such biased thought...

If I were to eschew interracial relationships my options would be few indeed. since I'm such a mutt myself. I'd be limited to 1/2 white, 1/4 Asian, 1/8 Native American, 1/8 black hybrids like myself. Just how many of those do you suppose there are? Luckily for me, I'm xenophilic.