Full Version: National Guard service
This topic has been the bone of contention for awhile now.
During Vietnam was Guard service a way out of going to war?
Throughout my life I have heard this particular argument, often expressed in a rant from some very angry people who did indeed serve during wartime and had an extremely low opinion of those who went to the Guard to. in their opinion "hide out". This has been expressed countless times in the various media forms. Music, tv, movies, political commentary. Creedence has a song with this a a key point of protest. It was a main point of protest over the war in Vietnam itself.
Rich kids got out of Vietnam by getting into the guard.
The present furor over the Presidents service has brought this question up.
Is there any real difference between this tactic and being a war protester who would refuse to go?
Did the sons of the wealthy use this method to get out of combat?
If you get into politics should the fact you did either be used legitimately against you?
During Vietnam was Guard service a way out of going to war?
Throughout my life I have heard this particular argument, often expressed in a rant from some very angry people who did indeed serve during wartime and had an extremely low opinion of those who went to the Guard to. in their opinion "hide out". This has been expressed countless times in the various media forms. Music, tv, movies, political commentary. Creedence has a song with this a a key point of protest. It was a main point of protest over the war in Vietnam itself.
Rich kids got out of Vietnam by getting into the guard.
The present furor over the Presidents service has brought this question up.
Is there any real difference between this tactic and being a war protester who would refuse to go?
Did the sons of the wealthy use this method to get out of combat?
If you get into politics should the fact you did either be used legitimately against you?
QUOTE(christopher @ Feb 20 2004, 04:06 PM)
This topic has been the bone of contention for awhile now.
During Vietnam was Guard service a way out of going to war?
Is there any real difference between this tactic and being a war protester who would refuse to go?
Did the sons of the wealthy use this method to get out of combat?
If you get into politics should the fact you did either be used legitimately against you?
During Vietnam was Guard service a way out of going to war?
Is there any real difference between this tactic and being a war protester who would refuse to go?
Did the sons of the wealthy use this method to get out of combat?
If you get into politics should the fact you did either be used legitimately against you?
Good questions, Christopher.
Joining the National Guard during those days was a way to serve the nation and minimize to some extent the chances you'd end up in Vietnam. I'm sure some guys joined specifically for that reason, but there were other reasons as well. A guy I grew up with joined the Colorado Air National Guard because he wanted to learn to fly jets, build some hours and eventually be an airline pilot. So, he signed up, learned to fly F-100's and not long after he joined his unit, they deployed to Nam. Got a bit more than he bargained for.
He made it back ok and did eventually end up in left seat of a United 747 and told me that nothing he would encounter in that airplane could possibly scare him after having been shot at by Russian SAMs over Vietnam. Still though, as I have posted in this forum previously, 25,000 National Guardsmen ended up in Vietnam and 97 of them were killed, so it wasn't ironclad.I think there is a difference between joining the guard and just refusing to go, there were other options available than that. If you were genuinely against war, all war on moral or religious grounds, you could apply to become a Consciencious Objector and request non-combat service elsewhere.
I don't know about wealthy, never really knew anyone wealthy, but I knew some guys in the Guard who weren't. So, I don't really know.
I think past actions and the motives behind those actions are legitimate issues for consideration in politics. It's a part of the person and their character and it seems to me that's an important thing. How much importance to place on such things is something that's best left to each voter I think.
Good thread, Christopher, good job!
QUOTE(christopher @ Feb 20 2004, 07:06 PM)
Is there any real difference between this tactic and being a war protester who would refuse to go?
War protestors who refused to go faced serious repercussions.QUOTE
Did the sons of the wealthy use this method to get out of combat?
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."- Colin Powell’s autobiography, My American Journey, p. 148QUOTE
If you get into politics should the fact you did either be used legitimately against you?
I'm somewhat ambivalent about the issue. The Vietnam war was a long time ago (one of my first memories is the Saigon airlift) and people do change with time... that said, it is striking how many of our current generation of hawks managed to avoid combat when the call came for them.
Great questions Christopher! I would say that any tactic used to avoid slavery (the "draft") is valid and that no person ("rich" or "poor") should apologize for attempting to and/or succeeding in escaping enslavement!
QUOTE(Grendel72 @ Feb 20 2004, 06:24 PM)
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."- Colin Powell’s autobiography, My American Journey, p. 148
With all due respect to Secretary Powell, and I mean that sincerely, he is mistaken about the Reserve and the Guard......
QUOTE
Rank and organization: Lieutenant, Junior Grade, U.S. Naval Reserve, Sea, Air, and Land Team (SEAL). place and date: Near Nha Trang Bay, Republic of Vietnam, 14 March 1969. Entered service at: Omaha, Nebr. Born: 27 August 1943, Lincoln, Nebr. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as a SEAL team leader during action against enemy aggressor (Viet Cong) forces. Acting in response to reliable intelligence, Lt. (J.G..) Kerrey led his SEAL team on a mission to capture important members of the enemy's area political cadre known to be located on an island in the bay of Nha Trang. In order to surprise the enemy, he and his team scaled a 350-foot sheer cliff to place themselves above the ledge on which the enemy was located. Splitting his team in 2 elements and coordinating both, Lt. (J.G..) Kerrey led his men in the treacherous downward descent to the enemy's camp. Just as they neared the end of their descent, intense enemy fire was directed at them, and Lt. (J.G.) Kerrey received massive injuries from a grenade which exploded at his feet and threw him backward onto the jagged rocks. Although bleeding profusely and suffering great pain, he displayed outstanding courage and presence of mind in immediately directing his element's fire into the heart of the enemy camp. Utilizing his radioman, Lt. (J.G.) Kerrey called in the second element's fire support which caught the confused Viet Cong in a devastating crossfire. After successfully suppressing the enemy's fire, and although immobilized by his multiple wounds, he continued to maintain calm, superlative control as he ordered his team to secure and defend an extraction site. Lt. (J.G.) Kerrey resolutely directed his men, despite his near unconscious state, until he was eventually evacuated by helicopter. The havoc brought to the enemy by this very successful mission cannot be over-estimated. The enemy soldiers who were captured provided critical intelligence to the allied effort. Lt. (J.G.) Kerrey's courageous and inspiring leadership, valiant fighting spirit, and tenacious devotion to duty in the face of almost overwhelming opposition sustain and enhance the finest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service.
The above is the citation for the Medal of Honor awarded to Lt.(jg) Joseph R. Kerrey, US Naval Reserve for his heroic actions in Vietnam. Many of you would know him better as former Senator Bob Kerrey (D-Neb). The Reserve and Guard had some pretty brave people too.
QUOTE(Aquilla @ Feb 20 2004, 11:17 PM)
QUOTE(Grendel72 @ Feb 20 2004, 06:24 PM)
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."- Colin Powell’s autobiography, My American Journey, p. 148
With all due respect to Secretary Powell, and I mean that sincerely, he is mistaken about the Reserve and the Guard......
Hmm... I only see this as one example where Powell might not have been right about the Reserve. And it's only one example. And it's not about the Guard.
QUOTE(amf @ Feb 21 2004, 07:57 AM)
Hmm... I only see this as one example where Powell might not have been right about the Reserve. And it's only one example. And it's not about the Guard.
I see a pattern here. Provide one instance, they want two. Well, I'm not going to cite the actions of each and every member of the Reserve and National Guard here, even if I had that information. The rabid anti-Bush folks would still want more and more. But, just for fun, I'll do one more guy. He's a pretty special guy too.
QUOTE
Rank and organization: Colonel (then Major), U.S. Air Force, Forward Air Controller Pilot of an F-100 aircraft. Place and date: North Vietnam, 26 August 1967. Entered service at: Sioux City, lowa. Born: 24 February 1925, Sioux City, lowa.
On 26 August 1967, Col. Day was forced to eject from his aircraft over North Vietnam when it was hit by ground fire. His right arm was broken in 3 places, and his left knee was badly sprained. He was immediately captured by hostile forces and taken to a prison camp where he was interrogated and severely tortured. After causing the guards to relax their vigilance, Col. Day escaped into the jungle and began the trek toward South Vietnam. Despite injuries inflicted by fragments of a bomb or rocket, he continued southward surviving only on a few berries and uncooked frogs. He successfully evaded enemy patrols and reached the Ben Hai River, where he encountered U.S. artillery barrages. With the aid of a bamboo log float, Col. Day swam across the river and entered the demilitarized zone. Due to delirium, he lost his sense of direction and wandered aimlessly for several days. After several unsuccessful attempts to signal U.S. aircraft, he was ambushed and recaptured by the Viet Cong, sustaining gunshot wounds to his left hand and thigh. He was returned to the prison from which he had escaped and later was moved to Hanoi after giving his captors false information to questions put before him. Physically, Col. Day was totally debilitated and unable to perform even the simplest task for himself. Despite his many injuries, he continued to offer maximum resistance. His personal bravery in the face of deadly enemy pressure was significant in saving the lives of fellow aviators who were still flying against the enemy. Col. Day's conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Air Force and reflect great credit upon himself and the U.S. Armed Forces.
On 26 August 1967, Col. Day was forced to eject from his aircraft over North Vietnam when it was hit by ground fire. His right arm was broken in 3 places, and his left knee was badly sprained. He was immediately captured by hostile forces and taken to a prison camp where he was interrogated and severely tortured. After causing the guards to relax their vigilance, Col. Day escaped into the jungle and began the trek toward South Vietnam. Despite injuries inflicted by fragments of a bomb or rocket, he continued southward surviving only on a few berries and uncooked frogs. He successfully evaded enemy patrols and reached the Ben Hai River, where he encountered U.S. artillery barrages. With the aid of a bamboo log float, Col. Day swam across the river and entered the demilitarized zone. Due to delirium, he lost his sense of direction and wandered aimlessly for several days. After several unsuccessful attempts to signal U.S. aircraft, he was ambushed and recaptured by the Viet Cong, sustaining gunshot wounds to his left hand and thigh. He was returned to the prison from which he had escaped and later was moved to Hanoi after giving his captors false information to questions put before him. Physically, Col. Day was totally debilitated and unable to perform even the simplest task for himself. Despite his many injuries, he continued to offer maximum resistance. His personal bravery in the face of deadly enemy pressure was significant in saving the lives of fellow aviators who were still flying against the enemy. Col. Day's conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Air Force and reflect great credit upon himself and the U.S. Armed Forces.
Col. Day flew F-100 fighters in Vietnam for the Iowa Air National Guard. In addition to his Medal of Honor, Col Day has been awarded nearly 70 other decorations and awards including the following....
the Air Force Cross
the Distinguished Service Medal
the Distinguished Flying Cross
the Bronze Star for Valor with two oak leaf clusters
the Purple Heart with three clusters
Real slacker this guy.
QUOTE(Aquilla @ Feb 20 2004, 11:17 PM)
With all due respect to Secretary Powell, and I mean that sincerely, he is mistaken about the Reserve and the Guard......
His statement has been reflected by every single Vietnam veteran I've ever spoken with. Did any senators or congressmen of the time lose a son in Vietnam?
QUOTE(Grendel72 @ Mar 4 2004, 02:27 PM)
QUOTE(Aquilla @ Feb 20 2004, 11:17 PM)
With all due respect to Secretary Powell, and I mean that sincerely, he is mistaken about the Reserve and the Guard......
His statement has been reflected by every single Vietnam veteran I've ever spoken with. Did any senators or congressmen of the time lose a son in Vietnam?
Let's also be clear on the numbers.
2.59 million U.S. soldiers served in Vietnam over the course of the war.
Of those, 8700 were from the National Guard.
That's 0.3% of all the fighting men who went to Vietnam.
Yes, you had a very good chance of never being shot at by hiding out in the Guard.
And the "I worked it out with the Guard so I could leave early and go to Harvard" seems like something else that just happened to work out in Bush's favor. How convenient!
QUOTE
but the true facts are that members of the National Guard did serve honorably during the Vietnam years. The "reality" is that to denigrate their service as a "bunch" of rich kids "hiding" is revisionist history and a slap in the faces of the names of those some 100 Guard on The Wall.
QUOTE
No one will successfully portray the Guard as anything less than honorable service
but the reality is and always WILL be that the sons of wealthy men went to the guard to HIDE!
but the reality is and always WILL be that the sons of wealthy men went to the guard to HIDE!
Then reread my post. I clearly state there was no dishonor in the Guard.
The reality remains however that rich kids got in there through pulled strings and it was how they made sure they would never see combat.
I am of course impressed by the Hannity school of misdirection and fraud. Deflect the intent and meaning of the argument and form an attack to try and destroy your opponents character. I very clearly stated I had NO disrespect for the Guards. Your response is to warp what I said and try to SPIN it into an attack on the guard. So I will counter with this
Did the sons of wealthy families use the Guard to assure they would never see combat in Vietnam?
QUOTE
Did the sons of wealthy families use the Guard to assure they would never see combat in Vietnam?
It is possible that some sons, wealthy or otherwise joined the Guard to lessen the chance they'd see combat in Vietnam. There were no assurances for that however. Each would have to speak to their own motivations though. In the case of President Bush it would be difficult to make the case that his Guard service was an indication that he was somehow fearful for his own safety. Cowards don't strap on a jet fighter whether they are flying into combat or not.
QUOTE
Cowards don't strap on a jet fighter whether they are flying into combat or not.
No but cowboys do. So do most men. We bunjee jump fly fast planes drive fast cars and race fast motorcycles. We chase after women we know are bad for us but hell LOOK at those legs. We say "I betcha can't" of "I dare ya" and the most dangerous of all is the "I wonder what would happen". Somehow most of us survive to adulthood.
Just because he crawled into a jet doesn't mean much at all. As a matter of fact IMO it fits his character at the time perfectly which was one of youthful testosterone. I can identify with that. I have done more things than I care to remember with the underlying justification of "just cause,,well y'know"
For me whether he did or not is not really an issue. It just infuriates me that there are those suddenly trying to deny that guard service wasn't used to keep the sons of wealthy families out of Vietnam.
I know quite a few fighter pilots who would take exception to your characterization of what they do and why they do it, but that's probably another thread somewhere sometime.
And it infuriates me that there are those who claim that was the only reason for service in the Guard, wealthy or not.
QUOTE
It just infuriates me that there are those suddenly trying to deny that guard service wasn't used to keep the sons of wealthy families out of Vietnam.
And it infuriates me that there are those who claim that was the only reason for service in the Guard, wealthy or not.
QUOTE
I know quite a few fighter pilots who would take exception to your characterization of what they do and why they do it
Aquilla are you just being contrary for the hell of it? I'll see your fighter pilots and raise you several more PLUS a family of fighter pilots that goes back to the founding yahoos who first jumped into cloth covered wooden crates and yelled let her rip.
You will hear paratroopers say that man was never designed to jump out of perfectly good aircraft, it also follows that there is a certain lack of sanity involved with anyone who willingly straps themselves to a rocket and also yells let her rip.
These are people who would never be able to work 9 to 5 or behind a desk. They do it because there is risk involved. There is thrill. It is beyond most men these days to even try it let alone do it day after day. But to say that it proves anything in regards to service to ones country falls short. For most it is just the perfect excuse to join. They get to fly jets. It doesn't demean their service either. But deep down it is the jets they lust after. They could never be satisfied with anything less.
Christopher I agree. No where does Powell’s statement discredit the service of the National Guard, only that special considerations were given to the privileged. Of course you should have known supporters of Dubya would take exception and move the shell on you. Hannity has them trained like lapdogs.
I think if you had political aspirations then being a conscious objector wouldn’t have the sizzle as someone who served in the Guard. No telling how many potential candidates have passed up opportunities to run for office because they were objectors and would have that thrown back at them, we’ll never know.
Not to belittle the National Guard but if you do the math obviously a vast majority of the Guard were not called up for active duty and of the 50,000+ who lost their lives, 97 were from the Guard so your chances of survival were pretty good.
With out question, I know a few. And if they couldn’t get in on their own merit then strings were pulled to place them ahead of other more qualified applicants. Exhibit 1: Dubya. I haven’t read to many accounts about sons of tomato pickers whose fathers got them special consideration.
There’s been a lot of focus on this board and in the media about Dubya’s ‘disappearance’ while in the National Guard. I’m still not convinced either way, but my beef was that he got in ahead of other qualified candidates by Daddy String Puller. That’s the real crime in my opinion and Colonel Powell’s point.
QUOTE
Is there any real difference between this tactic and being a war protester who would refuse to go?
I think if you had political aspirations then being a conscious objector wouldn’t have the sizzle as someone who served in the Guard. No telling how many potential candidates have passed up opportunities to run for office because they were objectors and would have that thrown back at them, we’ll never know.
Not to belittle the National Guard but if you do the math obviously a vast majority of the Guard were not called up for active duty and of the 50,000+ who lost their lives, 97 were from the Guard so your chances of survival were pretty good.
QUOTE
Did the sons of the wealthy use this method to get out of combat?
With out question, I know a few. And if they couldn’t get in on their own merit then strings were pulled to place them ahead of other more qualified applicants. Exhibit 1: Dubya. I haven’t read to many accounts about sons of tomato pickers whose fathers got them special consideration.
There’s been a lot of focus on this board and in the media about Dubya’s ‘disappearance’ while in the National Guard. I’m still not convinced either way, but my beef was that he got in ahead of other qualified candidates by Daddy String Puller. That’s the real crime in my opinion and Colonel Powell’s point.
.3% is pretty good odds you won't be going to Vietnam Aquilla- there are better odds in Vegas.
It is a pretty well known fact that the guard is where the rich hid, and that being able to enlist in the guard was a pretty good alternative to going to Vietnam as well.
My Dad was in the Alaska guard at that time, and so was my brother (he is 11 years older than me) and they both retired from the gaurd, and my Dad was an E-9, my brother an E-7, and they will both tell you that it was a good place to hide from Vietnam at the time, my Dad actually volunteered to go and went. I was in the guard and will be again next week. The reality is, the wealthy types were given choice assignments in the Vietnam era for precisely the kind of "cover" you are giving them Aquilla- they have the "you are dishonoring the whole guard by questioning me" defense- which is dishonrorable in and of itself.
It is a pretty well known fact that the guard is where the rich hid, and that being able to enlist in the guard was a pretty good alternative to going to Vietnam as well.
My Dad was in the Alaska guard at that time, and so was my brother (he is 11 years older than me) and they both retired from the gaurd, and my Dad was an E-9, my brother an E-7, and they will both tell you that it was a good place to hide from Vietnam at the time, my Dad actually volunteered to go and went. I was in the guard and will be again next week. The reality is, the wealthy types were given choice assignments in the Vietnam era for precisely the kind of "cover" you are giving them Aquilla- they have the "you are dishonoring the whole guard by questioning me" defense- which is dishonrorable in and of itself.
QUOTE(Fife and Drum @ Mar 8 2004, 02:11 PM)
Of course you should have known supporters of Dubya would take exception and move the shell on you. Hannity has them trained like lapdogs.
Can we please avoid inflammatory comments like this and debate in a civil fashion?
TOPIC TO DEBATE
During Vietnam was Guard service a way out of going to war?
TOPIC TO DEBATE
During Vietnam was Guard service a way out of going to war?
QUOTE(christopher @ Mar 8 2004, 10:46 AM)
Aquilla are you just being contrary for the hell of it? I'll see your fighter pilots and raise you several more PLUS a family of fighter pilots that goes back to the founding yahoos who first jumped into cloth covered wooden crates and yelled let her rip.
No, Christopher, I'm not being contrary just for the hell of it. I am merely pointing out that flying a jet fighter is not exactly the kind of thing that a coward would choose to do. It is a dangerous job, even in peacetime. If President Bush were truly a coward as has been alleged by some in this forum, he would not have applied to be a fighter pilot.
I have watched this debate for quite awhile and did not care to get involved.
But reading all the comments concerning the National Guard,I had to give my 2 cents worth.
I enlisted in the Air Force back in the late 1960s and there were always jokes and most of my friends in the military agreed that the National Guard was a place to go to escape going to Vietnam or the war.
I was stationed in Vietnam and Philippines and the NG was always thought of a Rich Mans resort.
Or the NG was a place to go if you had connections.
There is no way anyone can say this was not true.
But reading all the comments concerning the National Guard,I had to give my 2 cents worth.
I enlisted in the Air Force back in the late 1960s and there were always jokes and most of my friends in the military agreed that the National Guard was a place to go to escape going to Vietnam or the war.
I was stationed in Vietnam and Philippines and the NG was always thought of a Rich Mans resort.
Or the NG was a place to go if you had connections.
There is no way anyone can say this was not true.
*Of course* the guard was one way to avoid vietnam at that time. Its just disgusting to see these Hannitized zombies try and rewrite history to make Dubya look good. Dubya is just another politician, dont sell your integrity for him.
Yech, I cant imagine rewriting history to make my favored politician look good. Its disgusting and says a lot about someones level of credulity and frankly, their character.
Yech, I cant imagine rewriting history to make my favored politician look good. Its disgusting and says a lot about someones level of credulity and frankly, their character.
QUOTE
I am merely pointing out that flying a jet fighter is not exactly the kind of thing that a coward would choose to do. It is a dangerous job, even in peacetime. If President Bush were truly a coward as has been alleged by some in this forum, he would not have applied to be a fighter pilot.
I guess I am not stating my point accurately then. No, flying jets is not a cowardly thing to do. But neither does it really fall into the courage arena either.
Men often do very dangerous things just because they are dangerous OR because it is considered cool.
My daddy is a salesman does not rate as cool to a child as does my daddy is a fireman or a fighter pilot. Those would earn maximum cool points.
To a young man like Dubya had a reputation of being, flying jets would have been considered a cool thing to do. If you poll men they in general they will wish to be things like Army Rangers, Marines, or Navy Seals. These are most often chosen. Fighter Pilot would probably rank up top.
Being a fighter pilot in actual combat requires bravery. Just tooling around the skies of texas qualifies as a lark. I won't even bring in if Bush was a coward. I don't think he was. I think he was a spoiled brat rich kid who never had to earn a thing in his life.
QUOTE(christopher @ Mar 8 2004, 09:31 PM)
Being a fighter pilot in actual combat requires bravery. Just tooling around the skies of texas qualifies as a lark. I won't even bring in if Bush was a coward. I don't think he was. I think he was a spoiled brat rich kid who never had to earn a thing in his life.
Oh really?
How do you figure, Christopher? Texas air is safer than oh say, Arizona air is? How does that work? In another thread you wrote......QUOTE
F 16s crash here in Arizona from out of Luke Air force Base so often its almost comical. We're talking well into the double digits here. Seems they are worn out and randomly fail.
As far as Santasdad's response is concerned, I'm not going to even dignify that with a comment.
QUOTE
F 16s crash here in Arizona from out of Luke Air force Base so often its almost comical. We're talking well into the double digits here. Seems they are worn out and randomly fail.
Yes they have been lately. For at least the last 5 or 6 years. However I beleive that since Luke does training their planes are very used. This however is very recent(and very disturbing, they need the f22s).
Yet again you continue to dance around the point I am making. Its all part of the thrill. The fact that it is not safe. You ground any pilot at all they will go nuts. I would imagine after being a fighter pilot any other job would be dull and lifeless.
But for those who can qualify to hop in one of those things Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way. Most men would sacrifice a testicle to fly them.
BUT just because there is an element of danger involved in the day to day aspects to it doesn't add a thing to Bush's service time because he was well insulated from the actual danger of combat.
Your plane malfunctioning is nowhere the same. You can bail out and there will not be people with guns on the ground waiting for you. There will be no danger of bullets tearing through your body. Or a big ole missile flying right up your backside.
To even compare the two is an insult to those who did fly combat. You simply cannot in any credible fashion compare the two.
They have these fast little planes at the airport down the road from me. These things are super fast unbeleivably manuverable and also very dangerous. If you sit along the road you can see guys in their late 50s run from their cars to these planes like a 6 year old at the fair. They immediatly revert to teenage years. The things they do in the air are incredible.
Dubya would have been like a kid in the candy store unchaperoned. I am not going to try and call him coward. AGAIN I don't think he was. But they are just not the same.
Christopher,
I spent nearly 20 years of my professional life working on high performance military aircraft and with the pilots that flew them on a pretty much day to day basis. Heck, I car-pooled with one of them for a couple of years. Now I will grant you that those guys were the absolute cream of the crop when it came to flying skills and they'd all been in combat mostly as Weasals in nam, but even when they were flying "routine" flights to keep their hours up or flying chase in aircraft like an F-4 or T-38, they understood the danger involved. Punching out over the desert in Nevada isn't nearly as bad as over the jungle in nam, but it's still a dangerous thing to do and jet fighters like the F-102 have ejection seats for a reason. Getting into one of those airplanes whether it is at an AFB in Texas or at Da Nang is not something that a coward does, and it has been alleged in this forum (not by you, but others) that President Bush was a coward. My point is simply that cowards don't fly jet fighters, whether they are rich or not.
The airplanes you've seen at your local airport sound like aerobatic airplanes, probably Pitts Specials and they're pretty cool little airplanes and you can do some amazing things in them. I know, I've flown them. But as much fun as they are, they are nowhere close to a high performance jet fighter. You are moving into a whole different level there.
I spent nearly 20 years of my professional life working on high performance military aircraft and with the pilots that flew them on a pretty much day to day basis. Heck, I car-pooled with one of them for a couple of years. Now I will grant you that those guys were the absolute cream of the crop when it came to flying skills and they'd all been in combat mostly as Weasals in nam, but even when they were flying "routine" flights to keep their hours up or flying chase in aircraft like an F-4 or T-38, they understood the danger involved. Punching out over the desert in Nevada isn't nearly as bad as over the jungle in nam, but it's still a dangerous thing to do and jet fighters like the F-102 have ejection seats for a reason. Getting into one of those airplanes whether it is at an AFB in Texas or at Da Nang is not something that a coward does, and it has been alleged in this forum (not by you, but others) that President Bush was a coward. My point is simply that cowards don't fly jet fighters, whether they are rich or not.
The airplanes you've seen at your local airport sound like aerobatic airplanes, probably Pitts Specials and they're pretty cool little airplanes and you can do some amazing things in them. I know, I've flown them. But as much fun as they are, they are nowhere close to a high performance jet fighter. You are moving into a whole different level there.
We've moved far off topic here.
It still isn't the point. I know that it is still dangerous. But they and you will go anyway. There is no way you couldn't. If you did there would always be an empty spot. Men do not fly jets to serve their country. They fly jets because they have to. Something draws them to it. Service to country is the added bonus. But they would fly them regardless. Same as I could never give up hairpins on a really fast motorcycle that handles like part of me. Bush is a cowboy at heart. Jets are exciting. He was drawn like a moth to a flame. Your friends keep their hours up because if they don't fly they die. Its that simple.
Bush was a wild child. He admits that. It is to Laura's credit that he moved beyond that stage of his life. He matured. All men who survive past 30 do. but in the back of our heads is an 18 year old voice going "Hell yeah I'll do it".
QUOTE
You are moving into a whole different level there
It still isn't the point. I know that it is still dangerous. But they and you will go anyway. There is no way you couldn't. If you did there would always be an empty spot. Men do not fly jets to serve their country. They fly jets because they have to. Something draws them to it. Service to country is the added bonus. But they would fly them regardless. Same as I could never give up hairpins on a really fast motorcycle that handles like part of me. Bush is a cowboy at heart. Jets are exciting. He was drawn like a moth to a flame. Your friends keep their hours up because if they don't fly they die. Its that simple.
Bush was a wild child. He admits that. It is to Laura's credit that he moved beyond that stage of his life. He matured. All men who survive past 30 do. but in the back of our heads is an 18 year old voice going "Hell yeah I'll do it".
QUOTE(christopher @ Mar 8 2004, 11:20 PM)
Same as I could never give up hairpins on a really fast motorcycle that handles like part of me.
Now you are talking totally crazy. I would NEVER vote for a guy who did THAT!
Was he a coward? Doubtful, he was a pilot. Did he use connections to avoid Vietnam? Probably.
I joined the Army two years after Saigon fell.
Served with a lot men that were drafted, some went to Vietnam, others stayed states side. The Guard in those days was regarded as a joke. Most of the Guardsmen and reservists had to have connections during the war to find a slot.
As for flying, well I flew helicopters. Medevac for 5 years in the reserves. Anybody how thinks that military flying isn't a lot of danger has no clue.
So I would state that a lot of wealth young men avoided combat within the Guard and Reserves. And those that choose to fly made up for their avoidance too.
Am fairly neutral on the subject, but have the utmost respect for those in the Guard and Reserves today.
Served with a lot men that were drafted, some went to Vietnam, others stayed states side. The Guard in those days was regarded as a joke. Most of the Guardsmen and reservists had to have connections during the war to find a slot.
As for flying, well I flew helicopters. Medevac for 5 years in the reserves. Anybody how thinks that military flying isn't a lot of danger has no clue.
So I would state that a lot of wealth young men avoided combat within the Guard and Reserves. And those that choose to fly made up for their avoidance too.
Am fairly neutral on the subject, but have the utmost respect for those in the Guard and Reserves today.
Well Bush did fly an obsolete plane. Meaning who flew a plane that would have never been used. Meaning if hell did freeze over twice and Bush did get the call he still couldnt have went because he flew a plane that the military had stopped using. Coward is too strong of a word. Hiding rich kid with zero chance of ever seeing nam is more like it. Vietnam was a pointless war i my view. I do not have a problem with people avoiding it...until they try to make it look like they didnt avoid it. You dont see many blasting Cheney who hung on and made sure he stayed in college until he was 26 and could no longer be drafted.
This is a simplified version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.