No one has posted this news story I am a bit suprised..or daft and not able to locate it?


Madrid Bombings Kill at Least 190 Al Qaeda-Linked Group Claims Responsibility

What will Europe's response/reaction be to the startling fact that the terrorism that America and the Bush admin keeps warning us all of has finally made it's way to them?

I think Europe's response to this latest attack, and they have suffered attacks in Europe from terrorist groups for many, many years, will be to keep on doing what they've been doing in the War against Terrorism. Other than disagreements among some European nations over Iraq, as near as I can tell there's been pretty good international cooperation against terrorist groups and I would expect that to continue.

Spain was our ally in Iraq, this was overdue I think. I am suprised they took so long. Except for the Iraq mess, we have gotten great cooperation from Europe on Terrorism related needs. Hell the French have been great allies on that for us.
I think the day of these terrorist groups definetly is over.
If Iraq somehow manages to work out and they estabilish a democracy I think the middle east terror groups are in for some really bad days.

Madrid bombings carry al-Qaida hallmark


International Reaction to Madrid Bombings
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Mar11.html



A couple more links and quotes
I am sick, I am heartbroken.

Watching the news on this unfold- I am not seeing much about Al-quaida on this- it appears to be domestic terrorism for them- Basque seperatists again- (Etta?)- but Europe has been way more pro-active against actual terrorists than us- France, Germany have not only shared info with us but with each other and have busted many cells.

Hi!
Yes CruisingRam! you are right!...I´m spanish spoken native (so please excuse my grammar mistakes) E

Even though this Al-quaida already took responsability of this terrorism act, the most suspected organization at the moment is the ETA Organization (I have only spanish-written newspapers). People were protesting so far on the streets only against the ETA!. Seems to me (only a feeling), the spaniards have already chosen who they feel is guilty!.

Well, some people in Spain think it could have been an operation orquestrated by the two terrorist groups (ETA, Al-quaida) but so far this Hypothesis is very seldom named!. Investigations are still on the way!.

I think Europeans have to realise that there are other groups other than Al-Queda who are a threat to them and can do the same level of damage.

Even if Al-Queda has claimed responsibility, i think they did not do it...unless of course they assisted the ETA.

I think Europeans are WAY WAY WAY ahead of the curve on us for thier awareness of terrorism- they have been dealing with it for far longer- and are way more sensible in thier dealings with it as well- just go through a European airport and you will figure that out LOL-

Al-Qaeda has officially claimed responsibility;

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,113970,00.html

I am not saying the ETA didn't have a hand in this (and should be erradicated alongside Al-Qaeda and similar groups)......

That al-qaeda-ish group apparently has limited credibilty seeing as it also claimed responsibility for the blackout in the US last year.

But they have found a stolen van in a nearby town with an arabic language tape and several detonators.

Hard to say 100% at the moment.

I've heard all sorts of things ranging from the ETA being responsible, to ETA denial of responsibility, to Al-Qaeda being responsible, to someone claiming it on Al-Qaeda's behalf who has made false claims before.

According to the m.o. of the ETA though, it doesn't look like their work. Most say it follows Al-Qaeda's m.o. Aiming for a high causualty number, multiple attacks on multiple targets. 9-11 and the attacks in Turkey not long ago validate that.

If this is the ETA's work, (which I personally doubt) then the Spainish are entering a new era of domestic terrorism.

If this is Al-Qaeda, I wouldn't be susprised. It's about time those in Europe who disagree with the U.S. and our Euro allies realize that the fight will be brought to them. Spain has known this. The UK has known this. Al-Qaeda won't look at France or Germany and say, "well, since you guys have disagree with the US, we won't hurt you". The truth is that they don't care. Spain has been fighting terrorism within it's own borders vigorously and will continue to do so after this heinous attack. We need to assist them in every way. Maybe now, although they would still disagree with us, others in Europe will wisen up to the situation at hand.

I must have gone to bed before any AQ group took responsibility, but I'm not suprised. I was wathcing the news yesterday as it was unfolding and this attack really didn't fir ETA's m.o. ETA, at least for the last 15 years, has been an assasination cell, giving warning beforehand and taking credit immediately after. This attack had no warning, no credit, and this is nothing like an assassination. Even when ETA was mor "terroroist" in the 80's the worst bombing was a single blast in a grocery store in Barcelona. This attack shows more coordination and less care for civillians than ETA is, I think, capable of, especially since spanish police picked up 200 ETA memebers in a giant crackdown last year.

And if they did wait until the US primetime to accept responsibility(what time did they accpept responsibility? I'd bet about 8PM EST - US primetime - best time to get on the news.) - this was AQ, I'm almost sure of it.

You are so right...Spain's 9/11 indeed.

Here is another link to an update about the tragic attack:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/11...asts/index.html

Spanish Interior Minister Angel Acebes was one of Bush/Powell's staunchest supporters at the U.N during the Iraq resolution meetings and she was most admirable in articulating Spain's support for the U. S. Bush paid a three-hour visit (among the tightest security in their history for a visiting President) to show his appreciation to her and the Prime Minister for their steadfast support. And I have no doubt Spain will receive global support and aid from the U. S. and countries around the world.

That is a very easy thing to do. In many European countries you have to ...ack I don't know an English translation..but you have to do a living registry. You must by law register your name where you live who you live with etc. in every and any town you decide to live in. You must also tell them when your leaving, often why and where you are going. Very easy to find who is who and where they are and this is especially true when it comes to foreigners.




I disagree I think it will be different.
Whether you feel it was Eta or not it changes because Eta has never before attacked and murdered civilians in Spain on such a grand scale. Either they got some new training and pointers from their al qaeda franchising kit or they felt a need to make it bloodier and deadlier to innocents because the bar has been raised by international terrorism.
Europe is ahead of America when it comes to Airport security..I lived In Zurich for years but have a look at what incidents they have suffered when it comes to airplane/airport terrorism.
In regards to train travel...there is virtually no means of control or security. A lot less than what you see here in DC on the metro.



Ugh. I don't think it is ever about time anyone should have to realize this.

I dont want to turn this BACK into the age old debate, but you cannt make statements like this and expect them to go unnoticed.

Firstly, it would seem that the war is being brought to those who DID agree with the US and its allies, not to those who did not. Spain was a strong supporter of the US invasion of Iraq. Those in Europe and abroad who disagree with the US and her few allies seem so far quite untargeted.

Secondly, few in the world disagreed with the Us in its targeting of Al Quaida and those who supported it. Almost every nation in the world lined up behind the US after 9/11 to assist it through the crisis, and to assist in the war against Al Quaida and Osama Bin Laden. Where the world disagreed is when the US then went way beyond the war against Terrorism in its attack on Iraq for unsubstantiated reasons, a country which before the US invasion had no ties whatsoever with Al Quaida, but which as a DIRECT RESULT of the US attack on Iraq, now does have al Quaida fighters and funding to anti-US resistance groups inside the country.


Returning to the topic, the United States has no experience with terrorism until recently, it is new and shocking to them. Most countries in Europe have long experience with this type of thing, though of course not to this scale. Spain will survive, they will increase security, as they have so many times before, and co-ordinate with allies to hunt down those responsable, but on a political level I cannot see anything changing, except perhaps a lessening of the will to ally with the US of the average Spanish citizen.

You couldn't be more wrong.
The Oklahoma bombing left 160something dead.
We have had presidents assassinated, our Congress has been shot up, abortion clinics bombed, there was once Mormon guerilla groups who used to attack our Army, the Klu Klux Klan certainly does not operate in cooperation with the US gov, we have experienced a civil war in our somewhat recent history, we have had riots all through our history as a nation, there are current environmental groups who are setting houses on fire in CA among other militant actions. Domestic terrorism has been with the US since the US was a nation. Most of what Europe has experienced has also been domestic terrorism ..that is especially true with Spain.

Firstly, I included the Oklahoma bombing in 'recently', so ignore that for the moment.

Secondly, most of the things you mentioned have nothing to do with terrorism. The assassination of presidents by lone gunmen, civil disobedience and riots, the US civil war, a few minor mormon attack against the US army after the near-rebellion of 1857...

Not all acts of violence in a state can be or should be considered acts of terrorism. Now the bombing of abortion clinics, and the actions of the KKK, those CAN be considered as organised terrorism... which begs the question of course, why spread the on on terrorism while leaving the KKK untouched in the United States?

The very recent eco-terrorism which destroyed a building and a resort to date (though has not claimed any lives) is also a low grade (though escalating) example or terrorism.

None the less, these have been small, generally unpublicised, and insignificant. Until the WTC truck bombings, Oklahoma, and the attacks which have followed, the US has remained in a state of blissful ignorance of the dangers of terrorism, certainly the government and the people have not reacted in such a way to suggest that they considered it a threat at all.

Many countries in Europe have been bleeding from this open sore for decades or even centuries, they have dealt with and continue to deal with it day-to-day. Young people on this board do not see the IRA as any signifiant threat, but 15 or 20 years ago the threat was far more significant, just as the ETA were in Spain and Action Directs in France, and so on. The US clearly suffered one of the worst attacks in history with 9/11, but pointing out a few isolated examples of what could be considered as terrorism in the last 50 years does not compare with the regimen of terror which has existed in Spain or the UK.

perfect example, had this atack only killed 20 people, not the numbr it did, it would probably not even have registered with the international press, which is used to stories of such small scale attacks coming out of some of the countries of Europe. I lived in Spain for 8 months when I was younger (father was on sabbatical) and I learned a bit about the reality of a stae which really has experience with organised terrorism.

Before we get into a USA vs. Europe fight over who's more concerned about terrorism, I think it's safe to assume that for the past decade or so both have been quite concerned, which is largely what matters. The difference is largely that the US felt less vulnerable than some (let's be careful with the generalizations) European countries before 9/11, that has changed...

A recent BBC piece may shed some light on the Spanish and European response.

Europe rethinks war on terror
So there will be changes in strategy, which is only reasonable considering the devastation caused in yesterday's bombing.

I have to say I don't think ETA were behind this at all, apart from the Spanish elections coincidence it just doesn't make sense. Although I don't like to jump to conclusions, I feel that some form of Islamic extremist group is the likely culprit, one that has decided to affiliate itself with the invasion of Iraq. Al-Qaeda is a possibility, more likely than ETA, but as some have already said it could have been anyone.

France is obviously taking it seriously, they have stepped up to red alert. Here in Europe the general feeling is unity and solidarity, and while a lot of people are thinking this could be about Spains support of the Iraq war, I think it will hit the Euro nations who opposed the war just as hard.

The Iraq 'thing' Is really worrying me, though. For the first time since 9/11 I can truly say I fear my own country might physically be attacked. We've had alerts and reports of people being apprehended who were plotting attacks, but I was never totally convinced we would be seriously attacked on mainland Britain.

This is odd, it reminds me of the 'why do they hate us' thread regarding America a while back. The sad thing is, I know exactly why 'they' can hate us, and the justification for hatred is not extreme. I mean, I hate us at times.

I hope Europe and other 'western' nations can co-operate more diplomatically in the future. Despite all the bickering over Iraq, we are still on the same side against the terrorists. Losing sight of that could be a disasterous pitfall

This is (the less confrontational version of) what I was meaning to convey. Robin hit it on the head. We've gone from international solidarity against Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups to bickering over a nation's policies in a matter of 3 years. It's absurd.

But I will say this. The only acts of terror (and one will always arugue that one man's terorist is another man's freedom fighter) that I've seen France deal with is the sepratist movement in Corsica. Although it is rather violent, the French (with the exception of those on the island) to me seem to act as if it isn't a big deal. I wonder if it's because Paris is hundreds of miles away?

Germany has been dealing with their own Tim McVeighs, as right-wing extremists plot racially motivated attacks. Nothing though, on the scale of what happend in Munich in '76.



In a perfect world, perhaps. But I live in a place called reality.

It just appears that some of those who have never agreed with our policies (i.e. France) come off as having an attitude of arrogance and invulnrability against the likes of Al-Qaeda. Maybe I'm just pickin on France, but you'd think that after Algiers and Corsica, they'd act different. Spain has had to deal with their sepratists. And they don't treat the situation as an afterthought.

The rest of Europe should take a page out of the UK and Spain's playbook on fighting terrorism.

I say again, for those hard of reading: France is a staunch ally in the War against Terrorism, France in fact currently has forces in Afganistan helping make and keep the peace.

But France and other nations are not in for the war against Iraq, which has Never been proven to have any links to al Quaida or the war on terror, in fact the Iraq-Al Quaida links have come about almost entirely because of the ill conceived invasion of Iraq by the US.

The world does not see Iraq as "the war on terror", they see it as "the war on Iraq", and the US has been unable to provide any evidence to the contrary. So stop ranting against the lack of European support for the war on Terror when those same nations you insult for not helping have actively deployed troops in Afganistan, and have them there AT THIS MOMENT, to support you.

Perhaps they should pay attention to how quickly the average American forgets and insults their contribution next time they are called upon to contribute in the REAL war on terror.

At the risk of going too off thread, I have to respond to Vermillion.

France does have troops in Afghanistan. They are assisting the peacekeeping effort there. But before you cannonize them, remember that there were Frence made weapons found in Iraq. And not just from the 1980's either.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/10/03/iraq031003

France may be in Afghanistan, but the fact that some of their weapons were in use in this most recent war, questions their integrity. Somehow, I don't see Spain doing that if they opposed our war.

Germany and France have been very very pro-active for some time against terrorism as far as Al-quaida- they are just correct about Iraq, and they are correct that it has actually caused a nice place for Al-Quaida to operate- they are now in Iraq, a nice place for a terrorist to live right now!

I really don't think they have to "rethink" anything in regards to the war on terrorism, they were always on the right track there, they were always more secure in their airports, since way back when the PLO started taking jets and stuff.

France and Germany have been very active in busting and prosecuting Al-quaida cells, many of them prior to our 9/11.

I'd take issue with that

Abu Mus’ab al-Zarqawi Letter.





I'd say the terrorists, while active, aren't exactly living high on the hog right now. As long as we can avoid civil war, we are winning, as far as I'm concerned.

Let us try to forgo the Us vs Them mentality that some Europeans and Americans try to drum up on almost every subject. According to Collin Powell, 6,000 people with suspected terrorist connections have been arrested in Europe since the 9/11 massacres. I believe that shows a level of comitment that should be sufficient for everyone.

Someone made what I consider the most valid comment on the subject when he/she posted that the difference between the United States and Europe prior to 9/11 was that Americans felt secure from attack. Our individual feelings about terrorists were, at that time, still in the "Out of sight, Out of mind" stage. 9/11 changed that for Americans.

As to who caused this dreadful massacre of innocents in Spain, I have to put al-Qaeda at the top of the list. My reasoning is that ETA has always, in the past, notified authorities just prior to making a terrorist attack. They do this so the Spanish people always knew who was attacking them and why. This is essence of terrorism. There was no ETA notification before this attack.

On the other hand, ObL has made a habit of announcing al-Qaeda attacks in the weeks or months leading up to an attack. It was just a couple of months (more or less) ago that an ObL tape was released condemning the Spanish and warning of an attack.

So, based on that little evidence, the style of attack (which is more al-Qaeda then ETA). the Type of explosive and detonating devices used, and finally the finding of the van with bomb and Arabic tape, lead me to believe that al-Qaeda or more exactly a terrorist cell connected to al-Qeada cause this barbaric act of terrorism.

1SG

As others here have said, neither the Spanish, Aussie or British population supported the war against iraq, it was only their governments that supported it. If you want to have a realistic discussion of anti-terror measures and who supports them you have to acknowledge that the overwhelming majority of the world doesnt see the iraq war as an anti-terror war. Really, the populations of our "allies" in the iraq war agree with the people of France, Russia and Germany.

I understand there is a strong need among americans to say they are the 'best, most honorable, most experienced, etc' at just about everything but I believe that the europeans have a lot more experience with terrorism than we do.

santasdad

"As others here have said, neither the Spanish, Aussie or British population supported the war against iraq, it was only their governments that supported it."

Other then making the statement, what is the point of bringing up Iraq in connection with this terrorist act??? Are you saying it is the Spainish Government's fault for backing the United States and Britain in Iraq that caused this??? A more justified claim would be the Spanish Government's crackdown on International Terrorist activities. Spain is one of if not the toughest nation in the WOT in Europe. I would think al-Qaeda would like to punish Spain for that over Iraq.

"Really, the populations of our "allies" in the iraq war agree with the people of France, Russia and Germany."

As the populations of Europe are so easily led by their leftist new media, it is a good thing their leaders pay little attention to them.

1SG


Edited to make text black per the Rules - Jaime

Interesting. The UK in particular has treated terrorism somewhat differently from, well, almost anywhere else, including Spain and the USA.

I'm talking about the Irish peace process, which has only been made possible by the willingness of successive British governments to engage in serious talks with their terrorist "enemies", even during active terror campaigns.

Though it is in no way completed, and there is still the possibility of collapse back into unrestrained violence, the Northern Irish peace process is about the only even partially successful peace process to resolve a terrorism problem in modern times.

In this context, I'd say that the biggest learning curve on how to deal successfully with terrorism is not in Europe, but in America - ironic since the US played such a critical role in giving the Irish process credibility (but then, that was Clinton, not Bush). Punishment and containment are not the same thing as resolution, and as yet the current administration seems not to have understood that one must prepare for one before the others are complete.

GDAN, I was responding to the sentiment expressed in this thread that europe was somehow not as interested in responding to terrorism. I made the assumption that this was because of the current anti_old_europe views that came about after europe largely failed to back us in the new iraq war.

My point was simply that the iraq war shouldnt be a litmus test for estimating how europe will respond to terrorism seeing as most europeans dont see a link between the 'war on terror' and the iraq war.

I think if you scroll up youll see others making the exact same point.

Well, according to El Mundo;

Five have been arrested.

Three were Morrocans.

Two were Indians.

They were traced from evidence found in both the van and with the unexploded bombs.

Um, the startling fact is that Europe has been subject to terrorism for generations, as some here have made pretty clear. As of September 11, 2001, the US finally became a little bit more like them.

I don't expect this will have a serious long-term impact at all. Europe will continue doing what it has done for decades: seek political and diplomatic solutions wherever possible, foster international cooperation, maintain security where it is most needed, and explore all possible alternatives to military action first. Europeans realize that there is no permanent solution to terrorism and that as long as there is inequality, poverty, injustice, and countries or factions exerting their will over a minority, there will be terror. They will continue to seek solutions to the problems, not the symptoms. As Julian has mentioned, ever since the intolerant and hawkish Margaret Thatcher has been out of power, this appears to be working for the UK.

I seriously doubt that this is going to move any European nations toward initiating illegal wars of aggression against countries which were unrelated to this attack. If, indeed, al-Qaeda is responsible, it may lead some to more seriously question the wisdom of the recent American tactic of ignoring international law and reaching for a gun without thinking.

Hopefully, Spain will not squander the good will of the rest of the world as the Bush administration did. They - like we - deserve the full support of the international community, so long as their actions (unlike ours) address those responsible.

Much as it may pain me to admit it - intolerant and hawkish are two of the nicest words I can think of regarding Thatcher - it was in fact ministers in her government that were the first to carry out the clandestine talks with the then IRA leadership, which made later progress in towards peace possible. Though of course the public rheotirc was all geared towards lady's not being for turning, and so on.

The further away she gets in history, the more it seems that the few lastingly good things she oversaw during her "reign" happened where she was prepared to compromise or reconsider, or where she was sceptical or even openly hostile.

In this it seem she was more "European" than she would ever admit, or even realise. Certainly compared to the current patronising view held by some in the US that international terrorism has only become a problem since domestic US interests have been successfully targeted by it.

Hello there,

It's been a long while since my last post. Extensive work hours and a recent move to another part of France are the explanation!

I have two opinions about the current situation in Spain.

First, I was favorably impressed - and touched - by the demonstration of friendship from European representatives whether they are from national governments or the EU itself.

Second, Europe has had an extensive experience of terrorism for the last 20 years. I believe that all European countries are aware of the danger and capable to trace it through intelligence. Most of them can track terrorists and arrest them. However, it's impossible to keep track of the whereabouts of hundreds of millions of civilians.

Therefore, I don't think that terrorism can be 'ultimately' banned from European soil, only contained at the best.

Anything can happen, we know it, and we've learnt to live with it.

Oh, oh...I actually agree with portions of Wertz's and Vermillion's posts!






And, Aquilla's thoughts which I am usually in total agreement with:



Leaders are obligated to do what is in the best interest and security of their country and its people. The people (Spaniards are no exception) are not always going to understand or agree with their leader's decisions. Misdirected opposition shouldn't influence a leader to inaction that could, in the long term, bring about consequences more horrendous than a decision to take action.

Regardless of what group is responsible, it is an act of terror and it cannot be ignored.

Desert Resident

Very true. We elect these people to lead us not to waffle or pander to the crowd.

1SG

Well, now it looks like the attack has convinced Spain's new Giovernment to pull its peacekeepers out of Iraq.

Oddly enough, I am not in favour of this. Anyone who has heard me rant knows my views on the US led war on terror: I entirely support and applaud the war on terror, but not at all the war on Iraq, which despite an assortment of obfuscation and lies, has nothing to do with the 'War on Terror'. It seems clear now that the war in Iraq has been the direct cause of an increase in terrorism, as Al Quaida now exists in Iraq where it was not there prior to the US invasion. The argument that we are somehow safer now that Hussein is out of power is silly.

None the less, though I condemn the US for getting the nations of the world into this situation, the reality is we ARE in the situation now, and while I agree Spain should never have backed the US in the first place, they DID back the US. Given that, it would be very dangerous for Spain to pull its forces out of Iraq now, as the precident set (and obvious message to Al Quaida) is that they can win through setting off bombs. Now other US allies will be targeted, the intent being to make them pull out as well...

Vermillion

That the Spanish people have been herded like sheep before wolves cannot be denied. In this the terrorists have probably succeeded in their objective of changing the Spanish government. However, I do not believe said change will effect Spain's participation in the WOT, which is most likely the terrorists' real goal . To me it is clear that al-Qaeda's blaming Spain's participation in the Iraq War as part of the reason for the attack, shows the terrorists feel Iraq is part of the WOT even if others do not.

1SG

I have to completely disagree again. I am also beginning to find this argument...silly.

I lived in London as a child in the 1970s at the height of the IRA bombing scares. Right in Central downtown London. I don't remember my life being altered or in any form so much more dramatically different than how it was here in America. There really isn't some big huge difference. Every country has in some way or another dealt with some form of domestic terrorism. This assertion that a country has not had to suffer from terrorism, or been subjected to it is the same as saying that country has not been subjected to violence and conflict and to assert this as truth about America is completely false.

America has been subjected to domestic terrorism for generations too..I pointed this out and no one wants to admit it is true. Why is that? The simple fact is most Americans don't care. We some how find the Mc Veighs, the Unabombers, neo nazis, the Puerto Rican nationalists and the Tyler Texas terrorists of no interest and certainly of no meaningful threat.

When it comes to Global Terrorism...yes the US and Europe have always been allies. Some of you may have forgotten this but I have not. It was the US military who attacked Libya in response to her attacks in Europe.

I just don't understand this constant insistence from people that terrorism is some kind of human act that apparently has only been a condition of , dealt with and effected the psyche of only a certain race or nationality of people. It is a sad and pathetic human condition and humans live all over the world.

This same ideology occurred after 9/11. It is cruel imo to belittle people's suffering. I feel what happened in Spain is a very significant event and is much much different from the terrorism they have suffered from prior to it. This is not the same old same old.
I believe it will effect them differently and will shape their nation's psyche in a much different manner. Eta, much like the homegrown terrorist we have seen in the US, is just that.... homegrown, there is a familiarity involved, a knowledge and in some ways an understanding of their madness. These more recent terrorists attack lack any of these comforts, for lack of a better word..and I think that greatly heightens the fear.

From the alleged video tape that Spanish authorities claim to have the attacks on Spain were a result of their support of the US in not only Iraq but Afghanistan. I have nooooooo idea why anyone would want to classify their own rationality for what is fair and just in this world with these maniacs, yet Iraq is not their only focus and contention with the Western world.

From another angle to see the terror attack.

Have you ever considered US or Israel intelligence might be behind it? I allege so based on following reason.

1. The known attack from Al Quada all targetted at US. Bombing US embassy in Afirica; the bombing of US Cole; 911 attack were point to US government, military and Jewish financial interest.(WTC is viewed as a financial center where there was a lot of Jewish financial institution). But this time is totally point to a foreign country and its civilians.

2. Al Quada is said heavily hit by Bush's anti-terror war. Bin Laden is said to be in trap of US military. How can it activate such a big attack?

3. The time is sensible. It took place just days before the Spainish election. The purpose is more likely to influence the election. It is a tactic used to use by government. Such like this election year, they let out the information that Bin Laden will be arrested. To support Bush and his war policy, to maintain an international ally is important for him. In US, such an terror attack would generally boost the public's enthusiasm to support the government. It's no surprise if they use it in Spain. Only this time it doesn't work. Because Iraq war is real unpopular.

4. US government has a history to plan to attack its own people to provoke a war. The plan of Northwoods is evidence. And there was anthrax attack and DC sniper shooting which I also viewed as attack to push for war.
It doesn't make sense for Al Quada to increas the hostility against them from people in Europe at this time. If they can do it now, why not do it at the time when US invaded Afghan and Iraq? Even people of Spain didn't suspect Al Quada at first but the Basque group of their own country.

It is more like a tactic to help the election of Bush's ally Aznar in Spain to strenthen Bush's war policy in a election year.

I would like to say it's not terrorists win in Spain, it's Bush's war policy fails in Spain.

For reason why I say US intelligence is behind the terrorist attack, see messages 191 to 199, 204, 205 at:

http://hometown.aol.com/katsung563/myhomepage/profile.html

If there is harassment (blank page, slow entering, server busy....) try

http://forums.delphiforums.com/police915/messages/?msg=25.1

Its silly to blame spaniards who had previously wanted to vote for the socialists for being appeasers. If this was their decision pre-train_bombing then I dont see a problem with it. Why should terrorist attacks make them change their values? Only a handful of swing voters were required to tip the balance.


If terrorists hit us several days before the election you honestly believe that democrats who oppose Bush should suddenly vote for him? Too funny.

Why would anyone think European reaction would be any different today than it was yesterday, or will be tomorrow? Truth in fact, Europe has lived with terrorism (domestic and international) a lot longer than has the U.S.

But what I really want to do is touch on something everyone is apparently missing.

The Spanish voters booted Anzar and his lap puppies because he was a lying dog in the minutes and days after the train bombings. Election results in Spain are no more than that - a repudiation of the government's dishonesty in the face of tragedy. Had Anzar not chosen to immediately pin the blame on ETA, but allowed the evidence to play itself out, he'd probably still be running the show.

I don't believe the scales were tipped in the Socialist's direction for any other reason. People in any nation on the face of the planet are nationalistic and proud. To say that "Spain capitulated" is specious on its face.

Occam's Chainsaw: Xray glasses don't work when the naked truth is right in front of your face.

santasdad - ]"Its silly to blame spaniards who had previously wanted to vote for the socialists for being appeasers. If this was their decision pre-train_bombing then I dont see a problem with it. Why should terrorist attacks make them change their values? Only a handful of swing voters were required to tip the balance."

Except all the polls showed the Spanish were going to vote against the Socialists and keep in the party that had given Spain 8 years of prosperity. Something the Socialist have never been able to do. So it does appear the bombing did affect the outcome of the elections.

I have seen anti-American posts on a lot of boards in the past two years. One theme that runs over and over is "Americans don't know what the rest of the world thinks of America, etc. Now after watching the news and listening to New England talk radio for the past two days, I have to wonder if the people of Spain know what America is saying and thinking about them?

Maybe if Europe comes to understand how the Americans feel about the apparent reason for the Spanish vote they will not allow themselves to be stampeded into appeasement.

1SG

from my understanding, britain provided many more soldiers. why have they not been attacked?


btw, i just saw on russian news that several pakistanis and a ukrainian were arrested in a train station for terrorist activity. poland sent 2,000 soldiers to iraq.

btw, i just saw on russian news that several pakistanis and a ukrainian were arrested in a train station for terrorist activity. poland sent 2,000 soldiers to iraq.

pyotrveliky Posted on Mar 22 2004, 11:22 PM

"from my understanding, britain provided many more soldiers. why have they not been attacked? "

pyotrveliky Posted on Mar 23 2004, 12:40 AM

"btw, i just saw on russian news that several pakistanis and a ukrainian were arrested in a train station for terrorist activity. poland sent 2,000 soldiers to iraq."

I think the answer to your question is twofold. First as to Poland. it is much more difficult for an Arab member of al-Qaeda to infiltrate in a nation like Poland where they will standout like a sore thumb. The Mid Eastern population of Poland is nowheres near as large Western European nations.

Second as to Britain. Although there is a sizable population of Mid Easterners in London, Great Britian was not having an election to possibly affect. An then there is the "Brit" attitude.

Spain, with a large Muslim population, an electorate that is mostly socialist and 90% opposed to the Iraq war and having an up coming election that may be fairly close, was an obvious choice.

1SG

pyotrveliky



They have. The attacks were foiled by the security and intelligences services though. The attack in Spain is said to be the fifth al qaeda attack in Europe thus far.

The only difference is that this is the first one that succeeded.

Over the last couple of moths Britain has been enlarging MI5 (our equivalent of homeland security) by a rather large amount, to help combate terrorism.

I did read somewhere that it is harder to initiate a terrorist attack in London because the city itself is extremely racially mixed...unlike the ghetto effect seen in any large cities, where Chinese keep to one area, Indians to another etc, everywhere in London is very mixed. It becomes difficult to then leave bombs without risking killing a lot of muslims and so losing any local support a terrorist might have.

Of course this assumes that the terrorist cares about not hurting Muslims.

Aargh, I hate living in London! I want to move back to Scotland and not have to worry that my tube home isn't going to get blown up!

Andrew Sullivan, once again, lays out a very astute analysis of the WOT. He truly understands the meaning of 'surrender' and how it will bring the world to its knees if allowed to continue.



Andrew Sullivan

Though authority quickly said they found clues and Morocan suspects linked to Al Quada, it could be a manipulated case. In events of Islamic rebellion in Philippines and Monbasa terror attack, the hand behind terrorist were intelligence of US and Israel. (see #193 - 196, 199, 204) You know how easy it is to frame a terror attack if you know the story of smuggle of shoulder-fired missile. (# 205)

bombing used to flame the "partiot" feeling and "revenge" sentiment, just like what happen in 911 attack, Bush got "Patriot Act" passed and high approve rate. Aznar might get help on this bombing, otherwise he would have a even worse failure.

People are always the loser of a war in which they lose their lives and treasure. Only a little group of celebrities benefit from it. Either for more police power or business interest. That's why people all over the world are anti-war, include US'. The event in Spain proves that democracy system in Spain still works. It's a sorrow that US is becoming a covert totalitarian country. Where intelligence control media and election, manipulate sentiment of public. They create incidents to justify a war.


For reason why I say US intelligence is behind the terrorist attack, see messages 191 to 199, 204, 205 at:

http://hometown.aol.com/katsung563/myhomepage/profile.html

If there is harassment (blank page, slow entering, server busy....) try

http://forums.delphiforums.com/police915/messages/?msg=25.1