On many other threads, I keep seeing the line "Iraq is a better place today" because of our invasion and occupation.

So, my question to debate is pretty simple:
Is Iraq a better place today?

I believe the answer is "no".

We have daily execution of our Americans over there, roadside bombs, they're blowing up of hotels, there are more fighters pouring into the country to help kill Americans, and dissention among the factions wanting control of Iraq.

When Bush said "bring it on", they brought it on. When Bush took their country away from the Iraqis by making it the central front on terror (as if Iraq had anything to do with international terror), I'm sure the Iraqi people appreciated him volunteering their cities as a war zone.

In fact (and probably a topic for another thread), if Bush said "we'll be in the fields of northern Uzbekistan on March 20, so anybody that hates Americans, bring it on", I wonder if we'd see any less bombings, killings, and chaos.

In any case, is Iraq better off now than it was before we invaded and occupied it?

Yes, it is a better place. They have a chance, finally, to create a better way of life for themselves. Just a chance, but at least they have one now.

HOWEVER, the USA is definitely NOT any better off. The bombings are directed at us, mostly. The terrorists are there to engage us. Not the Iraqis so much. So I think we stepped into a minefield of our own making.

The truth of the matter is the citizens of Iraq finally have a voice in government. They are no longer subjected to constant fear. They can say and do what they want, and that gives hope to the establishment of a healthy democracy. An interim constitution has been signed, and the future of Iraq is promising. It is terrible under any circumstance to have the brave men and women of America dying in the name of their country. However, if liberating Iraq had any effect on neutralizing terrorists cells, then the people who died in Iraq is far less than the casualties America would have incurred from a repeat attack similar to September Eleventh. This is a stretch, but it is a possibility.

So why is al-queda attacking hotels that house arabs? That one on Wednesday i think it was hit a hotel that housed mostly Iraqis and other arabs? The only time they are bombing at us is either with IED's or firing mortars at the Green Zone

Yes, to heck with that Wilsonian/Carter human rights agenda. When we make war it should further our national interests. The jury is still out on that. So far it has not. If Iraq becomes a stabilizing force in the Middle East it may be all worthwhile.

I don't know. Like you, I'm not there, and my opinions are subject to the whims of government and media propaganda (pro and con) just like yours. If I were a betting man (scratch that, I am), I'd say that on the whole things are worse now than before.

Here's a link to one reporter's view that might be of interest to you.

Here's another link to an ongoing journal of someone who's living the "adventure".

Things will get better in Iraq, eventually. It's the natural order of things. The question really becomes, at this point is our continued presence in Iraq helping or hindering? Like the despot who preceded the current occupation authority, I feel we're merely keeping the lid on a powderkeg that will eventually blow anyway.

Occam's Chainsaw: controlled detonations still result in things blowing up.

The best people to ask are Iraqis themselves.

The question is too tough for me to answer.

The democratic process is slowly coming to life. In the great scheme of the world events, I don't know if it will mean a big change though.

After 40 years of Saddam, Iraqis are being given a choice : democratic illusions or religious fundamentalism... Ironic.

I just read a very good article about this today.

Pros: Basic infrastructure including water and health care is better. Some things are much better. The health care budget is about 60 times larger than it was under Saddam. Personal freedom is obviously better.

Cons: The security situation is worse. Iraqis are being targetted by terrorist attacks and there is increased crime.

I think Bela's link answers the question. The vast majority of Iraqis feel they are better off today than last year under Saddam, and are optimistic about the future. They also must be pretty happy to not be staring down another 40 years of rule by Uday and Queasy, who made their daddy look like a cuddly teddy bear. According to that article, 54 percent say security where they live is better now than it was before the war. Overall, it seems like an improvement....but where it is bad, it is very bad.

Edited to add: I just looked at Safron's link. Interesting, unemployment is actually lower than under Saddam (45 percent today, over 50 under Saddam..the chart only shows it back to the takeover in April). That's surprisingly good news too I'd say.

Just think, no one worried about murder in Nazi Germany either...as long as you were a Nazi.

The security situation of non-Baathists (the majority of Iraqis) is indeed better, although the media coverage would lead you to believe otherwise.

There was no media to cover Saddam's "justice".

The answer is no. We have a created a mess in Iraq by invading this country for false reasons(WMD). The Iraqi people understand this deception and because of it, the insurgents are determined to cause havoc and terror every single day we continue to occupy this country and maybe after we leave. This does not mean that the majority of the Iraqi people aren't happy that Saddam is gone. But I believe they understand the end does not justify the means in case of going to war.

With this puppet government we are installing in Iraq (which is why the insurgents continue to attack American soldiers everyday), the violence will not end. We are dealing with an area (the middle east) in the world that has seen nothing but destruction and war. We have a long way to go before Iraq (if it evers) becomes a democracy.

Exactly. The media coverage stinks when it comes to the progress in Iraq. Always bad news. If it isn't bad news, it doesn't get reported. You have to check out the briefings the coalition commanders give or might have to do hard searching on the web.


Here's something CNN probably won't tell you: Article



The article didn't mention that oil production is also back to pre-war levels (but are hindered by the occasional sabotage attacks.

So the only problems are mild crime and terrorists

To me Iraq is not a better place.

the people of Iraq are not of one culture, or should i say you have multiple factions in iraq as you would find in America. with the latest vacuum for control in the chaos following saddams fall or the fall of the batth party, i wonder who will get the say in the new "democracy". A democracy that is not picked by this collective making a constitution not voted on by this collective. This also picks up into the reasons for Iraq being included on the war on terror, without solid links to back up or prove why we started the war, along with nations such as Iran holding actual nuke material along with a case of terror that could be made against it as with many other middle eastern nations, i find that the factions of people in Iraq could see the war there as political rather then to just combat terror, this to could have a rather negative psychological effect at large. To add to this we have a leader in this country that has a cabinet filled with mostly militant economic type thinkers and energy barons, this then collides with other nations wanting to lift the ban on Iraq to deal with their oil, an important resource that saddam was using to gain political sway with various nations.

with so called freedom in Iraq coming to bear, with such things as a free press, i find it hard to think how such info and related could lead to harm in any reform in that part of the world. to use 9-11 we find that the terrorists hail from no specific region or nation in the middle east, and more or less are a product of a specific culture at large. To target just Iraq when the same case as far as terror could be applied to most any nation in that region along with the truth of a real nuke program and many other variables i will not list along with it again leads me to believe that blowback again may occur as america discovered with the taliban.
This is unless real progress can be made in Iraq, which leads me to the main point as life is not much better there then when saddam was in control. You still have harsh standards of living, as in poor conditions, you still have groups trying to gain control of each other, and it is still a very violent place that as of now the u.s or coalition forces have not found a way to control or eliminate. Some of the worst part is the coalitions inability to correctly gauge even what or whom the enemy is.

The only gains made in Iraq such as with the capture of saddam are the product of the various people in iraq, that does not say openly that the love or accept the coalition or western ideas, it could just be revenge by someone whom hated him.
The part about it that if the people whom are fragmented do not accept this war then it is pointless because having bases in iraq will not end terror, not will calling it a democracy when only certain groups get the power as was the case with saddam under the un resolutions.

I generally feel the lack of intelligence, and not as in military terms, but as with dealing with humans such as the ones in Iraq is the overlooked key to a better world that is being looked over. What i fear is just having another Palestine in the world. The terror that we are looking to end is a manifestation in that specific culture by people whom know what they are doing, much like Hitler’s ability with the German people. If the reasons that such is able to occur not combated, then democracy in Iraq if successful in itself will not mean much.

'In Baghdad, a few days before the Shock and Awe war began, a woman whom I've known for seven years whispered "Believe me, Kathy, we want this war. All the people, they are tired of this life where we work so hard and still cannot feed our children." A March 9, 2004 letter from her explains how betrayed and battered she now feels. "Today, we faced a horrible day. My partner, the engineer, was attacked by shooting. He was wounded by three shots and is in the hospital. We are not sure if he will live. This is Iraq today. This is what we pay for Mr. Bush and his freedom. We can't move from place to place without shooting and bombing. We are like hostages in our own land. There is no safety, no jobs, no good water, no electricity. Everything is bad here. We are hopeless. We can't protect our children."
http://antiwar.com/orig/kelly.php?articleid=2162

Iraqi hospitals on life support
Babies die because of shortages of medicine, supplies
Partials:
The health-care system has been hit by a critical shortage in basic medications and equipment. Babies die of simple infections because they can't get the proper antibiotics. Surgeries are delayed because there is no oxygen. And patients in critical condition are turned away because there isn't enough equipment.

"We are dealing with a crisis," said Abdulwadood Talibi, director general of the State Company for Drugs and Medical Supplies,

The shortages have angered many in the medical community. "The most important thing for Americans is their interest: the Ministry of Oil. That is where all the money is going. They don't give medical supplies or oxygen any thought," said Bahaa Abdul Munem, who until recently was chief resident at Iskan children's hospital but transferred to Yarmouk.

On the third floor of the children's hospital, Habeeba Kadhim, a nurse who works in the infectious diseases ward, said at one point there was only penicillin to treat patients with diarrhea, and it didn't work, so babies got progressively sicker and died.

There also has been an oxygen shortage. The two plants in Iraq that produce the gas and liquid have not been keeping pace with demand. Twice, in November and in December, the children's hospital ran out of oxygen for about 10 hours. The babies in the neonatal ward went into cardiac arrest, said Munem, and some died as doctors and nurses scrambled to bundle them up and transport them to a nearby hospital.

Iraq's hospitals were once the envy of the Middle East. Wealthy businessmen used to fly their relatives in for everything from heart transplants to plastic surgery, and Iraqi specialists traveled the world lecturing about their research.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4452281
--------------------------
“Big contracts are available –– it’s just that we’re not getting them. Some big tenders are awarded that we do not hear about. We just fill in a lot of forms then sit and wait.”

One of the most common accusations levelled against the US-led occupation is that it was simply paving the way for a subsequent corporate invasion. Monolithic US companies with strong ties to the administration of US President George Bush have been handed huge contracts to repair the damage wrought by war. But despite assurances that the underlying motivation for this work is the revival of the Iraqi economy, people are starting to doubt how much is for the sake of Iraqis and how much is for the international companies to make a fast buck.

......the sizes of these contracts which are leading Iraqi businessmen to the conclusion that they are getting a raw deal. The USAID website lists a string of multi-million dollar contract awards which have been given to US companies: $4.8 million to Stevedoring Services of America for “assessment and management activities” at the port of Umm Qasr, $9 million to BearingPoint, Inc. to “support integrated and sustainable economic reform in Iraq” (which includes creating a competitive private sector), $10 million to Abt Associates to help restructure the health system. The biggest contract the businessmen at the KBR meeting had heard of was for building a new gas station.
Canavan’s explanation is that in the immediate aftermath of conflict, the contracts which have been granted constitute a period where emergency measures are necessary.
Yet, more than 4 months since the Bush declared the end of hostilities, Iraqi companies are still finding it difficult to impose themselves on the market for carrying out the reconstruction work of their own country.

“For example, some of the tenders stipulate that you have to have certain brands for the objects that are contained within your project,” said another businessman at the KBR meeting. “This makes it impossible for us to make a successful bid since we cannot get hold of these materials.”
http://www.baghdadbulletin.com/pageArticle...id=162&cat_id=1
-----------------------
From Riverbend I've learnt a while ago about the present Iraqi goverment resolution to change the secular Family Law to the strict religious one. I'm wondering what is the response of the USA women - are you flooding the mail boxes and phones and faxes of your goverment, are you running any rally in support?

Iraqi women are fighting for equality.
Where are the promises of democracy? Buried that fast...

Here is an excerpt from a new diary, with an unforgetable report, by Yanar, straight from Iraq:

"...I was in the front porch heading for the main door when two men smoking their after-lunch cigarettes started waving their hands pointing to the side door saying 'Awa'el enna' which means 'families this way'. My head heavy with sleepiness, I decided to ignore them and to step into the mainstream society door... and anyway I looked so dull I thought that nobody will pay any attention.

The moment I stepped inside, almost five men around me informed me of the same issue... 'Awa'el... Awa'el... and they pointed at the side door. Now, I became impatient and decided to defy their being mentally retarded and just sit down and order food the way I did 3 months ago.

It seems I misjudged the situation that exploded all around me. All the men in the room started shouting like one big choir in total agreement Awa'el...Awa'el... I turned left and right to the big outraged audience... looked for one single opposition. None was there.

I went, totally humiliated and outnumbered into Awa'el... and began wondering. Being a woman at this point in time and place... who are my first and most dangerous enemies... Is it the disperse American tanks outside on the highway that need Iraqi army to protect them on the road to Tikrit and Smara that has turned into a sries of pitfalls (every pit of which means an exploding mine and a few American lives), or are my real enemies the ones sitting inside the restaurant that suffered euphoria and panic because of a veilless woman stepping into their no-woman zone.

I had a feeling that the enemy outside hiding inside the tanks and flying the helicopters left and right of the highway would be leaving us someday... imply in order to run for their lives (same as they did in Vietnam). Then again, the enemies that want me to disappear from their eyesight, whether by hiding in the Awa'el, under the veil, in my house or behind any man... these will be staying around... and for a long time."

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2004/02/01/170112.php

I could write research for 24 hours. Iraq is under a different dictator.. A self interested, corporate profit seeking structure, american democracy at its best, ignorant of their culture and there-by indifferent to their needs. This is exactly what was expected, noone can say anything contrary since thats how 'we' live right here, and deem ourselves worthy of exporting that doctrine.
Millions HAVE been dedicated to Iraq, the question is where and in the interest of whom?
No more torture, but the mass murder and death part is still daily life, just ... somehow..different, because, well its just better. Heck, we took the war TO the Terrorists, we can fght them there, so (illogically) we could avoid it here! I ask, is that better for Iraqis who had no responsability for the terrorism committed against the US? In my sadness I HAVE TO ASK, WHY THEM? Wasnt Afghanistan ENOUGH? Werent the sanctions enough suffering already?

Well, I guess they should eat their wheaties and get with the program of corporate and government shakedowns and a good dose of American corruption right off. Anyone can get used to it given time! Soon we shall clean up our bloody mess and make sure that Iraqis are safe and secure in the knowledge that american corporations and american supporting government puppets will take care of them for ever and ever in our Christian/Zionist interests, Amen! ( by the way, Ive got some really valuable swampland in Florida for sale to any and all takers who are prone to believe Iraq is going to settle down under our occupation and come to embrace freedom and democracy American style which is questionable even to me).

So, what was it like before, Artemise? I'm curious what the 300,000 dead mangled bodies would tell us if they could talk. If healthcare is so very bad today (according to antiWar.com), with a budget 60 times larger than before, I think I could hazard a good guess. Not many (if anyone) is saying the place is peachy-riffick now, the question is,"Is it BETTER?", and unbiased, reputable sites seem to indicate (in broad population polls) that it is. Is it better for US? At the moment, no. The future remains to be seen.

Here's testimony from a CNN news executive which is actually verified to be true, from the way it was before:




This sounds a bit worse than having to use the side door at a restaurant:

Is Iraq a better place?

Yes.

The security situation in MOST of Iraq is better.

The Infrastructure is significantly improved and continues to improve daily.

Foreign trade has resumed, Even before the sanctions Saddam severely restricted trade to control the population of Iraq, especially northern Iraq. Now that free trade exists many border crossings are traffic jams of Iraqis bringing goods to Syria and other nations.

The people are on their way to freedom and self determination. That is obviously a good thing.

Health care in most of Iraq is vastly improved.

Now another question was asked. Why are terrorists attacking Iraqis? The answer is that they are attempting shift Iraqi public opinion against the Americans.

When they were attacking the new Iraqi police force it was an attempt to scare Iraqis away from getting involved in it.

If you've been there and had the pleasure to talk to Iraqi citizens about this you would likely be amazed at how happy their are with finally having a future, freedom and hope.

Is is a long way to go. But everyday another road is repaired, another town get electricity for the first time, and anoter Iraqi opens a business of some sort.

Yes Iraq is better off then it was, but it's real opportunites will come when they learn to protect and govern themselves.

So you've been to Iraq, OverlandSailor? That's interesting to have the opinion of someone who's seen it for real : it puts things in a sensible perspective.

The health care quote was MSNBC, originally Washington Post. Please try not to be purposely misleading.



Unbiased being CBS, CNN and Fox? Broad polls of who? Source please.
( have you ever been to antiwar.com?) Its a news compilation site, might be worth a look, in compared to the normal brainwash. Besides that, the sighted article only in my first paragraph was written by journalist Kathy Kelly, who spent time in Iraq without being part of the mainstream media, and not given the official version of what to report, and she will go to jail for non-violent imposition.
Thats so narrow minded Mrs P. As if the mainstream news would tell all of the truth, come on, even you know better.

Taking the side door at a restaurant has many more implications than you would like to admit, maybe you havent visited Islamic countries? I think you have. Its not a side door, by the way, its the door to burkhas. Its a resolution now in Iraq, which means women are to be separated from society, thereby not being allowed to participate in 'our' new democracy.
This was not the case in Iraq previously.

What good is a pretend democracy? Because there is no more torture, but the bombings , guerrilla wars, supression of women , lack of health care , electricity and good water? Wait, isnt it a year since Bush declared an end to the war?
Better? How many americans are killed weekly? How many in a year/ nighttimer keeps track.
The iraq death tolls are in the tens of thousands.

I still ask,WHY? Its a simple question. Why did they deserve this, all of what has been posted and all that is to come?
Better is certainly a subjective term depending if you are the bomber or the bombee.

Abso-frikkin-lutely.

I've been here a year now (or will have soon) and I'll tell you this - things are comparatively the worst in Baghdad, since we are in the sunni triangle, and this used to be the jewel of Iraq (i.e. people from Baghdad had it best) - and we're STILL better than we were a year ago, and most people I talk to say that they are better off. Of course there are horror stories - it's still a war. But to take those horror stories and twist them to paint the big picture is wrong, and it makes me sick to watch the US press consistently do it (of course, Fox News sickens me as well, for other reasons).

Does the US press show schools opening, sewers coming on line, electricity returning, the hundreds of things that US soldiers do every day to make people's lives better? Nope - it's death, destruction, get-the-widow-on-the-set dirty laundry. They stick to Baghdad because it's where the bombs are going off when the other four major cities here are ignored because there isn't enough blood being spilled there.

I spend most of my day with two windows open - one is the reports screen from the units out in sector, and the other is either CNN, MSNBC or Fox News. The difference is startling. Suddenly, while attacks have been pretty steady over the last few months, they are all over the news when we started making progress diplomatically. Yes, a few car bombs, but suddenly every rocket attack in Baghdad is newsworthy when there are fewer now than there were two months ago, when you never heard about them.

Yes, there are bad things happening. I could tell horror stories that no news agency would touch even if they heard about them, they are so sick. But this is a country of MILLIONS, and the handful of such stories is not the norm for people here. Imagine if I judged the US by what I see on the news - I'd say the US is nothing but corrupt CEO's and serial killers.

I sincerely appreciate your service to our country and serving so valiantly in a place so dangerous.

But no offense - all those things existed and were working before we invaded and occupied their country. We are fixing the stuff we destroyed.

Aside from restoring the damage we created, I would be highly interested to know about issues that have changed before the bombs began dropping and how they got better.

Pretend Democracy? How long did it take America to form it's government? Democracy does not just spring out of the ground over night. It takes diplomacy, compromise and negotiation. A democracy is FORMING in Iraq.

Lack of health care? There are more hospitals online now, with more access to medicines then there were for years before the war. Lack of electricity and good water? The infrastructure in Iraq was in a shambles even before the war. It is being repaired and improved every day. There are towns outside of the major citys that now have electricity for the first time EVER. TO deny this is to completely ignore all the good work of the SeaBees and all the other servicemen and women breaking their backs on these projects.



Actually, what you asked was:



For you to understand the answer to why you have to open your eyes to the big picture and the good things happening in that country every day. Allowing your political bias to paint all the work I did, Lone Wolf is doing and 1000s of Americans are accomplishing daily a GREAT disservice to all of our military personnel. It is simply dishonest.



Yes. I spent 6 months in Kuwait participating in force protection operations. My unit made several trips into Iraq as security escort for other operations. One such trip was escorting a medical unit going to provide dental care to Iraqi citizens. Another was escorting a different medical team then went to assist with medical care of Iraqi citizens. Another was to escort a convoy of goods and medicine being delivered to an Iraqi run hospital.

I met alot of people. I only met one Iraqi who thought they might be better off in the future if Saddam was still there because the racial divisions could lead to alot of violence. Everyone else I met, including that gentleman saw their lives as VASTLY improved now that Saddam was gone. That one man just worried that Racial and Religious divides could not be resolved without an iron hand.

I met many TCNs (Third Country Nationals) in Kuwait while on escort detail, supervising trucks coming into our facility. Not one thought Iraq was better of before, and not one had a good thing to say about Saddam but several questioned Americas involvement. I didn't discuss the reason we were there, that was not my job, but most seemed to have misguided ideas about why we were there. Many thought we wanted to take the oil. Others thought America was on an anti-Islam crusade. I believed their opinions were because of how information in that part of the word is extremely limited and censured by the various governments.
You can not win over peoples hearts and minds if they can't hear you.




Thanks for your continued service LW. You know your brothers in country have your back. Remember, your brothers back at home have it as well. The majority in this country support you and your people, the good work you are all doing, and your mission.




The improvements in Iraq are obvious to anyone who has been there. Saddam was using the Oil for food / medicine program for himself and his supporters. Medicine was not in the hospitals, food was not on the table and the infrastructure was collapsing.

Iraq is Obviously better now then it was before. And a couple of IEDs a week do not come close to compare to the 1000s tortured and slaughtered annually by Saddams Regime. Any Iraqi will tell you those horror stories, and American soldiers have found documentation of many of them.

Is Iraq better now then it was? Open your eyes and ears, the truth that it is better off is plain to see for anyone without a bias or an axe to grind.

The poll referenced by Bela was conducted for ABCNEWS, ARD, the BBC and NHK by Oxford Research International of Oxford, England. Interviews were conducted in person, in Arabic and Kurdish, among a random national sample of 2,737 Iraqis. Did you bother to read the link? It certainly is not all good news.

I haven’t seen anything from FOXnews or CBS on this thread so far. I am surprised to hear that you believe CNN, the Ted Turner network, to be objectionable and biased in favor of the war. I am curious why you reject all the good news, and embrace all the bad.

If I am narrow minded to reject antiwar.com as biased, understand that I would be equally narrow minded about testimony from a website entitled prowar.com.

Is Iraq a better place now?

Yes, I think it is although how would anyone know by the media coverage almost 24/7 showing nothing but terrorists attacks? And, I find it almost laughable that invariably the "Iraqi man/woman in the street" the reporters choose to interview are worse off since the war, they stay in their house, (only come out to buy food or protest), have no utilities, no work, kids aren't going to school...in general not very satisfied campers.

Now before I get a bunch of flames thrown my way, I am not for a minute saying everything is glorious or secure in Iraq. It is a dangerous place with serious problems. Yes, there are many Iraqi people worse off since Saddam rode out of town to his family farm, went underground, and came up for air only to be arrested by our troops. But, he got a free physical, hair cut, shave, a bath, a change of clothes, and a safe place to stay.

In so many words, if you are searching for good news about almost anything, but especially Iraq:


Newspapers-hunt for the small type headlines and closer to the bottom of the last page in the main sections. If you want the real scoop on Iraq, sign up and join the Iraq Today newspaper for a two-week trial to join.

TV-forget the regular programming of local and cable news shows and catch some of CNN's Iraq Specials -those reporters sometimes stray off the terrorists' beaten path and stumble into real Iraqi people with businesses, streets and highways filled with (cars) traffic other than the troops' tanks.

Internet-use your favorite search engine (Google) and use search words like....Iraq good....Iraq today....Iraq business...Iraq banks.....may take time, but if you persist you will find SOME GOOD NEWS ABOUT IRAQ

No offense taken - because you're wrong.

The sewers ran through the streets in Abu Gharib and Saddam City when saddam was here. Baghdad had power 24/7 when Saddam was here, but everywhere else went without. Now all the power isn't hoarded by Baghdad, and the only people complaining about power are here - which just so happens to be where all the reporters are. We have, since we arrived, opened over 300 NEW schools, hired teachers, and begun classes. For the first time in almost 20 years a Baghdad University diploma will mean something - they have books on new ideas and new technology, internet access, connection to the outside world. Doctors learn western medicine, new techniques, and methods not known in Iraq before the war, where before who knew how to do, say, heart surgery were those in the employ of Saddam for his friends and family. Hospitals are coming along toward western standards, standards that only Saddam's private doctors had access to before.

Shall I go on?

And all that doesn't even take into account that the iraqi people, for the first time in 40 years, feel hopeful and empowered. they dissent - good for them. Most of them, while they are complaining, realize that if we were Saddam they'd be killed, tortured or mutilated for their statements.

I don't really have too much to add to this discussion other than my appreciation to people like Lone Wolf and Overlandsailor for their efforts on our behalf in Iraq and sharing their firsthand knowledge with us all about what's really going on there. I heard today that something like 200 newspapers have been established in Iraq since it was liberated and that seems to me to be a positive thing.

I second Aquilla's appreciation to Overlandsailor and Lone Wolf...wonderful to have firsthand news that is constructive and realistic.

During one of Rumsfeld's interviews, he was trying to explain how long it had been since infrastructure, hospitals, etc. had been upgraded. For instance, he mentioned one of their primary hospitals hadn't been upgraded in over 50 years!!!! Bremer also mentioned shortly after we went into Iraq, that the infrastructure hadn't been upgraded in decades. So, on top of the damage from the wars (past and current), Saddam was lining his pockets and building his palaces with stolen money from the Iraqi people instead of upgrading and maintaining.

Here are a couple of links that will provide more insight into the problems and progress of infrastructure, etc.




http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navc...+Infrastructure

Good link for other links to briefings about Iraq's infrastructure....some of these briefings are long, but what an education in the realities of rebuilding Iraq with just the basics.

The grand scope of this project is mind boggling and awesome!

Before I get gladhanded by too many conservatives (not that I don't appreciate it ), I would like to point out that most of the improvements that have been made have been bottom-up, fairly disorganized projects by military commanders. The CPA, who's job it is to work a lot of these projects, is often too tied up in red tape and political games to do much that's going to help Abu on the street.

What generally happens is this - Psyop tells the General that people are irritable because of lack of power and it's becoming a recruiting point for the bad guys. Ganeral says "we need power." General and CPA dance for a few months, General finally says "screw it, I'll buy it myself," digs into his own (ammo, training, maintenance, etc) coffers and buys a few generators for the local power plant. He does this not because he's a nice guy, but because it's the best way to make sure his soldiers aren't getting shot at.

This is not the optimum or the most cost-effective solution, but it's what happens A LOT around here, and why no one can honestly say how much the war is going to cost. There are a lot of contracts finally getting through the CPA now that military commanders handled long ago. The 4ID commander was known for this, and that's one of the reasons Kirkuk is so well off now.

Is Iraq better off now than before? I really can't say, so I'll take the word of people who have been there both before and after. That is, the Iraqis themselves.

Regarding our own people over there, kudos for all the good work you are doing. Just because I want you all home ASAP doesn't mean I don't appreciate your work and risk. It's the risk that prompts me to want this Iraq adventure resolved quickly. I personally don't care so much for whether Iraq turns out better than it was. Iraq is a concept to me, not a reality.

Here's a good oped piece along these lines. Broder explains it better than I can:

Broder, Washington Post

yes, iraqis are allowed to speak their mind ... if it falls in line with what the U.S. wants. otherwise i guarantee that they can not freely vote or say what they want

Really?

So the ones we have seen on TV saying that they have nothing, or lost everything because of the war is what the U.S. wants?

Please, elaborate, I'd really like to understand what makes you believe this.

was this on us news or foreign?

OK, I'm calling you out. You said you can guarantee that Iraqi's cannot speak thier mind freely...........prove it.

You seem to have missed the explosion of newspapers and TV/radio shows since the fall of Saddam, many of which are highly critical of the US.

But, please, I'm waiting for your proof..................

perhaps guarantee was an understatement. i theorize that the "little people" (those not involved in govt) may be allowed to speak their mind. however, i highly doubt that thsoe who will be shaping the country will have as much freedom. since the media is so biased and potentially corrupt, it is hard to trust their depictions of iraq to begin with.

The major media, with a few exceptions, focuses on the bad rather then the good in Iraq. They focus on the bombings, yet doesn't mention that attacks have lessoned considerably. They focus on those areas when problems with infrastructure, medicine and the like still exist, ignoring the vast majority of the country which has improved. They focus on a few dissenting voices, though polling conducted in Iraq show the majority of the country feels they are better off.

Since you suggest the media is bias, corrupt and untrustworthy then, by your argument it would appear Iraq is in fact better off then before the war since the majority of voices in the American Media would suggest that it is not.

Further still, I guess there really is no true question that we should have gone to war and did so for the right reasons since the majority of the bias, corrupt and untrustworthy media continuously questions this as well.

Is Iraq a better place now?

Below is a link to an open letter type article of Bechtel Corporation to set the facts straight. Rather interesting and also note how many Iraqi contractors/workers they hire...rather interesting article.

http://www.bechtel.com/iraqallegationresponse.htm

This is true. When I first got home friends were shocked to hear after Baghdad fell I was probably safer in Iraq than I would be walking through North Philadelphia. That was the last time I heard a shot fired in anger. The headlines were always about bombings in Baghdad and Fallujah and it gave the impression that the whole country was awash with violence. What was going on in other cities like Kirkuk, Najaf or Basra just wasn't as newsworthy.

There is not a doubt in my mind that Iraqis are better off. We still may have a long way to go and some rebuilding to do, but at least Iraqis will no longer end up in mass graves just because they are different religion from the ruling minority.

It is not a better place at all. Part of the reason why Saddam was left in power in the early '90s was because the Bush I folks were afraid of civil strife and instability that would ensue with his downfall. I believe that we are seeing their guesses confirmed. Does anyone here seriously believe that a pro-western candidat would beat Sheik al-Sistani or any other Arab of influence who hates us?? Add to that the fact that we are still losing soldiers everyday, and you have the perfect recipe for a quagmire, which is exactly what this occupation is.

Just a question. Not meant as a slight in anyway, honest

Doesn't the fact that the various people that have been there or are there now and say that the country is better off, and far better off then the news reports would have you believe mean anything?

Evidently Hans Blix feels that Iraq is not a better place to be. In light of recent events, I'm not certain that he's wrong! If he were wrong, then there would be pitched battles in the streets of pro-western Iraqis vs. the Sunnis & Shias who are trying to grab the reigns.



http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/25789...26|reuters.html

Ummmm, lessee. No more rape rooms, no more torture chambers, no more kids in prison, no more schools that don't allow girls, no more mass graves being filled, no more relatives being dragged off never to be seen again; need I list more?

If you don't think Iraq is better off today, then you're getting your news from CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, the New York Times, the LA Times, the Washington Post, etc.

I'm just flummoxed. I HATE it when people lie to me. Why don't liberals take offence at being lied to by other liberals?


I live inside the DC beltway. I've been a journalist for more than 30 years. I can sniff a lie a mile away. And the left is lying. As usual. Wake up and think for yourself.

Excuuuuse me, Nebraska29. You seem to have a selective memory. When Bush1 was pushing the raping, murdering Iraquis out of Kuwat, not a day went by when some Democrat in Congress didn't rail against him, claiming that President Bush would use his UNITED NATIONS MANDATE to roll into Iraq and depose Saddam. And not a day went by when Bush1 didn't announce on TV that he would not violate the limitations of the UNITED NATIONS MANDATE and would NOT use the MANDATE to depose Saddam. And now the mealy-mouthed Democrats hold it against Bush1 that he followed the UNITED NATIONS MANDATE

If the daily attacks on American soldiers and "soft targets" can be so easily dismissed when one asks if Iraq is a better place, I suppose we can adopt a wait-and-see attitude come June 30. Then we will truly see what the Iraqis want, to adopt an American system of government which is alien to their culture or to revert to tribal, sectarian violence as has been standard fare for arab cultures for centuries.

Do we actually think we're going to change it all because we deposed Saddam?

Is Iraq a better place now?, Do the facts support the rhetoric?

As I have mentioned before, if you rely on major media networks for reporting good news from Iraq, the search becomes a bit more challenging. IMO...good news (of any kind) usually does not make for front page headlines or Top News in TV nightly news reporting.

Below are some opinions and links to sources for Iraq's Progress:

A soldier assures us: Our progress is amazing
By JOE ROCHE

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/e...outlook/2487509

1. How exactly is democracy an "American" style of government. Any number of cultures worldwide have implemented democracy. If I might use a little jargon from the other side. That kind of reasoning is the very height of cultural arrogance.


Looks like we're off to a decent start...


Poll: Most Iraqis Ambivalent About the War, But Not Its Results
Full Poll and Notes

I agree with this. This is why President Bush must succeed in Iraq for it to all be worth it. If the United States were to pull out, leaving the state of things in Iraq half baked, it would be a huge failure and a disservice to the men and women who fought (and fight) for the cause of freedom and stability in the world.

You know, I beleive they said the same stuff back in Vietnam. We MUST win or the world would be run over by communism.

50,000 dead with nothing to show for it. Communism decreased on it's own.

Will it take that many dead Americans in Iraq to try to make the same type of case?

...of course, if one examines the actual stats, that many deaths in Iraq is nigh unto impossible. To even compare this to Vietnam is ... not accurate.

Of course what about Iraq being a better place. The Iraqis seem to say so... fortunately we have the media to enlighten us to the truth .

This speaks of the folly of trying to make a generalization with insufficient pinpricks of evidence. What we see on TV doesn't speak for the real Iraq... never has.

I've always assumed it was the Vietnam war that put an end to Communism... no nation that I am aware of tried to go communist after the world saw what happened to the Vietnamese...