But the issue at hand is whether this was an appropriate act of defense.

Rev. Del Fuego
Now tell me, how will his murder help defend Israel? All of the x-factors that forced him to view Israel as an oppressor are still there to breed more like him. Killing him will only drive more people to be militants. Do you think the Palestinians are just going to lie down and be ran over by the Israeli war machine because they have killed one man? Even if you wipe out all of Hamas, how long will it be until another fed up Arab starts another group just like it to rebel against the occupation?

Now here's the intresting thing. You imply that the Palestinians should not lie down and be crushed by the Israeli 'war machine'. I ask you... do you expect the Israelis to do the same under the Palestinian 'terror machine'? What do you expect the innocents of Israel to do?

At the same time what makes Hamas justified in their killing of innocents.

Rev Del Fuego
Well the way Hamas looks at it is this: every single Israeli must serve in the military. Therefore every Israeli is, will be, or was a solider.

Well the way Hamas looks at it is this: every single Israeli must serve in the military. Therefore every Israeli is, will be, or was a solider. Not every Arab will grow up to be a terrorist.

Please cite your sources for the claim which you've made on behalf of Hamas.

Finally, Palestinian armed groups also assert that their targets are not really civilians because "all Israelis are reservists" or because, they say, Israeli residents of settlements have forfeited their civilian status. The report points out that international humanitarian law is clear: reserve members of military forces are combatants only while on active duty, and otherwise benefit from protection as civilians. And while civilian Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza are illegal under international humanitarian law, persons residing there are entitled to protection as civilians except when they are directly participating in hostilities.

Tell me you don't believes this justifies murder.

And what of the people who serve their mandatory two years and become doctors, teachers, rabbis, mothers, fathers.

You calling the Reverend a liar? jk Ask and you shall receive.

Humans Rights Watch:


This isn't where I got my personal information from. My best friend is Palestinian, no lie either but his name is Osama, and gave me insight to how they view their oppression and their rebellion. Although I never really looked into it until I started reading the news years later.

Another good article on Hamas charity and the effect it has on Palestinian society is in Time Magazine.


No I believe that the occupation and the torment by the Israelis make the suicide bombers understandable. They don't have anyway to fight back, which is documented in the Time article which I strongly suggest should be read.


Look at the last two you listed. Every child that they produce will also become a solider. It is a logical standpoint, I admit not a moral one though .

Hamas asserts "all Israelis are reservists", but your source leaves the other half out. They also say "except children and the elderly".

But I find it curious that Human Rights Watch finds the Palestinians guilty of war crimes, finds their leaders completely accountable, but you're on here defending homicide bombers because they are "oppressed".

As Israeli military operations escalated in December 2001, so did the number and gravity of violations committed by the Israel Defence Forces.......During the operation, Israeli soldiers repeatedly used indiscriminate and excessive force, killed civilians willfully and unlawfully, and used Palestinian civilians as human shields. IDF troops also inflicted damage to homes, businesses, and government offices; looted and stole in the course of searches; coerced civilians to assist military operations, and detained at least 4,500 Palestinian men and boys, many of whom reported ill-treatment during arrest and interrogation. From March 29 to April 19, the Israeli authorities impeded the entrance of outside observers, including journalists, human rights activists, United Nations representatives, and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). These violations reflected patterns of abuse that--partly reflecting the effective impunity enjoyed by Israeli soldiers--had progressively worsened since September 2000.

But in no way, shape or form, is the targeting of innocent civilians justified in any way. I mean, if they were strictly attacks against the military, that'd be one thing. But there are innoncent men, women, and children dying at the hands of these cowards.

we hold these truths dot com[/URL]]In Israel the buses are owned and subsidized by the government; each is a military transport, dropping the armed forces off at bus stops and duty stations along the way where jeeps and trucks sometimes wait.

(snip)

anyone who boards an Israeli bus is taking a military position, just as if you hitchhiked through town in one of the Army's jeeps.

(snip)

Not one of the four buses I rode on for a total of over a thousand kilometers while in Israel was less than 25% military-occupied at any time, and most were well in excess of that. It occurred to me, why would a Palestinian bomber waste his life on a civilian target, when he could target a busload of armed soldiers on their way to or from attacks on Jenin or Ramallah? The answer was obvious--Palestinian guerillas do target buses, and they hit buses more often than any other target, perhaps more often than all other targets combined.

(snip)

Are we to believe that every body bomber is an irrational sub-human who cleverly manages to single out "innocent civilians" and never hits at military targets, as Mr. Bush and Mr. Netanyahu suggest?  (more at: we hold these truths dot com

Unabomber
...but what if the palestinians were targeting military personal and the women and children were simply collateral damage?

May 27, 2002 - A grandmother and her infant granddaughter were killed and 37 people were injured, some seriously, when a suicide bomber detonated himself near an ice cream parlor outside a shopping mall in Petah Tikva. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Among the dead was the head of the Emergency room at Jerusalem’s Sha’are Zedek hospital. Dr. David Appelbaum, 50, had taken his daughter, Nava, 20, to the café on the eve of her wedding, which was to have taken place Wednesday night. Both were killed in the bombing...


Applebaum’s daughter, Nava, a volunteer with children suffering from cancer as part of her national youth service, was buried on what would have been her wedding day.

Unabomber
...also, looking at the whole situation from there viewpoint, there is no such thing as an innocent israeli adult. you should keep in mind that every israeli citizen that is able bodied must serve in the IDF. jewish teens are therefore, to the palestinians, potential enemies and aggressors, and anyone older then 18 is a current or past aggressors. by killing israeli teens, the palestinians are carrying out "pre-emptive self defense" america and israel both claim they have the right to pre-emptivly attack people, the palestinians are simply doing the same. personally, I don't blame them.

What "other half" are you talking about? Where did they say except "children and elderly?" It said "ALL ISRAELIS."

This other half. Do a search on that page for "all Israelis are reservists".

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/isrl-pa/IS...htm#P678_150385

Once again, the facts do not support the rhetoric.

Your argument can be turned around and justify the slaughter of innocent Palestinians because of their potential future as an Islamic militant suicide bomber.

both sexes are liable for military service

I blame them for the murders of elderly women at ice cream shops, I blame them for murdering people attending religious ceremonies, I blame them for murdering young women about to be married, and I blame them for killing those whose business is in SAVING lives, not destroying them.

This other half. Do a search on that page for "all Israelis are reservists".

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/isrl-pa/IS...htm#P678_150385

Once again, the facts do not support the rhetoric.

They are all in the military, men and women....

Somehow the moderates, in Isreal and Palestine, have to get control of the situation. There is nothing more dangerous than being a moderate leader in the Middle East. They tend to get assassinated. I cannot believe that the vast majority of Palestinians and Isrealis would not agree to compromise if it would insure a Palestinian state and a secure Isreal.

There is only one sane conclusion that a rational human being can take from this debate and that is that terrorism; the deliberate murder of women and children, and the use of children as weapons

On June 21, four civilians, including three children, were killed as they attempted to buy food in the Jenin market: An initial military inquiry said that local soldiers had "erred." .....During military operations, Israeli soldiers routinely coerced Palestinian civilians, including children, to perform life-endangering acts that assisted military operations.

Ghandi contributed to the change of a sub-continent. Seen any Islamic Ghandis lately? India/Pakistan was another "British Mandate" wasn't it?

Gandhi on the Palestine conflict – 1938

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French…What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct…If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs…As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds."

Mahatma Gandhi quoted in "A Land of Two Peoples" ed. Mendes-Flohr

If the Islamic Arabs in "Palestine" wanted a just compromise they could have had it decades ago!

Rev Del Fuego
No, because not every single arab turns into a suicide bomber, almost all Israeli children joins the IDF.

International humanitarian law makes clear, however, that reserve or off-duty soldiers who are not at that moment subject to the integrated disciplinary command of the armed forces are considered civilians until the time that they become subject to military command-meaning, until they are effectively incorporated into the armed forces. Their incorporation into the regular armed forces is most frequently signified by wearing a uniform or other identifiable insignia.

Rev Del Fuego
...how else are they supposed to handle oppression? Should the family throw the rubble of their house at the Israeli bulldozer that is demolishing it? Should they shoot at the Apache that out ranges them? Or just protest in the streets unheard by everyone else while Israel funds another illegal settlement.

Now obviously, there is gonna be some major violence towards Israel during the next few days and maybe into next week, but the question i am gonna ask is gonna be this:

How will this effect the peace negotiations?

Personally, i think with the founder of Hamas dead (if he is the nerve center of Hamas), then i think Hamas will shatter and peace negotiations will continue and be successful. There might be splinter groups who would want to continue to target Israel, but i think peace now has a chance

On a side note, I believe that it is a total shame that this administration has done little in terms of peace for this region.  At least Clinton had the groups talking, which allowed for some people over there not to be killed.  This president really doesn't seem to care at all.

But by your own words, not all of them do. Unless the value of almost was upgraded to all. That and number one, if military personell are off duty and in civilian attire, then they are considered civilians.

The Geneva Convention protects civilians in occupied territories, not civilians who are in fact occupiers. All of Israel, Tel Aviv included, is occupied Palestine. So we're not actually targeting civilians-that would go against Islam."

No one knows who exactly will or will not become a member of the IDF.

If Israel intentionally targeted Palestinian women and children, there would be an uproar of massive proportions. So why is it that Hamas et al fell they are justified?

It worked for Gandhi. Why wont it work for the PA?

"In internal discussion in 1938 [David Ben-Gurion] stated that 'after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine'...

Ghandi had it right on non-violence but he was wrong on the history! Especially Judean history. The Jews were in Judea 4000 years ago. Check their calendar. The Arabs were in "Arabia";......reclaim their homeland in the face of overwhelming odds."

Because they do target women children and the elderly. That is why they feel justified. Even if you don't count military actions just look at occupation, their policies don't ever consider the Palestinian women, children, elderly and any other Palestinian group. That is how they justify it.

That is a flat out lie.....It's impossible to randomly kill non-combatants at a rate where 95% of the casualties are male.

During the operation, Israeli soldiers repeatedly used indiscriminate and excessive force, killed civilians willfully and unlawfully, and used Palestinian civilians as human shields......Israeli security forces continued to resort to excessive and indiscriminate use of lethal force, causing numerous civilian deaths and serious injuries.In Jenin, Human Rights Watch documented twenty-two civilian killings during the IDF military operations in April. Many of them were killed willfully or unlawfully, and in some cases constituted war crimes. Fifty-seven-year-old Kamal Zghair, a wheelchair-bound man, was shot and then run over by IDF tanks on April 10 as he was moving in his wheelchair--equipped with a white flag--down a major road in Jenin.Thirty-seven-year-old Jamal Fayid, a quadriplegic, was crushed to death in the rubble of his home on April 7 after IDF soldiers refused to allow his family to remove him from their home before a bulldozer destroyed it.....On June 21, four civilians, including three children, were killed as they attempted to buy food in the Jenin market: An initial military inquiry said that local soldiers had "erred." Municipal driver Ahmad al-Qureini was shot and killed by Israeli soldiers on August 10, despite the fact he had permission to travel during curfews. A subsequent IDF investigation stated his vehicle had lacked the flashing light required for proper municipal identification, despite Associated Press video footage of the incident that showed the flashing light.....  Israeli forces used snipers, helicopter-fired missiles, tanks, and explosive devices to carry out the killings, many of which appear to have been undertaken in circumstances where the target could have been arrested. According to LAW, the Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the Environment, some 148 individuals were killed in these "liquidations" between November 9, 2000 and August 31, 2002. At least forty-six civilian bystanders were also killed. On July 23, 2002, fourteen civilians were killed and some 140 injured in the "liquidation" of Hamas military leader Salah Shehadeh. Eight of the fourteen were children.  Israeli political and military authorities had approved the operation, which involved the dropping of a one-ton bomb in a crowded civilian residential area, in violation of Israel's obligation under international humanitarian law to minimize civilian casualties. An IDF inquiry held the next day determined the means of attack had been "inappropriate." The operation was described by Prime Minister Sharon as "a great success."......In another case, Faisal Abu Sariya, a forty-two-year-old teacher, was forced to both shield and assist IDF troops from April 4-6 in the Jenin refugee camp, [B]until he was shot by Israeli forces.....These restrictions were so severe and widespread as to constitute collective punishment....Throughout the year IDF forces blocked access to emergency medical assistance on numerous occasions and for long periods, often in circumstances that appeared to violate Israel's obligations under international humanitarian law. Israeli soldiers also attacked ambulances and harassed or ill-treated emergency medical personnel, alleging armed Palestinian groups used ambulances to transport weapons and personnel.....

[/B]

2,859 deaths including  527, or 19% children (below 18 years). At least 82% civilian.  600 killed by heavy weapons. 1,728 killed by live ammunition. 308 in assassination attacks/extrajudicial killings (grave breach of the 4th Geneva Convention and as such considered war crimes). 152 of those were bystanders or “unintended” victims, killed as they were with the victim, 35 were children and 25 were women.  Investigations were not conducted, granting immunity to Israelis and allowing them to act unlawfully.

Again, although Israel has not acted smartly in the past in that regard, none the less, its a far better option than going out for ice cream and being blown up.