Nice bit of conjecture there. Got anything to back it up?

Again, this is looking at only one side of the issue. I don't deny that Arafat is a bit of a dissembler - but what about Sharon? Is not his acting like he's even remotely interested in continuing the peace process ever while at the same time sending out terrorists to execute a targeted assassination also a bit of a "game"? The only difference is that, in the case of Sharon, there's actual proof of duplicity. You think the Likud is weally weally trying?

Sharon publicly admitted that huge concessions are necessary. The peace process was running smoothly months ago. Remember when the Hamas agreed to a cease fire only to break it a month or so later? Yasser Arafat is the leader of Fatah an Egyptian organization rooted in terrorism. Yasser and the palestinians will never accept a Palestinian state because they will never accept a Jewish state in the middle east. Fatah and Arafat are stalling. They are biding their time as the Palestinian population grows. The goal for the Palestinians isnt a seperate state (they could have had it) its to push out the Jews. This is also the goal of the arab league. This is why the US has to arm the Israelis. Yassin was a callous killer who had his own brother murdered. Yassin is responsible for the deaths of babies, children and old people not to mention Palestinians. I do not think his death will do anything but help the situation. The Hamas have shown their cards. They have nothing to bluff with. When you start blowing up civilians their isnt another step. They cannot step up the violence because they have been at 100 percent attack mode for years. I mean what can Hamas do? Launch suicide attacks??? They are already doing that. I mean here is the situation. Allow Yassin to live and deal with suicide attacks. Kill Yassin and .......deal with suicide attacks. Its win, win its lose, lose. Im glad he is dead. I think its the smart play as it really doesnt matter and this scum bag maniac deserved it. So the surrounding arab nations say the peace is over...They never wanted peace. They will never accept a Jewish state. No matter what Israel does its neighbors will want to destroy it.

Sharon and his government is notorious for saying one thing and doing another. Like in his unilateral withdrawl he said they were going to pullout of the occupied territories, then a week later budgeted $21M for them.

Israel accused Hamas of using the seize fire as time to rearm, they then started to assassinate members without showing proof or giving the PA a chance to crackdown. Hamas retaliated, that is how the peace after the roadmap was broken.

The goal of the Israelis is the same thing. Look at the founding of Israel. The Israelis are clearly cracking down to start a war. When Hamas strikes back for the illegal assassination they will play the victim and use it to further crack down on the Pal. people.

Israel stated that they took action against Hamas because of the failure of the PLO to do anything about it. Israel did this by the use of military aircraft equipped with missiles. The PLO does not have such capability, so how does Israel expect them to accomplish this task?

I want to see an end to suicide bombers. In order for this to take place, we need to build an army and airforce for Palestine. Give them the same weapons that Israel has. If the tables were turned, it would be Jews blowing themselves up at the border.

Go Palestine, go!!!!!! Israel is about to find out what desperation really does to a group of people. Go Palestine!!!!!

As an American male, I now side with the Palestinian cause. I like the underdog, and it is the actions of Israel that I despise so much. I can't even imagine what I would do if I was in the same boat as a Palestine man. I would go crazy and spend every last breath of my life trying to inflict pain on the bastards that held me down. What would you do in that case?

Go Palestine!!!!!!

Easy..I would act like a human being, instead of two legged vermin. I might target military installations and infrastructure instead of cafe's, busses and markets. I might wage war on the Israeli military instead of conducting cowardly attacks on women and children.
It disturbs me that anyone would be 'on the side' of such human rodents.

I'm glad Yassim is dead. Too bad it won't make any difference. Hamas will continue to brainwash children, and breed homicide bombers.
Ahh Islam....the religion of peace......

Israel kills a lot more innocent people. What military targets does Israel attack? The front door to a mosque? The guy was a blind quadriplegic. Treat people like animals and they will turn into animals. Israel is lying in it's own bed. Go Palestine!!!!

Would you be willing to give them an Army to fight the military of Israel? If not, why?

What is truly disturbing if the amount of peolpe who think that Israel is in the right. With overwhelming force they continue to steal land from an unarmed neighbor. And they wonder why these peolpe are so desperate that they blow themselves up!!!! Trust me, give the Palestinians some real weapons, and you will see the end to suicide bombers. Let's at least make this a fair fight, and by all means, stop pointing fingers in the wrong direction.

There you have it folks, the Middle East "peace process" in action. The real solution is to arm the terrorists like Hamas so they can kill more Jews. Who is at fault here? Probably a topic for a different thread, but I do lay partial fault at the feet of those who draw a moral equivalence to the targeting of a terrorist leader with that of blowing up families in an Israeli pizza parlor.

How will this effect the peace negotiations?

It won't. There will never be peace in that area. As for the poor crippled Hamas founder, Good!
Hamas made targets out of children. Out of families. Every last one should be put down.
How to move the peace process along. Arafat should be next.

No one is equating the blowing up of the targeting of blowing up a terrorist leader to the suicide bombings that Israel suffers. We are equating the suffering and death of the Palestinians that occur under the Israeli occupation to the death and suffering of those families effected by these suicide bombers. No matter how you look at the is wrong doing on both sides.

The same thing could be said of Israel. Who are the targeting when they divert water from a Palestinian town, which has been there for decades, to a settlement. You are the targeting when they bulldoze a home when the owner cannot obtain a building permit due to the discrimination of the Israelis. Who affected when the shoot massive ordinance in a populated area. Sharon should go before Arafat since he is in the position of power and has the power to stop it. All Arafat can do is condemn and plead for the terrorists to stop.

Okay, it is horrible when Hamas kills women and children and cripples, but it is okay when Isreal does it

The best thing we can do to make America safer and get some actual credibility in the peace proccess is to start holding Isreal to the same standards as Iraq and Hamas. And perhaps effect a regime change in Isreal.

Killing a blind parapalegic won't have any effect whatsoever negatively on Hamas, and will just prolong the fighting there, and actually make it harder for us to deal with more moderate middle eastern goverments- since we were the only country that said it was okay.

The murder of Yassin is nothing like "moving the peace process along" - nor would the murder of Arafat be. You are right that there will never be peace in the area - until the world (which, um, includes the United States of America) starts accepting the facts that neither side is heroic or defensible, that atrocities have been and are being committed by both sides, that this is a fight over the same territory, that Israel wants "Arab land" as much as Arab's want "Israeli land", that this dispute will never be solved by military means, and that arming or even siding with one faction against the other is almost as big a mistake as was creating a Jewish state in that region in the first place. Unless one wants to see limitless bloodshed for generations, possibly escalating into a war of global proportions, "Go, Palestine!" is just as counter-productive as "Go, Israel!"

Those who champion the destruction and murder of innocents perpetrated by one side while ignoring (or even celebrating) the identical practices perpetrated by the other are as much a part of the problem as is their opposition. There are no "good guys" in this conflict. The rest of the world needs to recognize that a solution is not going to come from within the region - and it is not going to come from taking either side in the region. It is going to come by forcing both sides to lay down their arms and accept the fact that both factions are going to have to make serious concessions. There will never be a solution to this until it is no longer a conflict between Arabs and Israelis, with the rest of the world taking sides, but a conflict between the rest of the world and every violent faction in the region, Arab and Israeli alike.

Yes, to expand on what Wertz said, we need to treat Isreal like Kosovo or South Africa, stop sending arms to Isreal, trade sanctions immeidiatly, enforce UN resolutions, force Isreal to repatriate Palestine exiles etc, without this there will be no peace, ever.

I hate to come off as a jerk, but they guy had it coming. I mean, how do you not expect to get whacked after calling for jihad time and again, especially after Israel said it was takin off the kid gloves? Was it the brightest idea for Israel to pull this off, only time will tell. One thing is sure though, there are gonna be a bunch of ticked off Palestinians for a long time.

As far as this hit affecting the 'roadmap to peace', I'm sorry but this road trip took a wrong turn a long time ago. What other worls leaders have to understand is that any 'peace' they broker, will be a temporary one. In the end, both the Arabs and Israelis (that make it an issue) are playin for keeps. Israel will not give up Jerusalem. EVER. The Palestinians, backed by the Arab world, will not stop until Jerusalem is theirs. Plain and simple. Both sides could brokers deals regarding settlements, land, terrorism, but in the end it comes down to Jerusalem. Plain and simple. If I was a world leader, I'd scrap this 'roadmap' and call AAA.

Jack Straw, the U.K. foreign minister, came down on Israel rather hard for making the hit, and I'm thinkin, the guy encouraged and helped coordinate suicide attacks in Israel for years, and if you've seen some of the video or read descriptions of these attacks, you'd want him dead too. Again, I can't say it was a great idea, surely it was puuting out a fire with gasoline, but Hamas was warned and they ignored it. Sucks to be them.

Another thing that bothers me is they way they argue this as a murder of a feeble, near blind and near deaf quadrapalegic. You know, OBL is supposedly wounded and on dialysis, should we not go after him? Mullah Omar is missing an eye, should we grant him clemancy? The issue shouldn't be, 'oh, the poor guy needs to use a colostomy bag, let's let him loose', but of 'this guy's a dangerous influence, this guy's ability to inspire is dangerous, this 'spiritual leader condoning murder is dangerous, and he needs to be removed.

I can't agree with that analysis.

While atrocities may occur on both sides, the level is quite different. This is like saying that Bin Laden killed a few thousand innocent Americans, but in our attempt to get him, we killed a dozen innocent Afghans. So, we are as bad as Bin Laden. While horrific, the levels cannot be compared.

The Hamas leader just killed was the head of a snake that rejects Israel's right to exist. Because of him and Pals like him, schoolkids are raised to hate Jews more than love their own lives. Less teachings of this type of hatred would be a good thing. And if he's in the ground, he's not preaching.

As clearly spelled out in http://www.ict.org.il/ (don't read the summary - read the report), the atrocities are clearly against Israel. Jews have been run out of all the Arab lands around them. They have Arab neighbors all around them that have all went to war with Israel at one time or another simply for existing. And every single one of them wants Israel destroyed.

But the most important statistic that says it all, is the number of non-combatant males killed by Israel. 95% of all non-combatants killed by Israel are male. 95%. There is no way, no how, you can randomly kill males at a 95% rate. As tragic as any innocent death is, Israel clearly makes an effort to keep that from happening. Which may be slightly different than blowing up a bus full of schoolkids, but that's only one man's opinion.

The stats are normally skewed by looking at the simple numbers. They lump combatants in with noncombatants, suicide bombers with innocent civilians, and report Palestinian “collaborators” murdered by their own compatriots as if they had been killed by Israel. 80% of Israelis killed by Palestinians are non-combatants. The current figure of combatants killed by Israel is somewhere around 55%. However, a great portion of the remaining 45% contain fatalities that where combatant status could not be determined. So, the Pals are given the benefit of the doubt in this report. However, keep in mind that 95% of that 45% are male. Something stinks to high heaven/Allah on this and it starts with Arafat putting kids up for PR purposes.

The Palestinians have the greatest PR machine in the world because everybody wants to favor the underdog. But what we're really doing, is granting mercy to the guy that killed both his parents because he's a poor orphan.

The rhetoric never stops. Israel gets accused of starving the Pals out by destroying their orchard fields (it gets repeated here often). The fact is, those orchards are diseased. Israel gets accused of bulldozing homes seemingly because it's fun to terrorize innocent Palestinians (a term which may be an oxymoron). The fact is, is tunnels exist under those homes to transport weapons used to kill Jews, rockets are continually fired from those homes, and the people living in those neighborhoods are helping to harbor the terrorists. The only other way Israel has to get rid of those tunnels and the terrorist hiding in them is just to bomb the heck out of them and not risk the life of one Israeli solider. But they don't. The put boots on the ground to find the terrorists they know exist (and if the Israelis know who they are, the people surrounding the terrorists do) and flush them out.

Accidents and tragedy happen, but it doesn't happen because Israel created these situations. Israel needs to defend itself and all of these tragedies happen in response to another tragedy the Palestinians perpetrated. Is Israel a saint in this matter? Of course not. But the majority (if not all) of any culpability is a direct result of attacks against them.

Peace for both sides and hope on the side of the Pals cannot ever happen until the Palestinians acknowledge Israel's right to exist. To date, that's been a show-stopper with any deal ever struck or thought about. Go to a Palestinian website and look at the widely accepted (by the Pals, and what the kids are taught) map of Palestine. Look for Israel. You won't find it.

The PLO was created to destroy Israel in 1964 - three years before the 1967 war. This is not about land and never was about land. It's about Arabs exterminating Jews. For all their faults, Israel is the only beacon of light in that are that represents something other than tyranny and dictatorship. With half their country bordered by sea and the other bordered by people reguraly killing them, they need to take steps to ensure their survival.

Killing terrorists leaders, while horrific, is necessary. Because in the long run, it is the best and quickest chance to establish peace. Which in turn, saves more innocent lives on both sides.

Both sides are murdering, and no long convoluted arguments is going to change that fact.

The question for the rest of the world should be, why are we funding it? It goes no where, changes nothing and by our actions we accept and justify murder.

That is not a constructive response. You've provided no substantiation to your argument other than saying something is so just because you think it is, when there is overwhelming evidence that states otherwise.

Please spell out for me how killing this Hamas leader is a bad thing and why it will hurt the either the Israeli or Palestinian cause in forming some type of true peace plan.

If someone with a gun breaks into my house and I try to shoot him, but miss and shoot my neighbor, is that murder? Your stance on this issue appears to suggest it is. It ignores the fact that I have a right to defend me and my family, and that the shooting would have never occurred had the guy not broken into my house. This analogy is no different from the daily life of many Jews.

Please construct an argument based on facts instead of repeating common rants.

I think the Israelis are pushing the rabid anti-Jewish factions into a war to bring them into the open and destroy their leadership and decimate their capability. I hope they succeed.

True--but how many others who weren't preaching (or planning another suicide attact) before are doing so now? I'm not necessarily against Israel taking these sorts of actions, but I do question whether or not they're productive. The question, to me, is: Is Hamas leadership the problem in the peace process, and, if so, will killing the leader solve that problem? I'm not even sure there's sufficient evidence for the first part of that question, much less the second. I think a good case can be made that the real problem, as stated by several here, is that both sides seem content to continue in their current tit-for-tat destructive mode. This isn't going to go anywhere unless someone stops that cycle. Israel must be assuming that cutting the head off the snake will in fact lead to the cycle being broken--but I'm not sure that will be the case.



I second the motion for some documentation here. I think there is a big misconception about the US's level of support for Israel's activities in this regard. It's certainly not as if the Israeli's propose a plan of action, and then come to us for approval and funding for the action. It's kind of like if you have a friend who does certain things that annoy you or cause you problems--they're still your friend even if you don't approve of those activities, but it doesn't mean you approve or support those activities in any way.

I just wanted to add something I found and think that this document CLEARLY shows the TRUE nature of Hamas and it's founder...

This is DIRECTLY from the Hamas Charter written and signed by Yassin:



http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm

And don't forget...


Oooops...wait. That's the 1964 PLO Charter - three years before the 6 day war.

But what exactly is killing their leader going to do to improve the peace process?

Because CLEARLY Hamas is a stumbling block, a hindrance in the peace process. They're a TERRORIST organization, bent on the destruction of Israel.

So is Zionism colonists.
From Washington Report on Middle East Affair


There is nothing being done about them. They burn down Palestinian orchard, and not because of some fungus, with the protection of the IDF. The divert water from Palestinian villages leaving them dehydrated, while they fill their swimming pools and water their green lawns in the middle of a desert, again under the protection of the IDF.

Yes, hold Israel to the same standards that we hold everyone else to. Which means that we should currently be at war with them, but that's for another time.

There is something bigger going on here in regards to are relationship to Israel. I am no conspiracy buff, but one must have the feeling that we are not being told everything. To think that Americans condone the demolition of houses, the occupation of towns, and the assassination of people that disagree is asinine. Yet we allow Israel to get away with it constantly. I want a President that will stand up to Israel as well as Palestine, and if need be, go in there and move the border back to where it belongs according to the UN. Israel is similar to a growing yet spoiled child, and it needs to be disciplined. It needs to be spanked. It can not be allowed to remain a bully in that part of the world. That's our job right? j/k

Think of how us as Americans would be viewed in the world if we simply had the guts to do what is right. Place as much pressure on Israel and their war machine as we do on the suicidal-rock throwers of Palestine. Otherwise, there will be no peace until the last man/woman/child, falls.

BULLY?!

Israel has one of the smallest land masses and is surrounded by people who would rather see them exterminated. If it weren't for the US's help, Israel would have been decimated years ago by Egypt, Lybia, Iraq and Palestine.

Calling Israel a bully is like calling the nerdy kid in class the bully for standing up for himself!

When the Jews started to migrate to Israel the land they cultivated was marshy and untilled. The Jews planted the orchards. The Jews replensihed the soil. You cannot disarm Israel unlesss you disarm their arab neighbors the Arab League as they are the ones that force Israel to maintain its arsenal. The Israelis stopped restricted water production following the massive droughts in the 80's and because of the ancientness of certain Palestinian wells that had saline seepage. There has been mediated water distribution conferences of which Israel has followed.

To think that the US believes another soverign nation has the right to defend itself against terrorism is what angers other nations.

I highly doubt Canada, Britain, France, Germany, Denmark. the Netherlands or any other western style deomcracy would allow a known killer to walk or roll the streets but we expect the Israelis to? Ahmed Yassin is the equivalent of a politically powerful Charles Manson.

Israel a bully??? They are facing 50-1 odds. How is a nation of like 4.5 million Jews surrounded by war threatening Israeli hating muslims numbering well over 100 million a regional bully?

The US cannot stop the alliance with Israel because the instant we do the Arab League will seize it. This is the same reason we arm Taiwan because if we didnt China wouldnt think twice about invading and subdoing it.

You have absolutely no idea how powerful we have made their military. The bully walks alone amonst the helpless and flexes his muscles at every opportunity. Yes, Israel is a bully. They answer to nobody, not even the UN. The have disregard for international law. They use sheer force to intimidate its neighbors. That my friend is defined as a bully.

i do not think that this will help bring peace to the area. au contraire, i feel that it will further enrage the palestinians and cause them to undergo higher-scale attacks on Israel. if a beloved leader dies, using the George Washington analogy, i think that the people will rally around him and become even more dangerous.
personally, on the one hand, i was glad to see him killed because he was the organizer of a huge terrorist organization. however, i just have an uneasy feeling that this will cause much more violence in the immediate future.

How powerful? God forbid the evil Jews can defend themselves.

I'm sorry, I'm not going to apologize for what we've done to help Israel. I'm not. Infact, I'm happy we have done all we can to help them... BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE WILL. And if my race were considered "demons" and half the planet wanted me eradicated and others said that my race killed their god and that we weren't entitled to our own nation and that we're sub human and that Hitler didn't finish the job....or heck, the Holocaust didn't even exist... well to be honest, I'd have a chip on my shoulder too.

And your problem with that lies where? Sounds like a solution not a problem.

Flexes muscles at every opportunity?

It has nothing to do with Jewish mommies and their babies getting blown up into bite sized chunks of body parts?

Please cite your sources where Israel has unilaterally - without provocation or necessity - went into Palestinian (or any other place for that matter) territories and start killing people.

If you're going to make the bully argument, it's time for you to prove it.

If so many people are disgruntled at Israel then why hasn't teamed up and invaded. Don't give me that Holocaust doesn't have an effect on this. Ever since then they have been using it to guilt us. Don't think so? Then why have we given them over 90 billion dollars? And no one thinks they are sub human. They themselves think they are above everyone else and that is what entitles them to the land that the Palestinians currently live on. Don't believe me, type in "God's chosen people" into yahoo and see what you get. If someone came in a stole all of my land, water, shut down economic centers and schools, killed all resistance, refuse to allow me to build a house on my own land I would definitely have more then just a chip on my shoulder.
There is a line between defense and offense. An occupation is clearly an offensive vatic. A seige is definitely and offensive tactic. Preemptive attacks are borderline. Moving in on land that you occupy is not only and offensive tactic, but also against the geneva conventions. If they had not violated the god given right of the Palestinians in the first place they would definitely would not have everyone trying to contain them.

Uhhhh....excuse me???

Ever hear of 1967? What started the six day war?

When all the Arab nations did EXACTLY what you seem to consider absurd.

First off the land the Palestinians live on wasn't even theirs back in 1948, it was the UK's and they could do with as they wished. After the Holocaust, (which by the way, is the SINGLE most tragic event of the 20th century and to not acknowledge the damage it did to the Jewish race and culture obvioulsy says something) where were the Jews to go? Back to the nations that kicked them out and sent them to concentration camps? To the US? Or to THEIR homeland, which by the grace of God was under the control of the UK who understood and was sensitive to the plight of the Jews. It's not like the Jews just invaded and kicked everyone out. They TRIED to coexist, but NONE of the muslim nations were going to have it. HATRED for the Jews is the ideology of the muslim extremist. Heck, it's even written in the Koran. Hatred for any other religion than theirs.

And by the way, I'm Christian and even I acknowledge the Jews as the Children of God. It's written in the Bible. It's also written in the Bible that God told Moses that the land of Israel was the Jews. And one last thing, it also says in the Bible that those who befriend God's people will be blessed...

God help the USA if we ever turn our back on Israel.

So yet again God is responsible for the death of all these innocent Arabs which now have been displaced because a book written thousands of years ago said it was so. I acknowledge the holocaust took place, but if you think that gives them the right to murder the Palestinians then we disagree. If you think that it was the jews land then your are mistaken. Here's some info written by jews about the current situation.
PUBLISHED BY JEWS FOR JUSTICE IN THE MIDDLE EAST
Tell me, can you find a source by arabs that says they are totally in the wrong in this conflict. Why can I find so many Jews who do not tolerate the actions of the Israeli government, but you will have trouble finding arab saying that this is the Jewish homeland.

If you wanted to get technical, the Palestinians were not the original inhabitants of the area. The word Palestine is a derivative of the name Philistine. The Philistines originally came from the area of Asia Minor and moved their way down in a series of migrations through Cyprus into southern Canaan about 1200 BC.

But here's the deal. I have no problem with the Palestinians having a home of their own. I support them in that sense. And many Palestinians are not malicious towards Israel. But there are those that utilize violence and brainwash the population that it's all or nothing. And since John Q. Mohammed doesn't speek out, it's become their platform, all... or nothing...

And I am all for the Israelis protecting themselves. They are surrounded by many who wish they disappeared. But there are times when Israel acts way too clumsy in their acts of defense. In now way is a missle strike on an apartment complex where they kill a known terrorist, but also kill 11 Palestinian children, acceptable.

The only way for there to be a peaceful resolution is for a new generation, free from the lessons of how to strap yourself with a bomb, to speak out against agression, whether it be Palestinian or Israeli. Both sides must be willing to come to a compromise and be willing to accept the terms. It sounds a bit altruistic, but in no way is the US or anybody else solve the problem. This is going to have to be resolved by those two, alone.

Dayton Rocker



Yes. Its called an opinion.




I did'nt say it was a bad thing. I'm glad they killed him.

That does'nt change why they killed him though. This old man had been around for decades. Why kill him now?

Perhaps because now, Israel can do this and still hold onto its main source of weapons aid...




Your example is flawed because it is based in American norms. In Europe, civil society does not allow people to own tools designed for murder and so, shooting your neighbour, even by accident would be murder.




Are you going to accept any facts I post?

It is a fact that Israel murders people. It uses helicopter borne rockets to assassinate old men in wheel chairs knowing full well that bystanders will also be killed.

By any civilised morality, using an area effect weapon to kill a single person in a crowd is murder. In fact, simply killing some one without a trial is also murder. This old man was murdered because he perceived to be a terrorist.

Was he granted a trial? Was he found guilty? Or was he simply blown away on the whim of Ariel Sharon


Billy Jean



Israel is perceived to have four hundred nuclear weapons. See the link below for further details.




So, are you saying two wrongs actually do make a right?

In point of fact, it was not America which made Israel strong. It was France. As odd as that may sound, it is true. It was France who built Israel's nuclear weapons facilities, which in turn gave Israel the political leverage it needed to force America to support Israel. Up until Israel had its own nuclear arsenal, America's support was luke warm at best.

Please feel free to read this linked article to better understand my point;

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cpc-pubs/farr.htm

When did I ever suggest that God was responsible for the death of INNOCENT Palestinians? No where. It's unfortunate when innocent people get caught in the middle of conflicts and violence. It's not the average Palestinian's fault that their government and religious leaders are extremists and terrorists. I would love to see the Palestinians and Israelis live in peace and coexist. But it's pretty hard when one side is constantly fed hate-filled propaganda and who glorifies the martyring of 14 year old boys.

As long as the Palestinians continue to use terrorist tactics to upset the peace process there will NEVER be peace there. And as long as TERRORISTS AND EXTREMISTS are running Palestine and continuing to use their citizens as bombs with legs, their will never be peace. I feel horrible that the average Palestinian is living in the conditions brought on by their leaders because of their hatred for the Israelis. I think Sharon has the right idea, eliminate Hamas and the terrorists who are bringing nothing but death and violence to both the Israelis AND the Palestinians.

But unfortunately, the Palestinians are so brainwashed by these extremists into thinking that Hamas is some great spiritual entity with their best interests in mind., when in fact they are no better than Al Queda.

I see absolutely, positively not an iota of good coming from this assassination. There is no shortage of Palestinians angry at Israel - and things will continue just as before. The only difference will be the buttload of ammunition Israel has given Hamas to continue its mission. Then what? They kill that leader? Okay. Hamas appoints another one. They get assassinated. Another one is appointed. So on, so on.
This is a positively idiotic approach to the ultimate goal of peace. Why doesn't any Israeli leader come up with the brilliant idea of attacking the problem at it's source - the anger Palestinians have towards Israel - instead of attacking the method some use to vent that frustration?
Oops, here I go again, making too much sense...

You cannot say that your god gives land to a group of people and expect other people of another religion to just get up and move.


Like your religion which divides everyone into two groups, the saved and the damned heathens. Your religion as killed millions of people from the Jews, to the native Americans, too the Hindus of India today.


How are there leaders effecting their living conditions? How many houses, orchards, and water lines has the Palestinians destroyed? On either side? 1 houses destroyed by Palestinians, Israel has destroyed 2202 houses from 9/2000-6/2002. This is before the the tunnel searching in Rafah which is almost completely leveled.


You also forgot his ideas of bringing in more jews where the Palestinians want to make their own state, building a large wall that further inflames the situation, and ignoring more agreements, resolutions, and international laws.




Gandhi:


It was the plans of the Zionists to kick everyone out in the first place. With 90% of the people against Zionism, they were not given a voice, denied the right to self determination, and the right to bear arms.
From Bitter Harvest:

Rev_DelFuego,

Just because I say that God gave the land to them is NOT the same as God being responsible for one man killing another man. The Israelis have never said "God told us to kill the Palestinians." And if they have said that, they are wrong.




Why not? We did it the the Native Americans. It's happened all throughout history. One nation conquers another or bombards them with a new gene pool. This is nothing different. The ONLY thing that was different, is that the UN along with the UK and the US sanctioned the state of Israel after WW2. It's the Palestinians and the Muslims of the region who have a problem with it... tough. The Israelis have every right to be there.



Gotta love Christian bashers....

As I have said NUMEROUS times in NUMEROUS threads: I'm not going to defend the actions of so called Christians who do despicable things in the name of Jesus Christ. Just like Muslim extremists who murder innocent people, there are factions of religions and those in power who are not living by the faith they claim to be representing.


You know Rev, you keep repeating yourself about these stupid orchards, when infact it has already been stated that:



But you wish to ignore the fact that the Jews have done SO MUCH to improve the living conditions AND the economy in the region. I'm sorry, but I don't take much stock about what you say about these orchards being destroyed. It's insignificant compared to the damage of life that Hamas, Hesbula and the PLO have caused.

And as far as the "evil Zionists" having some "master plan" of retaking Israel, well, yeah, I'm sure the Jews have dreamed about going back to their homeland for 2,000 years, especially when it's prophecized about in the Bible.

The Israelis aren't perfect and their trying to make the best out of a bad situation. But I agree with them, terrorists can't be tolerated any more and ACTION needs to be taken to thwart Hamas. The US is doing it to Al Queda... and what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Well it dosn't seem like it would help,but that might just be me.

That's an excellent point, which I think goes to the heart of the debate in Ireland, in the Israeli/Palestine conflict, and in the wider "War" on terrorism.

The British government assassinated IRA leaders from time to time, and occasionally they killed innocent peopleeither in error or as an act of policy (the infamous "Death on the Rock" assassinations in Gibraltar is an example of one; "Bloody Snday" is an example of the other). The IRA assassinated prominent British leaders also (the attempt on the life of the Prime Minister in the Brighton Grand Hotel attack; the murder of Lord Mountbatten).

And they use law enforcement to capture, try, and imprison specific people responsible for specific attacks - in some cases, they imprisoned the wrong people.

But the bombs only stopped when the assassination and state murders stopped, AND both sides sat down around a negotiating table. Legal recourse against specific attacks hasn't stopped - terrorism is still illegal. However, the peace process in Ireland has finally (after only, ooh, a thousand years or so of conflict) learned to distinguish between the crimality of acts and the reasonableness of ideas. It is not illegal to want to bomb the British back to Britain. It is only illegal to do it, or plan to do it.

THAT is the approach that will work in Israel. THAT is the approach that will work with Islamci extremism. Given America's pivotal role in instigating the Northern Ireland peace process, I do not understand why it cannot see that unquestioning support for Israel under all circumstances, no matter what it does, is in any way constructive. I can certainly see that it might make you feel better, but it cannot, surely, be said to be constructive of peace in the region?

Plus, our recently deceased paraplegic friend was, until very recently, a guest of the Israeli government. Does their respect for the rights of prisoners extend so much further than their respect for the rights of free men that they could just deny him access to the outside world while he was in custody, effectively silencing him? After all, the only threat he posed was one of words - how many paraplegic can actually shoot or blow up anything themselves?

It seems to me that America's blind spot on this issue extends even to the ditching of your much-cherished admiration for the right to unrestricted freedom of speech. This man COULD only speak his hatred of Israel - it was for others to act on it. If he was an American citizen, you would be manning the barricades on his behalf, not on that of his murderers (and what else was it?) for heaven's sake!

For the record, I do not support Palenstinians and I am not anti-Israeli or anti-semitic or anti-American. I do not support terrorism, either, and issuing an order to undrlings to shoot a missile from a helicopter into a crowd of people, one of whom is someone who you might conceivably want to kill, then going on television and gloating about it, seems to me not so very different from issuing an order to underlings to fly aeroplanes into tall buildings in a country you don't like. Why condemn one and support the other?edited to add that there is clearly a difference in scale, though not, I believe, much difference of principle

THAT is the approach that will work in Israel. THAT is the approach that will work with Islamci extremism. Given America's pivotal role in instigating the Northern Ireland peace process, I do not understand why it cannot see that unquestioning support for Israel under all circumstances, no matter what it does, is in any way constructive. I can certainly see that it might make you feel better, but it cannot, surely, be said to be constructive of peace in the region?

This is the telling statement that divided the Clinton administration vs the GW regime-

Clinton, as you know, was instrumental in the IRA peace- and was very nearly successful in Isreal as well, in fact, coming closer to real peace than any president before him, had he another 4 years, or Gore had been president and continued his strategy, I think it is very likely we would at least be closer.

Sharon and GW are the biggest obstacles to peace in the middle east, not a blind, quadra palegic cleric!

IMO, there will never be peace so long as the extremists on either side, who don't want peace, are permitted to interrupt the peace process with their terrorist acts.

Arafat is another problem which Sharon and President Bush don't want seated at the head of the table during peace negotiations. Can't say as I blame them as it is seldom productive to negotiate with a terrorist-or a leader beholden to terrorists- who frequently agrees there should be peace, but just as frequently fails to back up his words with deeds. How many more U. S. presidents, Israeli leaders, leaders from ally countries, and newly appointed Palestinian Prime Ministers acting in Arafat's behalf only to quit, will it take before PEACE becomes a reality? IMO, we shouldn't expect anything different to occur unless those involved are willing to do something different from what they have already tried.

Guess who's coming to the Texas ranch for dinner?

(Pardon me if I come off a litlle abrasive, but) I love it when those from outside the US come off as having a master's degree in American Government. (Not saying I have one either...)

Yes, the first amendment to our Constitution states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Now if one bothered to read a little further, the ninth amendment states:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

In other words, you can't yell fire in a crowded theatre which incites a stampede and causes the deaths of many, and get away with it because you have the right to freedom of speech.

8th Grade Government class folks.

Now that was just a response to Julians remark about how we'd barricade the jerk who would yell fire. I hate to tell you, that's not how it works. I don't know how Israel's version of our constitution works, and if anyone does, fill me in, but imagine this scenario for a second.

You and I are neighbors. One day, I get all the people on my side of the street in front of my house, and I tell them that you and your family are this, that, and the other thing and need to die. I do it so well that they actually try to do just that. Day after day, I incite the mob. Again and again. The mob tries harder. Again and again.

Now it's years later, you and your family have had enough. Now, it becomes clear that my inciting the mob and the violence against your family has a direct link. What's the rationale that pops in. Eliminate the one who is inciting the violence, and it just might stop. It's a chance that you're willing to take. So, I ask you. Do you pull the trigger?

People these days have lost the insight to the power of words. You'd think something like 1930's Nazi Germany, Jonestown, or 9-11 would remind those who would forget. And if you can't see the connections between the three, this is it.

They were places and times where violence on a massive scale was launched because someone said something. Someone said something and many of those that listened, believed it.

You know, Steven Hawking can't do much of anything these days. But his thoughts, his ideas, when transfered to a medium in which we can see and understand, fill us with such wonder as to go out and follow his footsteps, if only for a moment.

You could eliminate every single person who has the intent of strapping C4 to the body and going into a crowded place. But as long as there is someone to convince those who don't yet have that intent, there will always be soneone who will listen. And, God forbid in this case, listen well.

Well you left a lot out of the scenario. Like the side the man is rallying against is slowly building things on the mobs property. The fact that he obtained his property by scaring the current inhabitants off with violence, and refused to let them return. Then the city council (United States) is giving them money to buy a massive amount of weapons to defend the house he's squatting in. Now this squatter is using his massive arsenal to get rid of the remaining members of the neighborhood by making their life intolerable by building walls on and around their property which doesn't allow them to go to work or school, destroying their gardens, cutting off their water, and demolishing their houses.
The point is, that even if you kill the person who is pointing all of this out, it's not like everyone else can't see what is happening. By killing him, it just gives the mob something else to rally for.

I left nothing out of the scenario because of situations like this, in which someone (*ah-Rev. Del Fuego-em*) would distort it and fill it with a million x-factors and completely obliterate the message behind it.

The Israelis and the Palestinians live side by side.

The neighbors.

The one across the street inciting the mob.

Yassin.

The mob.

Hamas et al.

The family.

Israel.

No matter what the reasons that the neighbor incited the mob with were, the fact of the matter is the family at one point has to defend itself. Right or wrong, Israel has the right to defend itself. Plain and simple.

Now we could talk about who's the occupier. Who's the agressor. Who was there first, etc. But the issue at hand is whether this was an appropriate act of defense. You don't need to throw in all that other stuff. If you were a member or sympathizer of Hamas, you'd have to be a complete idiot not to see this coming.

Every action causes a reaction.

Action: Yassin tells Palestinians to kill Jews.

Reaction: Palestinain suicide bomber murders many.

Action: Palestinain suicide bomber murders many.

Reaction: Israel cracks down on violent militants.

In my scenario:

Action: Neighbor incites violence.

Reaction: Other neighbors try to kill the family.

Action: Other neighbors try to kill the family.

Reaction: Family decides to remove man who incites violence.

You would do the same. Whether you were an Israeli or Palestinian.