Overland,
Although I greatly appreciate your sentiment and deferal to those that question the policy as a lies, I dont think lying stands as reason for the offense many people feel.

This is very basic. WMD, iminent threat, were the reasons we sent soldiers into WAR, and the reason not only many are dead on both sides, but many more are maimed for life, both psychologically and physically. Those WMD have not shown up, and the Admin is to blame for that, whether they lied or not. As Commander in Chief, the President is still responsable for sending those soldiers to war, on a faulty premise, regardless if there were lies, or 'dodgy intel'. The President has not yet stood before ANYONE, and taken responsability for any of the discrepancies in the official story, yet he can make jokes about it?

To make a joke of the lost WMD, for which too many have sacrificed is tacky at least, and downright thoughtless in its extreme.

The most callous believe that Leno and Letterman are the same as Bush, that they ALL can make jokes about the lack of finding of WMD. That would mean that Bush is on the level of a talk show host. Although the Vice President appeared, making inflamitory and later refuted claims on the Rush Limbaugh Show, mostly, the Presidency and admin is held to a higher standard.

Some have even quoted Saturday Night Live, as evidence that Bush is right in line with that ilk, 'comedians' who can poke fun, then so can the President of the United States. Ill admit , hes comedic, but some things should be sacred. People are dying on his Word, I reiterate, the Presidents WORD, they are risking their lives for a cause, a threat to the USA based upon a WMD claim.

When comedians, talk show hosts, poke fun at not finding WMD or anything else, they are striking a blow at the government for its faults and misdeeds, bringing up discrepancies, asking the public to think, confronting common held beliefs, in jest. Surely the President did not mean the same? If so, we have many questions to ask ourselves about this callous attitude and disregard for those STILL in Iraq. We have to take a good look at the Bush smiling face, happy that 'he hit the Trifecta with 911' and ask ourselves, why are they joking about this?
No matter how you look at it, it was rude and scurrilous.

My heart bleeds for our poor war President.

I too am tired of the whining. Bush either has the biggest victim mentality I've ever seen or he refuses to accept any criticism based on it's merits. No matter what the charge or who makes it the answer is always the same; he's a victim of partisanship. O'neill and Clark are raving leftist hate mongers working for the other party too aren't they? It's starting to look pathetic.

But back on topic...apparently, Bush's sense of humor has always been pretty crass and unfunny.

This from his Letterman appearance in March of 2000

The only thing that's changed seems to be America's sense of humor. Unless those booing in the audience were leftist hate mongering partisans too.

It seems that Bush's speech writer really screwed up on "where are the wmds".

For a man in his position to joke about a subject that sent our soliders to invade Iraq and have approximately 590 killed and over 3,000 wounded and probably never be the same again, is unexcusable.

Then again I hope it has shown the American public what kind of UNCOMPASSIONATE president we have. Maybe more will finally see the truth and vote him out this November.

Me: "And the left has seized this issue and, as ever, they will beat it to death. Ten years from now they will find new ways to introduce it and whine about it."

I rest my case.

Welcome to 2004. The WMD "debate" is now a non-issue and has been for some time. I hope everyone can get over it, some how, and get on to today's relevant issues.

DIANE SAWYER: But stated as a hard fact, that there were weapons of mass destruction as opposed to the possibility that he could move to acquire those weapons still —
PRESIDENT BUSH: So what's the difference?
Diane Sawyer Interviews President Bush.
12/16/2003

Already, the Kay Report identified dozens of weapons of mass destruction-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations.
George W. Bush, President
State of the Union Address - 2004
1/20/2004

So much for a non-issue that has been for some time.

The fact is, this administration still insists that the weapons will be found there. By the way, Weatherman, it's hardly been ten years. It's only been one, and our troops are still there, in case you hadn't noticed.

On the other hand, Clinton has been gone for years now. How long is Bush and Company going to keep blaming their failures on him?

You're right that we should move on to today's more relevant issues. It's a shame that Bush won't let that happen, however, because his only real "success" so far has been the war in Iraq. But even that is becoming more and more suspect in the minds of Americans.

I've tried, and I can't seem to get worked up over this non-issue. Everyone has a right to be offended, but nobody has a right not to be offended.
This is all just a replay of the same political battle we've seen since, well, the beginning of politics.
The Bush haters see this as political ammo, and all barrels are firing in hopes of moving the front lines in their favor.
The Bush lovers seize upon the reaction of the Dem's, and poo-poo it in hopes of swaying undecideds.

I wasn't offended, but I can see how some may be. Same old political gamesmanship from both sides.

I thought the jokes were hilarious. Especially the Kerry crack. They were not innappropriate. As one poster mentioned, the WH correspondents dinner is the place and time for enjoying one's self and relaxing. I mean, to those who saw the slides of the jokes, tell me you didn't laugh. I think if Kerry or 'someone in his campaign' is mad at the jokes (or the one about Kerry in particular) they need to get over it. I mean, it's not like he said off-mic that Kerry and his friends were a bunch of the most rotten liars he knows. I mean... it's been done.

Look at it this way! Have you ever seen Kerry smile without looking like a corpse? Have you ever heard Kerry to say anything that was self-deprecating? Anything that wasn't pontifical?

Politics and personal issues regarding Vietnam aside, this is just not a guy I would really like to know personally and hang out with! Anyone feel differently at a "personal" level? If so, why?

Maybe this should be a new thread! Is John Kerry likable? Perhaps someone on the left that really likes the guy personally should start it.

Well if you ever have a Lord of the Rings themed party, Kerry could always play the part of the 'Ents'.

I watched CSPAN today and it had the full episode of a Dick Cavett show with John Kerry from June of 1971. All I kept thinking was that if the same guy on that show was the one running for President right now I would sing his praises and defend his character.

Truth is he's not the same guy. He's more like Bush than I am comfortable with.

This isn't a personality contest to figure out who you'd invite over to watch football or drink some brews. It's about who is more fit to run our country. I wish I could say I liked either man personally but I can't.

If they were running to be my best friend I wouldn't bother to vote...but if they are running for President of America I'll take someone who pontificates rather than one who put's his foot in his mouth every time he speaks in public.

Unfortunately, if you are to believe the pundits and campaign professionals, likability is a huge, if not the the most important, factor for most American voters. When decisions are made, as they often seem to be, on a 60 second media soundbite or TV campaign ad it's got to be important.

This is not to say that Bush is likable to the elites of the northeast and the left coast but imho he's better than a wind-up toy like Gore or a corpse like Kerry.

In most peoples memories Clinton and Reagan were the best in this regard IMO. Of course Clinton lost a lot of his likability by "really" lying.

If you liked Kerry on the Cavett show you're not a Vietnam veteran I can personally assure you!

After all. American voters are not all political junkies like the members of AD!

A non-issue? Not for me. I have a son in the Army National Guard in Kuwait, and we have no idea when he will be coming home.



No, Bush is not a wind-up toy or a corpse--he's more like Howdy Doody sitting on Cheney's lap with Cheney's hand up his back. I prefer the "corpse" who snow boards and wind sails, and who's a damn sight more articulate than the puppet.

As far as the crass humor goes, what did people expect? As I have opined before, George W. Bush is well-insulated from the concerns and opinions of the general public. His carefully-orchestrated campaigning takes place with groups of pre-screened people, dissenters are kept far away. He talks about jobs to folks in Ohio who are employed, not to those at the unemployment office. His message is geared to the "haves;" the "have-nots" are characterized as malcontents (which many of them, I am sure, have become at this point).

Jay Leno's jokes and sketches have been un-funny for some time; Letterman's aren't much better, either. I find all of them distasteful.

George W's humor, I believe, is probably true to the way he feels. That's not all bad. I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch for what he said at some dinner. My panties have been in a bunch since March of 2003--the Iraq War and the pretense he used to start it I find far more offensive than his little "joke."

No I'm not a Vietnam Vet. My father is...I was just a victim of it's aftermath. The war in Iraq is very similar to Vietnam and Kerry is very different from the guy he was then.

That, if nothing else, should please at least you if he wins. I'll just be pleased to be rid of Bush, Rice, Rummy, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Feith, and that awful guy they have in the State Department whose name escapes me (Fat, overbearing guy with a beard) among quite a few others in this Administration.

Anyway that's off topic. Sorry.

Letterman has a regular feature, in which he shows George W. Bush trying to be funny. He always goes on to explain that he and his staff found nothing funny, and that they think GWB lacks any real sense of humor.

CNN ran a picture of this "Bush Joke of the day." and canned the story before it looped.

The jury will be out a few moments, but as he has a Republican majority in both houses, I'm predicting the probable jury finding: "This joke was completely inappropriate, but fortunately not grounds for impeachment."

Oh, I'm sure Bush and his supporters would like it to be a non-issue, but it very much is an issue for Americans to consider. I (and I'm sure a lot of other Americans) would like to know exactly what went wrong with the intelligence that led to the war, or if Bush misrepresented that intelligence to advance his personal agenda. Either way, it is still very much an issue that has to be dealt with.

Bush joking about it in this manner, while still claiming it as his reason for war is obscene to me and a lot of other people. It doesn't surprise me that he made the joke, and it doesn't surprise me that many of his supporters see nothing wrong with it. It does surprise that many of them do not seem to understand why so many people are offended and find his 'joke' distasteful.




Then perhaps he shouldn't joke about anything. Call me crazy, but as the leader of our nation, he shouldn't be joking about all of his shortcomings out of one side of his mouth and touting his leadership abilities in the same areas out of the other side.




I don't look to Tina Fey, David Letterman, Jay Leno, et al. for leadership. They are not the President. Bush, because of an office he chose to pursue, is held to a higher standard. If a bunch of college kids moon me on my way to work, I might think it's funny. If Bush moons me on my way to work, I question his decision making (a key ingredient to a good President), and I would find nothing humorous about it.

It is my opinion that Bush basically mooned our nation with his off hand comment about something so serious.

Paladin Elspeth: "A non-issue? Not for me. I have a son in the Army National Guard in Kuwait, and we have no idea when he will be coming home."

Let me say I hope your son returns home after his duty to our country safe and sound. We citizens of this great country appreciate very much his every sacrifice. I also want to say that I assume he is an adult and chose to enlist and serve. So please don't demean him (or us) by using him as a crutch. By the way, I am a veteran too, who chose to enlist and serve.

And speaking generally I find people who use spurious TV comics as reference points for their arguments here hard to give any credibility to. These comics are paid enormous salaries to provide a return to producers and sponsors, and they will use any fodder they can get their hands on to do this, in fact they compete for fodder (aka "guests"). I am very concerned about a shallow and media-fixated electorate who may cast a vote for President based on a joke seen on Leno or Letterman, presumably a vote cast in between episodes of "Survivor" and some pop idol show.

Although the President has always been fair game for pundits (there was an entire comedy troupe created to mock JFK's nasally New England twang) the campaign against Bush has been particularly vicious and unrelenting, and promoted at every turn by leftists and their dupes.

Topic for another thread. However, the right can claim they don't get "vicious and unrelenting, and promoted at every turn by their [rightist] dupes"?

Get real.

I'm sort of sorry your boy is looking more and more like a jerk. Oh well.

We leftist dupes knew that many moons ago. Guess I can put it behind me and go onward to what promises to be one of the most embarrassing campaigns in GOP history. I can hardly wait for GWB to be debating Kerry.

The shrillness of the right in this debate is telling. Dang, money might not do it this time around!



So I take it that your son(s) or daughter(s) are over in Iraq now, and therefore you can dismiss PE's feelings. I also take this as dismissing any valid criticism of the motivations to use our troops in Iraq.

When did the military coup happen? It went right past me.

Oops, better shut up. What right do I have? None.

Since your post (above) to me is a personal attack, I am not going to give it any response beyond calling it what it is and then dismissing it.

Telling a concerned parent they are using their child (who was put in harms way by the man you are defending) to stop using the child as a crutch seems a bit crass. You defend the President joking about his motivation for the war. Then you tell a mother to quit using her soldier child that has been sent to battle as a crutch, as it demeans him (and you). Nevermind that her child is in danger because of Bush's decision, which he now sees so minor that he is willing to joke about it for all the world to see. Bush may not be as out of touch with his people as I originally thought, if these are the lengths they will go to to defend his arrogance.

This single incident is not enough to make a decision about who to vote for, but I think it goes a long way to show the character (or the lack there of) of the man currently in charge of our nation. And it's just another reason on an ever growing list of reasons I would rather have nails hammered into my eyes than vote for Bush.




LOL. He does bear a striking resemblance. Of course, Bush could have starred with Reagan in 'Bedtime for Bonzo', so let's not start attacking appearances!

For those that are interested in how the military responded to the "jokes" follow the link to WSJ Opinion Journal



Apparently only 3 negative responses out of 101.

"A crutch"? Just like WMDs are a dead issue, right?

So when does expressing your desire to want your son home safely from a trumped-up war become not okay and "a crutch," and a Commander-In-Chief using America's sons and daughters as pawns in a war based on pretense become okay?

You're a veteran. Congratulations. That's all I want for my son, too--to come back safe and sound and be a veteran, not killed or maimed for life.

I have as much right to speak of my son as you do to speak of your veteran status. So please, don't patronize me. The WMD issue will be alive as long as it remains the pretext for our invasion of Iraq.

Back on subject: Bush's humor is crass, and it was to be expected that he was going to offend someone with it.

I would much rather be stewing over a President's sex scandal than whether my kid and the kids of thousands of others will be coming back safely from a war that shouldn't have been started in the first place for the now funny phantom WMDs.

Edited to say: I would rather have my sorry carcass in harm's way than any of my children. Now call that a crutch.

Let's see, only three negative responses out of 100 solicited in an obviously right-wing, republican supportive newspaper.

I wonder if the numbers would be the same if the exact same question were to be asked in say, the New York Times, or even USA Today? Doubtful.

You are posing a hypothetical Niteguy, while offwind posted an actual response. Sorry but I am going with the actual numbers with a refenced link than a hypothetical.

This was done in poor taste and only shows how far Bush and his administration are out of touch with the general public. More of that Unifier stuff I would imagine.

Why would you attempt something along this line even if there was a remote chance you could isolate a portion of the population? Again it’s the lack of sensitivity as this guy and his administration continue to polarize like no other. Arrogance is my only explanation.

From the Republicon.orgweb site.



There’s 43% of the population that could have taken offense. Anyone driving that bus?

I knew before I even started reading this thread that many of the ‘stand by your man’ Bush supporters would be scrambling at any attempt to justify this feeble attempt at humor. Wondering why if Leno, Letterman, and Tina Fey can make fun of the situation then why can’t the President.

That speaks volumes by itself.

Then we have a board member whose son is over there right now and is understandably offended and we see more compassion:



Nice one. As long as you’re not offended then I guess that’s all that matters.

And then when anyone chooses to rightfully complain at his lack of sensitivity and in general arrogance we get the typical cry from the right that those who don’t agree with every move the President makes are just mean spirited leftist who are merely dupes.

This administration and their blind followers give me such a warm and fuzzy.

Where’s my polar fleece?

Bush Jokes at Dinner

OK...so his comedy writers get an F for this one! So, this was a invitation only function and not a public function. Let's put a realistic spin on this episode! The majority of the people who found this 10-minute slide show offensive are not fans of President Bush's to begin with. That's the bright side!

Now, I know (from past experience) that at least one member of AD is going to question me as to how I could possibly know whether the majority of those offended by the Bush Jokes at Dinner are not fans of Bush to begin with? Well, let's just take a small sample for our survey... like the plus 1,000 members of America's Debate, and I am willing to bet that the majority of those offended by the Bush Dinner Jokes are not Bush fans and don't intend to vote for him.



Let's be fair on this one....there are more than enough complaints flying and mud slinging from all sides! What is becoming more and more humorous than Bush's Dinner Jokes is that with all the really important world events going on....Bush's Dinner Jokes just may wind up being one seemingly perpetual AD thread. Now that to me is humorous!

Touche DR, and maybe you have a good point too

My guess is that a lot of people are using this as merely another incident in a long string of things demonstrating the quality of the Bush presidency. In that sense it is something somewhat relevant, but nothing to run an election on.

With that, I'll bud out for a while

No...the buck stops with the joke teller. Why is it every time Bush does something stupid everyone scrambles around to find someone else to take the blame for him? It's not just that the joke was dumb it's that the joke was offensive and he was too insensitive to realize it.


Was he so out of the loop he didn't realize CSPAN would be taping and airing it? Did he not see the TV camera?

This wasn't a Republican function...how could he have known there weren't others who were also invited who did not share his humor? David Corn comes to mind.

Wait a minute, now Sleeper. It's not permitted to ask if the answers might change, were the circumstances (or in this case the newspaper) different? You're telling me that hypothetical questions aren't allowed here?

Hmm, better tell that to offwind then:


I'm beginning to smell a double standard here....

So what exactly are you saying Desert Resident? If it's only people who don't like Bush and aren't going to vote for him that are offended, their opinion doesn't matter?

Or is it that it only matters what fans of George Bush think?

Funny thing. I thought when Bush took his oath of office he promised to represent and protect all Americans and not just those who voted for him.

How about The Champlain Channel. If you click on results or vote in the poll, you will see (at the time I am writing) that 13,950 people that responded (or 67%) voted "No. The war isn't an issue to joke about." when asked "Do you think the jokes were appropriate?".

Ah! a New Hampshire poll! The heartland of conservative thought! I'll stick to the response of guys in/or around the military. Have you wondered why the left wing media hasn't asked the guys at risk? Is it possible that they already know the answer and it doesn't fit their agenda?

Gee, who'd-a-thunk it? A right-wing conservative who discounts a poll from a left-wing source, while championing a poll from a conservative source.

Has anyone yet found a poll that isn't biased one way or the other? Say, a nationwide poll from USA Today, or another national polling service, where the results aren't skewed by the either location, or limited to certain respondents?

I'd be interested to see the results, then.

I just found out that the poll is not actually from just the site I had found it on. The same poll exists on a number of sites. It appears to be hosted by Internet Broadcasting Systems and the results are from about 60 different news sites from across the country. But I'm sure it is still simply an attack from the left wing media in an attempt to unjustly make our fearless and compassionate President look bad, so you can ignore it.

And you'll dismiss the CNN poll on the topic, too, but here it is anyway: CNN.com

Hey offwind, I'm from New Hampshire originally, and it's been a republican state as long as I can remember. Maybe you're thinking of Massachusetts.

Oh, and for everyone who has ignored me the last two times I said this - I'm military, I'm in Baghdad, I'm offended.

And I WAS seriously considering voting for Bush before this.

How long have the Democrats been campaigning to elect their nominee-six months or a year? From day one of their campaign, I have not read or heard anything positive which includes good (with the exception of a few) about Bush and every last person in his administration from his critics or those on the other side of the aisle. For that reason, why would I be surprised that a majority of the Bush haters were offended by his jokes? I am not! Yes...our Presidents represent ALL of the people whether they voted for him or not. It's just that some people are finding it difficult to be represented...can't please all of the people all of the time!




Oh yeah....like when Hillary Clinton, our former First Lady, told the infamous East Indian gasoline station owner joke....and spent the next two days apologizing. Hey, when people were calling her a racist, I gave her a free pass and said that she is not a racist and that the person writing her speech didn't catch the slur and when Hillary read it, she didn't either. Lesson learned: even our stellar politicians, including sitting NY Senator and former First Lady Hillary Clinton, can make mistakes and tell bad jokes! Surely didn't turn my world upside down for a second!

Hillary Clinton Regrets Gandhi Joke



So...do we agree...Bush and Hillary should maybe get new writers for their jokes or just don't tell any!

Funny thing, though. I recall that thread talking about Hillary's 'joke', and most people agreed that it was a stupid comment to make. And Hillary acknowledged that and apologized promptly for it. Gee, where is Bush's statement acknowledging that he made a callous 'joke', even if unintentional? And, while most of the people involved in that debate stated that her 'joke' was in poor taste and only defended her when she was labeled a racist, all I see from the rabid Republicans on this one is "Lighten up, it's only a joke".

People make stupid comments, I understand that. Why hasn't he bothered to acknolwedge he made one or apologize to those that were offended by it? I find it more troubling that 5 days after the fact, he still seems unaware that his 'joke' may have been inappropriate to a lot of people.

I did look online to see if I could find anything about him apologizing or at least acknowledging that his 'joke' could have been offensive, but I didn't find anything. If he has, and I just couldn't find it, then I would see things in a different light.

I'll write to Hillary if you write to Bush. Let's ask them both to stop trying to be funny...neither of them are any good at it anyway.

Now there is an idea we can get behind, ban politicians from telling jokes.

Danya and Slim..... For those of you who are offended by the Bush Dinner Jokes (which I admit were better left unsaid, but not offensive enough to call for his impeachment) take Cube Jockey's idea and start a petition banning politicians from telling jokes!

Now...I have bigger fish to fry and these will be my final comments on this Bush Dinner Jokes thread...no matter how tempting the oppositions' BAIT is!