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overlandsailor
QUOTE
Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.




Currently in the US in many jurisdictions we have RANDOM traffic stops to check for up to date paperwork and inspections, Intoxication, Seatbelts, drug tafficing, etc.

the 4th Amendment clearly calls for search warrants based on probable cause and supported evidence as well as a limited description of what is to be searched.

How can these random searches be considered constitutional?

Why have they not been struck down in court?
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Julian
Depends on how one reads the 4th Amendment. If probable cause and a warrant are required to carry out unreasonable searches, then a perfectly robust interpretation is that they are not required to carry out reasonable ones.

The applicability or otherwise of the Amendment therefore hinges on what is or is not unreasonable, and not on the search itself.

Plus, at least in the case of intoxication or seatbelts, most of the symptoms of legal infractions are in plain view - you can see whether or not a driver is wearing a seatbelt through the windows, and you can reasonably suspect intoxication from the way they drive. Anyone daft enough not to buckle up or to drive drunk deserves a little mild rights infringement, IMHO.
overlandsailor
QUOTE
Depends on how one reads the 4th Amendment. If probable cause and a warrant are required to carry out unreasonable searches, then a perfectly robust interpretation is that they are not required to carry out reasonable ones.


QUOTE
The applicability or otherwise of the Amendment therefore hinges on what is or is not unreasonable, and not on the search itself.


QUOTE
QUOTE
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated


QUOTE
QUOTE
and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized


If you read these two things separately, then it would appear clear that you are protected from unreasonable search, and that to obtain a search warrant (which IMHO implies a reasonable search if a warrant is issued) there must be probably cause and evidence to support the warrant.

QUOTE
Plus, at least in the case of intoxication or seatbelts, most of the symptoms of legal infractions are in plain view - you can see whether or not a driver is wearing a seatbelt through the windows, and you can reasonably suspect intoxication from the way they drive. Anyone daft enough not to buckle up or to drive drunk deserves a little mild rights infringement, IMHO.


These infractions are in plain view. However, restricting the flow of traffic and stopping vehicles to look inside is clearly intended to improve law enforcements ability to identify these problems, at the expense of all the law abiding citizens that are not violating the law. They examine every vehicle, therefore it is not a specific search.

Look at it from another perspective, using your argument. Would it be OK for law enforcement to require an unobstructed view through your homes windows so that they could walk up to your windows and peer inside to determine if anything illegal is going on? That is essentially what they are doing to motorists.

What if they started coming to everyones house demanding you produce ID and a deed or mortgage paper for the property? They do this to motorist all the time with random safety stops and the like.

EDITED TO ADD:

I think Ben Franklin said it best:

QUOTE
"A man who will give up liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security."
nebraska29
Currently in the US in many jurisdictions we have RANDOM traffic stops to check for up to date paperwork and inspections, Intoxication, Seatbelts, drug tafficing, etc.

the 4th Amendment clearly calls for search warrants based on probable cause and supported evidence as well as a limited description of what is to be searched.

How can these random searches be considered constitutional?

Why have they not been struck down in court?[/QUOTE]

Great discussion Overland, you've touched on something that has needed to be discussed for a long time. To answer your first question-they can't! The only logic that I can see is that by conducting random searches, they *might* catch someone and thus, save more lives. The tautology being: "you want to save lives don't you?" Although it is relevant in it's own way, it isn't a constiutional question, and thus, should be considered irrelevant. In regards to your second question, I would wager that most people who are pulled over at random fail to see it as a threat to their constitutional rights. They see it as something that is "for your own good" and behave like good little sheep and let the officer do his job so that they don't get a (gasp!) ticket. I haven't been pulled over at random over say-labor day weekend or anything like that, though I know it goes on. I live by a community that is notorious for conducting random on the spot checks for license, registration, and vehicle maintenance needs. They must do that when the department is low on cash.
Jaime
Excellent questions, overlandsailor!

Here in Georgia, we have these random searches also. I tried to track down the actual code section/legislation that allowed it (which usually has a section explaining why the legislation was passed) but could not find it.

I honestly don't understand the justification behind random roadblocks and tend to lean towards the side that says they are illegal for failure to provide probable cause for the search.

I also attempted to find a justification for these searches at the Georgia Governor's Office of Highway Safety. No suprise, I could not find anything along those lines. Feeling ambitious, I emailed the Director, Bob Dallas, the following email (redacting some personal info of mine):
QUOTE
Hello Mr. Dallas-
 
My name is Jaime ****.  I am a citizen of the state of Georgia. I am also the owner of an online debate forum, where we are currently debating the Constitutionality of roadblocks and random car searches.  
 
Some contend that such searches are a violation of the Constitution's 4th Amendment because they are conducted without warrant or probable cause.
 
I am aware that Georgia conducts such random roadblocks, as one was held on locally on March 11, 2004 (Here is an article from the local paper for reference: http://savannahnow.com/stories/031004/LOC_safetychecks.shtml ).  I have spent some time at the Office of Highway Safety's website, but found no references to citizen's 4th amendment rights against unreasonable searches.  
 
My questions for you, then, are - how are these laws justified in respect to our 4th amendment rights?  What is the probable cause that officers have to conduct a search on a person for merely driving their car?  What makes that search reasonable?
 
I appreciate any guidance you may offer in helping me understand how/why such searches are Constitutional.
 
Thank you for your assistance.
 
Jaime ****, COO
America's Debate, Inc.
P.O. Box 10303
Savannah, GA 31412


Not sure if I'll get a response to that, but if I do, you all will be the first to know about it. biggrin.gif
nebraska29
QUOTE(Jaime @ Apr 4 2004, 10:42 AM)
Not sure if I'll get a response to that, but if I do, you all will be the first to know about it.  biggrin.gif

Bravo Jaime!! w00t.gif Way to go! thumbsup.gif The sad thing is that most people are passive about such matters(as I elaborated on above) and won't do a thing about it. If more people took a more pro-active approach as you have done, then perhaps things would be different. us.gif Then again, maybe that's what the ACLU is there for.
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