I just watched an interesting report on the obesity in the US and decided to start a new thread dedicated to the obesity problem, esp. in the US. First some interesting facts:
Obesity and obesity related didsesases, such as diabetes, is the second leading cause of death, after cancer.
65% of adult US population is overweight, 31% of adult population in the US is obese.
60% of adult males don't get enough exercise in the US, 25% of of adult population is not active at all in their leisure time.
Economical costs of obesity adds up to $117 billion annually in direct costs (health care) and indirect costs (lost productivity).
20% of children under 18 are overweight.
With current growth trends, obesity will become leading cause of death within 10 years.
Although obesity problem in other countries of the developed world (Japan, UK, France, Russia, Germany, etc.) is now as hazardous, overweight portion of population is growing rapidly there as well.
US currrently holds the crown as the fattest country in the world. Leading overweingtchampion-city is Detroit, Michigan.

Question for debate:
What to do stop obesity epidimic? Is obesity a fault of corporation like McDonalds, Burrger King, KFC and food manufacturing industriy; or every individual is culpable of his own "sins"? What should be done to prevent early overeating habits among kids? IS the major problem in input (healthy nutrition in reasnoable amounts) or uotput (exercise, calorie-burning activities)
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Bibliography:
http://www.pbs.org/now/science/fit.html
http://www.americaonthemove.org/pdflinks/W...HealthStats.pdf
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/DS/00314.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1082739.stm

Obesity is an epidemic in this country for many reasons.
First of all, there is so much false information being "fed" to us,
by companies who want to sell us their crap. For instance, if you
watch any channel that has cartoons, the commercials are usually
for food items that have absolutely no nutritional value, and are
loaded with sugar (i.e.breakfast cereals, microwavable items, etc.)
The items that get purchased by families are those that are
convenient and easy to prepare (and usually the least healthy).

Many kids grow up on Kool-Aid, soda pop, McDonald's, etc. These foods
do not give the body the nourishment it needs, so people are constantly
hungry. Fast food chains are there to feed people quickly and inexpensively.
They know that they are dishing out fattening, un-healthy garbage, but
ultimately we cannot blame them for making us fat.

Exercise is the other missing factor in many households. People just
don't make the time to do it.

There is an excellent book that is very informative on the subject of nutrition.
It's called Diet For A New America, by John Robbins. I would highly
recommend everybody buy this book. It will inspire you.

What to do stop obesity epidemic? Is obesity a fault of corporation like McDonalds, Burger King, KFC and food manufacturing industry; or every individual is culpable of his own "sins"? What should be done to prevent early overeating habits among kids? Is the major problem in input (healthy nutrition in reasonable amounts) or output (exercise, calorie-burning activities)

Lifestyle and conditioning unless there's a medical reason. No doubt genes play a big role, but there's thick-boned and healthy. Then there's pouring-out-of-your-clothes fat folds.

I don't blame corporations trying to make a buck targeting kids. That's a copout. If there is someone at fault it's parents. They blame everything from the entertainment industry for being unable to make their kids go to bed (Southpark), to schools for promiscuity and lacking moral values. Somehow it escapes them that laying any good foundation down is their right and responsibility, not the government and businesses'. Why should the fast and junk food industries go unscathed?

My father always worked, my mother on and off. No matter how late they came home they always took the time to cook a hot meal, even if it meant having dinner later than usual. There was no weekly night out to the restaurant/fast food chain or cash for snacks at school. Money was better spent on bills and groceries. When we got a cookie, it was a rare treat, and we couldn't sit with the bag in front of the TV. We were only allowed as much as one hand could hold.

Regardless of the habits of friends we knew it wasn't acceptable. No matter how much we pleaded we didn't get our way. When an adult wanted to watch the big TV it was time to put the joystick down and run around like fools outside amusing ourselves.

We've exchanged control for convenience. Our weight isn't at the mercy of a miracle diet, a gym membership, or a drug waiting for FDA approval. It's a reflection of our overall lifestyle and values.

Coming from personal experience, it's always a tough line to tread when discussing the topic. I can't remember the last time I was ever the "right weight" for my age. Maybe back when I was 7 or 8. But since then I've always been overweight. Thankfully, I've never been completely obese.

It has to be something combined between genetics and actions. My entire family is overweight. My middle sister recently had a gastric bypass surgery and after a year, she's lost a lot of weight. For her, it wasn't what she did or didn't eat or what she did or didn't do, she was still big. She exercised, and lost some weight, but it was impossible without surgical help. Now she's looking and feeling better. Everyone else in my family attempts to get some exercise, but we are still overweight.

Most people I believe would benefit from just an increase in some type of exercise. Whenever I can, I try to run a mile. It's in no way a panacea, but getting people outside to do ANYTHING is an improvement.

No one is holding a gun to a person to eat fast foods. They are not to blame for obesity in the US.
Obeisty is I think comes from 2 factors. One is is genetic. If you come from a family that have Thyroid problems it will probably be passed to you. If that is the problem seek a Doctors help
There is medication to treat thyroid problems.
The second is people just tend to eat wrong and do not exercise.
As for kids that are not just overweight but obiest I blame the parents. They for the most part are overweight or obiest and they don't see a problem or they would of done something either for themselves or try to prevent their kids from being obese.
I know it is hard today with both parents working. Easier to just get fast food. Also another reason is what time they eat. Some don't get home till after 8 and they eat right before going to bed. There is no excercise at that time to burn off any fats, calories, carbs whatever.
So I guess my answer is no Fast Food businesses are not to blame.

Unfortunately, I don't see obesity being addressed successfully until a couple of things happen. First, I don't think it has really achieved the level of awareness it should. You don't see Jerry Lewis holding a telethon for it--everyone's aware of it, but little focus is placed on it as a problem. Second, the diet industry is certainly not one to benefit by being successful--they'd lose all their customers. So, we're constantly fed misinformation. Third, our culture and lifestyle is not well geared to reduce it. As a society, we're very fast-paced. In addition to placing a premium on 'fast-food', this life style also places a lot of stress on people, which is a great contributor to obesity and other health related problems. Fourth, doctors need to get MUCH MORE informed about nutrition. I only know a little of what I should, and I can honestly say I know much more than any doctor I've ever met. Yet having proper nutrition in probably the single best thing anyone can do for their health---hmmm, maybe it's not in the medical industry's best interests either? Finally, people themselves need to get educated about proper nutrition. Clearly, no one else out there is going to provide us with this information--so, we'll have to get it for ourselves.

I certainly don't blame the fast-food restaurants for any of this. They wouldn't sell it if we didn't keep buying it. Change our eating habits, and they'll quickly change what they put on the menu.

Sloth is the main problem, in my view, even more so than gluttony. Not as much as the dis-inclination to hard work or excercise as the dis-inclination to take the time and effort to prepare decent food. This is the key problem with average americans today - there is practically no-one in the kitchen, and definitely nobody in the garden.

The two-parent worker standard is responsible for this as well as most other family problems. Both parents need to be domestic, and one should be so full-time.

Consumerism has nearly destroyed family independence. Rampant obesity is one result; rampant divorce is another.

I am sorry but I have no feelings for people that are overweight(with the exception of people who have no control over their weight such as some genetic or health disorder).

People have more conveniences and have become a lazy population. There is no excuse and there should be no blaming of the fast food industry,etc.

My ancestors tended to be on the heavy side(genetic) but I exercise and eat reasonably. I just believe the population is in a deep deep rut of not wanting to take responsibility for their actions, no matter what they may be.

Who knows, it could be the beginning of a decline in American and its way of life!

This is my first year out of college. The main issue I've noticed about life in the real world is that I spend SO much time in the car. At college, everything was within walking distance. We probably walked over an hour a day, collectively, just going back and forth between classes, dorms, dining halls, etc. Now, if I want to walk across the street to the Kmart 200 feet away, I have to cross a roaring 4 lane highway. Let's say I wanted to walk the extra 400 feet up to the intersection to cross the street (thinking that might be safer). There are no cross walks, no crossing signals. Here, you not only deal with traffic flying in the two main directions, but you have to guess when the turn lanes will go. It's insane. I usually take my chances crossing somewhere between intersections because it's easier to keep an eye on only one direction at a time. When I was living inside of the DC beltway, I was taking the metro to work everyday. I walked a good 15 minutes to the metro stop, walked 10 minutes to FBI Headquarters, and same thing on the way home. Carrying my stuff for the day. Each day, that's about 50 minutes of walking. You don't even realize that you're getting your daily exercise, because it's something that you just have to do.

I think that with the concept of sitting in traffic 40 minutes each way per day, the prospect of making time to be active IS ridiculous. We shouldn't have to make time to be active - activity should be a part of our every day lives. Until our transportation engineers start planning cities in a more healthful way, we'll never get the level of activity that we need.

I hear this excuse remarkably often from overweight people, esp. considering what percentage of overweight population of 120 or so millions has thyroid gland disorder or some other hereditary disease (1-2% range probably, or even less). True, obesity oftetimes goes down a family line, but not for reasons of genetics. Overeating habits are passed down from generation to generation. After all, children learn from their parents ans siblings, if they will overeat and be fat, why wouldn't children do the same?
It seems to me all of you agree that lack of exercise and consumer-feeding culture is to blame. Now how should we remedy this? Pass a Prohibiton Law, banning importation, sale and consumption of fatty foods? Clog the airwaves with healthy lifestyle infomercials? Sue the hell out of McD. and BK for making people fat with their greasy hamburghers and fat-soaked french fries? Mandate engineers to design highways, roads, avenues and streets in more pedestrian-friendly fashion? Stamp labels on the ice cream, cheese cakes etc., like they currently do on cigarettes, saying what diseases you can possibly get by consuming te product? Impose luxury tax on automobiles, so the sales would drop and America would start walking again? What is the best solution/remedy?
Obesity spurt in the late 1980s, obesity trends - http://www.pbs.org/now/science/fit.html, killed more people before they outlived their lifespan than all the wars of XX century combined, so this is pretty serious. Also, obesity irrevocably leads to degradation of our nation as a whole. The problem is pretty serious.
What to do?
P.S.-http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/trend/maps/index.htm, look for PowerPoint presentation on growth of obesity in the US from 1985 to 2002.

Thyroid problems and excuses aside, some forms of medication, specifically meds addressing mental health, also push people well over their ideal weight.

We can fight obesity, and more importantly, a sedentary lifestyle, in a number of ways. One effective way may be to tie in incentives in health care costs based on some of these factors.

For example, raise taxes on "junk foods" that are proven (through documented resaerch) to be unhealthy. This can also be done with other "bad" habits such as smoking. This would bring in more money for the health care system and also encourage people not to consume unhealthy products. It would also eventually encourage manufacturers to stop making as many unhealthy products.

The other possibility is to decrease your health insurance premiums for every positive healthy habit you have. For example, if you don't smoke, your insurance goes down. If you take and exercise class, your insurance goes down, etc.

It's time to reward those who do lead a healthy lifestyle instead of punishing them by making healthy foods more expensive!

[CODE]One effective way may be to tie in incentives in health care costs based on some of these factors.
[QUOTE]

I like this idea. Much like premiums built into insurance for smoking and drinking, discounts could be included for exercising. Not sure how to police that, though. I think you'd have to go with measurable factors, such as heart rate, blood pressure, cholesterol count, etc. (you know, all the things that are already being used for life insurance purposes). Problem with 'health' indicators is often that very poor ones are chosen, such as weight or BMI (body mass index), that are poor approximations [I'm 6'1", 225 lbs -- can you tell me how 'fat' I am? These two indexes claim to be able to.]. They could go with body fat indexes, but for many the caliper methods aren't very accurate (particularly if you do exercise). The electrical measurements are much more accurate, and could be easily administered.

I think that the problem in dietary terms is less the consumption of fats in the diet and more the consumption of refined carbohydrates - how many foods can you buy (as opposed to make) that do NOT have any corn syrup or cane sugar in them? Probably not too many. The human body is well adapted to converting excess carbohydrate intake into fat - it's a big advantage to people who may facde shortages or famine at any moment, as our ancestors did.

Of course nowadays, there aren't too many shortages, so our efficiency at converting sugars to lipids leads to health problems.

A good place to start would be not to extract more taxpayers money from extra taxes on "junk" food, but to completely withdraw all agricultural subsidies that make ingredients like corn syrup such a cheap thing to bulk out processed foods with.

Another thing would be to use taxation and planning laws to encourage short-haul foodstuff production. The French have a law that forces their supermarkets to get a proportion of their foodstuffs from local sources, which mitigates for fresh produce over processed foods, and for local producers rather than foreign or distant ones (also saving on fuel costs for transportation, with the associated benefits of lower pollution, less road freight traffic, etc).

Similiarly, as has been mentioned, we should start taking urgent steps to make some car journeys less convenient than walking or cycling through pedestrianisation, one-way systems, a rethink on the way we currently completely separate business and housing in modern developments (which is only made possible by cars anyway) etc. Maybe a tax as a benefit in kind on free workplace parking spaces?

These things may not translate exactly to the USA which is, after all, a much larger place than anywhere in Europe, but it is the kind of lateral thinking that could help.

No fast food restaurant is force-feeding anyone, so I do not feel they are to “blame” for obesity.

First, an admission: I am overweight. Not grossly obese, but heavier than I should be. I was a chubby child, a chubby teenager and a chubby adult. I’m not going to go into the whole genetic thing, since most people believe that’s an excuse, but I do believe it plays a role in how easy/difficult it is to lose weight. In my early 30’s, I went on Nutrisystem and got down to my goal weight (no, I’m not going to tell you what it was!!) and was thrilled to death to wear a size 7, and sometimes, a 5. (side note: there were still a few people that told me I needed to lose weight )

As for what should be done to prevent children from overeating, there’s no one complete answer. I take responsibility for my weight gain; I went through a difficult time, and food was my “comfort.” I think this plays a role in obese kids, too. It’s a vicious circle; eating because you’re depressed, getting fat, being depressed about being fat and made fun of, gaining more weight, feeling depressed, and on and on.

Another cause imho, is that kids don’t play actively. When I was a kid, we played outside all day if the weather was nice (and in SoCal, it’s nice more often than not), and we were active and inventive in our play-we ran around, rode bikes, etc. Now, kids play on the computer, or the GameBoy, or the X-Box or whatever, watch TV, all sedentary activities. The only body part in shape on most kids is their thumbs.

When I was a kid, carbonated drinks were a once-in-a-blue-moon treat (I still remember the taste of an ice-cold Dr Pepper in 16 oz. returnable bottles…mmm), but we ate Midwestern style – well-done meat, potatoes, an overcooked vegetable with bread and butter and a cold glass of whole milk. Now, kids drink more Cokes than anything else, and a LOT of junk food. This is primarily a parental control problem. Granted, our fast-paced lifestyle makes it a royal pain to cook a healthy meal, but it would alleviate a lot of weight problems in kids that normally wouldn’t be prone to weight gain. And then there are the parents who hate to say no. I watched an interview recently on TV with a teenage boy who weighed over 400 lbs, and his mom just wanted him to “be happy”, so she kept shoveling food at him. I don’t get that.

Finally, the “fat acceptance.” I was not a huge, fat girl as a teenager (think Renee Zellweger in Bridget Jones), but I was teased unmercifully, was painfully shy and never had a date. It seems to me that attitude has changed. It’s somehow more accepted to be fat. I see girls much heavier than I was with good-looking guys and it always amazes me. And don’t get me started on the double standard for big, fat men with sexy thin girls.

I saw a story over the weekend how the American women’s size 8 has gone from a 25” waist in 1980 to 27 ½” in 2004. So, women are “fitting” into the same size without realizing they’ve gained 2 ½” in their waists!! I remember trying on a pair of pants and realizing they were hip-huggers, and thinking to myself “someone my size shouldn’t be caught DEAD in hip-huggers!! You have to be a bone rack with a flat tummy and no butt to wear those!”

My solution to obesity: be self-confident and happy, eat less, eat healthier, exercise more. Easier said than done.

And a final note (I promise): Who says women should be a size 2, anyway?! Are bones that sexy????

1. What to do stop obesity epidemic?

--- Get to the root of what causes it. It's not as simplistic as saying "hey fatso, put down the Krispy Kreme." People eat for emotional reasons and yes, biochemical.

I'll share something personal. I was thin until my 20s. I always considered that I had no self-control when I gained weight, and I hated myself for it. I would sometimes binge and almost feel ill, but couldn't stop. I was obsessed with food (and confession here, I was obsessed with it from my earliest days, but it was strictly controlled when I grew up.)

Back in 1996, I tried Phen-Fen. To my astonishment, it FIXED what was wrong with me and I had NO idea that there WAS a problem. You see, I have serotonin issues that cause other unrelated health problems. But when I took this Phen-Fen, it increased the uptake of serotonin and to my surprise, it 100% took away my cravings.

I ate like "normal people" for the first time in my life. And - the weight fell off, without dieting, without artificial exercise.

So guess what, metabolism issues may play a bigger part than you all realize.

Of course, just my luck, they took it away. I literally wept. Now I fight myself again and I lose. It was a real revelation to me to actually not obsess over food. I'd pay a lot to have that happen again.

So - the issue is quit name-calling, quit blaming and look into the mechanism of weight increase and psychological reason. That doesn't mean that we don't bear responsibility for our own actions, we do. But it means that often, we are fighting something and we've both hands tied behind our backs.

Of course, it's easier just to blame the obese. One of the few things left that is P.C. is to make fun of fat people.

Think about it. Why do so many diets fail? Because one can't diet, one must change eating habits permanently. And that is very hard, because if one's body wants a very low calorie count, is it realistic to eat cottage cheese and salad forever?

Of course, that is no excuse for eating a dozen donuts!

But my point it, it's NOT all because folks are fat, lazy slobs. The issue is much more complex that that. I sure learned that the hard way.


2. Is obesity a fault of corporation like McDonalds, Burrger King, KFC and food manufacturing industriy; or every individual is culpable of his own "sins"? What should be done to prevent early overeating habits among kids? IS the major problem in input (healthy nutrition in reasnoable amounts) or uotput (exercise, calorie-burning activities)

--No, it's not their fault. Yet it's not 100% the fault of the individual. As I said, it is a complex issue, that has genetics, metabolism, emotional behavior and personal actions. I think that people are obese for a combination of several reasons, not just because they pig out at MickeyD's.

Of course, there are some who do just that. But it would be better to find out psychological WHY people are compelled to do that and figure out how to fix THAT. (or if there are metabolic things and I'll lay any sum that there is more of that than one knows.)

I'm not an optimist. It's easier just to say "well put down that brownie" and blame the person than to address the complicated reasons. Plus - it's cheaper to blame the person than to pay to figure it out.

Metabolism is really the ONLY determining factor--this is why most diets fail. You can have all the will power you want, but if your body craves something, you will eventually give in. This is why all diets eventually fail. If you just go on a diet, first thing that happens is that your body senses a calorie depravation, and slows down the metabolism to compensate. Second, it will go into 'starvation' mode--making up for the lost calories by consuming muscle and trying to store more fat. This further slows down the metabolism. Finally, it will create cravings for those foods it thinks are missing (the very ones you're trying to avoid)--these cravings will get stronger and stronger until eventually you give in. You return to about your original weight, but without some of the previous muscle mass--ie--you're in worse shape than when you started.

Exercising, in conjunction with diet, reverses all these processes. It speeds up the metabolism, builds muscle and reduces fat, and eliminates the cravings for 'bad' food. So, this is the permanent lifestyle change that needs to be undertaken. Which, of course, is easier said than done. I'm fairly active, but not as much as I used to be. So, I've put on some weight. I know exactly how toget rid of it--but find it difficult to do on a consistent basis. The trick, I think, is that you have to add the exercising at the beginning of the day--that's the only time you're really in control of your day. Plus, it will elevate your metabolism for the entire day.

TBonz,

There are new drugs on the market, Meridia for one, that can help regulate serotonin levels. Certain classes of anti-depressants can aid you as well.

Hobbes,

While your analysis about metabolism and exercise is technically accurate, its somewhat simplistic in not viewing the larger societal issues at hand. These are far more systemic and much more difficult to address. We have become a society of convenience. I think Lesly said it best:

People will sit in their air conditioned cars waiting 5 minutes for someone to exit a parking space instead of taking the one already available 8 cars down. Perspective brought up an excellent point about the fact that we are literally driving everywhere instead of walking. Kids are being raised by nintendo and nickelodeon instead of playing outside. Its more than simply "exercise more, eat healthier".

At the root Hobbes is correct. Its a scientific equation of calories consumed vs. calories spent. Diet and exercise play a big role in that. But unless we are willing to scrutinize the society and culture that has evolved in this metropolitan/suburban culture for the last 30 years, I seriously doubt these problems will go away. And a "Jared from Subway" Telethon isn't the answer. There are cures for this disease, we just aren't looking in the right places.

Doc

PS, my points are not made without some wincing of my own as I am as much a product of them as anyone. I am overweight and I take full responsibility for what created that condition. But I also recognize the environmental factors that influenced those choices. I exercise regularly and occasionally succeed at improving my overall lifestyle. Its easy to judge (Popeye) when not experiencing those issues yourself. I'll admit that's an assumption and you are free to correct me.

What to do to stop the epidemic?

Illuminati hit on something that I think is good:
How about designing cities that don't require cars to get around?

I grew up in the suburbs. School was 3 miles away. Friends were up to 7 miles away. Grocery store 2.5 miles. Basically, you can't go anywhere without a car. Parents were more than eager to give their children cars so that not only could their 16 year old drive themselves around, but also drive the younger children around as well.
The suburbs also lead to bored teenagers... but that's another topic of debate.

When are we going to stop designing sprawl into our cities? No one get's exercise, it's bad for the environment, it's bad to spend money to get everywhere, it's bad to waste time in traffic. All so Mr and Mrs smith can raise their 2.5 kids in a gargantuan house with a .5 acre lot and a pool away from the evil "big cities."

While I believe that the design of our cities plays a large role in the amount of exercise we get, I think peronal responsiblity plays a much bigger role in the size of your spare tire. Too many people are willing to blame anyone but themselves for their shortcomings.

Doclotus,

Meridia is sixty dollars a month. Insurance doesn't cover it. That is WITH a discount from the company, without, it is one hundred dollars a month. My husband wasn't happy with that.

Pity, with insurance coverage, it would be twenty dollars a month, much better.

It does matter to me. I have health issues which keep me at home, so I don't have the extra money like that. Plus I have 1 in college, one going in the fall and one right up behind them.

So sixty to a hundred dollars a month prices it out of my range.

Pity - as it did knock weight off and helped with the cravings. But it's just too expensive.

This really tails in well with my take--we need to exercise more, and exercise isn't convenient (and neither are all the other activities we trade off in the name of convenience). The question is really simple, still, though: how convenient is it to be lying on your back, suffering a heart attack? It's just a matter of understanding the consequences, and making the appropriate changes. Unlike others here--I don't blame the environmental factors. These are all avoidable if you make the right lifestyle choices. Besides, they're not going to change any time soon (ever?) -- so what's the point of going there?

I think the two words "discipline and sacrifice", could be used to describe the reasons why over 60% of americans are over weight.

1. sacrifice - anything worth while is going to take a sacrifice. instead of watching tv or talking on the phone,etc. pick a time each day to exercise. that is the only way (with the exception of drugs) you are going to increase your metabolism which will cause you to burn more calories.

2. discipline - exercising takes discipline. you have to tell yourself that this is what you are going to do each day and stick to it. discipline is one of the greatest traits to have in your daily life. Without discipline you are never going to accomplish anything worth while.

But in the life of the average American, very few want to sacrifice or discipline themselves. People that have practiced these traits have become very successful in life.

DaffyGrl:

I dunno, but they should be shot. I always heard that Ally McBeal was a good show, but every time I watched it I wanted to throw that chick a sandwich. I don't like people looking like Skeletor.

I think sometimes no matter what you do you have to make sacrifices and live with your choices. Me, I run in my spare time, or swim if I get the chance. I also have the worst eating habits possible. I was born and raised on soul food, and I'm not giving it up any time soon. I would rather be pudgy and keep eating what I like and getting some physical exercise (I don't know many guys or gals my size that can run a mile in under 6 minutes) than to be some Abercrombie model eating tofu. I believe that if everyone got outside for an hour a day and just walked around the neighborhood, or apartment complex, you'd be doing yourself a favor.

I don't think that's accurate, Hobbes. I think we have some legitimate opportunities from an urban planning perspective to help nudge those environmental factors in the other direction. Making choices in architectural design & urban planning that encourage walking is a start. Building or re-engineering cities to combat urban sprawl (suburbanization) is another.

I don't pretend this is *the* answer to obesity, but I have no doubt it would help if we were more active as a lifestyle as opposed to forcing ourselves to be on a treadmill for 30 minutes a day, 5 days a week. Its just another way of attacking the problem.

Doc

Nobody has yet made the point that obesity is not in and of itself necessarily a bad thing for our health. It is possible to be overwieght or obese and still be very fit, run marathons, etc. Think Michael Chiklis (lead actor in [i]The Shield/i] on Fox) - nobody would say he didn't have some body fat, or a bit of a belly, but nor could anyone say he wasn't fit and healthy. Not only in absolute medical terms - he LOOKS physically healthy, although he doesn't meet the modern cultural ideal of what a healthy attractive man is "supposed" to look like.

I've read reports of many studies recently that show that crude BMI-based measures of obesity do not have much relation to levels of health or disease. It's more useful to compare levels of fitness to disease and death rates, where the correlation is higher. Thin people (culturally acceptable) who are unfit are far more likely to get a heart attack or stroke than someone who is fat (culturally unnacceptable) and fit.

Let's not be too hard on the medical establishment either for concentrating so much on measures like BMI to measure obesity. For one thing, they are as much a part of our culture as the rest of us, so they are conditioned to see "fat" as equating to "unnattractive" and "unhealthy" just like we are.

For another, the multi-billion-dollar dieting industry cannot survive it's own success - if it really worked, and everyone could ose wiehgt permanently by following the latest fad diet, they would put themselves out of business. This seems so obvious when loked at in this context, yet so many people become so desperate that they are willing to ignore logic in favour of something that holds the promise of making them feel better (even if that feeling is only transitory).

Underlying this, we come back to the cultural idea that fat = ugly. I'd be willing to bet that the morbidly obese who are advised by their doctor form a tiny minority of dieters compared to people who just feel unattractive or unworthy in some way, and assign all thos enegatvie feelings to their weight. Until we can somehow solve this problem - a lack of self-esteem - we will forever have problems in this area, even if some future cultural shift means fat = beautiful, since at that point all the naturally skinny people will feel bad.

I can't help thinking that the key is to somehow lower expectations, not to wave a notional magic wand and suddenly improve the human tendency to be hard on ourselves when we compare ourselves to others. One seems possible, the other doesn't.

No one would call him obese, either. There is a difference between being overweight and clinically obese.

Julian, the issue in this topic isn't whether having 10 pounds of extra weight should be considered taboo. Its addressing what is in this country an outright epidemic. Obesity is close to surpassing smoking as the #1 preventable cause of death in America.

BMI can be an inaccurate measure for some people, esp cases like athletes where body fat percentages aren't taken into account. But it is a starting point.

Body image and marketing points aside, this country is getting fatter and the point of this debate is what to do about it.

There is a difference between supporting "heroin sheik" and wanting people to lead healthier lives and live longer. That isn't what's being discussed here.

Doc

I have a question about the "fast foods make us fat" excuse.

How come we're not all fat? I love Big Macs and double whoppers with cheese. And I'm not fat.

Why is that? Because I eat those things in moderation and get off my lazy butt and do something. I work full time, play in two bands, own and operate my own engineering business, and have a 5 year old. So, there is nobody with less time than me. But I still go to the Y for a minimum of a half hour of exercise 2 to 3 times a week. Sometimes I really, really don't want to go, but you know why I do? Because it's too easy to find an excuse. If you can find 2 hours out of the week to watch Oprah, watch the Fear Factor, or argue with complete strangers on an internet message board, you have 2 hours to exercise. There is NO excuse. For Pete's sake, Christopher Reeves exercises, so there is no physical limitation if you really want to do it.

All these reasons for getting fat are excuses. Nobody has to be fat unless it's just easier to be fat. When's the last time you went to Walmart and saw a handicapped person riding the little electric scooters that was young and skinny? You don't. Since I brought this up to my wife, we pay attention to "handicapped" people that use special parking and the little scooters. Unless they're real old, they're real fat. Some doctor giving them a special status just lets them work less.

Look, if you're fat and can't seem to do anything about, God love you. Nobody should be getting down on you unless it's affecting your health. But please, don't insult us with excuses. People are fat because it's easier to fat. Period.

While I will agree that some people are fat because they are to lazy to exercise, can you explain why some people don't exercise, eat fast food like crazy and are still slim? I know some like that. And they don't exercise.

Personally, I believe there are many things that go into being fat. I'm fat, and for the most part it doesn't bother me in the least. I smoke, and guess what I missed less time at work than some of the so called "slim and healthy" folks. I wasn't working a sit down at the desk type of job either. For the most part, the dependable people who were working at the time, were all most all overweight(not necessarily fat)and alot of them smoke. Retail isn't a sit on your butt type of job, especially when your employer expects 110% from all of his employees.

There are also a lot of smokers who never get cancer. As much as doctors hate to admit it, they can't determine why people have different physiological reactions to chemicals -- and they can't determine why some people can gain weight on 800 calories a day, while others can lose weight by sitting on a sofa and ingesting 7,000.

Until they do unravel all the mysteries of the body, you can't really hold them accountable for it in the way you want -- especially since the only really effective treatment is a surgery few can afford.

Terra

Go see the new documentary "Super Size me" directed by Morgan Spurlock.

Spurlock went on a McDonalds diet: that is for one full month he ate nothing but McDonalds, three meals a day, seven days a week, morning noon and evening. He ate nothing that was not on the McDonalds menu, and he had every item at least once.

He started out in trim, excellent shape, and kept his usual regimen of excersise going as he did this test, under the supervision of three doctors and a nutritionist, who gave him frequent check-ups and monitored his progress.

In one month he spent about $850, gained 24 pounds, raised his once-normal cholesterol levels by 65 points, sent his blood-fat levels through of the roof and, in one of his doctor's words, turned his liver into pate. It took him nearly two months of his girlfriend's vegan diet to get his blood sugar and fat levels back to normal.

In addition he started suffering from frequent of headaches, chest pain, mood swings, exhaustion, depression, etc.


Scary.

What was the point of even performing that study? You could have done the same thing on a calculator.

If your fat calorie intake exceeds what your body can burn off, it doesn't matter if it's McDonalds, Burger King, or BW3 boneless chicken wings (which is much worse than any Big mac).

How come nobody is going on a month long diet of Budweiser and pistachios? It would be the same results and a hell of a lot more fun.

As far as comparisons of skinny people who eat cheeseburgers, it's a simple premise. For whatever reason, they have a higher metabolism. It could be because of smoking (which increases metabolism, thus answering the question why people gain weight when they quit smoking), genetics, medications, or an entire laundry list of reasons.

If your metabolism is low, you increase it (excercise, regular eating habits, etc). You avoid the things that decrease it. Again, it takes work. I know this because I DO work at it. I don't eat ice cream every night. I don't eat donuts everyday. I hate breakfast but eat cereal every morning to make sure my body is consuming calories at all times. I'll eat fast food a few times a month. In other words, I don't deprive myself, but I don't indulge either. If I eat a gutbomb for lunch (aka Whopper with cheese), I'll do it on a day I know I'm lifting weights versus just using the treadmill. Most days, I eat Subway. Very filling and low calories (comparatively speaking of course). Without doing all this, I'd be a hundred pounds heavier.

Being fat is a choice and choosing McDonalds has nothing to do with it. Unfortunately for some, they've been dealt a crappier hand and it's a very difficult and unfair burden. If they choose not to fight, I can't fault anyone for that because it is more difficult than most people could imagine. But please, don't blame me, society, or McDonalds for it either.

Because there are no Massive multinational industry-leading fast food chains that sell nothing but Beer and pistachios (which are actually fairly healthy, as I recall); that refuse to put nutritional information on their food; that directly advertise to children; that pass themselves off as a reasonable meal alternative... etc.

My point on Michael Chiklis (or Arnold Shwarzenegger or anyone else you can think of who is more than usually muscular, especially if it's coupled with stocky build) more than likely [i]is clinically obese, because the medical definition of obesity only uses BMI.

From the link you posted:

" The BMI is more highly correlated with body fat than any other indicator of height and weight " (my emphasis)

What are we doing using something that is merely correlated to body fat when we can, by measuring resistivity or body calipers using tools that are easy enough to buy from a local hardware of drug store, measure body fat itself more directly?

Clearly, we think we know what morbid obesity looks like - the grossly fat people we increasingly see in our streets and neighbourhoods. However, BMI doesn't just include these people, it also includes, and medicalises, people with no actual health problems at all. I don't doubt that most of the people who are told by their personal physician that they should lose weight because it risks their health are genuinely in danger, but they are a tiny proportion of the people who make the dieting industry so much money through, basically, some degree of personal misery that may have less to do with physical and more to do with mental health.

My point is not that obesity is not a major health problem, possibly the major health problem facing developed nations in coming years.

My point is that medical obesity is itself questionably defined (why is it not just a strightforward body fat percentage, adjusted for age & geneder?), and that "fatness" (which is not necessarrily the same thing as being at health risk from obesity) is at least as much of a social and political issue as it is a medical one. For example, why is it that the poor have disproportionately more obesity than the rich? What have we done to our food supply and economics to make it easier for poor people to live on high sugar and high fat diets than to eat healthily?

Obesity is certainly caused by an excess of calorie intake over calorie usage, but what do we need to change in our societies to make the balancing act easier? Most of the things we have done in the past 50 years have made it harder. What do we need to do differently?

Let's assume for a moment that your posts weren't circular. How could your recommendations apply to people in certain inner-city neighborhoods? Grocery stores aren't available -- and neither is public transportation during non-work hours. Even worse, they're forced to choose between exercise and getting caught in gang warfare.

People can only choose what's available in their environment.

Terra

that point of view isn't valid.

Anyone that has a tv has seen a news program or a documentary on obesity and the causes of it.

And exercising can be done in your house or apartment if it only has one room. Exercising does not require money or a fancy health club.

There is only one excuse for being obese. LAZY. It is where you put your priorities.

Except for cases of medical problems or parents just feeding their kids poorly, obesity is a self accountability problem. It boils down to being responsible for ones actions. If you eat at McDonalds and expect to stay fit and trim you are either ignorant or an idiot.

This is true. The choices may be harder for someone in the inner-city, but they are not absolved of responsibility because of it.



That raises an interesting question then. Are you suggesting that Americans are naturally much lazier than everyone else? Because that is the implication of this statement.

Although the "fault" (being overweight is not a crime and should not even be an issue unless it's affecting your health) of being overweight lies squarely with the individual, I think it's a little more complicated than being simply lazy.

Lazy means not taking a shower/bath for 4 days because you'd have to leave the couch. However, not taking a bath because your access to warm water is limited is entirely different. You could take a bath more frequently, but you'd have to drive to your mom's house to do it.

My point is, is that some people, for whatever reason, do have to work harder than most to avoid being overweight. This doesn't necessarily make them lazy. But they are not working as hard as they could - which is "lazy" to others. I think that's a bit unfair.

And if they don't want to work as hard to keep fit, it's not up to anybody to judge them. On the other hand, don't blame McDonalds or society either. If you truly think McDonalds is to blame, so is every fast food joint on the planet and every grocery store in America. My point earlier with Budweiser and pistachios, was while both in moderation are good for you, excess of either is bad. The poster who responded negatively to my pistachio reference has no idea how many fat calories are in something that would appear so "healthy". Yet, Planters tries to sell nuts as health food when in fact, some (particulary, pistachios) are very, very high in fat content. A little is very good for you. Too much is very bad for you. Do we sue them as well?

I believe more of the fault lies with the Jenny Craigs of the world. Diets don't work. With exercise, they help and are useful, but simply dieting is a bad idea and will only make the problem worse. They suck your money, promise unreachable results, and make people destined to fail (by the nature of the program) lose hope. Your quality of life is further diminished because you will always feel deprived and you will gain any weight back you lose as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow morning.

McDonalds couldn't do that damage in a thousand years.

I have heard many people blame laziness, little sacrifice and little time (aside from medical reasons) as the reason why obesity is so prevalent.

I think the reason we have such a health epidemic is because we are all so subjected to factors of ugliness.

Every time you pick up a Glamour magazine, watch an awards show, see a Strongman competition or Bowflex commercial, you realize just how ugly and fat you are.

The book "Fat Talk" by Mimi Fichter acknoweldges that one study showed 50% of girls are dieting at any one times in America. FIFTY PERCENT. It has gotten to the point that 5% of all girls under the age of 20 eventually become anorexic or bulemic. (not really any stats for men)

Don't get me wrong. I know correllation does not always mean causation but isn't it strange that 1) the weight loss industry has continued to GROW at an annual rate of 5.6% per year?
2) In the same amount of time, the percentage of obese Americans has grown 8%

Think about it. How many times have you looked at a magazine or model and gotten self-conscious?

Here comes the "blame anything else but the responsible party" mantra.

The lack of personal accountability and self responsibility in this country is scary. So much of.. It's not my fault, they made me do it, I couldn't help myself. It's pathetic.

I agree UGABoy, self-image plays a major factor in it. Ironically if the diet industry were truly successful, they would be losing money. And I say that having made my own contributions to some of that madness. I want to scream at the adds I see on TV telling people effectively that if they buy this bottle of pills they will lose 30 lbs or more. (*results not typical) Or better yet, accompany the ad with models that have likely never even touched the product (or had to). I really think the FTC has missed the boat on these guys.

People can sit on their high horses and talk about self-control & responsibility until the cows come home but this problem didn't get built overnight and it isn't *just* about working harder, exercising more, and eating less. When the pontificating is finished the reality is that environment, genetics, medical history, culture, parenting, education, & class (probably a few more) all play a role in the choices that are made and the actions taken. This is not a call for lawsuits, this is a call for action and support.

Ultimately, I accept responsibility for creating the body I'm in. Ray Kroc didn't force me to eat that big mac & Papa John didn't make me pick up the phone to order that large pepperoni. But is it wrong to acknowledge that some other factors influenced that decision? Is it wrong to look around and wonder why we don't walk anywhere any more? Is it wrong to wonder why I look in the mirror and rage at the self-loathing that accompanies it sometimes?

You won't find a stronger advocate for individual responsibility than yours truly, but the social scientist in me also accepts multiple points of causality, even when the cure has a more singular focus. We can assist those wishing to make a change in their lives for the better, help educate parents and their young to make better choices, encourage those actually doing so who haven't obtained that ideal sub 12% body fat, ask our architects and planners to build retail, sidewalks, neighborhoods & parks that encourage walking and physical activity, or we can judge them all and just tell them they are lazy. Who is being lazy in this case?

Doc

Referring to the "lazy" comment.

I wouldn't hesitate for one moment to say that Americans are lazy. Just look at the statistics for what the typical American does in his spare time.

In my 56 years this is the laziest I have ever seen my fellow Americans.

Just looking at the waistline of your neighbors and co-workers would be proof enough.

Sleeper, am I really that pathetic because I think there has more to do with the situation than "stop going to Burger King"? I think that people need to look more into the situation.

This seems to be the greatest answer to our riddle of being the wealthiest nation in the world, yet at the same time statistically the most unhappy nation in the world.

Here's another riddle: how do you tell half the females in America who are dieting at this very second that they just aren't trying hard enough? If they really cared about being healthy they'd stick their fingers down their throats like the other 1 in 20 Americans, who "truly" care about their weight, right?

If you seriousy don't give a second thought about yourself ever, I am seriously glad to hear that, and wish everyone could be like that.

But as for me, I just finished reading "Men's Health" Magazine.

So if anyone needs me, I'll be at the gym.

You don't. You tell them they're doing it wrong. You lose more calories in a gym than you ever will in the low-cal section of the grocery store.

No, you're not pathetic.

We're talking about a major lifestyle change for the obese. It's about as easy as quitting smoking, which isn't easy at all.

Food represents comfort and rewards to many people. This is how they were raised. A sedentary existence is a habit that was formed. It takes a remarkable amount of willpower to change diet and activity. And when there are other family members who are accustomed as well to this diet and amount of activity, it is even more difficult.

As we age, our metabolisms slow down, and yet we like the same foods in the same quantities.

Obese people will not be motivated by the scorn of others to alter their lifestyles, for they have to care about themselves enough to desire to change. Without a network of friends or family to support them, it is easy to get off-track.

Lawsuits against fast food corporations and blaming television ads for encouraging consumption of unhealthy food is unrealistic. There is something inside an obese person that calls for that person to be insulated from the outside world. An obese person is hungry for something other than food, but food is available. Self acceptance and self love (not narcissism) are what any person needs to care enough to start and stick with healthy lifestyle changes.

Not necessarily. If you don't watch the news frequently -- and statistics show that many Americans don't -- then it's easy to be confused by the high-protein/low-carb debates. Remember, few people realize that most doctors have not taken a single nutrition course in medical school, and that the real experts are RDs who are almost never interviewed. (Except for Gary Foster, who despite the fact he's a psychologist, knows what he's talking about.)

And let's examine your statement about exercise being done in a house. How do you get cardio done? Running around in circles in an 10X12 bedroom? In most inner-city houses, even lightly stepping will irritate your downstairs neighbors; who knows what will happen if you start intentionally stomping. (I've actually known someone who found her neighbor at her door with a gun because her friend's toddler was causing too much noise running up and down the hall.) Not to mention the fact that it is dangerous to do cardio if you have been inactive for a while: video aerobics instructors are not merely protecting themselves from lawsuits when they advise you to consult a doctor before beginning an exercise regimen. For that matter, weight training is far from intuitive. It is very, very easy to injure yourself if you're just starting and don't have access to and/or can't read weight training books.

Terra

Yes and no. The diet that is least likely to cause heart disease consists of 35-40% of calories from fat -- but it's almost entirely the mono and poly-unsaturated types of fats found in nuts and fish.

Nuts are considered to be unhealthy more because of their caloric density, and not because of their fat composition.



But the calorie reductions you describe lead to the same biochemical mechanisms resulting in rebound weight gain. Nutrition's dirty little secret is that "lifestyle modification" outside of childhood ultimately isn't successful -- the only thing that really works is bariatric surgery.

Terra

I would say that a stationary bicycle would be the best bet. I use one and I get my pulse rate up to 145 to 150. Or there are situps or pushups that will get your pulse rate up plus tone you up.

Or use a broom stick and put it on your shoulders and wrap each arm over the broom and twist to each side. There are loads of activities that don't require jumping up and down or pounding on the pavement.

How do I know. My doctor told me to quit running(which I had been doing for 20 years, because of my knee joints) and I had to find some alternatives. With a imagination anything can be accomplished.

How is someone on welfare going to afford a stationary bicycle?

And while the broom thing may be possible for some people, a) it's not intuitive, it's not being pushed by the media and thus is not presented as an option so there's no realistic way poor people would be able to learn about it, and c) it doesn't evade my points about the need for medical supervision. Twisting a broom may be wonderful for you, but I question how helpful it would be for someone with a history of back problems. Anything may be accomplished with an imagination, but imagination without supervision will land you with hospital bills you can't afford to pay.

Terra

I think this question is getting a little too technical.

Of course you have a small percentage of people that have medical problems, but the vast majority of people aren't going to be hurt by unsupervised physical activities.

Maybe people have taken the pendulum too far that way. What I mean is that every little time someone wants to do exercise or etc, please consult your physican. But perhaps we are taking it too far in that direction.

Sure we need to use a little common sense before we start any kind of physical activity whether it may be recreational or professional. Start the activity at a low rate and increase it over time. I would believe the vast majority of people could figure that out. It shouldn't take a Einstein mentality to start physical exercises.

For instance we used to play dodge ball in physical education classes twice a week. Now it has been done away with because someone might get hurt or some ones feelings might get hurt. Come on, where are we headed. We never had one person hurt in my 4 years of high school playing dodge ball. It was a very stimulating activity and fun.

For my two cents worth, I am ready for the pendulum to swing back the other way. I know some will say something about lawsuits but maybe the pendulum has swung too far there also.

I am sure I will get some comments condemning my way of thinking, but so be it.