Full Version: Child to undergo sex change
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From the BBC
Question for debate:
Do you think that the court should have allowed a 13 year old to begin to change his sex?
I feel in this case that the father inflicted serious phycological damage to the child by raising her as a member of the opposite sex. Now that the child is out of that relationship, I think that she should at least be provided phycological treatment until she is 18 and let her make the decision herself. A sex change is an extreme form of treatment and it should not be decided on or forced on a child by the courts.
QUOTE
"Alex", is biologically a girl, but wishes to be considered and referred to as a male.
Brought up as a boy by his father, he opts to wear nappies to school rather than use female toilets.....
It is the first time an Australian child has been given legal approval to begin hormone treatment based solely on a psychiatric assessment
Brought up as a boy by his father, he opts to wear nappies to school rather than use female toilets.....
It is the first time an Australian child has been given legal approval to begin hormone treatment based solely on a psychiatric assessment
Question for debate:
Do you think that the court should have allowed a 13 year old to begin to change his sex?
I feel in this case that the father inflicted serious phycological damage to the child by raising her as a member of the opposite sex. Now that the child is out of that relationship, I think that she should at least be provided phycological treatment until she is 18 and let her make the decision herself. A sex change is an extreme form of treatment and it should not be decided on or forced on a child by the courts.
Wow- where to begin with this one- in the US, I am sure our psych laws are very different than Australias- you can not even diagnose a kid with an Axis 2 personalisty disorder until 18- because it is so hard to distinguish behavior from biology in teenagers. Intensive therapy until 18, nothing to say she can't do it, but wait until her normal puberty is over, would be more appropriate I think.
This child will begin contrary hormone therapy at 13? Wow what a mess.
Ill ad to CR's assesment, although he is more qualified,
It is too soon. I would think intensive psychological therapy should be a first, before hormonal therapy that could send a child down a road to irrreversability without profound reflection and realization that her gender typing has been corrupted, for whatever reason, but it seems in this case by an outside influence. As far as the child being distraught, ostrasized and having suicidal tendancies, welcome to puberty for anyone outside the norm. I dont mean that to be crass, but since the state is willing to pay for the therapies, better to start with the child understanding what happened and come to grips with it and give the mind a recouperable chance, than take the road of hormonally changing her permanently when she is yet fully grown in a biological sense.
I believe the natural course of growth should be given its due time, with lots therapy to help her cope in the transition.
Obviously the judge is not a doctor and has no clue of other factors in human developement, like you dont mess around with growing human beings basic chemical make-up until its finished growing and changing. This is one of the reasons why we should encourage our teens not to take drugs, because they are still developing.
I cant believe what is going on in Australia that they would even consider such a thing! Where were the doctors who know about human growth? Who cares if she arm wrestles the whole football team?
Im an Amazon and could take most boys in my tomboy days, until I became semi-femmy in my 30's. Still not so much.
I wonder if this was not a case of, looks like a boy, acts like a boy, make her a boy. That judge should visit alaska! ( Sorry this is not a joking case, the judge should have a better grip on psychology and biology, someone should have spoken on medical terms. )
Ill ad to CR's assesment, although he is more qualified,
It is too soon. I would think intensive psychological therapy should be a first, before hormonal therapy that could send a child down a road to irrreversability without profound reflection and realization that her gender typing has been corrupted, for whatever reason, but it seems in this case by an outside influence. As far as the child being distraught, ostrasized and having suicidal tendancies, welcome to puberty for anyone outside the norm. I dont mean that to be crass, but since the state is willing to pay for the therapies, better to start with the child understanding what happened and come to grips with it and give the mind a recouperable chance, than take the road of hormonally changing her permanently when she is yet fully grown in a biological sense.
I believe the natural course of growth should be given its due time, with lots therapy to help her cope in the transition.
Obviously the judge is not a doctor and has no clue of other factors in human developement, like you dont mess around with growing human beings basic chemical make-up until its finished growing and changing. This is one of the reasons why we should encourage our teens not to take drugs, because they are still developing.
I cant believe what is going on in Australia that they would even consider such a thing! Where were the doctors who know about human growth? Who cares if she arm wrestles the whole football team?
Im an Amazon and could take most boys in my tomboy days, until I became semi-femmy in my 30's. Still not so much.
I wonder if this was not a case of, looks like a boy, acts like a boy, make her a boy. That judge should visit alaska! ( Sorry this is not a joking case, the judge should have a better grip on psychology and biology, someone should have spoken on medical terms. )
Now this is one crazy story!
I also believe that this child is too young to undergo a sex change. However, I am wondering for what reason the father did this.
There needs to be some sort of parental guidance in this decision. And if that RESPONSIBLE parent believes this is the appropriate thing to do, then I guess it should be allowed - as long as thechild's body is mature enough to handle the operation.
I also believe that this child is too young to undergo a sex change. However, I am wondering for what reason the father did this.
There needs to be some sort of parental guidance in this decision. And if that RESPONSIBLE parent believes this is the appropriate thing to do, then I guess it should be allowed - as long as thechild's body is mature enough to handle the operation.
This is a surprising story. I've never heard of gender dysphoria being diagnosed even before full-fledged puberty starts.
This quote seems rather suspect... just because many transexuals... indeed all transexuals to this point, have gone through puberty as the "wrong" sex. I wonder what would make this particular case so much more compelling. I suspect there is some activism here that goes beyond just a desire to help this one boy.
The particulars of the relationship b/n the father and child are not well detailed - I wonder if the father raised the child as a boy because the child acted as and wanted to be treated as a boy. The Gender identity is set by around 18 months - the exact mechanism for which no one is sure. There are those children raised as the opposite sex who still maintain the "appropriate" gender identity. There are also children raised to be essentially the penultimate example of their sex and have the opposite gender identity. Clearly there is some amount of nature & nurture working together. So, from the bare bones of this story, its hard to tell if the father just followed the cues from his child, or if there was some pathology of the father that led to the opposite gender identity.
The disturbing thing is giving the child hormones so early. Unlike a male to female transition, a female to male transition becomes irreversible after the high level testosterone starts. And as CR said, it is hard to tell the difference b/n behavior and biology in teens. I would think the best idea would be therapy through puberty, perhaps with the reversible hormones - but don't start any irreversible therapy until age 18. Of course, standard thought here in the US includes having the individual live for one to two years as the desired sex before irreversible therapy or surgery - so clearly this case would meet those standards - but I guess the question is... do teenagers really know their own minds?
On one hand I want to say bravo - acceptance of these oft misunderstood and even villified people. But then of course, I also wonder how much of this "victory" is perhaps overzelous activism that makes the child a hapless victim.
QUOTE
"Here the degree of stress is so great that going through the hormonal and bodily changes of puberty would actually be too distressing for the child to tolerate," she reportedly said.
This quote seems rather suspect... just because many transexuals... indeed all transexuals to this point, have gone through puberty as the "wrong" sex. I wonder what would make this particular case so much more compelling. I suspect there is some activism here that goes beyond just a desire to help this one boy.
The particulars of the relationship b/n the father and child are not well detailed - I wonder if the father raised the child as a boy because the child acted as and wanted to be treated as a boy. The Gender identity is set by around 18 months - the exact mechanism for which no one is sure. There are those children raised as the opposite sex who still maintain the "appropriate" gender identity. There are also children raised to be essentially the penultimate example of their sex and have the opposite gender identity. Clearly there is some amount of nature & nurture working together. So, from the bare bones of this story, its hard to tell if the father just followed the cues from his child, or if there was some pathology of the father that led to the opposite gender identity.
The disturbing thing is giving the child hormones so early. Unlike a male to female transition, a female to male transition becomes irreversible after the high level testosterone starts. And as CR said, it is hard to tell the difference b/n behavior and biology in teens. I would think the best idea would be therapy through puberty, perhaps with the reversible hormones - but don't start any irreversible therapy until age 18. Of course, standard thought here in the US includes having the individual live for one to two years as the desired sex before irreversible therapy or surgery - so clearly this case would meet those standards - but I guess the question is... do teenagers really know their own minds?
On one hand I want to say bravo - acceptance of these oft misunderstood and even villified people. But then of course, I also wonder how much of this "victory" is perhaps overzelous activism that makes the child a hapless victim.
I agree with the sentiments espoused in the previous posts. I am not familiar with the penal code in Australia, but if a similar incident happened in the United States I would be in favor of investigating the father. Something so drastic as to alter the psychological gender of a child is nothing short of abuse in my mind, and if he was found responsible I would like to see charges pressed. This is, of course, a moot point since the father is now deceased.
I would like to know more about the psychological and medical evaluation of Alex before I would offer an opinion. Here is a very detailed website from an organization offering support for young people with gender identity issues:
Mermaids
From the "Medical" section of this site, I found this paragraph:
(Bold added for emphasis)
Given this, I would say that if qualified experts are, to the degree possible, absolutely certain that Alex will always be transgendered, hormonal therapy at this age may be justified. If there is any doubt, psychological support may be better.
Mermaids
From the "Medical" section of this site, I found this paragraph:
QUOTE
Juvenile Gender Dysphoria
Adult transsexuals often recall that their gender dysphoria started early in life, well before puberty. Children with gender identity problems come increasingly to the attention of the psychomedical care system. There is as yet not sufficient information whether all children with gender nonconformity will turn out to be genuine transsexuals later in life. Some studies on gender nonconformity in prepubertal children rather indicate that homosexuality will be the outcome. But if, in expert opinion, their cross-sex gender identity will not change in long term follow-up, the torment of (fully) developing at puberty secondary sex characteristics of a sex they view not as their own, can be spared. Depot forms of antagonists/agonists of luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone can be used when there are clear signs of sexual maturation to delay pubertal development until an age that a balanced and responsible decision can be made (Gooren and Delemarre - van de Waal, 1996). Less ideal are medroxyprogesterone acetate or in boys cyproterone acetate.
Adult transsexuals often recall that their gender dysphoria started early in life, well before puberty. Children with gender identity problems come increasingly to the attention of the psychomedical care system. There is as yet not sufficient information whether all children with gender nonconformity will turn out to be genuine transsexuals later in life. Some studies on gender nonconformity in prepubertal children rather indicate that homosexuality will be the outcome. But if, in expert opinion, their cross-sex gender identity will not change in long term follow-up, the torment of (fully) developing at puberty secondary sex characteristics of a sex they view not as their own, can be spared. Depot forms of antagonists/agonists of luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone can be used when there are clear signs of sexual maturation to delay pubertal development until an age that a balanced and responsible decision can be made (Gooren and Delemarre - van de Waal, 1996). Less ideal are medroxyprogesterone acetate or in boys cyproterone acetate.
(Bold added for emphasis)
Given this, I would say that if qualified experts are, to the degree possible, absolutely certain that Alex will always be transgendered, hormonal therapy at this age may be justified. If there is any doubt, psychological support may be better.
QUOTE(Victoria Silverwolf @ Apr 21 2004, 03:32 AM)
I would like to know more about the psychological and medical evaluation of Alex before I would offer an opinion. Here is a very detailed website from an organization offering support for young people with gender identity issues:
Mermaids
From the "Medical" section of this site, I found this paragraph:
(Bold added for emphasis)
Given this, I would say that if qualified experts are, to the degree possible, absolutely certain that Alex will always be transgendered, hormonal therapy at this age may be justified. If there is any doubt, psychological support may be better.
Mermaids
From the "Medical" section of this site, I found this paragraph:
QUOTE
Juvenile Gender Dysphoria
Adult transsexuals often recall that their gender dysphoria started early in life, well before puberty. Children with gender identity problems come increasingly to the attention of the psychomedical care system. There is as yet not sufficient information whether all children with gender nonconformity will turn out to be genuine transsexuals later in life. Some studies on gender nonconformity in prepubertal children rather indicate that homosexuality will be the outcome. But if, in expert opinion, their cross-sex gender identity will not change in long term follow-up, the torment of (fully) developing at puberty secondary sex characteristics of a sex they view not as their own, can be spared. Depot forms of antagonists/agonists of luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone can be used when there are clear signs of sexual maturation to delay pubertal development until an age that a balanced and responsible decision can be made (Gooren and Delemarre - van de Waal, 1996). Less ideal are medroxyprogesterone acetate or in boys cyproterone acetate.
Adult transsexuals often recall that their gender dysphoria started early in life, well before puberty. Children with gender identity problems come increasingly to the attention of the psychomedical care system. There is as yet not sufficient information whether all children with gender nonconformity will turn out to be genuine transsexuals later in life. Some studies on gender nonconformity in prepubertal children rather indicate that homosexuality will be the outcome. But if, in expert opinion, their cross-sex gender identity will not change in long term follow-up, the torment of (fully) developing at puberty secondary sex characteristics of a sex they view not as their own, can be spared. Depot forms of antagonists/agonists of luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone can be used when there are clear signs of sexual maturation to delay pubertal development until an age that a balanced and responsible decision can be made (Gooren and Delemarre - van de Waal, 1996). Less ideal are medroxyprogesterone acetate or in boys cyproterone acetate.
(Bold added for emphasis)
Given this, I would say that if qualified experts are, to the degree possible, absolutely certain that Alex will always be transgendered, hormonal therapy at this age may be justified. If there is any doubt, psychological support may be better.
You have been in the medical field for a long time too as I recall VS- a pharmicist, right? You also know that every ten years or so, turns out the medical field was wrong, sometimes horribly wrong, about some thing or another, forcing a "paradigm shift in treatment"- I think that anything done permanently on children is unethical.
CruisingRam makes a good point, and I would agree that hormonal therapy for a transgendered person at the onset of puberty is a very, very serious step, not to be taken without great caution. However, I am unwilling to say that it would never be the best thing to do in a particular case. The burden of proof would be on the part of the medical and psychological experts.
"psychological experts", strikes me as an oxymoron. 
I just want to add that the female to male sex change operation isn't nearly as functional as its male to female counterpart. My concern in this situation is that even though Alex may be experiencing gender dysphoria which certainly brings about self destructive thoughts and behaviors, the solution may be just as difficult to cope with. I really think that there needs to be some intensive counseling in this situation, and Alex needs to fully understand what the limitations of his new body will be.
I do not believe that ANYBODY should go through any form of physically-altering surgery or therapy until after therapy. It is not only morally incorrect, but it is dangerous. What if the worst happens? What is the worst that could happen? This 'Alex" is putting herself at a great deal of risk. This could seriously harm the child and do only-god-knows how much damage.
i admit that you can do what you want to do with your own body, if your an adult, a child however is a minor and not subject to an adult's judgment or privileges. Therefore cannot do what they will with their own body and any parent that would let them is a moron that needs to be investigated by CPS.
QUOTE(Cyan @ Apr 21 2004, 04:09 PM)
I just want to add that the female to male sex change operation isn't nearly as functional as its male to female counterpart. My concern in this situation is that even though Alex may be experiencing gender dysphoria which certainly brings about self destructive thoughts and behaviors, the solution may be just as difficult to cope with. I really think that there needs to be some intensive counseling in this situation, and Alex needs to fully understand what the limitations of his new body will be.
I would be willing to bet I have seen a great deal more transgendered folk than anybody on this board and probably more than 99% of the population- only the folks that do the actual procedure actually sees more of these folks- why? I work at a psychiatric facility- and they are inordinately over represented at my place of employment- usually dealing with depression/suicidal feelings - many times associated with imbalances in their hormone treatments. It is not an easy life to live- though I sympathize and feel there is a genuine need for this procedure- it still does not make it easy on the person- and they always need a great deal of counselling and therapy- even when the procedure is done very well and all protocols followed. To start this process so young is pure folly.
QUOTE
and they always need a great deal of counselling and therapy- even when the procedure is done very well and all protocols followed.
The process of sex change even when completely successful is not an end to the original psychological difficulties that precipitated the procedure. While I've never encountered a transgendered individual in my medical career (that I know of), I have had some personal experience with two very close friends. Through them I have met many transgender individuals - and have seen first hand that individuals post-op will need as much psych support as pre-op. Many of these individuals experience problems beyond being able to reconcile the image in the mirror with the image in their head. There are many social problems, etc. So, post-op, some will get the idea that the other problems will be solved too. Just like some people undergoing any radical plastic surgery think all the problems of life will be "fixed" afterwards.
So, in this case, when I see the push to hormone therapy and surgery as soon as possible - it appears that someone is thinking this will fix or prevent any other problems that arise from gender dysphoria. Alex will need therapy and support. My friend is a FTM (female to male) pre-op man. He expects to never go through the surgery because of the poor results from most female to male procedures. What he always says helps him more than anything else is the loving support from his closest friends and family - people who accept him as he is. In this australian case, already there is pressure on this child to undergo the final surgery... This makes a difficult personal decision worse, and makes Alex once again a victim.
QUOTE
"Alex", is biologically a girl, but wishes to be considered and referred to as a male.
Brought up as a boy by his father, he opts to wear nappies to school rather than use female toilets.....
It is the first time an Australian child has been given legal approval to begin hormone treatment based solely on a psychiatric assessment
Brought up as a boy , I can't imagine why shes a mess. The father is the one that needs a PARTIAL sex change .
"Alex", is biologically a girl, but wishes to be considered and referred to as a male.
Brought up as a boy by his father, he opts to wear nappies to school rather than use female toilets.....
It is the first time an Australian child has been given legal approval to begin hormone treatment based solely on a psychiatric assessment
Brought up as a boy , I can't imagine why shes a mess. The father is the one that needs a PARTIAL sex change .
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