Obviously you got some bad information.

So you think citizens should have the right to own a gun where you just pull the trigger once and you can peel off a thousand rounds in one minute. And here I wanted to ban semi-automatic rifles. You want to legalise the ultimate crowd control weapon.

I sure don't want to be in the mall when some guy with girl friend problems stumbles in with his legal uzi and decides to drop everybody in sight.

Anybody else agrees with the Col. that the 2nd amendment guarantees a citizen the right to own an automatic weapon?

Unfortunately, I do agree with the right to own fully-automatic weapons.

Though I am not fanatic enough to believe it is in order for us to take on the government, as in an actual militia. The trouble with ColWTH's argument is that he says without machine guns we could not compete with a real military. Please allow me to inform you all, civilians could NEVER compete with a real military. It doesn't matter how fast your assault rifle can fire when you're looking down the barrel of a Main Battle Tank, or for that matter, an F-15 fighter/bomber? Unless 2nd amendment nuts are advocating selling SCUDS to gang-bangers, we don't have a chance. Who are we kidding?

We are a nation in love with guns, it is ingrained in our culture. The era of the "Wild West" was unique among the world, and though you would be hard pressed to separate a Cowboy from his Colt, I assure you he did not delude himself so far as to tell you he owned it to defend himself from the government.

And yet, I do not feel machine guns, or any other small arms should be taken from us. They are tools, heirlooms, collector's pieces, home defenders, law enforcers, and play many more vital roles. Though I would suggest stronger regulation in buying and tracking these firearms. As far as machine guns are concerned, shooting faster doesn't mean shooting more effectively, there is a reason US Special Forces often prefer shooting there rifles semi-automatically. This ban(though easy to get around) is just another token/arbitrary gun law passed in order to get someone elected. Did you know that it is illegal for me to put a bayonet on the end of my assault rifle? If I am pointing it at you, the bayonet is the last thing you should be worrying about.

Another Nugget........

Having firearms has never been the root of the American obsession with violence, Canada reports nearly identical percentages as far as guns in the home(around 75%), but while about 1200 maple leaves are shot in canada, we shoot closer to 50, 000 of our fellow countrymen.

We would rather have our children see someone get his head blown off, then someone giving head. If you took away our guns, we would just kill each other with rocks.

jacoer

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Couldn't this argument also be used in support of banning guns in the US? If the problem isn't guns but our violent culture, perhaps that's MORE of a reason for us not to be trusted with guns. To be sure, we would be killing each other with rocks, but we could never reach the kind of numbers we do now. Of course then we could argue over whether or not to ban rocks with sharp edges. Can we use only softer rocks like sandstone? I don't think people should be allowed to use granite, for example...

I would be curious to know how many of these deaths are the result of gang violence. I will try and research that unless somebody already has the info.

As for owning fully automatic weapons, persons already have to be granted a Federal Firearms License with the proscribed classification for auto weapons. One has to jump through flaming hoops and provide verifiable reasons for owning such weapons. But again, I will try and look up the specifics later today.

And yes, it is easy to file down a sear, or 'purchase' apart to render a semi-auto weapon fully auto.

"Couldn't this argument also be used in support of banning guns in the US?" - quarkhead

Could it be used? It is?
I am just saying that in the same way France's obsession with cheese, wine, cigarettes, and bad hygiene is an integral part of their society, guns are inseparable from the American psyche. Sure they are bad for us, but they are what makes us "us". If you can get the French to stop smelling, I will toss my rifles into the ocean.

People often site Britain and Australia as examples of the positive results of banning, or nearly banning guns. The trouble is they were never as attached to firearms in the first place; I guarantee Britain's Prime Minister doesn't receive a prized custom rifle from Winchester every year, as opposed to every president since Lincoln.

"As for owning fully automatic weapons, persons already have to be granted a Federal Firearms License with the proscribed classification for auto weapons. One has to jump through flaming hoops and provide verifiable reasons for owning such weapons." -Dontreadonme

Just so you know.....I am in the process of acquiring a fully-automatic weapon, and it is actually frighteningly easy. The license is called a "Class III NFA" and requires a one page form, 200 dollars, the signature of a law enforcement official, and 2-3 months of patience. If you want to bypass the signature, just start a phony corporation for $30 bucks.

The scariest part....in 3 months I will be able to not only buy heavy machine guns, but grenade launchers....though I appreciate the trust the government places in my intentions, perhaps there SHOULD be a few more "flaming hoops", I can assure you no one is responsible enough to own a grenade launcher.

actually small militias could defeat large armies, it has happened many times (revolution, Cuban revolution, the Bolshevik overthrow of the czars, to name a few) the advantage militias would have against a MBT, or an f-15 is this: they would be able to hide in densely populated areas, the military could come after you with an abrams, or f-15, but they would be risking harming even killing innocent bystanders, this would sway popular support to the side of the militias, which the government would wish to avoid. also, you speak as if all military and police and such would automatically side with the government. this would not be so. while many would probably side with their commanders, many (up to generals even) would possibly side with the militias, they would be those that believe in the constitution mostly.

also the job of the militia is not solely overthrow of a tyrannical government. we (using definition I provided) are to defend the constitution, and America, from enemies both foreign and domestic. the reason the Japanese never thought about invading the American mainland is the militias (one Japanese admiral upon being asked this said "to invade the American mainland is insane, for there is a gun behind every blade of grass") this is mostly what kept the soviets at bay as well.

I am all for banning hand guns. I like Gallagher's (comedian) theory of making all guns have six foot barrels.

Also, I think we should aggressively prosecute people who use guns illegally or possess illegal guns.

But the gun I want to own is the most automated weapon in the world that spits bullets of in all directions. I want a gun in case all hell breaks loose and anarchy prevails. Other than that I personally do not see a valid use for them in society. Now, Constitutionality, that is another point.

My info is a few years old when a co-worker was trying to get one to start buying/selling guns.
Thanks for the updated info.

Then you'll get caught in your own cross fire. The closest you'll get and still stay alive is the good old throw-and-duck hand grenade.

This legal purchasing of automatic weapons by civilians is news to me. That's scary. Exactly what are the conditions for purchase and what are the public protections built in?

By the way, ever heard this dumb joke? What's black, lives high up, and is dangerous.

Answer: A crow in a tree with a submachine gun.

Hmmmm. This sentence scares me. However, not in the way you might think.

A man cuts loose with an uzi in a shopping mall, and you're worried about the legality of the firearm? Last time I checked, IT WAS ILLLEGAL TO KILL PEOPLE.

I, however, am not so agoraphobic. I would hope to be in the mall when some guy with girlfriend problems cuts loose with an uzi. I might possibly be able to STOP him from killing people. (We can see from your previous post that you would not try to stop him at all. Holy cow! I wonder if you read bad news about disasters in the paper and think to yourself "Man, I'm sure glad I wasn't there!")
Other people are more than just names in a newspaper ya know.
Which brings me to a good question:

If a person was trying to kill you, and you knew I had a permit to carry a concealed weapon, would you want me to intervene?

How to own a machine gun

For those curious here is a little support for Jacoer1's post.

As a Business owner well I can tell you it really isnt very difficult.


GBYA

Aahz

Requirement two states: Be of a sound mind.- now, this is kinda of reasonable. but it also prohibits about 50%(probably more) percent of the population from ever owning these types of weapons. also you need a CLEOs, (chief law enforcement officer) signature, which might be pretty hard to obtain. depending on the CLEO.

meanwhile, one who may not be of sound mind, and have had numerous felony convictions, can still obtain these types of weapons, albeit, illegally. it is a proven FACT that gun laws only keep law abiding citizens from owning guns! criminals don't usually follow the law, that is why they are called criminals. something like 90 percent of all guns used in a crime are illegal.

citizens should be able to walk into a gun shop and 15 minutes later walk out with an HK-mp5, or an m-16, as these are guns required to fight tyrannical governments and fend off invasions. in Switzerland, all males are required to take two years compulsory military service and training, and everyone that has finished that is required to take their rifle with them upon discharge. burglaries are virtually unheard of BTW. (would you try breaking in my house know there could be an m-16 waiting inside to greet you?) society is safer when criminals don't know who is armed. heck, in Colorado, you can't carry a loaded, legal, handgun IN PLAIN SIGHT, on your hip (former libertarian senate candidate Rick Stanley has been arrested for just that, TWICE! then at his trial, the judge told him and his attorney they were not to
mention the constitution or risk committing contempt!)

I will close this post with a qoute by a famous dictator:
"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
- Adolf Hitler, April 15, 1935

I don't neeed to remind you wat hapened shortly therafter, do I?

Our hero:


Jamie call me on it if I am crossing some guide line Edited out personal comment. Catching a bullet aint going to save nobody.

However it is nice to be able to posture heroically on a Forum where you will never have to prove yourself.

As the Albert Schweitzer of the gun set perhaps you would like to offer us a virtual list of your history of derring do on behalf of endangered humanity.

Nice to know that you walk into malls packing concealed weapons. I don't want you even near me, bad guys around or not.

Unabomber.


Not a very good example. Although there were some weak gun laws put in by the Weimar Republic they were not seriously enforced. As a result Hitler and his storm troopers, armed to the teeth, shot and intimidated their way into power.

The question of Hitler's serious application of restrictive gun laws later is in fact a matter of historical dispute.

The Hitler and for that matter Mussolini model brings up an interesting question. If an attempt was made by undemocratic forces to seize the US government just which side would the militias and other organized gun groups support? From what I've heard and read I'm not at all convinced it wouldn't be the putschists.

Admin Edit from previous post Catching a bullet aint going to save nobody.


Well in the first place if someone came in a mall with an Uzi and started firing it is highly likely no one will be hit. An Uzi is notoriously inaccurate and the muzzle climb is horrendous. It is what Gun folks call a spray and pray weapon..... Spray the target and pray ya hit something.. Also almost every Uzi weapon comes in 9mm caliber. They also will not function with hollow point ammo...thus full metal jacket (FMJ) ammo must be employed. As any shooter will tell you FMJ ammo is much more likely to wound than kill in the unlikely incidence someone IS actually hit.

So the facts are that our "Hero" IS very bright because he will recognize the weapon and if he has a concealed handgun will be able to take cover and dispatch the perp before very much property damage is done or someone is hit by a ricochet...

Unfortunately Dingo you would likely be stuck lying on the floor in the growing yellow puddle praying to God/ or crying for your mamma. With no recourse other than hoping you arent hit and he runs out of ammo soon.

In todays world where such things are possible in our Malls I am glad I can carry a concealed firearm. Not as much for my protection but for the protection of others. And yes Dingo I would draw my weapon and kill the man in the mall probably before you made it to the floor and long before your pants got wet...

Yes I have been trained on how to use it. Yes I am well aware of background and innocents in the area. That is why I carry sub sonic .45 Hydra Shok's in my CC weapon.

I just went to a Gun show today in fact. I purchased a Bushmaster XM15E2 Stainless steel Match Grade AR-15 Clone. It will shoot 1MOA straight outta the box. For the uninformed that means it will place 3 bullets within 1 inch at 100yds.

I walked up haggled the price down from $1,200 to $1,050 handed the man my master card and DL.....15 minutes later I walked away with a fully capable military style assault weapon.

I love America. Point is a friend of mine was with me. He is a German national. He is here on Business and may stay. He had never seen a gun show...he told his wife he would take 30 minutes...LOL 4 hours later he was still marveling at American freedom with anyone who would listen.

He says Germans think they are free because they are told this is what freedom is. Yet only when he was able to spend time in America did he realize Germans are NOT free they are subjects not citizens. I could go on and on but instead I will invite him here and we will see if he joins. You can get it straight from someone who has lived under both systems of Gun control..


OH BTW I am PRO GUN !!!



GBYA

Aahz

I think D

Another hero:

I would have never guessed.

Thanks for letting me know that uzi's are inaccurate peashooters. Next time somebody in my vicinity lets loose with one I'll tackle the SOB. Just call me hero # 3. You might want to get in touch with the IDF and give them your expert evaluation.



Just curious what your favorite shoot-em-up movies and TV shows are - quick draw man.



Surprising he had to learn from you about the joys of guns and the freedom they bring. You would think he would have been regaled with thrilling, inspiring stories from his grandparents generation.

Dingo,
Why is it you make no sense when you respond. You offer nothing but nonsensical diatribe.

YOU tackle a man with an UZI I doubt it man you would probably slip and fall down from where you peed your pants. I have seen it before. Big burly men that think they are heros lying there in their own filth crying like a baby when the shootin starts. Then it is always up to someone like myself to get out there and save their sorry butt.

The IDF is a new one to me. But if they need and education on firearms I will be happy to help them out.

Does it intimidate you soo badly that I do know a bit about firearms?

All you do is make slanderous off topic comments that have no basis in reality. In fact I havent seen a decent argument from you yet. Just condescending *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. ***.

As for my German friend your comment makes absolutely no sense. What exactly were you trying to say?
We are talking about Gun control and freedom and you bring up grand[arents? WTF?

Do you have anything constructive to contribute? If not I will just ignore you from now on.....hehe


GBYA

Aahz

Aahz,



Nothing apparently that you would understand.



Good idea. Do us both a favor and please ignore me.

This thread has been closed because threads of this length tend to be daunting to new members. Additionally, the focus of the thread has been all over the place. While it has been a good exercise in refining our arguments, a new thread should prove to be more focused and well thought out. I'm sure we'll revisit this one.