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turnea
I hope to pull together an interesting pattern for global terrorism that has arisen as of late. This is to say attracting the intense ire of the very countries it needs to maintain implicit support from.

First Saudi Arabia
Remember the November bombing of Riyadh?
QUOTE
Saudi authorities have promised they will catch who is responsible for this attack, but they also know they are in a battle for hearts and minds with the Islamic militants.
All this has also had an enormous psychological effect within Saudi Arabia.

Muslims were killed, Arabs were killed and all in the holy month of Ramadan.

There are many who believe al-Qaeda - if responsible for the attacks - may have fatally miscalculated, alienating those it was trying to win over.

Saudi officials in the kingdom have painted this latest attack in the kingdom as the desperate act of an organisation under severe pressure as the authorities round up hundreds of people.

Saudis stunned by latest attack
more on the reaction...
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"Terrorism presents its ugliness to all" - What are these people targeting, presenting themselves in such a monstrous manner? Who wants to live or deal with a person filled with all this hatred, and possessed with agonies of evil and violent death? They [the perpetrators] have by themselves, and their sinful hands, brought upon themselves social rejection... It is not religious to resort to such ugly methods against the innocent.

Al-Jazeera - Saudi Arabia

Crime against religion and humanity" - What happened in the residential compound... can only be described as aggression against religion, ethics and humanity... Under which law or legislation are the innocent killed? Under what pretext are innocent children and women assassinated, as they sit in their homes and have not committed any crime?

Ukaz - Saudi Arabia

Riyadh bombing appals Arab press
or what about the numerous attacks on Iraqi civilians in the aftermath of the war?
For example...
QUOTE
Suicide bombers have killed at least 34 people in a series of apparently co-ordinated attacks in central Baghdad.

The attacks, which wounded at least 224, targeted the headquarters of the International Committee of the Red Cross and four police stations across the city on Monday.

The attack marks the first time a suicide bomber has struck the famously neutral international aid agency in its 140-year history
. ..
The ICRC expressed outrage at the bombing.

A spokeswoman in Baghdad, Nada Doumani, said: "We only have a few foreigners here, as we rely on our Iraqi brethren.

"This is a hideous act, a reprehensible act against the ICRC."

Baghdad terror blasts kill dozens
More info...
Terrorists and Freedom Fighters
Freedom Fighters, ...power to the people?
and the most recent example
QUOTE
Al-Qaeda-linked terrorists planned a chemical attack on Jordan's spy headquarters that could have killed 20,000 people, officials have said.[...]
The plot was reportedly hatched by al-Qaeda suspect Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi.

Washington has accused the 38-year-old Jordanian radical of masterminding a string of spectacular suicide bombings in Iraq. [...]

An official involved in the inquiry in Jordan told AFP news agency: "We found primary materials to make a chemical bomb which, if it had exploded, would have made nearly 20,000 deaths ... in an area of one square kilometre.

"The target of this bomb was the headquarters of the Intelligence Services," situated on a hill in the western suburb of Amman, he added.

The official said another operation planned by the network was to use "deadly gas against the US embassy and the prime minister's office in Amman ... and other public buildings in Jordan".

Jordan 'was chemical bomb target'
So, by endangering the safety of Arab people and governments is Al-Qaeda helping to bring about it's own destruction?
Is this a sign that attacks against the groups command structure have been successful?
(It seems to me the brains of the outfit must have stepped out for a moment tongue.gif )
What implications does this have for the wider War against Terrorism?
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GoAmerica
QUOTE(turnea @ Apr 17 2004, 09:06 PM)
So, by endangering the safety of Arab people and governments is Al-Qaeda helping to bring about it's own destruction?

Yes. In the view of the arab world, they are seeing that Osama really doesn't care about innocent arabs. Osama is not just attacking Americans and American interests, he is starting to attack his own people and that will lead to more hate towards Osama and eventually, Al-Queda's destruction
CruisingRam
Hmmm- This debate seems to be over a couple items- one of them if you are a pessimest, the other if you are in optimist, and the other, if you are a gung-ho Bush supporter, and the other if you are a detractor.

Though I would love to see Al-Quaida whither away and die, I think the entire post is either conservatives believing thier own press or eternal optimism in the face of horrible reality.

I certainly don't see the entire arab world uniting against Al-Quaida while aligning itself with the western powers- and on top of that, more attacks to me means they are diversifieing thier command structure and sticking with thier "game plan" even better. OBL has never been a "commander" as we think of as a general, but more of a figurehead, and as I understand it, does not even plan these things, even the big ones.

I compare him more to Jerry Falwell, preaching hate so the Timothy McVieghs can have a guidelines to hatch thier schemes.
Aquilla
QUOTE(turnea @ Apr 17 2004, 06:06 PM)
So, by endangering the safety of Arab people and governments is Al-Qaeda helping to bring about it's own destruction?
Is this a sign that attacks against the groups command structure have been successful?
(It seems to me the brains of the outfit must have stepped out for a moment tongue.gif )
What implications does this have for the wider War against Terrorism?

Interesting thoughts, Turnea. hmmm.gif

I think you might be on to something in that AQ has broken what amounted to a tacit "treaty" of sorts with the established Muslim world, most particularly Saudi Arabia. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. This most certainly isn't going to be helpful for AQ. I think it will tend to cause difficulties for them in obtaining harbor and funding for their operations. It could lead to even more significant problems for them that are addressed by answering your third question.

The key to fighting terrorism I think is human intelligence about the terrorists. That's an area that we've been improving in, but still are woefully inadequate. It is an area in which the Muslim world could assist us enormously. But, in order for that to happen, those governments must be solidly on our side and convince their people that aiding the US is in their best interests. Only when those governments consider AQ and like organizations to be a genuine threat to them will that happen. It seems to me that most certainly attacks against those governments and their people like the ones you cited is the most effective way to convince them of the threat. Moreso than any amount of diplomatic dialogue could do. I think in making those attacks, AQ has made a huge stategic blunder and that takes us to your second question.

One of the inherent problems with building an idealogical army using rhetoric based on hatred is that if you lose control of that "army", you really lose control. That may very well be happening in the Muslim terrorist organizations, most especially like AQ. It may very well be that their autonomous cells are acting on their own having lost contact with the command elements of AQ and are stepping well beyond the scope of their intended purpose. That could very well signal the death knell for AQ as we know it, leading to who knows what...... ermm.gif
Desert Resident
Al-Qaeda Self-Destruct?


So, by endangering the safety of Arab people and governments is Al-Qaeda helping to bring about it's own destruction?

If it were only that simple! Countries, leaders, and peoples supporting the WOT and collaborating with the U. S. are subject to Osama's retribution.

And the reason for:

Jordan's Spy Headquarters chemical attempt-an ally, Jordan's King Abdullah (didn't support the Iraq war) supports the WOT and has been a guest of President Bush/White House on many occasions after 9.11. He will also be of help in the Road Map To Peace if we ever succeed in getting the leaders back to the table.

Iraqi police stations being attacked because the Iraqi police are working with the coalition troops

The Riyadh bombing-(the majority of 9.11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.) And various members of the Saudi Royal Family have been guests at the Bush ranch in Crawford and also at the White House after 9.11. Finally, as with our 9.11 in our own backyard...the Saudi Royal Family's anger can step up some action on their part to back up their words of support in the WOT.

QUOTE
"We will confront terrorists with an iron hand," the country's ruler, King Fahd, told the weekly cabinet meeting. The king is elderly, and thought to be infirm. He is rarely seen but this his appearance at the cabinet meeting led the news on state TV and was on most of the front pages.

"The royal family is both livid and nervous," was the assessment of one senior western diplomat.

What, perhaps, makes the Saudi establishment most nervous of all is the attempt by al-Qaeda to exploit the piety of most Saudis and portray themselves and the true guardians of Islam.


And here are a few quotes and links to articles in Osama's words as to why some Arabs are infidels and on Osama's hit list. His appeal to Arabs in another article.

Osama criticizes U.N., Arabs November 04, 2001

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/2001/11/04/s...es/0304000b.htm

QUOTE
DOHA, NOV. 3. The suspected terrorist mastermind, Osama bin Laden, has said that the United Nations is ``an instrument of crimes'' against Muslims and that leaders of Arab U.N. members are ``infidels''.

``Those who want to solve our problems at the U.N. are hypocrites; our suffering is caused by the U.N.,'' he said. ``Who issued the Palestine partition resolution in 1947? The U.N. Those who claim to be Arab leaders and whose countries are U.N. members are infidels who have renounced the Koran and the prophet's (Mohammad's) sayings.''


Osama urges Arabs to expel US 06 January 2004

http://www.dawn.com/2004/01/06/int3.htm

QUOTE
BAGHDAD, Jan 5: As the six-month countdown to Iraqi self-rule began on Monday, a message from Osama bin Laden called on Arabs to evict US troops from the oil-rich country.

In the tape, which British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said was safe to assume genuine, Osama called on Arabs to rise up against America and force it to retreat from Iraq.

The taped message, aired on Al-Jazeera, warned that unless the United States was stopped in Iraq, America would go on to occupy Saudi Arabia and the entire oil-rich Gulf region.
turnea
QUOTE(Desert Resident @ Apr 18 2004, 03:27 AM)
So, by endangering the safety of Arab people and governments is Al-Qaeda helping to bring about it's own destruction?

If it were only that simple!  Countries, leaders, and peoples supporting the WOT and collaborating with the U. S. are subject to Osama's retribution.

Don't get me wrong, this is something I am well aware of. What the question asks is whether this is a counter-productive tactic for Al-Qaeda. I believe it is...

More on that today (unfortunately)...
QUOTE
A suicide car bomber destroyed a Saudi security forces building in the capital on Wednesday, killing a senior officer and at least nine other people.

Medical and security sources in Riyadh said more than 60 people were wounded in what an official said was the sixth attempt to mount such a "terrorist attack" in a week. Five others had been foiled.[...]
The kingdom, a key U.S. ally and the world's largest oil exporter, is battling a tide of Islamist militancy linked to Saudi-born Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network, which Washington accuses of the September 11, 2001 attacks on U.S. cities.

Last year, suicide bombs killed 50 people in Riyadh.[...]
Local people living nearby were shocked: "What can I say? We were sitting minding our own business in our homes when we felt the force of the explosion. We don't know what happened. Houses fell on our children and women," one man said.

"What sin have we committed? These people don't fear God."

Suicide bomber kills 10, wounds 60 in Saudi
These attacks, rather than scaring or harming the Saudi government (hint: those bombs aren't getting anywhere near the royals...)
have simply angered them and the Saudi people. Al-Qaeda is merely digging into their own base of support.
still more...
QUOTE
A series of bomb attacks in the Basra area of southern Iraq has killed at least 68 people and injured many more.

The first blasts - apparently suicide bombings - occurred outside three police stations in Basra city centre during Wednesday's morning rush hour.

Many of the dead and injured were children travelling in passing buses on their way to school.

A fourth attack south of Basra is said to have killed three Iraqis and wounded five UK soldiers. [...]
A wounded Iraqi told Reuters news agency that he heard a huge explosion as he stood at the door of his house.

"I looked around and saw my neighbour lying dead on the floor, torn apart," he said.

"I saw a minibus full of children on fire - 15 of the 18 passengers were killed and three badly wounded."

Scores killed in Iraqi bombings
This is the face Al-Qaeda is making for itself in the Arab world, that's sure to help recruitment dry.gif

Iraqis overwhelmingly oppose attacks of the Iraqi police, Al-Qaeda is only making themselves less popular with each bombing...
QUOTE(Aquilla)
One of the inherent problems with building an idealogical army using rhetoric based on hatred is that if you lose control of that "army", you really lose control. That may very well be happening in the Muslim terrorist organizations, most especially like AQ. It may very well be that their autonomous cells are acting on their own having lost contact with the command elements of AQ and are stepping well beyond the scope of their intended purpose. That could very well signal the death knell for AQ as we know it, leading to who knows what......

Exactly what I'm getting at, it's just a hypothesis but it has its merits. As Al-Qaeda becomes more chaotic, it is less effective. online2long.gif
Desert Resident
QUOTE
(Desert Resident @ Apr 18 2004, 03:27 AM)
So, by endangering the safety of Arab people and governments is Al-Qaeda helping to bring about it's own destruction?

If it were only that simple! Countries, leaders, and peoples supporting the WOT and collaborating with the U. S. are subject to Osama's retribution. 


QUOTE
Don't get me wrong, this is something I am well aware of. What the question asks is whether this is a counter-productive tactic for Al-Qaeda. I believe it is... turnea


Oh..sorry turnea Yes and No. Yes, that al Qaeda's attacking the "infidels" will turn a majority of our allies who are disbelievers into believers that terrorism has no boundaries and thus no country or group is immune from the terrorists' vengeance.

No, there will be those countries or groups who, because they are easily intimated by the terrorists, will withdraw their public and active support in the WOT. In addition, those countries and people who have been on the fence may decide not to take a stand on terrorism and remain silent out of fear of terrorists' attacks.

No matter how you slice it, the terrorists' world is growing smaller and smaller, but this war on terror is an ongoing process with many ups and downs to follow.
GoAmerica
QUOTE(turnea @ Apr 21 2004, 11:18 AM)
More on that today (unfortunately)...
QUOTE
A suicide car bomber destroyed a Saudi security forces building in the capital on Wednesday, killing a senior officer and at least nine other people.

Medical and security sources in Riyadh said more than 60 people were wounded in what an official said was the sixth attempt to mount such a "terrorist attack" in a week. Five others had been foiled.[...]
The kingdom, a key U.S. ally and the world's largest oil exporter, is battling a tide of Islamist militancy linked to Saudi-born Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network, which Washington accuses of the September 11, 2001 attacks on U.S. cities.

Last year, suicide bombs killed 50 people in Riyadh.[...]
Local people living nearby were shocked: "What can I say? We were sitting minding our own business in our homes when we felt the force of the explosion. We don't know what happened. Houses fell on our children and women," one man said.

"What sin have we committed? These people don't fear God."

Suicide bomber kills 10, wounds 60 in Saudi
These attacks, rather than scaring or harming the Saudi government (hint: those bombs aren't getting anywhere near the royals...) have simply angered them and the Saudi people. Al-Qaeda is merely digging into their own base of support.

The attack in Saudi Arabia is showing once again that Al-Queda is gonna keep on killing it's own people besides just American soldiers and other american interests.

20 children were killed along with others in Basra....how heartless these thugs are
turnea
Keeping the evidence rolling in...
QUOTE
many Saudis consider the attack here on Wednesday a shocking and unsettling crime, especially since the attackers chose for their first major government target an office building that virtually every adult male must visit to collect a license or car plates.[...]
Fowziyah Abukhalid, a sociology professor at the university, has noticed a parallel phenomenon among her students. "Many young women are saying `My God, bin Laden is so charming,' or `My God, bin Laden is so handsome,' " she said. "He is politically appealing, that is why they view him as handsome."

Such feelings are volatile though, depending on whether the attacks are inside or outside the kingdom. "People literally change their minds and feelings every day about bin Laden," Mr. Oteibi said.

Saudis Support a Jihad in Iraq, Not Back Home
A continuation of these attacks on Arab nations will only force them to confront the true nature of terrorism. That can only hurt Al-Qaeda.
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