Full Version: Proof of Iraqi WMD & al-Qaida Ties?
Just in the news, this article by NewsMax.com claims the following:
Jordan's King Abdullah confirmed that the vehicles came from Syria's border but was careful to say he was confident Syria's president, President Bashir Assad, wasn't aware of the plot. About a year ago David Kay said a lot of vehicle activity was detected from Iraq to Syria, but he returned from Iraq and told the Senate Armed Services Committee we got it "wrong."
The U.S. alleges Syria has WMD capability and aids terrorist groups like Hizballah, HAMAS, and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Much as I'd like to think this would explain where the al-Qaida operatives got their WMD from I don't put much stock on anything John Bolton claims.
Question for debate: Is this proof that Iraq possessed WMD leading up to the invasion?
QUOTE
Two members of an al-Qaida cell connected to top terror master Abu Musab al-Zarqawi have been caught in Jordan with chemical weapons and poisonous gas for a planned attack that Jordanian officials say would have killed up to 20,000 people.
The officials told the London-based newspaper al-Hayat on Friday that the al-Qaida plotters planned to launch a WMD attack against a Jordanian Military Intelligence installation, the U.S. Embassy in Amman and a government building in the country.
According to the Israeli newspaper Maariv, the al-Qaida terrorists managed to smuggle three cars packed with explosives into Amman. Jordanian security forces found a chemical charge in one vehicle.
"The bomb, had it been detonated, could have affected people in a one-kilometer radius and cause the deaths of up to 20,000 people," Jordanian officials told Maariv.
According to United Press International, the al-Qaida car was intercepted just 75 miles from the Syrian border and "carried explosives, a chemical bomb and poisonous gas."
The discovery of the al-Qaida WMD plot is sure to renew speculation that some of Saddam Hussein's missing weapons of mass destruction were hidden in Syria before the U.S. attacked in March 2003, and have now found their way into al-Qaida's hands.
As of Saturday morning, the White House had not commented on the al-Qaida WMD plot and its possible ties to Iraq.
The officials told the London-based newspaper al-Hayat on Friday that the al-Qaida plotters planned to launch a WMD attack against a Jordanian Military Intelligence installation, the U.S. Embassy in Amman and a government building in the country.
According to the Israeli newspaper Maariv, the al-Qaida terrorists managed to smuggle three cars packed with explosives into Amman. Jordanian security forces found a chemical charge in one vehicle.
"The bomb, had it been detonated, could have affected people in a one-kilometer radius and cause the deaths of up to 20,000 people," Jordanian officials told Maariv.
According to United Press International, the al-Qaida car was intercepted just 75 miles from the Syrian border and "carried explosives, a chemical bomb and poisonous gas."
The discovery of the al-Qaida WMD plot is sure to renew speculation that some of Saddam Hussein's missing weapons of mass destruction were hidden in Syria before the U.S. attacked in March 2003, and have now found their way into al-Qaida's hands.
As of Saturday morning, the White House had not commented on the al-Qaida WMD plot and its possible ties to Iraq.
Jordan's King Abdullah confirmed that the vehicles came from Syria's border but was careful to say he was confident Syria's president, President Bashir Assad, wasn't aware of the plot. About a year ago David Kay said a lot of vehicle activity was detected from Iraq to Syria, but he returned from Iraq and told the Senate Armed Services Committee we got it "wrong."
The U.S. alleges Syria has WMD capability and aids terrorist groups like Hizballah, HAMAS, and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Much as I'd like to think this would explain where the al-Qaida operatives got their WMD from I don't put much stock on anything John Bolton claims.
Question for debate: Is this proof that Iraq possessed WMD leading up to the invasion?
QUOTE
Is this proof that Iraq possessed WMD leading up to the invasion?
It is hardly proof of anything except the fact that al-queda is getting well equiped by someone and we must find out who it is before its too late. I am sure we have intelligence people working on this case right now trying to find out if Syria is in any way responsible for the harboring of WMD's and al-queda. This is disturbing news without any doubt and i am glad the terrorists were thwarted.
I hope it is not too bold to say...but if in fact ties between al-queda and iraq are made OR WMD are found in iraq or syria linked to saddam hussein...all i can say is Bush for 4 more years.
Is this proof that Iraq possessed WMD leading up to the invasion?
No, as I have underlined in the NewsMax article...they say this recent event is sure to renew speculation about Saddam's missing WMD hidden in Syria. IMO this is now according to current media information available PURE SPECULATION.
Read many, many additional media articles and have provided some quotes and links...all of which do not venture in speculation as NewsMax. And, I am not saying this speculation couldn't end up being true...just not from what information is published now do I see any connection.
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/printpage...9276191,00.html
QUOTE
The discovery of the al-Qaida WMD plot is sure to renew speculation that some of Saddam Hussein's missing weapons of mass destruction were hidden in Syria before the U.S. attacked in March 2003, and have now found their way into al-Qaida's hands. NewsMax.com
No, as I have underlined in the NewsMax article...they say this recent event is sure to renew speculation about Saddam's missing WMD hidden in Syria. IMO this is now according to current media information available PURE SPECULATION.
Read many, many additional media articles and have provided some quotes and links...all of which do not venture in speculation as NewsMax. And, I am not saying this speculation couldn't end up being true...just not from what information is published now do I see any connection.
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/printpage...9276191,00.html
QUOTE
Jordan terror attack thwarted
From correspondents in Amman
14apr04
THE arrest of a suspected terror group in Jordan thwarted an unprecedented attack that could have killed thousands of civilians, Jordan's King Abdullah II said today. The king said the country had "lived through an extremely delicate situation in recent days... but divine protection has thwarted the plans of these criminals and saved the lives of thousands of civilians in what would have been a crime never before seen in the kingdom".
From correspondents in Amman
14apr04
THE arrest of a suspected terror group in Jordan thwarted an unprecedented attack that could have killed thousands of civilians, Jordan's King Abdullah II said today. The king said the country had "lived through an extremely delicate situation in recent days... but divine protection has thwarted the plans of these criminals and saved the lives of thousands of civilians in what would have been a crime never before seen in the kingdom".
QUOTE
http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2004/04/15/jordan_says_huge_terror_plot_foiled/
Jordan says huge terror plot foiled
By Suleiman al-Khalidi, Reuters, 4/15/2004
AMMAN, Jordan -- Jordan's King Abdullah said yesterday that security forces had prevented a terrorist group from attacking public places and saved ''thousands of lives."
Jordan says huge terror plot foiled
By Suleiman al-Khalidi, Reuters, 4/15/2004
AMMAN, Jordan -- Jordan's King Abdullah said yesterday that security forces had prevented a terrorist group from attacking public places and saved ''thousands of lives."
QUOTE
AP , AMMAN, JORDAN
Monday, Apr 12, 2004,Page 6
Jordanian authorities have nab-bed several more suspected terrorists and seized two cars filled with explosives, the state television reported on Saturday, marking the latest arrests involving a militant cell believed linked to al-Qaeda that targeted public institutions and the US Embassy.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/arch...4/12/2003136374
Jordan Television, quoting an unnamed security source, carried a vaguely worded statement that said authorities were able to "foil the subversive and terrorist attempts which targeted the security and safety of the country."
It said the two cars, which authorities had previously announced were at large, had been seized with the explosives and weapons inside them.
Security officials said that initial information indicated that more than two vehicles -- possibly as many as four -- had been seized. They declined to provide other details, but said the vehicles -- containing weapons, explosives and raw material that could be used in bomb making -- were apprehended in sweeps of Nuaimeh and Huwarah, villages outside Irbid, 90km north of the Jordanian capital Amman.
The statement reassured citizens that the security situation was "under control" and suggested that the police sweep remained under way. "Security forces ... are still completing the operation," it said.
The government said on March 31 days ago that several terror suspects were detained when their vehicle, filled with explosives and detonators, was nabbed in a Jordanian town near the Syrian border. It said three other suspects in two other cars remained at large and that search was under way to apprehend them.
The suspects detained last week have confessed to plotting a series of attacks in the moderate kingdom, the Jordanian officials have said.
Monday, Apr 12, 2004,Page 6
Jordanian authorities have nab-bed several more suspected terrorists and seized two cars filled with explosives, the state television reported on Saturday, marking the latest arrests involving a militant cell believed linked to al-Qaeda that targeted public institutions and the US Embassy.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/arch...4/12/2003136374
Jordan Television, quoting an unnamed security source, carried a vaguely worded statement that said authorities were able to "foil the subversive and terrorist attempts which targeted the security and safety of the country."
It said the two cars, which authorities had previously announced were at large, had been seized with the explosives and weapons inside them.
Security officials said that initial information indicated that more than two vehicles -- possibly as many as four -- had been seized. They declined to provide other details, but said the vehicles -- containing weapons, explosives and raw material that could be used in bomb making -- were apprehended in sweeps of Nuaimeh and Huwarah, villages outside Irbid, 90km north of the Jordanian capital Amman.
The statement reassured citizens that the security situation was "under control" and suggested that the police sweep remained under way. "Security forces ... are still completing the operation," it said.
The government said on March 31 days ago that several terror suspects were detained when their vehicle, filled with explosives and detonators, was nabbed in a Jordanian town near the Syrian border. It said three other suspects in two other cars remained at large and that search was under way to apprehend them.
The suspects detained last week have confessed to plotting a series of attacks in the moderate kingdom, the Jordanian officials have said.
First of all, this is a NewsMax story, so it might be best to wait until this is covered by a credible media outlet (and thanks to Desert Resident for coming up with a few - none of which mention Hussein). Second, Syria has its own chemical weapons capability and, unlike Iraq, has a history of aiding and abetting terrorist organizations. Third, even if weapons had been smuggled out of Iraq (which I tend to doubt - and for which there isn't a shred of proof), there is still nothing to indicate any kind of tie between Iraq and al-Qaeda.
So far, I'd consider this a non-story - at least in relation to somehow dragging Iraq into it. It is amusing that NewsMax suggests that this will "renew speculation that some of Saddam Hussein's missing weapons of mass destruction were hidden in Syria" - while they seem to be the only ones indulging in such specuation.
Nice try by the right-wing spin machine, but no kewpie doll.
So far, I'd consider this a non-story - at least in relation to somehow dragging Iraq into it. It is amusing that NewsMax suggests that this will "renew speculation that some of Saddam Hussein's missing weapons of mass destruction were hidden in Syria" - while they seem to be the only ones indulging in such specuation.
Nice try by the right-wing spin machine, but no kewpie doll.
QUOTE(Sleeper @ Apr 18 2004, 10:56 PM)
I didn't realize the BBC, reuters, and msnbc were right wing spin machines...
Um, they're not. Thanks for underlining the point I was making. This is "the same story", but not the same spin: not one of the three sources you cite (nor any of the three Desert Resident cited) tries in any way to link this attack with WMDs spirited out of Iraq prior to our invasion. That right-wing spin is only being applied by the right-wing spin machine, NewsMax. So far. I haven't seen the Fox News coverage of this yet...
Lets be clear here:
All three of the reputable news sources listed above stated the same thing. That men who were suspected of having links to al Qaeda were arrested. All three say that 'according to unnamed Jordanian sources', the terrorists had bombmaking equipment and enough chemical weapons to kill 20,000 people.
No confirmation has come of any chemical weapons at all, and forgive me if I do not take 'unnamed jordanian sources' as gospel. No indication of what kind of chemical wepons were taken, what materiels, or how they cam to that unlikely number.
Other news sources, like the CBC for example, listed the arrests but did not even mention the 'unnamed, unconfirmed, possible unknown chemical threat'.
NONE of these sources even mentioned the word Iraq.
Thus, even if this chemical weapon exists, which though it may well, we simply have no idea: the concept that this somehow 'proves' (as your original question asked) ANYTHING involving Iraq is absurd.
All this 'proves' is that some people have been arrested in Jordan under suspicion of terrorist activities. That is all we know for sure. I would also like to point out that Jordan has a habit of exaggerating their claims on arrests with international significance in order to appeal to the world press, such as their grossly exaggerated claim last month to have stopped a series of car-bombings headed for US interests in the UK.
All three of the reputable news sources listed above stated the same thing. That men who were suspected of having links to al Qaeda were arrested. All three say that 'according to unnamed Jordanian sources', the terrorists had bombmaking equipment and enough chemical weapons to kill 20,000 people.
No confirmation has come of any chemical weapons at all, and forgive me if I do not take 'unnamed jordanian sources' as gospel. No indication of what kind of chemical wepons were taken, what materiels, or how they cam to that unlikely number.
Other news sources, like the CBC for example, listed the arrests but did not even mention the 'unnamed, unconfirmed, possible unknown chemical threat'.
NONE of these sources even mentioned the word Iraq.
Thus, even if this chemical weapon exists, which though it may well, we simply have no idea: the concept that this somehow 'proves' (as your original question asked) ANYTHING involving Iraq is absurd.
All this 'proves' is that some people have been arrested in Jordan under suspicion of terrorist activities. That is all we know for sure. I would also like to point out that Jordan has a habit of exaggerating their claims on arrests with international significance in order to appeal to the world press, such as their grossly exaggerated claim last month to have stopped a series of car-bombings headed for US interests in the UK.
Even if those arrested in Syria had WMD, and even if those WMD formerly belonged to the regime of Saddam Hussein, has it occurred to anyone that Saddam may not have given the weapons to AQ-related groups, but that they went in and took them in the chaos that has largely reigned since Saddam was toppled?
QUOTE(Julian @ Apr 20 2004, 12:17 PM)
Even if those arrested in Syria had WMD, and even if those WMD formerly belonged to the regime of Saddam Hussein, has it occurred to anyone that Saddam may not have given the weapons to AQ-related groups, but that they went in and took them in the chaos that has largely reigned since Saddam was toppled?
IF this incredibly unlikely, unedidenced scenario turns out to be true, has it also occurred to anyone that these weapons would NOT have ended up in the hands of terrorists had the Us NOT invaded Iraq?
Has it occurred to anyone that even in the event that this bit of right-wing supposition turns out to be true, it then becomes one of the MOST powerful arguments against the US war in Iraq? One of the main arguments often used but never justified by the right is how the war in Iraq somehow 'made the world safer'. Even before this, nobody could actually explain how the world was safer, but they certainly liked to assert it. Now it seem that the US invasion of Iraq directly made the world a much less safe place.
Go Bush.
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