Sunday on Meet the Press John Kerry promised to turn over all his military records from Vietnam. Now it appears he has changed his mind and is refusing to do so, thus giving the Republicans another campaign issue. (Click here for the Boston Globe article)

When Bush was questioned about his National Guard service earlier this year he released all of his military records. Wesley Clark also released all of his military records during his campaign. Now the Republicans are saying Kerry must do the same.

Why won’t Kerry release his war records? There have been disturbing accusations (which won’t be repeated here) from Vietnam Veterans Against Kerry and other groups about the circumstances under which Kerry was awarded the Silver Star as well as other conduct of Kerry’s during the Vietnam War. I never gave much credence to these statements, but it now appears that Kerry may have something to hide.

Questions for debate:

1) Do you think John Kerry has anything to hide regarding his conduct in Vietnam?
2) Should Kerry keep his promise and release his war records as Bush and Clark did?
3) Is flip-flopping on this issue going to damage Kerry's chance for election in November?

No, Yes, No.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/a...y_purple_hearts

Flip-Flop Kerry is back!


Yes. Maybe he was a participant in the slaughter of innocent civilians or maybe he made up all that garbage about his injuries.


Yes. If he starts acting like a hypocrite, he will lose votes very quickly

Somewhere GA you just didnt get it. The records have been released. It was only a matter of a few hour confusion this morn.

From the Yahoo article:

I love how they leave his commanding officer off that list...



Kerry Faces Purple Heart Questions



Kerry's military records are still not available, so we can wait and see on that. He did say on Meet the Press that anyone was free to come to his office in Boston and get them, but when someone showed up, they were refused.

As always, the proof is in the pudding...nothing on his site yet...

I love how all the Republicans on AD are ready to crucify Kerry when it has taken him what 3 days and the records aren't posted yet? Oh man, we have a national crisis on our hands. Don't even get me started on things Bush has withheld.

1) Do you think John Kerry has anything to hide regarding his conduct in Vietnam?
No, why would he? There is no evidence to support any such assertion. The military hands out awards such as purple hearts, etc. Last time I checked you don't nominate yourself for a purple heart or silver star, you earn it.

2) Should Kerry keep his promise and release his war records as Bush and Clark did?

Yes, and it appears he is doing so, much to the chagrin of Republicans hoping to make an issue of it.

3) Is flip-flopping on this issue going to damage Kerry's chance for election in November?

I would hardly call it Flip-flopping. Sunday was only 3 days ago, but apparently that isn't quick enough for Republicans. How long did the Bush administration obstruct the 9/11 commission's investigations? Oh that's right, they are still doing it.

Edited for spelling.

Delete.

Well Amlord, Fox news must have got it wrong then in this report:

WASHINGTON — Amid questions about his military records, John Kerry's (search) campaign on Tuesday provided documentation of Vietnam War injuries that included shrapnel wounds to his arms, legs and buttocks that earned him three Purple Hearts (search).

Meehan gave The Associated Press 13 pages that included documentation for the Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts. The Boston Globe obtained some of the records last year for an extensive series on Kerry.

The documents also included declassified reports that briefly explain the injuries that led to Kerry's Purple Heart awards. They show Kerry had shrapnel wounds in his left thigh after his boat came under intense fire on Feb. 20, 1969, and he suffered shrapnel wounds in his left buttock and contusions on his right forearm when a mine detonated close to his boat on March 13, 1969.

The campaign could not locate a similar report for Kerry's original Purple Heart. As evidence that Kerry was wounded, Meehan showed The Associated Press a "Sick Call Treatment Record" from Kerry's personal files that included a brief written note dated Dec. 3, 1968, and stamped from the naval support facility at Cam Ranh Bay.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,117706,00.html

1) Do you think John Kerry has anything to hide regarding his conduct in Vietnam?

Well...probably no more than George W. Bush did in Texas and Alabama. Hate to remind my Democrat friends but I will anyway....what goes around eventually comes around!

And, yes I am well aware that George W. Bush was no war hero like Kerry and that he was hiding out in the National Guard instead of fighting a real war or taking an extended vacation in Canada. I always regretted that I didn't ask the distinguished DNC Chairman, Terry and our outstanding movie director/producer, Michael Moore two questions: Why in the world would a deserter/AWOL return to the base for a dental exam? Why didn't the base authorities detain him and arrest him on the spot?

2) Should Kerry keep his promise and release his war records as Bush and Clark did?

Sure....just as others have had to do to get the clamouring behind them so they can move on with real issues.

3) Is flip-flopping on this issue going to damage Kerry's chance for election in November?

Friends...there are more important flip-flop issues Kerry has to dispel than assertions that disgruntled veterans have brought up about his wounds and his record-breaking achievement in being awarded so many medals in such a brief period. Again, somehow, we just can't escape the nostalgia of Viet Nam while Kerry is on board the train of the 21 Century. And besides, didn't he throw those medals over the wall? Oh, that's right...he changed his mind!

I am always baffled at why people that talk about Kerry being a war protestor as if he's not being patriotic. He's exercising his right to free speech. This war kind of reminds of the general under Hitler that said that the people don't want war but if you strike fear into them and accuse dissenters of having no patriotism, you can do anything you want in a war machine.

But back to the matter at hand, I think this is a nonissue. To put it shortly Kerry went to Vietnam, people will see the records. George W. Bush ducked out of Vietnam because of his rich family connections. The reason why he probably could get his dental exam was because of the lax policy on the children of the rich. But that's just my opinion, he's still a dodger and can't be compared to people in the guard now. At the same time, it's okay to be a dodger, but this country seems so ignorant in that anybody who doesn't want to fight is seen as being unpatriotic, cowardly, communistic, etc., etc.

Kerry said already available on Meet the Press this Sunday.


Perhaps we'll get the usual Kerry line of something like, "I actually was going to make them available before I decided not to make them available, but now they are available again."

Looks like John Kerry DID post them yesterday...

John Kerry's Military Records

Perhaps it was unintentional, but when I typed "medical records" into the search box, I came up with alot of results... so I sorted by date, hoping to get the records on top (since they were posted yesterday...).

Even doing so, Kerry's medical records come up 55th chronologically, but they are there.

My apologies, John

(Actually, they aren't all that difficult to find manually, but they are not readily apparent, either...)

EDIT: actually, he posted them today, April 21st.

I think the point of his question is that anyone with knowledge of the act can submit somebody for an award. So it's not exactly the nebulous, vague 'military' who submits recommendations. Remember Chief of Naval Operations nominee ADM. Boorda?
I could regale you with many stories and accounts of soldiers being awarded the Combat Infantrymans Badge for Operation Urgent Fury in Grenada, when they never left Ft. Bragg. Or the same award for units in Desert Storm who were held in Corps reserve, and never crossed north out of Saudi Arabia.
I think this is all fair game to be investigated, and am getting somewhat tired of any questions into his military past being portrayed as questioning his patriotism.

No, he isn't hiding anything, he already told us that he participated in war crimes in Vietnam.Yeah, if he said he would, he should.Ummm...yeah. Unless the ABB crowd is so anti-Bush that they don't care how much of a two sided liberal Kerry is, he'll be hurt on election day.

CP

Fixed quotes -Amlord

Let us get real...being a deserter or AWOL is a crime and can be punishable by death.....rich daddy or not. And let's not forget that George W. Bush was not the only son of a rich daddy to serve in a war whether it be the National Guard or any other branch of service. And, Inner City Blues, those are my sentiments exactly when the Democrats attached all of the above labels to our President George W. Bush because he chose to serve in the Texas National Guard instead of the Navy, Air Force, Army or Marines in Viet Nam.

With Republicans poised to criticize Kerry for not releasing all of his military records, the campaign decided Tuesday afternoon to post the records on its Web site to diffuse the issue. They are expected to be available by Wednesday evening.

Today is the day for the medical records posting to Kerry's web site for those that care. Personally, I think this episode is a non-issue. IMO, it will not be the issue to impact Kerry's chances of winning the election as the American voters will have many relevant and current issues with Kerry to sort out without resorting to a done deal that took place more than 30 years ago.

Unlike President Bush, "wanna be President" Kerry is presented with criticism from fellow veteran John O'Neill who served with Kerry, in regards to Kerry's 1971 assertions of war crimes.

Fellow vet blasts Kerry's antiwar comments
Democrat's campaign to release military records
Wednesday, April 21, 2004 Posted: 7:45 AM EDT (1145 GMT)
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/20/...tary/index.html

Hmm... is this the same John O'Neill who the right-wingers trot out every time they want to sully Kerry's war experiences?



"Colson" mentioned above is Chuck Colson, who you might remember was Nixon's White House counsel. The "White House" was the Nixon White House. Not the Bush (either of them) White House. In other words, they've been trotting ONE GUY out for 30 years now.

Whoopee!

So we have a few haters who are probably just jealous of Kerry's achievements. It doesn't matter what Mr. O'Neill think or says, the bottom line is Kerry received those purple haerts and nobody can take it away from him. I'm neither Democrat or Republican, but I think the Republicans need to lay off the man when it comes to his time served in the Army.

Its really funny, here we have Bush, Cheney (wannabe military men), two men who never saw an ounce of combat and their campaign is really trying to tear up Kerry's military record. This whole issue about Kerry's military record is just a waste of time.

Republicans are saying he flip flopped again on releasing his records, my question to them is WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??
They were always available!! Pick another issue!

What a non-issue and a waste of time.

How many days has it been since he declared he would make the records known to the public? 3 or 4 or 5 days?

Boy, how long did it take to get Bush National Guard records. Must have been more than 5 days.

And don't forget all those other records Congress has been trying to get from Bushs adminstration the past year or so.

Kerry Reneges on War Records Promise?

Let us see what RNC Chairman Gillespie said today on CNN's Inside Politics about Kerry's war records instead of listening to the armchair pundits or biased interpretations.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0404/21/ip.00.html




Sure beats DNC Terry's assertion that Bush was a deserter. And, what a cry baby! Eat your heart out and choke on it Terry!

If Terry McAuliffe is a crybaby, then Ed Gillespie is a whiner.

Kerry's most harrowing experience came during the nearly five months when he commanded a swiftboat along Vietnam's Mekong Delta. The future Massachusetts senator was commended for gallantry, heroism and valor during the tour, which was cut short when Kerry was wounded three times and sent back to the United States.

Throughout his four years of active duty, Kerry's superiors gave him glowing evaluations, citing his maturity, intelligence and immaculate appearance. He was recommended for early promotion, and when he left the Navy in 1970 to run for Congress, his commanding officer said it was the Navy's loss.

The lowest marks Kerry earned were the equivalent of average in military bearing, reliability and initiative. But narrative comments from his commanding officers said he was diplomatic, charismatic, decisive and well-liked by his men.

"Intelligent, mature and rich in educational background and experience, Ens Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without question one of the most promising," wrote Capt. Allen Slifer, Kerry's supervisor aboard the USS Gridley, where he served his first tour in Vietnam but was far removed from combat as an electrical officer.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040421_1700.html

When are the Kerry-haters going to learn that trying to compare his military record with Bush's shoddy one is like sending the junior varsity up against the Los Angeles Lakers. It's gonna be ugly.

Next?

DR



It is too bad that Gillespie doesn't follow his own advice. How many times did it take to get the majority of Bushs National Guard record.

Yes- the hypocrisy of the right for even bringing up this issue is silly- you have one person with an honorable record that nearly gave the ultimate sacrifice- and the other you have a person of privilage using his status to avoid the same level of service, you have one that IS releasing his records, in a reasonable timetable, regardless of the fact that it is a horrendous invasion of his privacy- and the other that has repeatedly switched stories, explanations- and the situation is still constroversial and murky.

Despite my fiscal conservativism- it is this flaming hypocrisy that keeps me from ever identifying with the right wing in this country.

Ah, our fellow Democrats and Bush critics' rhetoric is so uplifting, positive, and they always see the cup as half full instead of half empty! Didn't realize there were so many retired and former military snobs out there...reminds me of my college days!

What goes around comes around in the wheel of life, so grab onto those seat belts because we Republicans are going to give our fellow Democrats some free lessons in civility, debating the message and not the messenger, and exorcize the Howard Dean out them.

As I said before, Kerry's and Bush's military service records of 30 years ago should be a non issue in this election and so should Viet Nam! That is if the "good ole days" gang want to move forward in the 21st Century with the rest of main stream America.

I think RNC Chairman Gillespie's sign off on the issue will be a signal to the Republicans to drop it...and I surely hope they, and the media, heed his advice because it makes for conversation. We have so many vital and worthwhile issues facing our country, and the American voters, that will have a far greater impact on the quality of lives than rehashing Kerry's more than 30-year-old Viet Nam service records.

This is my problem with Republicans, they always seem to following signals, speeches, rhetoric. Whenever you hear one talk, it's the same way for all as if there are no different perspectives.

I think they're trying to make an issue about the release of his records which there is not. Just because it took a day or two longer than they wantd, they felt this would be a political jump-off to scream hypocrisy.

The reason why this is different with George W. Bush is because he comes from a wing of people that use the military as a vote-getter, "Don't suport our war, don't support out troops then." It's just total twaddle, that's why his military record even came up. Let's say Kerry never served, it wouldn't matter because he's not so gung-ho about using military force.

The right wing, especially the religious right just oozes hypocrisy. The way the use Jesus to support wars smacks of the Crusades. Likewise, the way they are so uppity when it comes to morals smacks of the Jewish temples during Jesus's time when the reason the temples went in the wrong direction was their focus on purity.

The records I want to see released are the numerous one's that are given the "national security" stamp when they are nothing more than a smoke screen for underhanded and shady dealings on the part of the administration.

Yeah because they've done such a great job of that since they came into office, right? or maybe you've forgotten:

Christine Whitman, General Shineski, Larry Lindsey, Robert Foster, Joseph Wilson, Paul O'Neill, and Richard Clark.

Yep, this administration sure sticks sticks to the issues in a civil manner. They would certainly never attack the person delivering the message, calling every one them "disgruntled" or "liars" or even "crazy". And of course, they would never do anything as underhanded as to target a person's spouse (Valerie Plame) because they can't really come up with anything on the employee. Nah, not this administration.

Yes indeed, Desert Resident, grab onto those seatbelts, because you and you're fellow Bush supporters are most certainly being taken for a ride.

1) Do you think John Kerry has anything to hide regarding his conduct in Vietnam?

No, rather than have anything in his Viet Nam service to hide, Kerry and his campaign team weren't prepared for the typical election year political fall out. They could have saved themselves this non-issue fall out nonsense if the DNC Chairman had been on the ball and strongly advised Kerry's team to resurrect his 30-year-old records at the time he elected to promote and lead the "deserter" campaign against President Bush.

2) Should Kerry keep his promise and release his war records as Bush and Clark did?

The Kerry team has complied. Now will someone please inform the media, and especially CNN, that "it's a done deal" as they are sometimes slow in dropping closed or non issues.

3) Is flip-flopping on this issue going to damage Kerry's chance for election in November?

No more than flip-flopping on other issues. IMO Kerry's downfall, so far, is that he has spent entirely too many months focusing on mud slinging/doom and gloom assertions and predictions against Bush. Perhaps if he had chosen the high road and focused more on defining himself and what his agenda is, the voters wouldn't still be scratching their heads in wonderment and waiting for the REAL John F. Kerry to please stand up! So, until Kerry gives enough people believable and substantial reasons to vote for him...they won't!

Well, the Kerry campaign could be more truthful in regards to his service, not take credit for the actions of another:



Discrepancies noted in Kerry's record

Take a look at the following article published in Time Magazine. Time Article.

The article albeit short does a pretty good job of summarizing his record. As you can clearly see all of the medals were in fact earned. Below is a quote from the article detailing the major awards.

Note the following items of interest:

12/68 - his arm was scratched.
2/69 - schrapnel in thigh.
3/69 - no explanation...other than it earned him a ride home after only 4 months service.

Curious that a Kerry-friendly magazine such as Time would be silent about that third (presumably self-reported) injury.

This guy's credibility keeps going south.

That large group of his fellow officers that gave a press conference today will cause old Hairy Kerry a lot of heartburn as the campaign moves forward.

When Senator McCain was running against George W. Bush in the Republican Presidential primaries, there was a whispering campaign undertaken in South Carolina that since McCain had been a prisoner of the Vietnamese, his experience might have affected his mind and that could be a problem in the Presidency (does anyone remember the movie "The Manchurian Candidate"?). McCain was understandably quite angry about this at the time. Certainly John McCain's mental status should not have been called into question as he is a very successful and well-liked United States senator who clearly loves our country. The GOP has no scruples when it comes to casting these kinds of aspersions on the opposition, even within its own party.

I think it's true that the Kerry campaign had no idea to what lengths the Republicans would go to discredit what he felt to be a sterling combat service record.

What a shame it would be if voters decided to let this kind of tactic decide for them that Kerry would somehow be less of a leader than George W. Bush.

Personally, I think that Kerry has provided everything requested. And by and large, the veterans who are dissing Kerry are, surprise! surprise!, Republicans anyway.

Senator Kerry and his campaign organization would do well to remember this quotation:

"If I were to try to read, much less answer, all the attacks made on me, this shop might as well be closed for any other business. I do the very best I know how - the very best I can; and I mean to keep doing so until the end. If the end brings me out all right, what's said against me won't amount to anything. If the end brings me out wrong, ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference." --Abraham Lincoln

Im sorry but I think republicans and scale is about the equivalent of water and oil.

I do not understand this goes around and comes around mentality of republicans that likes to make comparisons of events only related by the circumstantial. This is like comparing throwing an apple at someone to dropping a thousand watermelons on someone from a thousand feet.

Attacking a man's military record who hid in the guard and flew an obsolete plane and attacking a man who was if im not mistaken the only man in his company to recieve a silver star is a completely different attack. Kerry was in a dangerous and hostile area Bush was lounging in a guard unit whose chances of getting activated were 1 in a trillion. For someone to feel justified in attacking a soldier (Kerry) who served in a hostile theatre in revenge for someone attacking someone (Bush) who served in a stateside guard unit is basically a joke. One mans life was on the line. I am in the reserves. I was called up last year for 4 months. I went to Kansas. Let me tell you a man who served in Iraq and came back with 3 wounds (severe or not) and a silver and bronze star to boot for risking his own life to save a comrade would be nothing short of a patriot and a hero in my eyes and for me to tout or compare my service in the face of him would be an embarassment beyond comprehension. The 4 months I served in Kansas are not comparable in any single solitary degree to what a front line soldier in Iraq or Afghanistan has served.

The republicans think its okay to criticize Kerry because people have criticized Bush?? Those are two completely different types of criticism in scale and reality. You cannot weigh the service of an inactive guardsman to that of a frontline soldier. That is like comparing the occupational risk of a suburban security guard and an inner-city policeman

Its a moot issue. Bush doesnt really have a justification to run on his military service (as he tried to) and Kerry does because Kerry served in a hostile arena. What both contributed to Nam isnt comparable in the slightest. No more then you can compare my service to Pat Tillman's.

These whacky republican comparison rationales are common. I do not know how many times I have ran into this republican belief that demos and repubs are even on Clinton and Bush. Alot of republicans tend to think that probing and trying to ruin a career because a man didnt want to divulge his private sex life is the same as probing and trying to ruin a career because a man led us into a war on fabrications and false intel which led to the death of 700+ coalition troops and thousands of Iraqis. Im sorry but fabricating or telling partial truths about having sex and fabricating and telling partila truths about reasons for a war that resulted in death is a completely different scale and reality.

Another bizarre scale mistep is the Bush statements when he "joked" about finding WMD's under that chair. For some reason I got alot of republican sentiments that felt that since radio and television personalities could joke about it so could Bush. That for some reason the man who led us into the war that resulted in hundreds of deaths should only be held to the same standard of personalization to the conflict as a run of the mill entertainment personality.

Im sorry but discrediting Kerry on Vietnam is nothing like discrediting Bush. Discredit Gore all you want. He was never around combat either but to lessen a man who was in the thick of combat is pathetic and is simply going to backfire if the republicans use it. Americans know better. Americans know the difference between getting shot at in Vietnam and downing shots at a bar in Alabama.

I think its downright ludicrous that Bush or his supporters would have the Gaul to call Kerry out on his service record since all of the Neo-cons and others touting war as a virtuous pursuit found a way OUT of serving in Vietnam and the Gulf war. I was not for the Vietnam war, and accept that many did not want to go, however those who are NOW most vehement at calling for war Never went and have no business talking trash about those that did put their lives on the line:

Read a short list of the chickenhawk count, who now rave about us sacrificing our youth to die in stupid foreign liberations:

George Bush
Jeb Bush
Dick Cheney
Donald Rumsfeld
Paul Wolfowitz
Karl Rove
Scott Libby
Frank Gaffney
Dan Quayle
Newt Gingrich
Sean Hannity
David Limbaugh
Rush Limbaugh
Bill O'Reilly
Michael Savage



Time has always been right wing, why does the right always want to blame the media for anything that does not suit them?
The last I heard you dont give yourself medals, and if credibility is in question we can once again draw upon our current Presidents reluctance to show up for duty, he who has No Medals because he never did anything of valor in his lifetime!, got a quikee discharge, and we go round and round. I think this agument is idiotic. Bushs' last 3 1/2 years as President certainley shows his credibility or intense lack of in present tense, make of it what you will. Kerrys' will be the same.

So the records are out for scrutiny and spin on both sides. I doubt this will make much difference in the election, but Iraq and enemic job growth will. GWB's performance in the campaign will likely be the telling case.

Meanwhile, it is hillarious to witness the spin of the right on Kerry. Hey, so he got a silver and bronze star. So he took shrapnel in the thigh and arm. So what. Big deal. Our boy was a drunken lout snorting cocaine! Beat that! [puff out chest, bobble up and down on toes]

So Kerry went on to be an influence in government and worked for his country over an admirable career. So what? Our boy drove businesses into the ground and started a questionable war! [nod head furiously, flex pecs, make big OH shapes with mouth]

Now who yah gonna vote for? Huh? Who yah gonna vote for? [use gruff wrestling voice, point finger into camera]

It's better than SNL.