Full Version: Pat Tillman RIP
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/n..._usa_tillman_dc
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0423Tillman23-ON.html
We all talk about patriotism. What it means to serve our country. I myself asked about how one's particular service to our country should be veiwed in regards to joining the National Guard. One thread has asked about our heroes.
Pat Tillman was an excellent football player. He was paid quite well and was one of the few players we here in Arizona had to look forward to seeing play. He turned down a very nice contract and joined the Army to become an Army Ranger--he and his brother--because he felt that he needed to do something that would have an impact after 9/11.
He was killed in Afganistan sometime around Thursday April 22, 04. Others have apparently died in the same action that took his life and this isn't meant to put him higher in importance in regards to others but how many give up millions because they beleive that one should sacrifice to serve ones country and that there are things much more valuable than money and fame.
Should Pat Tillman be regarded as a hero?
Where does his sacrifice in regards to leaving a very promising and successful future because he felt he needed to serve his country to pay for the freedoms he had in life place him?
Will many Americans even think much of it?
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0423Tillman23-ON.html
We all talk about patriotism. What it means to serve our country. I myself asked about how one's particular service to our country should be veiwed in regards to joining the National Guard. One thread has asked about our heroes.
Pat Tillman was an excellent football player. He was paid quite well and was one of the few players we here in Arizona had to look forward to seeing play. He turned down a very nice contract and joined the Army to become an Army Ranger--he and his brother--because he felt that he needed to do something that would have an impact after 9/11.
He was killed in Afganistan sometime around Thursday April 22, 04. Others have apparently died in the same action that took his life and this isn't meant to put him higher in importance in regards to others but how many give up millions because they beleive that one should sacrifice to serve ones country and that there are things much more valuable than money and fame.
Should Pat Tillman be regarded as a hero?
Where does his sacrifice in regards to leaving a very promising and successful future because he felt he needed to serve his country to pay for the freedoms he had in life place him?
Will many Americans even think much of it?
This is a bad day, and we've had a lot of those lately. That's the nature of war. It was a bad day when we buried one of my son's high school classmates who was killed in Iraq a few months ago, and another bad day when we buried another a few days ago, and it's a bad day today as well. Pat Tillman was a helluva guy, terrific football player, over-achiever. In these days of spoiled athletes who are out for themselves, looking for the big bucks, he was a different kind of person. He turned down big bucks ( $9 MILLION over 5 years) from the St Louis Rams to sign a smaller contract with the Arizona Cardinals because they had given him the chance to play in the NFL. His sense of loyality. Then, he walked away from a $3.6 million contract over three years after 9/11 because of a stronger sense of loyality. I don't know if you call him a hero or not, that is up to each person to decide, but he most certainly is a symbol of what is so right with America and Americans. Peggy Noonan wrote about this back on 12July2002. The link to her thoughts is here. From that column she writes......
Pretty well says it all......
QUOTE
Except for this. We are making a lot of Tillmans in America, and one wonders if this has been sufficiently noted. The other day friends, a conservative intellectual and his activist wife, sent a picture of their son Gabe, a proud and newly minted Marine. And there is Abe, son of a former high aide to Al Gore, who is a lieutenant junior grade in the Navy, flying SH-60 Seahawk helicopters. A network journalist and his wife, also friends, speak with anguished pride of their son, in harm's way as a full corporal in the Marines. The son of a noted historian has joined up; the son of a conservative columnist has just finished his hitch in the Marines; and the son of a bureau chief of a famous magazine was commissioned a second lieutenant in the Army last month, on the day he graduated from Princeton.
As the Vietnam-era song said, "Something's happening here." And what it is may be exactly clear. Some very talented young men, and women, are joining the armed forces in order to help their country because, apparently, they love it. After what our society and culture have been through and become the past 30 years or so, you wouldn't be sure that we would still be making their kind, but we are. As for their spirit, Abe's mother reports, "Last New Year's, Abe and his roommate [another young officer] were home and the topic came up about how little they are paid [compared with] the kids who graduated from college at the same time they did and went into business.
"Without missing a beat the two of them said, 'Yeah--but we get to get shot at!' and raised their beer bottles. No resentment. No anger. Just pure . . . testosterone-laden bravado."
The Abes and Gabes join a long old line of elders dressed in green, blue, gray, white, gold and black. Pat Tillman joins a similar line, of stars who decided they had work to do, and must leave their careers to do it. They include, among others, the actors Jimmy Stewart, Clark Gable and Tyrone Power in World War II; sports stars Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio in the same war; and quarterback Roger Staubach in Vietnam. It is good to see their style return, and be considered noble again.
As the Vietnam-era song said, "Something's happening here." And what it is may be exactly clear. Some very talented young men, and women, are joining the armed forces in order to help their country because, apparently, they love it. After what our society and culture have been through and become the past 30 years or so, you wouldn't be sure that we would still be making their kind, but we are. As for their spirit, Abe's mother reports, "Last New Year's, Abe and his roommate [another young officer] were home and the topic came up about how little they are paid [compared with] the kids who graduated from college at the same time they did and went into business.
"Without missing a beat the two of them said, 'Yeah--but we get to get shot at!' and raised their beer bottles. No resentment. No anger. Just pure . . . testosterone-laden bravado."
The Abes and Gabes join a long old line of elders dressed in green, blue, gray, white, gold and black. Pat Tillman joins a similar line, of stars who decided they had work to do, and must leave their careers to do it. They include, among others, the actors Jimmy Stewart, Clark Gable and Tyrone Power in World War II; sports stars Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio in the same war; and quarterback Roger Staubach in Vietnam. It is good to see their style return, and be considered noble again.
Pretty well says it all......
QUOTE(christopher @ Apr 23 2004, 11:51 AM)
Should Pat Tillman be regarded as a hero?
Tillman was a hero, as are all those who serve. Everyone gives up something when they make the decision to serve our country.
Tillman's decision was highly publicized because of who he was. Once he enlisted, Tillman turned down all interview offers, preferring to remain anonymous like everyone else in his unit. I am sure the Army would have loved to use his story as a recruitment tool, but Tillman had other ideas.
Tillman joined for all the right reasons, despite what he was giving up. His story is not so different from all the others who chose to join up after 9/11: he went to defend this country.
QUOTE
Where does his sacrifice in regards to leaving a very promising and successful future because he felt he needed to serve his country to pay for the freedoms he had in life place him?
As I said, everyone who joins up sacrifices all they have. Tillman's example was more publicized, but he is the rule, not the exception.
QUOTE
Will many Americans even think much of it?
Hopefully, this will make everyone appreciate the effort and sacrifice that our volunteer armed services put forth every single day.
Was trying to write something but I think Amlord summed up my thoughts and feelings perfectly. Pat Tillman is a great story about personal sacrifice, honor, and courage. There are a lot of Pat Tillman's serving our country right now and if nothing else it just gives me pause to say thank you to any who are serving or have served. /salute
Doc
Doc
I definitely consider Pat Tillman a hero. Not only did he have a promising career in football, he was being recruited as a well-paid commercial advertiser as well. He turned all of it down in order to serve his country. He was not even a normal soldier; he was an elite member of the Rangers. He paid the ultimate price to protect all of us, and to place him anywhere beneath hero status would be a disservice in my mind.
Very honorable that one would give up such a career and money to serve once's country.
RIP Pat Tillman
RIP Pat Tillman
Should Pat Tillman be regarded as a hero?
You're darn right. He was a member of the 75th Ranger Battalion. And if you're not familiar with what that means, it means he was one of the toughest soldiers the Army ever put out. The 75th sees all sorts of action in a lot of places.
Where does his sacrifice in regards to leaving a very promising and successful future because he felt he needed to serve his country to pay for the freedoms he had in life place him?
If you know how much soldiers get paid, and it's inequities to the pay of the private sector, you'd call him crazy. But he knew that honor and duty were worth more than money.
Will many Americans even think much of it?
I don't know about all Americans, I know I will. We, at the very least should spend a moment to think about him, his family and all troops, sailors, and piolts serving.
You're darn right. He was a member of the 75th Ranger Battalion. And if you're not familiar with what that means, it means he was one of the toughest soldiers the Army ever put out. The 75th sees all sorts of action in a lot of places.
Where does his sacrifice in regards to leaving a very promising and successful future because he felt he needed to serve his country to pay for the freedoms he had in life place him?
If you know how much soldiers get paid, and it's inequities to the pay of the private sector, you'd call him crazy. But he knew that honor and duty were worth more than money.
Will many Americans even think much of it?
I don't know about all Americans, I know I will. We, at the very least should spend a moment to think about him, his family and all troops, sailors, and piolts serving.
QUOTE
The Abes and Gabes join a long old line of elders dressed in green, blue, gray, white, gold and black. Pat Tillman joins a similar line, of stars who decided they had work to do, and must leave their careers to do it. They include, among others, the actors Jimmy Stewart, Clark Gable and Tyrone Power in World War II; sports stars Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio in the same war; and quarterback Roger Staubach in Vietnam. It is good to see their style return, and be considered noble again. Pat Noonan thanks to Aquilla's link.
QUOTE
Tillman joined for all the right reasons, despite what he was giving up. His story is not so different from all the others who chose to join up after 9/11: he went to defend this country. As I said, everyone who joins up sacrifices all they have. Tillman's example was more publicized, but he is the rule, not the exception. Amlord
QUOTE
This is a bad day, and we've had a lot of those lately. That's the nature of war. It was a bad day when we buried one of my son's high school classmates who was killed in Iraq a few months ago, and another bad day when we buried another a few days ago, and it's a bad day today as well. I don't know if you call him a hero or not, that is up to each person to decide, but he most certainly is a symbol of what is so right with America and American. Aquilla
Your sentiments pretty well sums up my thoughts. Regardless of branch, rank, or gender...I am so proud and grateful to ALL those who have defended our country-past and present.
As with all who make the ultimate sacrifice...from my heart, I weep for you and yours and pray that your sacrifice will not be in vain. Thanks for the grand memories, Pat Tillman. You are at peace now. How you will be missed! My prayers and thoughts are now for your family, loved ones, friends, and fans.
QUOTE
Should Pat Tillman be regarded as a hero?
Far too often the label "hero" is used to describe professional athletes. In the vast majority of cases such admiration is undeserved. Pat Tillman was a hero.
QUOTE
Will many Americans even think much of it?
I hope they do. Unlike most athletes Pat Tillman is a positive role model, and his story is a remarkable story of patriotism. He gave up wealth, luxury and celebrity for a humble life of service to his country, and ultimately gave his life for it.
I am not eloquent enough to eulogize Pat Tillman. I will simply pray for his family and salute his service and his memory.
But for those not familiar with the Rangers, I leave the following to illustrate what he traded his millions and fame for:
THE RANGER CREED
Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high esprit de corps of the Rangers.
Acknowledging the fact that a Ranger is a more elite soldier who arrives at the cutting edge of battle by land, sea, or air, I accept the fact that as a Ranger my country expects me to move further, faster, and fight harder than any other soldier.
Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some.
Gallantly will I show the world that I am a specially selected and well trained soldier. My courtesy to superior officers, neatness of dress, and care of equipment shall set the example for others to follow.
Energetically will I meet the enemies of my country. I shall defeat them on the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my might. Surrender is not a Ranger word. I will never leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy and under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country.
Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude required to fight on to the Ranger objective and complete the mission, though I be the lone survivor.
SUA SPONTE - "of their own accord"
Ranger Motto
But for those not familiar with the Rangers, I leave the following to illustrate what he traded his millions and fame for:
THE RANGER CREED
Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high esprit de corps of the Rangers.
Acknowledging the fact that a Ranger is a more elite soldier who arrives at the cutting edge of battle by land, sea, or air, I accept the fact that as a Ranger my country expects me to move further, faster, and fight harder than any other soldier.
Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some.
Gallantly will I show the world that I am a specially selected and well trained soldier. My courtesy to superior officers, neatness of dress, and care of equipment shall set the example for others to follow.
Energetically will I meet the enemies of my country. I shall defeat them on the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my might. Surrender is not a Ranger word. I will never leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy and under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country.
Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude required to fight on to the Ranger objective and complete the mission, though I be the lone survivor.
SUA SPONTE - "of their own accord"
Ranger Motto
I was impressed by Pat Tillman's decison to leave behind a great career with the NFL to go and join the Rangers. Knowing what I knew of Pat Tillman I was not suprised. He was almost legendary for not being ordinary and stood out among others of his sport and sports in general. He was said to be a deep thinker and it was known he was not a hound for the spotlight.
Most Arizona football fans have little to look forward to so many of us were saddened to see him go and yet still wowed by his decision. We had made jokes about how soon a "Real" team would steal him away and were amazed that he had such loyalty to a team not exactly legendary for supporting their players or fans.
Should Pat Tillman be regarded as a hero?
I consider him to be one. Not because he gave up fame and fortune but like so many others he walked into something with the full awareness that he could give all for his beliefs. Like all others who have volunteered and gone willingly he gave up his life for what he believed.
How many can say they have that kind of commitment to their beliefs?
Anyone can amass fame and fortune if one is diligent and careful. He gave up a wife, laughter, the sun of ones face and the taste of snow. He gave up the chance to have a family of his own and all the joy that children bring.
Where does his sacrifice in regards to leaving a very promising and successful future because he felt he needed to serve his country to pay for the freedoms he had in life place him?
As a role model. Which he will be held up as whether he would have wanted it so or not. He gave no interviews about his decision and even responded to Dave McGinnis his AZ coach that it would be he(Dave) who would have to deal with the press and then left quietly. There is already an onslaught of those who are trying to use Pat Tillman as propaganda. He wanted none and his reasons were very personal and it seems only close family will ever know exactly why.
To illustrate Pat Tillman this I believe gives insight to his mindset
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/23/sports/23CND-NFL.html?hp
An admirable human being IMO. one well known for drive and ambition and never settling for "good enough" but always friendly and thoughtful.
Will many Americans even think much of it?
I think some shall. I think many will be impressed by Tillman. In the sports world you have so many who receive accolades and admiration who are greedy spineless and lack much in the ways of common decency. there have been few examples worthy of admiration for people to look to. I think Pat Tillman qualifies.
We all talk about patriotism and our beliefs. We bicker and squabble over technicalities and semantics. We accuse others of lacking in faith or common sense. Most of us do it from the safety of our computers, at the water cooler, in bars and over the radio waves. Few seem to actually commit and get involved. We all turn off the TV at night and it all goes away till the next morning and we are then greeted by smiling faces and a new day where we face nothing of any importance should we wish it so. Happy shiny people talking about Survivor or our stock portfolios, or the latest Joe Cartoon cartoon. I think this is what bugs me most about this. I didn't know Pat Tillman, but I was a fan. He was a highlite for a team long on disappointment. So while I didn't KNOW him i knew him. His first decision made me feel bad, somehow lacking, his final sacrifice makes me feel even worse.
While I don't expect an epidemic of such feeling out there i don't think i am alone either. So i will honor the memory of Pat Tillman while I figure out what i should myself do.
Most Arizona football fans have little to look forward to so many of us were saddened to see him go and yet still wowed by his decision. We had made jokes about how soon a "Real" team would steal him away and were amazed that he had such loyalty to a team not exactly legendary for supporting their players or fans.
Should Pat Tillman be regarded as a hero?
I consider him to be one. Not because he gave up fame and fortune but like so many others he walked into something with the full awareness that he could give all for his beliefs. Like all others who have volunteered and gone willingly he gave up his life for what he believed.
How many can say they have that kind of commitment to their beliefs?
Anyone can amass fame and fortune if one is diligent and careful. He gave up a wife, laughter, the sun of ones face and the taste of snow. He gave up the chance to have a family of his own and all the joy that children bring.
Where does his sacrifice in regards to leaving a very promising and successful future because he felt he needed to serve his country to pay for the freedoms he had in life place him?
As a role model. Which he will be held up as whether he would have wanted it so or not. He gave no interviews about his decision and even responded to Dave McGinnis his AZ coach that it would be he(Dave) who would have to deal with the press and then left quietly. There is already an onslaught of those who are trying to use Pat Tillman as propaganda. He wanted none and his reasons were very personal and it seems only close family will ever know exactly why.
To illustrate Pat Tillman this I believe gives insight to his mindset
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/23/sports/23CND-NFL.html?hp
QUOTE
One of Tillman's last surprises came during the Army recruiting process. Since Tillman had a college degree, he was offered the chance to go through the officer-training program before proceeding on his attempted Rangers career track. Tillman declined, telling Army officials he wanted to start at the bottom and work his way up.
An admirable human being IMO. one well known for drive and ambition and never settling for "good enough" but always friendly and thoughtful.
Will many Americans even think much of it?
I think some shall. I think many will be impressed by Tillman. In the sports world you have so many who receive accolades and admiration who are greedy spineless and lack much in the ways of common decency. there have been few examples worthy of admiration for people to look to. I think Pat Tillman qualifies.
We all talk about patriotism and our beliefs. We bicker and squabble over technicalities and semantics. We accuse others of lacking in faith or common sense. Most of us do it from the safety of our computers, at the water cooler, in bars and over the radio waves. Few seem to actually commit and get involved. We all turn off the TV at night and it all goes away till the next morning and we are then greeted by smiling faces and a new day where we face nothing of any importance should we wish it so. Happy shiny people talking about Survivor or our stock portfolios, or the latest Joe Cartoon cartoon. I think this is what bugs me most about this. I didn't know Pat Tillman, but I was a fan. He was a highlite for a team long on disappointment. So while I didn't KNOW him i knew him. His first decision made me feel bad, somehow lacking, his final sacrifice makes me feel even worse.
While I don't expect an epidemic of such feeling out there i don't think i am alone either. So i will honor the memory of Pat Tillman while I figure out what i should myself do.
Pat Tillman was a hero. He will be sorely missed. But so will hundreds of other servicemen and servicewomen who have given their lives. Very few people in this world, I believe, are not loved and cherished by somebody or mourned when they die.
Pat Tillman was a hero,excellent example for generation, and truly a humble person. Which everyone has mentioned.
I thought his most desirable trait was "SACRIFICE".
to accept the loss or destruction of for an end,cause or ideal
Sacrifice means giving up something. He did exactly that and did not brag about it or bring it to anyones attention.
He represented the ultimate sacrifice-giving up his life.
I am proud of him and am at a loss of words to continue.
I thought his most desirable trait was "SACRIFICE".
QUOTE
to accept the loss or destruction of for an end,cause or ideal
Sacrifice means giving up something. He did exactly that and did not brag about it or bring it to anyones attention.
He represented the ultimate sacrifice-giving up his life.
I am proud of him and am at a loss of words to continue.
I agree with all.
But, there are some so and so's that dont.
http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/Young/young9.html
There's a Difference Between Sacrifice and Stupidity."
"The actions of [the other], Pat Tillman, demonstrates a psyche still immersed in childhood fantasies, chasing bad guys and boogie men.
[Marcus] Mann's life record will be a legacy of growth and development for himself and others. He'll be credited by history for a positive effort, no matter the actual results. Tillman's life journey will document the foolishness of force, coercion, carnage and genocide. He will share the blame with his superiors for the imbecilic belief that war creates anything more than the germinating seeds of more war."
But, there are some so and so's that dont.
http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/Young/young9.html
There's a Difference Between Sacrifice and Stupidity."
"The actions of [the other], Pat Tillman, demonstrates a psyche still immersed in childhood fantasies, chasing bad guys and boogie men.
[Marcus] Mann's life record will be a legacy of growth and development for himself and others. He'll be credited by history for a positive effort, no matter the actual results. Tillman's life journey will document the foolishness of force, coercion, carnage and genocide. He will share the blame with his superiors for the imbecilic belief that war creates anything more than the germinating seeds of more war."
QUOTE(Vicideon @ Apr 25 2004, 12:17 PM)
I agree with all.
But, there are some so and so's that dont.
http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/Young/young9.html
There's a Difference Between Sacrifice and Stupidity."
"The actions of [the other], Pat Tillman, demonstrates a psyche still immersed in childhood fantasies, chasing bad guys and boogie men.
[Marcus] Mann's life record will be a legacy of growth and development for himself and others. He'll be credited by history for a positive effort, no matter the actual results. Tillman's life journey will document the foolishness of force, coercion, carnage and genocide. He will share the blame with his superiors for the imbecilic belief that war creates anything more than the germinating seeds of more war."
But, there are some so and so's that dont.
http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/Young/young9.html
There's a Difference Between Sacrifice and Stupidity."
"The actions of [the other], Pat Tillman, demonstrates a psyche still immersed in childhood fantasies, chasing bad guys and boogie men.
[Marcus] Mann's life record will be a legacy of growth and development for himself and others. He'll be credited by history for a positive effort, no matter the actual results. Tillman's life journey will document the foolishness of force, coercion, carnage and genocide. He will share the blame with his superiors for the imbecilic belief that war creates anything more than the germinating seeds of more war."
There are others who seem to share this opinion. From The Massachusetts Daily Collegian we get the following opinion......
QUOTE
Pat Tillman is not a hero: He got what was coming to him
Followed with a bunch of comparisons to the Rambo movies and the like. I didn't read the entire thing, I don't need to and frankly, I don't care to. I've heard it all before, a long time ago with a different war......
QUOTE(Aquilla @ Apr 29 2004, 02:29 PM)
QUOTE(Vicideon @ Apr 25 2004, 12:17 PM)
I agree with all.
But, there are some so and so's that dont.
http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/Young/young9.html
There's a Difference Between Sacrifice and Stupidity."
"The actions of [the other], Pat Tillman, demonstrates a psyche still immersed in childhood fantasies, chasing bad guys and boogie men.
[Marcus] Mann's life record will be a legacy of growth and development for himself and others. He'll be credited by history for a positive effort, no matter the actual results. Tillman's life journey will document the foolishness of force, coercion, carnage and genocide. He will share the blame with his superiors for the imbecilic belief that war creates anything more than the germinating seeds of more war."
But, there are some so and so's that dont.
http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/Young/young9.html
There's a Difference Between Sacrifice and Stupidity."
"The actions of [the other], Pat Tillman, demonstrates a psyche still immersed in childhood fantasies, chasing bad guys and boogie men.
[Marcus] Mann's life record will be a legacy of growth and development for himself and others. He'll be credited by history for a positive effort, no matter the actual results. Tillman's life journey will document the foolishness of force, coercion, carnage and genocide. He will share the blame with his superiors for the imbecilic belief that war creates anything more than the germinating seeds of more war."
There are others who seem to share this opinion. From The Massachusetts Daily Collegian we get the following opinion......
QUOTE
Pat Tillman is not a hero: He got what was coming to him
Followed with a bunch of comparisons to the Rambo movies and the like. I didn't read the entire thing, I don't need to and frankly, I don't care to. I've heard it all before, a long time ago with a different war......
You know though Aquilla, that is the beauty of the 1st amendment. It lets you know right out front who the jerks are.
Pat Tillman is a much better man that I am because I know I would have taken the fat contract instead of enlisting, I would like to say I would have enlisted, but I know it would not have been the case. Pat Tillman is a better man than I am.
Edit: To change foul language.
Pat Tillman was featured in Time this week. After reading the article, something nagged at me. Reading these posts and the article on the strike-the-root site, it came clear.
Dead heros can't serve their countries any longer.
That Tillman is a war hero is not in doubt. He may be awarded a posthumous medal.
But his great character is now just a memory. What might he have become had he lived? We will never know. What children might he have sired and raised?
The finality of death hangs over this. It is fine to sing the praises of Pat Tillman, but that does not diminish the loss.
We lost a good one. We will always lose good ones in war, and with this sobering thought in mind, we should never go to war without being absolutely sure that it is worth the loss.
Pat Tillman was a great young man. He would have probably become an even greater old man. It's tragic, as are all the deaths of the young. This one just seems more poignant, I guess from the publicity and eulogizing.
The strike-the-root article goes over the top with these sentiments, but it does make the point that a living hero serves his or her country more than a dead one. All I am saying is that we need to be more careful when we ask these young people to sacrifice to save our often unworthy hides. That's all. We owe them that much.
Dead heros can't serve their countries any longer.
That Tillman is a war hero is not in doubt. He may be awarded a posthumous medal.
But his great character is now just a memory. What might he have become had he lived? We will never know. What children might he have sired and raised?
The finality of death hangs over this. It is fine to sing the praises of Pat Tillman, but that does not diminish the loss.
We lost a good one. We will always lose good ones in war, and with this sobering thought in mind, we should never go to war without being absolutely sure that it is worth the loss.
Pat Tillman was a great young man. He would have probably become an even greater old man. It's tragic, as are all the deaths of the young. This one just seems more poignant, I guess from the publicity and eulogizing.
The strike-the-root article goes over the top with these sentiments, but it does make the point that a living hero serves his or her country more than a dead one. All I am saying is that we need to be more careful when we ask these young people to sacrifice to save our often unworthy hides. That's all. We owe them that much.
QUOTE(christopher @ Apr 23 2004, 10:51 AM)
Where does his sacrifice in regards to leaving a very promising and successful future because he felt he needed to serve his country to pay for the freedoms he had in life place him?
It places him in a respectable position, but I do not agree with the notion that it made him somehow unique. Businesspeople leave thriving positions in order to become $24,000 a year teachers in public schools. Young college grads will go into the peace corps rather than join some new up and coming business, and people will devote their time to creating "Free-clinics" or volunteering for non-profits. I think of Tillman as one of many great individuals who put collective higher values over their own personal, selfish values. For that, he is to be commended.
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Apr 30 2004, 04:37 PM)
QUOTE(christopher @ Apr 23 2004, 10:51 AM)
Where does his sacrifice in regards to leaving a very promising and successful future because he felt he needed to serve his country to pay for the freedoms he had in life place him?
It places him in a respectable position, but I do not agree with the notion that it made him somehow unique. Businesspeople leave thriving positions in order to become $24,000 a year teachers in public schools. Young college grads will go into the peace corps rather than join some new up and coming business, and people will devote their time to creating "Free-clinics" or volunteering for non-profits. I think of Tillman as one of many great individuals who put collective higher values over their own personal, selfish values. For that, he is to be commended.
My husband left the business world to become a teacher, and that made him personally very happy(probably helped some children too), but I don't consider that the same as volunteering to go into combat, and paying the ultimate price.
I do think Pat Tillman deserves the status of hero. And for whatever reason he is going to become a national symbol for all of the American sacrifice in this time period.
War seems to be odd in that way. Although many are put in similar circumstances, and many die, and many act honorably, and many act heroically.
Only a few become heroes who stand out or are highlighted by their commanders or reporters. That is the way it happens, and it does not disparage the sacrifice made by other soldiers or lessen the good done by so many heroic Americans doing great things writ small in their communities, neighborhoods, businesses, or schools.
These are difficult times and I enjoy having some heroes to admire if they come up. Pat Tillman definitely qualifies for me, and although I obviously did not know him, it saddened me tremendously to learn that he had become a tragic hero.
We have not heard too many stories of people seeking out service in this war on terror. There has not been a great national campaign of people rushing recruitment offices and seeking out the risk of trying to fight against the people who support what happened to America on 9-11. He did this, and he sought out the special forces and served in IRaq and Afghanistan.
Pat Tillman did, and he did while living a dream life of comfort, luxury, and relative fame. I admire him greatly for this and am saddened deeply by his death. It does comfort me that he died in Afghanistan, where the people who coordinated 9-11 definitely were, and not in the much more ambiguous part of the WOT in Iraq.
I think his legacy will slowly build and his name will still be mentioned among the all time American war heroes fifty years from now, long after his fame as a football player would have made him one of many who played the game well.
War seems to be odd in that way. Although many are put in similar circumstances, and many die, and many act honorably, and many act heroically.
Only a few become heroes who stand out or are highlighted by their commanders or reporters. That is the way it happens, and it does not disparage the sacrifice made by other soldiers or lessen the good done by so many heroic Americans doing great things writ small in their communities, neighborhoods, businesses, or schools.
These are difficult times and I enjoy having some heroes to admire if they come up. Pat Tillman definitely qualifies for me, and although I obviously did not know him, it saddened me tremendously to learn that he had become a tragic hero.
We have not heard too many stories of people seeking out service in this war on terror. There has not been a great national campaign of people rushing recruitment offices and seeking out the risk of trying to fight against the people who support what happened to America on 9-11. He did this, and he sought out the special forces and served in IRaq and Afghanistan.
Pat Tillman did, and he did while living a dream life of comfort, luxury, and relative fame. I admire him greatly for this and am saddened deeply by his death. It does comfort me that he died in Afghanistan, where the people who coordinated 9-11 definitely were, and not in the much more ambiguous part of the WOT in Iraq.
I think his legacy will slowly build and his name will still be mentioned among the all time American war heroes fifty years from now, long after his fame as a football player would have made him one of many who played the game well.
Pat Tillman wasn't the best player at his position in the National Football League. Usually, when you aren't fast enough to match up with wide receivers, they move you to safety. As a 49er fan, I watched Ronnie Lott lose a step and move over to safety where he would go on to a Hall of Fame career.I doubt Tillman would ever end up in Canton. He was a blue collar, lunch pail type of player. Not blessed with the greatest combination of speed, instincts or talent, but he hustled and never took a play off. Even though he played on some lousy Arizona Cardinals team, they weren't losers due to Tillman's lack of effort.
Most of us pay lip service to the ideas of duty, honor and country, but few of us would walk away from millions of dollars to volunteer and serve in a war zone for $18,000 a year.
Tillman is one of those rare and elusive types of men. One that walked the walk as well as he talked the talk. It is because of men and women like him that the rest of us enjoy the ability to pontificate and speculate on this board in this country.
Football is often likened to a 60-minute war, but it's a silly and false comparison. Football isn't a thing like war and Tillman knew the difference.
Pat Tillman is a true hero and a real man. God bless him and his family.
I'm currently in Iraq, so news of his death had a great impact on my soldiers. I view him and many of my soldiers view him as a Hero. He stepped off his high horse, and served his country. Many Americans at his income level let the little guy or gal fight and died for America. Pat Tillman had enough respect for America and the US soldiers that he joined us. Anyone who is willing to serve in the military to preserve America's freedom and safety is a hero to me. My husband is one of my biggest heros because of his loyalty and military service. Hopefully my daughters will never have to see another 9/11, because of men and women like Pat Tillman.
In my opinion: Pat Tillman is a Great American and a War Hero.
In my opinion: Pat Tillman is a Great American and a War Hero.
In a democracy, all viewpoints are tolerated, if not necessarily welcomed or respected.
Case in point a cartoon by Ted Rall about Tillman.
Pat Tillman: Hero? Sap? Idiot?
You decide. http://www.ucomics.com/rallcom/2004/05/03/
Case in point a cartoon by Ted Rall about Tillman.
Pat Tillman: Hero? Sap? Idiot?
You decide. http://www.ucomics.com/rallcom/2004/05/03/
I saw that cartoon the other day. He certainly has a right to his opinion, although his commentary that Tillman has been lionized, and that he served an evil president and an evil cause is a bit overboard, in fact utterly ridiculous, pathetic even. But that is just my opinion.
Lionized? He hasn't received close to the media attention that Jessica Lynch did. She got boo-boos in an accident, he charged an ambush to save the lives of his fellow Rangers in an incapacitated vehicle.
Evil president? Whatever.......
Evil cause? What fantasy world is Rall living in?
One man sacrifices his life for his comrades in the service of his country.....
One man manufactures crudely drawn cartoons and ridicules others....
No stretch of the imagination on whom I admire more.
Lionized? He hasn't received close to the media attention that Jessica Lynch did. She got boo-boos in an accident, he charged an ambush to save the lives of his fellow Rangers in an incapacitated vehicle.
Evil president? Whatever.......
Evil cause? What fantasy world is Rall living in?
One man sacrifices his life for his comrades in the service of his country.....
One man manufactures crudely drawn cartoons and ridicules others....
No stretch of the imagination on whom I admire more.
Whether or not you think the war in Iraq or Afghanistan is just, we can all agree on one thing, anyone who is willing to give their life for a cause they believe in, who is ready to sacrifice himself for the safety of others, is a hero. Period. As DTOM will tell you, the army has 'seven Army values' and Tillman represented every one of them. The one that sticks out... Selfless Service.
He gave up a football career to serve his country.
He gave his life to protect his fellow soldiers.
Somehow I think this cartoonist was never in the service at all. We can never fully understand the driving force deep inside Pat Tillman that led him to choose his destiny. We know that 9-11 sealed the deal. But I think it's more than that. A choice that will change on'es life forever isn't decided upon by merely events. IOW, we all wished we could nail OBL, the Taliban, etc. after 9-11. So did Pat Tillman. The difference was, he actually choose to go out and do it. That takes guts.
And for those interested in what kind of response the cartoonist got...
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/e...ulledbymsnbccom
"Move to France".... I like that one!
He gave up a football career to serve his country.
He gave his life to protect his fellow soldiers.
Somehow I think this cartoonist was never in the service at all. We can never fully understand the driving force deep inside Pat Tillman that led him to choose his destiny. We know that 9-11 sealed the deal. But I think it's more than that. A choice that will change on'es life forever isn't decided upon by merely events. IOW, we all wished we could nail OBL, the Taliban, etc. after 9-11. So did Pat Tillman. The difference was, he actually choose to go out and do it. That takes guts.
And for those interested in what kind of response the cartoonist got...
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/e...ulledbymsnbccom
"Move to France".... I like that one!
I think the Umass collegian article sums up my fellings on this pretty well.
I have seen little evidence that bin laden was even involved in 9-11. the taliban offered to turn him over IF we could produce evidence he was involved. the ONLY evidence implicating him is a very grainy, very mistranslated video tape with a man the bears little to no resemblance to him. take into account the US announced to several of it's allies it was planning on invading in early 2001 ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1550366.stm - http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/preplanned.html - http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/...4264545,00.html - http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2002/08/...h/index_np.html - http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/st...556254,00.html) and the entire afghanistan war loses a lot of credibility.
in my opinion, pat tillman is not a hero, he didn't put his life on the line needlessly to save someone else. he was serving as part of an illegitimate invasion, and he didn't even HAVE to serve, he chose to do so. it's sickening that the bush administration and the mainstream media keep the deaths of everyday people that joined to go to school and open doors for their future (as I once considered doing) under wraps, but parade tillman around for hero worship by the masses and for propaganda purposes. (see what a sacrifice HE made!! he gave up millions to fight for us, you should make the same type of sacrifice!!!) no doubt that tillman wasn't a good guy, but he is no hero. the firemen that selflessly went into the WTC on 9-11, (putting their lives in danger) are heroes. they put themselves in harms way to help strangers. tillman was simply a macho idiot.
QUOTE([URL=http://media.dailycollegian.com/pages/tillman_lobandwidth.html)
Umass daily collegian[/URL]]I've been mystified at the absolute nonsense of being in "awe" of Tillman's "sacrifice" that has been the American response. Mystified, but not surprised. True, it's not everyday that you forgo a $3.6 million contract for joining the military. And, not just the regular army, but the elite Army Rangers. You know he was a real Rambo, who wanted to be in the "real" thick of things. I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, beefy face on the CNN pictures. Well, he got his wish.
[snip]
But, does that make him a hero? I guess it's a matter of perspective. For people in the United States, who seem to be unable to admit the stupidity of both the Afghanistan and Iraqi wars, such a trade-off in life standards (if not expectancy) is nothing short of heroic. Obviously, the man must be made of "stronger stuff" to have had decided to "serve" his country rather than take from it. It's the old JFK exhortation to citizen service to the nation, and it seems to strike an emotional chord. So, it's understandable why Americans automatically knee-jerk into hero worship.
However, in my neighborhood in Puerto Rico, Tillman would have been called a EDITED TO REMOVE NON-ENGLISH VULGARITY an idiot. Tillman, in the absurd belief that he was defending or serving his all-powerful country from a seventh-rate, Third World nation devastated by the previous conflicts it had endured, decided to give up a comfortable life to place himself in a combat situation that cost him his life. This was not "Ramon or Tyrone," who joined the military out of financial necessity, or to have a chance at education. This was a "G.I. Joe" guy who got what was coming to him. That was not heroism, it was prophetic idiocy.
Tillman, probably acting out his nationalist-patriotic fantasies forged in years of exposure to Clint Eastwood and Rambo movies, decided to insert himself into a conflict he didn't need to insert himself into. It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable. What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It's hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don't feel like his "service" was necessary. He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in.
[snip]
Matters are a little clearer for those living outside the American borders. Tillman got himself killed in a country other than his own without having been forced to go over to that country to kill its people. After all, whether we like them or not, the Taliban is more Afghani than we are. Their resistance is more legitimate than our invasion, regardless of the fact that our social values are probably more enlightened than theirs. For that, he shouldn't be hailed as a hero, he should be used as a poster boy for the dangerous consequences of too much "America is #1," frat boy, propaganda bull.
[snip]
But, does that make him a hero? I guess it's a matter of perspective. For people in the United States, who seem to be unable to admit the stupidity of both the Afghanistan and Iraqi wars, such a trade-off in life standards (if not expectancy) is nothing short of heroic. Obviously, the man must be made of "stronger stuff" to have had decided to "serve" his country rather than take from it. It's the old JFK exhortation to citizen service to the nation, and it seems to strike an emotional chord. So, it's understandable why Americans automatically knee-jerk into hero worship.
However, in my neighborhood in Puerto Rico, Tillman would have been called a EDITED TO REMOVE NON-ENGLISH VULGARITY an idiot. Tillman, in the absurd belief that he was defending or serving his all-powerful country from a seventh-rate, Third World nation devastated by the previous conflicts it had endured, decided to give up a comfortable life to place himself in a combat situation that cost him his life. This was not "Ramon or Tyrone," who joined the military out of financial necessity, or to have a chance at education. This was a "G.I. Joe" guy who got what was coming to him. That was not heroism, it was prophetic idiocy.
Tillman, probably acting out his nationalist-patriotic fantasies forged in years of exposure to Clint Eastwood and Rambo movies, decided to insert himself into a conflict he didn't need to insert himself into. It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable. What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It's hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don't feel like his "service" was necessary. He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in.
[snip]
Matters are a little clearer for those living outside the American borders. Tillman got himself killed in a country other than his own without having been forced to go over to that country to kill its people. After all, whether we like them or not, the Taliban is more Afghani than we are. Their resistance is more legitimate than our invasion, regardless of the fact that our social values are probably more enlightened than theirs. For that, he shouldn't be hailed as a hero, he should be used as a poster boy for the dangerous consequences of too much "America is #1," frat boy, propaganda bull.
I have seen little evidence that bin laden was even involved in 9-11. the taliban offered to turn him over IF we could produce evidence he was involved. the ONLY evidence implicating him is a very grainy, very mistranslated video tape with a man the bears little to no resemblance to him. take into account the US announced to several of it's allies it was planning on invading in early 2001 ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1550366.stm - http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/preplanned.html - http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/...4264545,00.html - http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2002/08/...h/index_np.html - http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/st...556254,00.html) and the entire afghanistan war loses a lot of credibility.
in my opinion, pat tillman is not a hero, he didn't put his life on the line needlessly to save someone else. he was serving as part of an illegitimate invasion, and he didn't even HAVE to serve, he chose to do so. it's sickening that the bush administration and the mainstream media keep the deaths of everyday people that joined to go to school and open doors for their future (as I once considered doing) under wraps, but parade tillman around for hero worship by the masses and for propaganda purposes. (see what a sacrifice HE made!! he gave up millions to fight for us, you should make the same type of sacrifice!!!) no doubt that tillman wasn't a good guy, but he is no hero. the firemen that selflessly went into the WTC on 9-11, (putting their lives in danger) are heroes. they put themselves in harms way to help strangers. tillman was simply a macho idiot.
Salute to Mr. Tillman, as well as the other persons whom have lost their lives in service to our country. God Bless them all!
QUOTE(kmerschbrock @ May 5 2004, 01:46 PM)
Salute to Mr. Tillman, as well as the other persons whom have lost their lives in service to our country. God Bless them all!
We know you're new here, kmerschbrock, so you probably didn't realize one-liners are against the Rules because they are unconstructive. Please bring more substance to the debates.
Also, ANYONE who curses in ANY language in this or any thread in this forum will be issued an immediate strike and their account will be temporarily moderated. We have made numerous warnings about this.
TOPICS TO DEBATE:
Should Pat Tillman be regarded as a hero?
Where does his sacrifice in regards to leaving a very promising and successful future because he felt he needed to serve his country to pay for the freedoms he had in life place him?
Will many Americans even think much of it?
Also, ANYONE who curses in ANY language in this or any thread in this forum will be issued an immediate strike and their account will be temporarily moderated. We have made numerous warnings about this.
TOPICS TO DEBATE:
Should Pat Tillman be regarded as a hero?
Where does his sacrifice in regards to leaving a very promising and successful future because he felt he needed to serve his country to pay for the freedoms he had in life place him?
Will many Americans even think much of it?
Yes, Unabomber, I'm quite familiar with Mr. Gonzalez's hateful little diatribe. But he's entitled to his opinion. But let's straighten out a few facts.
Not so. There are a myriad of websites that list the names and circumstances of deaths. There is no 'keeping under wraps'.
Here are a few:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world...ofthefallen.htm
http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html
http://www.pigstye.net/iraq/wd.php?sort=date&page=1
Maybe 'whatreallyhappened.com' doesn't share this information with you, but the mainstream media certainly does.
Who exactly has paraded him around? Other than the news accounts, an ESPN segment, and the airing of his memorial service by a couple of cable networks......where is the hero worship? Face facts, Tillman was an NFL player, US Army Ranger AND someone who died in service to his country. That is going to garner a little media attention.
I guess that's more than a sniveling student 'activist' at UMass can bear.
Maybe not in your definition, but to me, a guy who charges up an embankment into the enemy fire of what (in military parlance is called) a near ambush (less than 50 meters away), in order to allow his fellow Rangers in a disabled vehicle a chance to escape to cover, is a by god hero. That's what soldiers fight for, their comrades, not evil presidents or evil causes or other such notions by people who obviously have ample time on their hands.
Just as I thought the overhype of the Jessica Lynch story was disgusting, so too do I find the leftist denigration of Tillman, for no other reason than to slur his name.
QUOTE
it's sickening that the bush administration and the mainstream media keep the deaths of everyday people that joined to go to school and open doors for their future under wraps
Not so. There are a myriad of websites that list the names and circumstances of deaths. There is no 'keeping under wraps'.
Here are a few:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world...ofthefallen.htm
http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html
http://www.pigstye.net/iraq/wd.php?sort=date&page=1
Maybe 'whatreallyhappened.com' doesn't share this information with you, but the mainstream media certainly does.
QUOTE
but parade tillman around for hero worship by the masses and for propaganda purposes
Who exactly has paraded him around? Other than the news accounts, an ESPN segment, and the airing of his memorial service by a couple of cable networks......where is the hero worship? Face facts, Tillman was an NFL player, US Army Ranger AND someone who died in service to his country. That is going to garner a little media attention.
I guess that's more than a sniveling student 'activist' at UMass can bear.
QUOTE
he didn't put his life on the line needlessly to save someone else.......but he is no hero
Maybe not in your definition, but to me, a guy who charges up an embankment into the enemy fire of what (in military parlance is called) a near ambush (less than 50 meters away), in order to allow his fellow Rangers in a disabled vehicle a chance to escape to cover, is a by god hero. That's what soldiers fight for, their comrades, not evil presidents or evil causes or other such notions by people who obviously have ample time on their hands.
Just as I thought the overhype of the Jessica Lynch story was disgusting, so too do I find the leftist denigration of Tillman, for no other reason than to slur his name.
Unfortunately, I think this is again a case where the writer has had no immersion in the very least with the military. Apparently, he knows more than Tillman's family, his friends, his comrades in arms, and the US Govt, because they all think he was a hero. I mean, he didn't get the Silver Star because he did something ordinary. He got it because he gave his life to save his fellow soldiers from an ambush. All those people I mentioned think he's a hero. I think he's a hero. And if one can't grasp the idealism of selflessness, then I guess one would be so inclined to call Tillman an 'idiot'.
Not me. I get it. Others do to. Pat Tillman was a hero. And some *insert colorful word here* from UMass isn't gonna change my mind.
Not me. I get it. Others do to. Pat Tillman was a hero. And some *insert colorful word here* from UMass isn't gonna change my mind.
QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ May 5 2004, 12:07 PM)
There are a myriad of websites that list the names and circumstances of deaths. There is no 'keeping under wraps'.
Here are a few:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world...ofthefallen.htm
http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html
http://www.pigstye.net/iraq/wd.php?sort=date&page=1
Maybe 'whatreallyhappened.com' doesn't share this information with you, but the mainstream media certainly does.
Here are a few:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world...ofthefallen.htm
http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html
http://www.pigstye.net/iraq/wd.php?sort=date&page=1
Maybe 'whatreallyhappened.com' doesn't share this information with you, but the mainstream media certainly does.
fact is though, a vast majority of people do not get their news from the internet, so those websites are useless. where are the shots of flag draped caskets coming back from Iraq on TELEVISION? why have there been no televised funerals (such as italy had for service members killed in Irag) in the year plus we have been there there has not been one televised shot of coffins coming off planes or ANY funerals. but tillman dies and suddenly he is a "hero" but what of the 764+ that have died in Iraq? nightline was going to commit at least on show to reading the names of the dead in Iraq, but the sinclair group ordered the ABC stations it owned to not air that episode (I guess the 700+ dead in iraq don't really matter since THEY didn't give up an NFL contract
) props to koppel for doing what he did.the mass media shows as little as possible of the dead from iraq, mostly because it is official pentagon policy to not allow photos of the flag drapped coffins. the people that took these photos lost their jobs
I'm not saying the media are COMPLETELY ignoring the issue, but their doing the darndest. (names on a website don't have the same impact as photos of row after row after row after row of flag draped coffins.
oh, and what really happened dot com put up links to the pictures of the coffins (WRH.com is a collection of links to newsites around the globe) back in mid april (come to think of it I don't ever recall seeing those photos on CNN)
QUOTE
Who exactly has paraded him around? Other than the news accounts, an ESPN segment, and the airing of his memorial service by a couple of cable networks......where is the hero worship? Face facts, Tillman was an NFL player, US Army Ranger AND someone who died in service to his country. That is going to garner a little media attention.
I guess that's more than a sniveling student 'activist' at UMass can bear.
I guess that's more than a sniveling student 'activist' at UMass can bear.
the classic republicrat tactic; when your argument is weak, resort to name calling! again I point out, why have there NEVER been ANY televised funerals/memorial services of people that joined to get an education? people that are basically conscricpts? (most people "volunteer" for the military to go to college) why are there hardly ANY news accounts of the other people that have did in the Afghanistan and Iraq "wars" (wars require TWO sides) what about the over 1000 troops that died in service to their country? you don't here people on CNN saying "you know, john smith sure was a hero for serving!" the reason tillman has gotten so much attention is because he turned down a 3.6 million contract to go play soldier. so what if he was an NFL player, what about the schools who have lost teachers, workplaces that have lost their bosses, children who no longer have fathers or mothers? remember, most reservists have other jobs as well. face facts yourself, till man is being lauded as a hero while thousands of others who did the same thing are virtually ignored. oh, and the hero worship permeates this entire culture. we hold athletes in more esteem then we do our teachers. THAT is the hero worship I speak of, the fact he died in combat doesn't make him a hero. (even if he was commiting a heroic act)
QUOTE
Maybe not in your definition, but to me, a guy who charges up an embankment into the enemy fire of what (in military parlance is called) a near ambush (less than 50 meters away), in order to allow his fellow Rangers in a disabled vehicle a chance to escape to cover, is a by god hero. That's what soldiers fight for, their comrades, not evil presidents or evil causes or other such notions by people who obviously have ample time on their hands.
I'm sure he did some heroic things in afghanistan. but I'm also sure that there are many that have died in Iraq and Afghanistan that also died doing heroic acts. you mentioned lynch. while she was no hero, the people that tried to protect her were heroic. and while I may not view those men and women as heros myself, I'm sure she does. but you barely heard about them, instead the media tried to make a heroic icon out of jessica (which she denied) and since being heroic makes you a hero, why don't the make such a huge deal out of the others that are heroic all the time in Iraq and Afghanistan? I bet were tillman NOT an NFL star, the mainstream press would mostly ignore him.
QUOTE(aquila)
Unfortunately, I think this is again a case where the writer has had no immersion in the very least with the military. Apparently, he knows more than Tillman's family, his friends, his comrades in arms, and the US Govt, because they all think he was a hero. I mean, he didn't get the Silver Star because he did something ordinary. He got it because he gave his life to save his fellow soldiers from an ambush. All those people I mentioned think he's a hero. I think he's a hero. And if one can't grasp the idealism of selflessness, then I guess one would be so inclined to call Tillman an 'idiot'.
so just because someone has never served in the military means their opinion on war is invalid? well, rush should shut his mouth as should micheal savage and sean hannity. now, don't get me wrong, tillman may have acted heroicly, but we should also remember that "truth is the first casuality of war". also, remember what was said of private lynch? they said she fought back against the Iraqis, and fired her m-16 until she ran out of ammo. turned out to be a propagandic lie. oh, yeah, the US govt also thought lynch was a hero. just because THEY think tillman's a hero, doesn't mean he is (not in the sense they mean it)
but even if every detail of his death we've been told is true, the media is still setting him up on a pedistal. by covering HIS memorial service, but not other "heros" memorial service, they are making him appear so much better then the rest. I don't think people would be having such a problem with this issue were he not made out to be special. the fact remains he is not the only person to have given his life helping others in these wars.
the fact also remains that he did not HAVE to join he CHOSE to join. most people in the military join to get help with college and start carrers (such as a jet mechanic working for a major airline) he SHOULD have known the situation was dangerous and he may have been killed. I wonder what HE would have thought at the presstitutes making him out to be a hero while mostly ignoring other heroic people.
I don't know if tillman was an idiot or not (having never met him personally) but he should not be considered a national hero. I don't care if his family and friends feel he was a hero, I do not. (not at least in the sense the media intends the word)
Let me give you a little insight on the American psyche. People use a recognizable figure like Tillman as a symbol. They use his death and service as an opportunity to grieve for all of the 764+ men and women that they didn't know or ever hear of. You may not believe me, and that's fine, because you think the majority of Americans are mindless idiots who get all of their news from an hour of TV watching. Aside from the pieces like the Nightline episode, it is literally impossible to devote airtime to all who have been lost. Do I think the networks and cable should give more depth to American casualties? Yes I do. But I will not be advocating an all death, all the time channel sandwiched between BET and VH1 either.
Surely your beef with Tillman has to lie in the fact that he joined the Army and went to war. He was a man who felt a calling to serve others, to serve an idea or ideal greater than money and materialism. If someone like him left that lifestyle to join the Peace Corps or whatever you deem noble and got media attention, I somehow doubt you'd be posting about it. He was a sports figure and in the military, like it or not, those professions are held in high regard by the majority of this country. He has had his 15 minutes, and now it's over.
For the record, I don't want to see televised funereals. Memorial services are OK, but I know many Army families that have lost loved ones, and the last thing they would want is a media circus during their time of mourning.
Well then, I'm in good company with Mr. Gonzalez, and you since he sums up your feelings. But I notice you don't have a problem with him calling Tillman GI Joe, Rambo, or an idiot. Guess you guys are 'republicrats' too. Cute name BTW.
Factually inaccurate, though I'm sure it sounds good in the coffee houses. Going to trot out the 'economic draft' line next?
Playing soldier........I'm sure that's what it may seem like to you, but let me assure you, it's no game. Which segues into my next rebuttal........
He did know. One doesn't go to Airborne School and join the Rangers and not know ALL of the inherent risks associated. That is made painfully clear even to those who join the service fixing airplane engines or to get college money.
Nobody HAS to join the military, I don't care what all of the leftist activists put together say. There is no draft, economic or otherwise. So what exactly is your point about comparing him and someone who came from a poor background?
I'm happy that you have your opinion and stand by it stoically. I'm glad that we live in a country that tolerates the Gonzalez's and Rall's. But when their view is unpopular, and they are called on it...maybe they 'had it coming to them' too.
Surely your beef with Tillman has to lie in the fact that he joined the Army and went to war. He was a man who felt a calling to serve others, to serve an idea or ideal greater than money and materialism. If someone like him left that lifestyle to join the Peace Corps or whatever you deem noble and got media attention, I somehow doubt you'd be posting about it. He was a sports figure and in the military, like it or not, those professions are held in high regard by the majority of this country. He has had his 15 minutes, and now it's over.
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why have there been no televised funerals
For the record, I don't want to see televised funereals. Memorial services are OK, but I know many Army families that have lost loved ones, and the last thing they would want is a media circus during their time of mourning.
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the classic republicrat tactic; when your argument is weak, resort to name calling
Well then, I'm in good company with Mr. Gonzalez, and you since he sums up your feelings. But I notice you don't have a problem with him calling Tillman GI Joe, Rambo, or an idiot. Guess you guys are 'republicrats' too. Cute name BTW.
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people that are basically conscricpts? (most people "volunteer" for the military to go to college)
Factually inaccurate, though I'm sure it sounds good in the coffee houses. Going to trot out the 'economic draft' line next?
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he turned down a 3.6 million contract to go play soldier
Playing soldier........I'm sure that's what it may seem like to you, but let me assure you, it's no game. Which segues into my next rebuttal........
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the fact also remains that he did not HAVE to join he CHOSE to join. most people in the military join to get help with college and start carrers (such as a jet mechanic working for a major airline) he SHOULD have known the situation was dangerous and he may have been killed.
He did know. One doesn't go to Airborne School and join the Rangers and not know ALL of the inherent risks associated. That is made painfully clear even to those who join the service fixing airplane engines or to get college money.
Nobody HAS to join the military, I don't care what all of the leftist activists put together say. There is no draft, economic or otherwise. So what exactly is your point about comparing him and someone who came from a poor background?
I'm happy that you have your opinion and stand by it stoically. I'm glad that we live in a country that tolerates the Gonzalez's and Rall's. But when their view is unpopular, and they are called on it...maybe they 'had it coming to them' too.
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Unabomber
oh, and what really happened dot com put up links to the pictures of the coffins (WRH.com is a collection of links to newsites around the globe) back in mid april (come to think of it I don't ever recall seeing those photos on CNN)
oh, and what really happened dot com put up links to the pictures of the coffins (WRH.com is a collection of links to newsites around the globe) back in mid april (come to think of it I don't ever recall seeing those photos on CNN)
You're right. You know why? Cause CNN thought it would be more appropriate to show a list with an actual photo of the deceased! Also included is their hometown, unit, and when, where and how they died. Here's the link.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/
What do you think is more appropriate? A coffin or an actual face. Coffins can (and if they haven't already will) be used in a negative light. You can't do that with a face. A person.
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Unabomber
Unfortunately, I think this is again a case where the writer has had no immersion in the very least with the military. Apparently, he knows more than Tillman's family, his friends, his comrades in arms, and the US Govt, because they all think he was a hero. I mean, he didn't get the Silver Star because he did something ordinary. He got it because he gave his life to save his fellow soldiers from an ambush. All those people I mentioned think he's a hero. I think he's a hero. And if one can't grasp the idealism of selflessness, then I guess one would be so inclined to call Tillman an 'idiot'.
...so just because someone has never served in the military means their opinion on war is invalid? well, rush should shut his mouth as should micheal savage and sean hannity. now, don't get me wrong, tillman may have acted heroicly, but we should also remember that "truth is the first casuality of war". also, remember what was said of private lynch? they said she fought back against the Iraqis, and fired her m-16 until she ran out of ammo. turned out to be a propagandic lie. oh, yeah, the US govt also thought lynch was a hero. just because THEY think tillman's a hero, doesn't mean he is (not in the sense they mean it)
Unfortunately, I think this is again a case where the writer has had no immersion in the very least with the military. Apparently, he knows more than Tillman's family, his friends, his comrades in arms, and the US Govt, because they all think he was a hero. I mean, he didn't get the Silver Star because he did something ordinary. He got it because he gave his life to save his fellow soldiers from an ambush. All those people I mentioned think he's a hero. I think he's a hero. And if one can't grasp the idealism of selflessness, then I guess one would be so inclined to call Tillman an 'idiot'.
...so just because someone has never served in the military means their opinion on war is invalid? well, rush should shut his mouth as should micheal savage and sean hannity. now, don't get me wrong, tillman may have acted heroicly, but we should also remember that "truth is the first casuality of war". also, remember what was said of private lynch? they said she fought back against the Iraqis, and fired her m-16 until she ran out of ammo. turned out to be a propagandic lie. oh, yeah, the US govt also thought lynch was a hero. just because THEY think tillman's a hero, doesn't mean he is (not in the sense they mean it)
First off, I made that quote, not Aquilla. He doesn't need to be associated with a scoundrel like me!
And if you ask me, I will take the word and advice of a 55 year old Vietnam Vet who I live nextdoor to over some pretentious punk with an attitude and a pen at UMass. I respect all military historians, many of which but not all, have served. But I will always look to those who have first hand experience before anyone else. For instance, when I asked DTOM about Field Manual references, it's not cause I think he's a swell guy (though I have huge respect for Airborne Rangers!) It's cause, guess what. He's been there. He knows. It's a little arrogant for someone who's never served to decide who's a hero and who is not.
But this quote stuck out U...
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now, don't get me wrong, tillman may have acted heroicly...
But acting heroically doesn't warrant being called a hero? Does heroically have a different definition then the one I remember? And correct me if I'm wrong, but just because not all soldiers get media attention, doesn't mean that no one thinks that they aren't heroes. I have a friend who was in Military Intelligence in Iraq with V Corps. She made it back. To me, she's a hero in a way. She served her country when others wouldn't.
Pat Tillman died protecting his troops. He didn't make it back. He's a hero in a way too. Especially in the 'sense they mean'. As I said, they don't hand out Silver Stars for nothing.
As for what DTOM said, I 100% agree. I'm not interested in seeing fellow soldiers and the families of the fallen weep. I'm not interested in having a televised funeral in between commercials for Coke and Viagra. When a loved one, a soldier, is laid to rest, it is a private moment. It should stay as such. I'd rather take my small American flag I have boxed up somewhere, hang it up, and say a prayer of thanks for all those who have fallen, then to watch a funeral service during dinner.
Which leads me to sort of a tangent, bare with me for a minute. What is gained by seeing a televised funeral? Do you think that the American psyche is so detached from the consequences of war that we need to be educated day after day? What will we benefit by watching weeping loved ones of a fallen service member? I can tell you. NOTHING. Personally, I think that people who push for such things, as well as the Dover photos, have ulterior agendas they want to push. I can't remember (it might of been Robert E. Lee) who said it was good that war was as horrific as it was so we may not grow fond of it. That's true, but to push anti-war agendas while claiming they only want the soldiers to be honored is crap. Straight up crap.
Funny, no body ever thought to ask the soldiers, any soldier, if their casket, if their funeral could be televised or photographed. I wonder why?
I could imagine anyone, I know I do, who sees the pics of the caskets doesnt think of the names, the faces, the personas behind those wooden frames. At least not at first. They think, wow, those are a lot of caskets. And that's what the anti-war folks are pushing...
DEATH EQUALS CASKETS
CASKETS EQUAL NUMBERS
NUMBERS ARE BAD
...not the fact that lying in each of those caskets are men and women who served with high honor and paid the ultimate price. Sorry for the tangent, but I needed to address Unabomber's remarks on 'honoring' all of our fallen troops during sweeps on FOX.
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