Full Version: Islam
I really don't want this to be a theological discourse. However it is the understanding of this which will determine how well we do and what we do in this "War on Terror". So how do you know that the policies we are setting and following are going to be effective or even worth the time--more importantly dead Americans.
Is your understanding of Islam based solely on information from western sources?
http://www.sistani.org/html/eng/ this is a link to a name everyone here should be familiar with since he is being courted to help settle things down in Iraq.
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldveiw of a practising Muslim?
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
Is your understanding of Islam based solely on information from western sources?
http://www.sistani.org/html/eng/ this is a link to a name everyone here should be familiar with since he is being courted to help settle things down in Iraq.
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldveiw of a practising Muslim?
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
I know that Islam permits the wanton slaughter of the "infidel'. An ninfidel is a person who does not follow the rules and teachings of Islam - Christian, Jew, wtc. Islam is unfortunately a very vicious religion - I pity anyone who follows it.
Many of you fail to make a distinction between the modern Muslim and the fundementalist.
It is ignorant and misguided to assume that all Muslims are promoted to violence towards infidels. The Koran can be likened to our Constitution, some interpret it various different ways and some follow it to further extents than others. If we are to base the intentions of ones crimes, I would find Christians to be the most violent.
Speaking rhetorically, did Muslims commit:
The death of eight million Jews and Poles in Nazi concentration camps?
The Oklahoma City bombings?
The deaths of millions of people in the Soviet Union?
It is ignorant and misguided to assume that all Muslims are promoted to violence towards infidels. The Koran can be likened to our Constitution, some interpret it various different ways and some follow it to further extents than others. If we are to base the intentions of ones crimes, I would find Christians to be the most violent.
Speaking rhetorically, did Muslims commit:
The death of eight million Jews and Poles in Nazi concentration camps?
The Oklahoma City bombings?
The deaths of millions of people in the Soviet Union?
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldveiw of a practising Muslim?
No I don't.
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
I don't understand what your asking here..
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
No.
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
No.
Other people's beliefs are not my problem unless they use that belief to justify attacking me, and even then it is the fact that I am being attacked that matters, not the reason behind it.
That some one is a Muslim or a Christian or an Aetheist does not really matter only that they treat me with the respect I treat them. I won't attack any one on the basis of my personal beliefs and neither should they. If they do and cannot claim insanity through medical reasons, then they forfeit the right to any understanding.
No I don't.
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
I don't understand what your asking here..
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
No.
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
No.
Other people's beliefs are not my problem unless they use that belief to justify attacking me, and even then it is the fact that I am being attacked that matters, not the reason behind it.
That some one is a Muslim or a Christian or an Aetheist does not really matter only that they treat me with the respect I treat them. I won't attack any one on the basis of my personal beliefs and neither should they. If they do and cannot claim insanity through medical reasons, then they forfeit the right to any understanding.
QUOTE(Yukon @ Apr 24 2004, 10:42 PM)
I know that Islam permits the wanton slaughter of the "infidel'. An ninfidel is a person who does not follow the rules and teachings of Islam - Christian, Jew, wtc. Islam is unfortunately a very vicious religion - I pity anyone who follows it.
PERSONAL ATTACK REMOVED
Islam has four Jihads (struggles)
* JIHAD OF THE HEART:
to purify oneself and try to live as the prophets did.
* JIHAD OF THE TONGUE:
to speak out in support of social justice, to educate.
* JIHAD OF THE HAND:
to touch others with dignity and respect.
* JIHAD OF THE SWORD:
to fight, as a last resort, against economic and social injustice.
The later has been the one that has been twisted by fundamentalists, such as bin Laden.
PERSONAL ATTACK REMOVED
Moif,
That's what I'd call a one-sided view. It's the very definition.
Do you see 9/11 as being "year zero"? That 9/11 was not an act of revenge or preemption in its own right? Was the reason America was attacked just because it's good and they're bad?
Surely the fact that Muslims generally see their 1 billion population around the world as a brotherhood and they see the US as siding with Israel and yet try to be a broker of a settlement as infruriating?
The fact that al Qaeda had been backed by the CIA in the 80s matters not? The fact that US troops protecting the corrupt Saudi dictatorship (Saudi contains Islam's most holy sites) angers faithful Muslims of all colours matters not?
The conveyor belt of US governments have sown deep resentment, largely in acts entirely unreported to the American people that in 9/11 became truly visible. Iran/Iraq war shinanigans, is just the tip of the iceburg. You have BCCI (my god, there's a lot of stuff in that). You have the Kuwait "liberation" which saw the country's original dictator king reinstated (just as corrupt as the Saudi chiefs). You have the US previously ignoring the Taliban and then suddenly condemning it.
So many events not even fully listed here.
Having knowledge of Islam would have informed the American people about the potential difficulties of invading and occupying Iraq. These difficulties are now somehow surprising to them but not to me.
Islam is as fractured and complex a religion as Christianity and has, of course, very similar roots. Some Christians advocate apartheid still (see the South a mere 40 years ago), some Christians advocate lying to kids that condoms have fibres and leak disease just to get them to practice abstinance (which, of course makes matters worse), some Christians believe all war is unjustified (al la "Thou shalt not kill"), some Christians believe that people should not use modern technology and should live a very simple and gender unequal society (al la Amish). So Islam has sectors and factions that have similar and simlarly diverse views.
I'm atheist and the whole thing's a crock to me but the fact remains that targetting or criticizing or hating Islam is as ill-informed and laughably broad as to do the same to Christianity.
Schooly
That's what I'd call a one-sided view. It's the very definition.
Do you see 9/11 as being "year zero"? That 9/11 was not an act of revenge or preemption in its own right? Was the reason America was attacked just because it's good and they're bad?
Surely the fact that Muslims generally see their 1 billion population around the world as a brotherhood and they see the US as siding with Israel and yet try to be a broker of a settlement as infruriating?
The fact that al Qaeda had been backed by the CIA in the 80s matters not? The fact that US troops protecting the corrupt Saudi dictatorship (Saudi contains Islam's most holy sites) angers faithful Muslims of all colours matters not?
The conveyor belt of US governments have sown deep resentment, largely in acts entirely unreported to the American people that in 9/11 became truly visible. Iran/Iraq war shinanigans, is just the tip of the iceburg. You have BCCI (my god, there's a lot of stuff in that). You have the Kuwait "liberation" which saw the country's original dictator king reinstated (just as corrupt as the Saudi chiefs). You have the US previously ignoring the Taliban and then suddenly condemning it.
So many events not even fully listed here.
Having knowledge of Islam would have informed the American people about the potential difficulties of invading and occupying Iraq. These difficulties are now somehow surprising to them but not to me.
Islam is as fractured and complex a religion as Christianity and has, of course, very similar roots. Some Christians advocate apartheid still (see the South a mere 40 years ago), some Christians advocate lying to kids that condoms have fibres and leak disease just to get them to practice abstinance (which, of course makes matters worse), some Christians believe all war is unjustified (al la "Thou shalt not kill"), some Christians believe that people should not use modern technology and should live a very simple and gender unequal society (al la Amish). So Islam has sectors and factions that have similar and simlarly diverse views.
I'm atheist and the whole thing's a crock to me but the fact remains that targetting or criticizing or hating Islam is as ill-informed and laughably broad as to do the same to Christianity.
Schooly
You have asked some very profound questions here. This is also a very touchy subject, so I will try to answer as carefully as I can.
Do I understand the worldview of a practicing Muslim? I guess the only honest answer I can give is "partly." Let me give you some background about myself. I was raised in a pretty typical American Roman Catholic family. I wound up without any spiritual beliefs whatsoever, but with an intellectual respect for the philosophical foundations of Deism, and an emotional respect for the ethical systems of many faiths and philosophies. (These would tend to pretty much boil down to "Be decent to people.") It is difficult for me to understand the worldview of any of the major world faiths. Just because of my background, it is easier for me to understand the worldview of the three Abrahamic faiths than for other faiths. When we consider Islam contrasted with, say, Hinduism, certainly anyone raised in the Christian-dominated American culture will recognize that Islam and Christianity are not so very far apart. In summary, the worldview of a practicing Muslim is not entirely alien to my own worldview, although there are certainly profound differences.
How does this level of understanding compare to the current American policy? I'm not sure how relevant this might be. It would seem to me to be more important to try to understand, first of all, the extremely complex and tragic history of the Middle East and Central Asia. Understanding the various views of the Islamic world on this situation is a critical factor. Secondly, there should be an attempt to understand the worldview of fanatics and terrorists, one subgroup of which would be those who justify such actions through Islam.
Should I think about learning more about Islam? More knowledge is never a bad thing. The most important benefit of more knowledge would be a reduction in anti-Muslim prejudice.
Do I care? Sure. There is no psychological force as powerful as religion. It is impossible to understand human behavior without understanding faith, in all its myriad aspects.
Do I understand the worldview of a practicing Muslim? I guess the only honest answer I can give is "partly." Let me give you some background about myself. I was raised in a pretty typical American Roman Catholic family. I wound up without any spiritual beliefs whatsoever, but with an intellectual respect for the philosophical foundations of Deism, and an emotional respect for the ethical systems of many faiths and philosophies. (These would tend to pretty much boil down to "Be decent to people.") It is difficult for me to understand the worldview of any of the major world faiths. Just because of my background, it is easier for me to understand the worldview of the three Abrahamic faiths than for other faiths. When we consider Islam contrasted with, say, Hinduism, certainly anyone raised in the Christian-dominated American culture will recognize that Islam and Christianity are not so very far apart. In summary, the worldview of a practicing Muslim is not entirely alien to my own worldview, although there are certainly profound differences.
How does this level of understanding compare to the current American policy? I'm not sure how relevant this might be. It would seem to me to be more important to try to understand, first of all, the extremely complex and tragic history of the Middle East and Central Asia. Understanding the various views of the Islamic world on this situation is a critical factor. Secondly, there should be an attempt to understand the worldview of fanatics and terrorists, one subgroup of which would be those who justify such actions through Islam.
Should I think about learning more about Islam? More knowledge is never a bad thing. The most important benefit of more knowledge would be a reduction in anti-Muslim prejudice.
Do I care? Sure. There is no psychological force as powerful as religion. It is impossible to understand human behavior without understanding faith, in all its myriad aspects.
I suggest those not "in the know" about Islam take this quiz before debating:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1001/viciousgodquiz.html
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1001/viciousgodquiz.html
Perhaps I am mis-reading this thread, but it seems to me that the premise advanced is that the War on Terrorism is somehow a war against Islam. It is not.
I haven't read or studied the entire Koran, although I have read parts of it, but I have "met" online a number of Muslims in forums such as this one. The actions of terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda are no more a part of Islam than the bombing of an abortion clinic is a part of Christianity. Both are wrong and well out of the true beliefs of those religions. Those conducting such terrorist acts in the name of their religion are heretics and true "infidels". The problem is they are the ones who get the headlines.
It is a gross mistake to comdemn Muslims for the actions of a few who have attempted to hijack their religion for their own selfish purposes. Just as it is a mistake to condemn Christians for the actions of a few who have attempted to use Christianity as an excuse for their own evil.
Yes, I care, I think it's important for us to understand other people's beliefs and discover that they really aren't that much different than our own.
I haven't read or studied the entire Koran, although I have read parts of it, but I have "met" online a number of Muslims in forums such as this one. The actions of terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda are no more a part of Islam than the bombing of an abortion clinic is a part of Christianity. Both are wrong and well out of the true beliefs of those religions. Those conducting such terrorist acts in the name of their religion are heretics and true "infidels". The problem is they are the ones who get the headlines.
It is a gross mistake to comdemn Muslims for the actions of a few who have attempted to hijack their religion for their own selfish purposes. Just as it is a mistake to condemn Christians for the actions of a few who have attempted to use Christianity as an excuse for their own evil.QUOTE(Christopher)
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question) [
Yes, I care, I think it's important for us to understand other people's beliefs and discover that they really aren't that much different than our own.
I would have to claim ignorance here, although I do have a decent enough grasp of what Islam is to know that Bin Laden in no shape or form represents it. We have a fairly large Muslim community in the UK (I know more practicing Muslims than I do Christians for example) so I've picked up a bit of what it's all about from my friends. At the end of the day, I respect other peoples faiths as I would expect them to respect my non-religious view on life, but I have no real desire to learn about religion in detail.
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldveiw of a practising Muslim?
I guess so... although none of my friends are as religious as their parents (if at all) I do have some that practice Islam, so I know a little about the kind of things they have to do. I actually fasted (during school hours anyway) during Ramadan one year because I felt sorry for one of my friends. I know, I'm a bit silly
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
I don't know what the American policy is here, although obviously I've read articles about airports being more likely to stop and search people with Islamic sounding names. As far as I know, the policies of our countries at this time do not step on the toes of Muslims anymore than anyone else.
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
Not really, I see no evidence that we recognisee Islam as an 'enemy' or a 'target' in the WOT. President Bush and Prime Minister Blair have both spoken on the subject and said the Islam is not the enemy, it is those who are using the faith to brainwash people into joining their team that must be caught. I don't think I need a better understanding of Islam. The mess in Iraq does not count of course, as I personally will fail to acknowledge that as part of the WOT.
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
About Islam? Well it means something to a lot of people, as do all religions. In that sense I care. On a personal level, I care about no religion.
If you mean about religious ignorance, then I do care about that. I think it should be an educational requirement (I know I had to take Religious Education at high school but I'm not sure about other countries) to have a basic grasp of the main faiths. However, beyond the basics, I don't see that it matters being ignorant of Islam or other religions.
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldveiw of a practising Muslim?
I guess so... although none of my friends are as religious as their parents (if at all) I do have some that practice Islam, so I know a little about the kind of things they have to do. I actually fasted (during school hours anyway) during Ramadan one year because I felt sorry for one of my friends. I know, I'm a bit silly
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
I don't know what the American policy is here, although obviously I've read articles about airports being more likely to stop and search people with Islamic sounding names. As far as I know, the policies of our countries at this time do not step on the toes of Muslims anymore than anyone else.
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
Not really, I see no evidence that we recognisee Islam as an 'enemy' or a 'target' in the WOT. President Bush and Prime Minister Blair have both spoken on the subject and said the Islam is not the enemy, it is those who are using the faith to brainwash people into joining their team that must be caught. I don't think I need a better understanding of Islam. The mess in Iraq does not count of course, as I personally will fail to acknowledge that as part of the WOT.
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
About Islam? Well it means something to a lot of people, as do all religions. In that sense I care. On a personal level, I care about no religion.
If you mean about religious ignorance, then I do care about that. I think it should be an educational requirement (I know I had to take Religious Education at high school but I'm not sure about other countries) to have a basic grasp of the main faiths. However, beyond the basics, I don't see that it matters being ignorant of Islam or other religions.
QUOTE
Perhaps I am mis-reading this thread, but it seems to me that the premise advanced is that the War on Terrorism is somehow a war against Islam.
Yes you are mis reading. I in no way have any intent of brushing all Muslims with the same stroke. The intent of this thread is to get an idea about just who knows what about Islam. What do we know and what is fact? What are the media inspired and propaganda led misconceptions. Are the terrorists in or out of the mainstream? How do we know yes or no? We are setting up to fight a war in which this kind of knowledge is crucial IMO. How do you root out terrorists cells if the people protect them? Do they protect them? How do they veiw us? What do they think they know about us? Where are the large protests against the activities of the actions of terrorists? Is it really just a case of the media not offering a honest view of things in the middle east and africa and asia?
Can anyone here identify an Arab from a Persian?
How about a Sihk? One was killed here in Arizona by a fool who couldn't tell the difference. I have seen people say things about "ragheads" when the person was actually Mexican?
What is the difference between a Secular Muslim and a Moderate Muslim?
How much of the world's population practices Islam?
Palestinians get lots of press, anyone ever wonder how other middle eastern nations treat palestinians?
How many people just go with whatever information they get from TV?
If this war on terror is to be fought well without just creating even more people with a grudge against us for things real or imagined should we as Americans at least have a basic understanding of what we face?
Let's let the Koran decide this "killing of infidels" issue for us. I will give you a few more verses so you can understand the aggressiveness and ruthless mentality of Islam. You need to know that there are many more like these verses that are just as telling.
Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."
It should be clear that this verse commands Muslims to wage war on all non-Muslims around them. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this out.
Verse 47:3 - "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."
That is what I call a harsh religion. You are supposed to strike off the heads of those to whom you evangelize?
Verse 48:29 - "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."
Verse 66:9 - "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate."
I think you would have to be an idiot to not be able to see the hostile nature and commands for the Muslims. It is clear with just these verses that the war they are commanded to wage on all non-Muslims is not evangelizing. They are commanded to fight to kill all non-Muslims including atheists, secularists, humanists, evolutionists, and all other religions but you will find that the Koran places special emphasis on killing off Jews and Christians. This is probably because of the rejection the Jews and Christians gave Muhammad.
Muslim = PEACE, yeah just like Hitler loved the Jews !
Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."
It should be clear that this verse commands Muslims to wage war on all non-Muslims around them. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this out.
Verse 47:3 - "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."
That is what I call a harsh religion. You are supposed to strike off the heads of those to whom you evangelize?
Verse 48:29 - "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."
Verse 66:9 - "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate."
I think you would have to be an idiot to not be able to see the hostile nature and commands for the Muslims. It is clear with just these verses that the war they are commanded to wage on all non-Muslims is not evangelizing. They are commanded to fight to kill all non-Muslims including atheists, secularists, humanists, evolutionists, and all other religions but you will find that the Koran places special emphasis on killing off Jews and Christians. This is probably because of the rejection the Jews and Christians gave Muhammad.
Muslim = PEACE, yeah just like Hitler loved the Jews !
Schoolboy
Thanks for your observations. I'll do my best to reply to them.
In truth, I don't see Islam as being responsible for the attacks of 11 Sept 2001. The actions of a rabid minority do not reflect the teachings of the religon as a whole.
I don't see 11 Sept as being a 'year zero', though I do look upon it as a cast gauntlet... a line drawn in the sand as it were which openly declared war against America.
That the cause of the terrorists may well rest in a justified discontent with American foreign policy, does not however, justify the mass slaughter of thousands of innocent people.
Yes. But so what? Their sense of brotherhood does not justify their aggression.
Not in my opinion. I don't give a fig for 'holy sites'. Not theirs or any one else's. In my opinion, any religon which puts its own doctrine before the life of a single human being is nothing but a great lie.
History is full of religous wars and slaughter all in the name of silent gods. I have no patience for any religon that justifies death for other people.
And all true. American foreign policy is one long catalogue of grotesque manipulation and callous disregard for human life.
But as my Mother in her infinite wisdom often points out; two wrongs do not make a right.
If for example, my own nation were attacked by the United States, then I would not be bothered to try to understand the why of that either. My primary concern would be to evict the invaders and for my family and friends to survive. What possible difference does it make to me in that situation why the USA had invaded?
I would not however kill innocent Americans in New York to get their troops out of my nation.
No. I'm not surprised either, but I don't agree with you that an understanding of Islam would have made as much difference as an understanding of Iraqi culture.
For all the talk of Muslim brotherhood, its patently obvious that there is no such thing. We've seen countless examples of Muslims fighting and killing each other.
I don't hate Islam, I just don't believe in it.
I think people who do are deceiving themselves or being deceived but I also think the same of Christians.
Its their right to believe what they will, but not to use it as a justification to muscle their beliefs onto others.
Thanks for your observations. I'll do my best to reply to them.
QUOTE
Do you see 9/11 as being "year zero"? That 9/11 was not an act of revenge or preemption in its own right? Was the reason America was attacked just because it's good and they're bad?
In truth, I don't see Islam as being responsible for the attacks of 11 Sept 2001. The actions of a rabid minority do not reflect the teachings of the religon as a whole.
I don't see 11 Sept as being a 'year zero', though I do look upon it as a cast gauntlet... a line drawn in the sand as it were which openly declared war against America.
That the cause of the terrorists may well rest in a justified discontent with American foreign policy, does not however, justify the mass slaughter of thousands of innocent people.
QUOTE
Surely the fact that Muslims generally see their 1 billion population around the world as a brotherhood and they see the US as siding with Israel and yet try to be a broker of a settlement as infruriating?
Yes. But so what? Their sense of brotherhood does not justify their aggression.
QUOTE
The fact that al Qaeda had been backed by the CIA in the 80s matters not? The fact that US troops protecting the corrupt Saudi dictatorship (Saudi contains Islam's most holy sites) angers faithful Muslims of all colours matters not?
Not in my opinion. I don't give a fig for 'holy sites'. Not theirs or any one else's. In my opinion, any religon which puts its own doctrine before the life of a single human being is nothing but a great lie.
History is full of religous wars and slaughter all in the name of silent gods. I have no patience for any religon that justifies death for other people.
QUOTE
The conveyor belt of US governments have sown deep resentment, largely in acts entirely unreported to the American people that in 9/11 became truly visible. Iran/Iraq war shinanigans, is just the tip of the iceburg. You have BCCI (my god, there's a lot of stuff in that). You have the Kuwait "liberation" which saw the country's original dictator king reinstated (just as corrupt as the Saudi chiefs). You have the US previously ignoring the Taliban and then suddenly condemning it.
So many events not even fully listed here.
So many events not even fully listed here.
And all true. American foreign policy is one long catalogue of grotesque manipulation and callous disregard for human life.
But as my Mother in her infinite wisdom often points out; two wrongs do not make a right.
If for example, my own nation were attacked by the United States, then I would not be bothered to try to understand the why of that either. My primary concern would be to evict the invaders and for my family and friends to survive. What possible difference does it make to me in that situation why the USA had invaded?
I would not however kill innocent Americans in New York to get their troops out of my nation.
QUOTE
Having knowledge of Islam would have informed the American people about the potential difficulties of invading and occupying Iraq. These difficulties are now somehow surprising to them but not to me.
No. I'm not surprised either, but I don't agree with you that an understanding of Islam would have made as much difference as an understanding of Iraqi culture.
For all the talk of Muslim brotherhood, its patently obvious that there is no such thing. We've seen countless examples of Muslims fighting and killing each other.
QUOTE
Islam is as fractured and complex a religion as Christianity and has, of course, very similar roots. Some Christians advocate apartheid still (see the South a mere 40 years ago), some Christians advocate lying to kids that condoms have fibres and leak disease just to get them to practice abstinance (which, of course makes matters worse), some Christians believe all war is unjustified (al la "Thou shalt not kill"), some Christians believe that people should not use modern technology and should live a very simple and gender unequal society (al la Amish). So Islam has sectors and factions that have similar and simlarly diverse views.
I'm atheist and the whole thing's a crock to me but the fact remains that targetting or criticizing or hating Islam is as ill-informed and laughably broad as to do the same to Christianity.
I'm atheist and the whole thing's a crock to me but the fact remains that targetting or criticizing or hating Islam is as ill-informed and laughably broad as to do the same to Christianity.
I don't hate Islam, I just don't believe in it.
I think people who do are deceiving themselves or being deceived but I also think the same of Christians.
Its their right to believe what they will, but not to use it as a justification to muscle their beliefs onto others.
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldview of a practising Muslim?
Not as complete as I would prefer, but one of my developers is a practicing Muslim so he and I occasionally share our views of the world in spiritual terms. To see it through his eyes, Islam is a loving and compassionate path to god much like Christianity or other faiths. I'm inclined to agree. Only when religion is used as a tool of politics does its ideals become sufficiently twisted and corrupt to permit slaughter in its name.
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
I don't think its possible for the reason stated above. Letting religion play a factor in policymaking of any kind ultimately corrupts its ideals in my opinion.
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
I think everyone would do well to understand those who make us an enemy, and understand that their reasons for doing so are based on an extreme distortion of that faith. Islam is no less about love and compassion than Christianity or any other faith.
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
I care a great deal because I believe the critical question that was not asked by our administration in the aftermath of 9-11 is "why?". Failure to address the reason why such a significant portion of the muslim world hates us and the inability to provide a competing world view is one of many reasons why the current War on Terror is doomed to a miserable failure.
Doc
Not as complete as I would prefer, but one of my developers is a practicing Muslim so he and I occasionally share our views of the world in spiritual terms. To see it through his eyes, Islam is a loving and compassionate path to god much like Christianity or other faiths. I'm inclined to agree. Only when religion is used as a tool of politics does its ideals become sufficiently twisted and corrupt to permit slaughter in its name.
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
I don't think its possible for the reason stated above. Letting religion play a factor in policymaking of any kind ultimately corrupts its ideals in my opinion.
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
I think everyone would do well to understand those who make us an enemy, and understand that their reasons for doing so are based on an extreme distortion of that faith. Islam is no less about love and compassion than Christianity or any other faith.
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
I care a great deal because I believe the critical question that was not asked by our administration in the aftermath of 9-11 is "why?". Failure to address the reason why such a significant portion of the muslim world hates us and the inability to provide a competing world view is one of many reasons why the current War on Terror is doomed to a miserable failure.
Doc
QUOTE(Yukon @ Apr 25 2004, 12:05 PM)
I think you would have to be an idiot to not be able to see the hostile nature and commands for the Muslims.
Tone down the inflammatory rhetoric and stick to the questions to debate. No one is an idiot for posting an opinion on this forum.
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldveiw of a practising Muslim?
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
Do you care?
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldveiw of a practising Muslim?
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
Do you care?
QUOTE(Yukon @ Apr 25 2004, 04:05 PM)
Let's let the Koran decide this "killing of infidels" issue for us. I will give you a few more verses so you can understand the aggressiveness and ruthless mentality of Islam. You need to know that there are many more like these verses that are just as telling.
Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."
It should be clear that this verse commands Muslims to wage war on all non-Muslims around them. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this out.
Verse 47:3 - "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."
That is what I call a harsh religion. You are supposed to strike off the heads of those to whom you evangelize?
Verse 48:29 - "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."
Verse 66:9 - "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate."
I think you would have to be an idiot to not be able to see the hostile nature and commands for the Muslims. It is clear with just these verses that the war they are commanded to wage on all non-Muslims is not evangelizing. They are commanded to fight to kill all non-Muslims including atheists, secularists, humanists, evolutionists, and all other religions but you will find that the Koran places special emphasis on killing off Jews and Christians. This is probably because of the rejection the Jews and Christians gave Muhammad.
Muslim = PEACE, yeah just like Hitler loved the Jews !
Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."
It should be clear that this verse commands Muslims to wage war on all non-Muslims around them. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this out.
Verse 47:3 - "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."
That is what I call a harsh religion. You are supposed to strike off the heads of those to whom you evangelize?
Verse 48:29 - "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."
Verse 66:9 - "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate."
I think you would have to be an idiot to not be able to see the hostile nature and commands for the Muslims. It is clear with just these verses that the war they are commanded to wage on all non-Muslims is not evangelizing. They are commanded to fight to kill all non-Muslims including atheists, secularists, humanists, evolutionists, and all other religions but you will find that the Koran places special emphasis on killing off Jews and Christians. This is probably because of the rejection the Jews and Christians gave Muhammad.
Muslim = PEACE, yeah just like Hitler loved the Jews !
Quoting out of context makes for a poor argument.
Furthermore, the same could be done with Christianity, but it would still make a poor point.
For example:
“When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)
“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deuteronomy 20:10-17)
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)
Even in the New Testament we read the following statements attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:
“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)
"Do not think that I have come to send peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" (Matthew 10:34-35)
The previous post citing verses from the Qur'an instructing Muslims to kill those who don't believe reminds me of a verse from the Bible in which Jesus instructs his followers to kill those who do not accept his reign.
And yet I think most Christians would agree that the spirit of Christianity is not to slay those who do not believe as you do, even if the Bible tells you so.
I don't think we should "let the Qur'an decide the issue for us." I think we have to look a little deeper than that and try to ascertain what most Muslims really believe in practice. Most of the prominent and well-respected Islamic clerics preach tolerance of non-believers and refer to those verses of the Qur'an which support that position, in spite of the verses that preach making war. As with many things, it really comes down to people and their individual beliefs.
With regard to the issue as to whether or not we should try to learn more about Islam in the context of the WOT, I think we should. How could understanding them better possibly hurt? What do we have to lose by learning more about them?
QUOTE(Jesus speaking in Luke 19:27)
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
And yet I think most Christians would agree that the spirit of Christianity is not to slay those who do not believe as you do, even if the Bible tells you so.
I don't think we should "let the Qur'an decide the issue for us." I think we have to look a little deeper than that and try to ascertain what most Muslims really believe in practice. Most of the prominent and well-respected Islamic clerics preach tolerance of non-believers and refer to those verses of the Qur'an which support that position, in spite of the verses that preach making war. As with many things, it really comes down to people and their individual beliefs.
With regard to the issue as to whether or not we should try to learn more about Islam in the context of the WOT, I think we should. How could understanding them better possibly hurt? What do we have to lose by learning more about them?
Azure,
Please reference ONE single post in the New Testament where our Lord Jesus states that those who do not believe in Him should be killed? Don't watse your time because you can't. Christianity, to those who follow the NEW Testament, teaches us to love and reject hatred and killing.
Please reference ONE single post in the New Testament where our Lord Jesus states that those who do not believe in Him should be killed? Don't watse your time because you can't. Christianity, to those who follow the NEW Testament, teaches us to love and reject hatred and killing.
QUOTE(Yukon @ Apr 25 2004, 01:31 PM)
Please reference ONE single post in the New Testament where our Lord Jesus states that those who do not believe in Him should be killed? Don't watse your time because you can't.
I referenced a verse were Jesus instructs his followers to "kill those who do not accept his reign." Please share your perspective... how do you interpret Luke 19:27?
QUOTE
Christianity, to those who follow the NEW Testament, teaches us to love and reject hatred and killing.
I too believe that the spirit of Christianity is to teach love and reject hate. My point was that quoting verses from the Qur'an or the Bible to stereotype an entire group of religious people as hostile and hate-filled is a mistake.
We're getting pretty far away from the debate questions.
TOPICS TO DEBATE:
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldveiw of a practising Muslim?
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
Please note, this thread has required a lot of babysitting already. Any further violations or meandering, we're going to close it.
TOPICS TO DEBATE:
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldveiw of a practising Muslim?
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
Please note, this thread has required a lot of babysitting already. Any further violations or meandering, we're going to close it.
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldveiw of a practising Muslim?
Honestly, I have very little understanding of the worldview from Muslim perspective. I lived for a while with a devout Muslim (from Afghanistan actually) and a French Catholic - so I've had some serious religous discussions about Islam... But then even his worldview is different from that of some of my close friends who are various degrees of "practicing" muslim. Because just as in Christianity there are "practicing" christians who just go to church once or twice a year and then there are practicing christians who war only homespun and fast several times a year. So, I think the biggest thing I gleaned from all of this is the view from Islam is as varied as the view from Christianity.... but the view I have is a lot closer to my third generation American classmate than the view from someone who is a muslim Brit or the view of someone currently living in Iraq, Afghanistan or any other war torn nation.
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
I guess the key here would be to find out what the world view of the various factions in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc is - especially what is the world view that breeds suicide bombers and other terrorists - and see if it will change how we carry out certain campaigns. For example, there would be no reason to set up camp on top of a holy site and cause people to hate us for no reason... Otherwise, I really don't see too much how their worldview affects the WOT such as it is.
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
I think what is important is education so we don't breed our version of hate here in the US. While many of us are able to look at the Religion of Islam and see there are as many variations and opinions on the Koran as there is in Christianity or Hinduism or any other major religions thats been around more than 100 years, but some people cannot - and this can cause future problems that might be avoided with education.
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
I care as a student of spirituality, but not so much as far as the WOT.
Honestly, I have very little understanding of the worldview from Muslim perspective. I lived for a while with a devout Muslim (from Afghanistan actually) and a French Catholic - so I've had some serious religous discussions about Islam... But then even his worldview is different from that of some of my close friends who are various degrees of "practicing" muslim. Because just as in Christianity there are "practicing" christians who just go to church once or twice a year and then there are practicing christians who war only homespun and fast several times a year. So, I think the biggest thing I gleaned from all of this is the view from Islam is as varied as the view from Christianity.... but the view I have is a lot closer to my third generation American classmate than the view from someone who is a muslim Brit or the view of someone currently living in Iraq, Afghanistan or any other war torn nation.
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
I guess the key here would be to find out what the world view of the various factions in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc is - especially what is the world view that breeds suicide bombers and other terrorists - and see if it will change how we carry out certain campaigns. For example, there would be no reason to set up camp on top of a holy site and cause people to hate us for no reason... Otherwise, I really don't see too much how their worldview affects the WOT such as it is.
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
I think what is important is education so we don't breed our version of hate here in the US. While many of us are able to look at the Religion of Islam and see there are as many variations and opinions on the Koran as there is in Christianity or Hinduism or any other major religions thats been around more than 100 years, but some people cannot - and this can cause future problems that might be avoided with education.
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
I care as a student of spirituality, but not so much as far as the WOT.
QUOTE(Yukon @ Apr 25 2004, 07:31 PM)
Azure,
Please reference ONE single post in the New Testament where our Lord Jesus states that those who do not believe in Him should be killed? Don't watse your time because you can't. Christianity, to those who follow the NEW Testament, teaches us to love and reject hatred and killing.
Please reference ONE single post in the New Testament where our Lord Jesus states that those who do not believe in Him should be killed? Don't watse your time because you can't. Christianity, to those who follow the NEW Testament, teaches us to love and reject hatred and killing.
Man- you really need to study your bible alot more if you are going to be making statement like that here-
Now- there is a basic ban on this site from religious argument- and for good reason-
but- if you are going to meld the political and religious argument- you should be more informed on both sides of the argument
Christianity, buy it's own words and deeds- is far more violent than Islam- however- as far as the WOT- it doesn't really matter- because we are talking about splinter groups here. The wahibists (sp) are no more the majority of Islam than the IRA is the majority of all christians- at no point did the world turn and say "let's shut down all christianity because the IRA shows us that Christianity is an essentially violent religioun that needs to be shut down.
QUOTE(Azure-Citizen)
I referenced a verse were Jesus instructs his followers to "kill those who do not accept his reign." Please share your perspective... how do you interpret Luke 19:27?
You referenced the parable of the ten pounds (Luke 19:12-27), and you merely quoted the last verse. That was not a command Jesus ever gave. He was telling an illustrative story. Please do not take things out of context.
This much I know, that those who aspire to follow Mohammed believe in Moses and Jesus as prophets, and they believe that Abraham is their father, through Hagar's son Ishmael. I know that many Muslims believe that Ishmael as the firstborn was God's chosen, not Isaac. They harbor a hatred for Israel which carries over to the allies of Israel. Islam means "to submit."
I also know that women are seen differently in the religion of Islam. They are to be kept pure; they represent their family's honor by remaining virgins until they are married. Unfortunately, in many Muslim countries, a man's word is taken over the word of a woman in cases of rape. Even if a woman who is covered up modestly (as with a burkha), if a man says she seduced him, many times the family will stone their own daughter/sister because "she" has disgraced the family. There are some women in prisons being held there because their families would kill them if they were on the outside.
I respect Islam, but, as with other faiths, there are still some serious bugs to be worked out.
QUOTE
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldveiw of a practising Muslim?
Yes I do, the Koran was required reading for my work in the service. So I do understand what it says. Have known and liked a number of Muslims my entire life. I feel that I do understand the religion well enough. Understanding the people is another story. QUOTE
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
I do not feel the western world understands the situation at all. They are thinking that the fundamentalists are a minority, when it is truly the moderates that are. QUOTE
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
I think that some here have hit upon the problem, but in reality it is the other way around. The problem lies within the Muslims viewpoints, nothing we say or do will change that. QUOTE
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
Heck yes this is too important and affects far too many people to ignore. I might suggest a very good book to start with "The Trouble With Islam: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith" (St. Martin's Press) by Irshad Manji. A review of her book and the basic elements are available on the web but here is one for those that care to look A Muslim woman's 'Call for Reform' from the Boston Globe.
QUOTE(loreng59 @ Apr 26 2004, 04:27 PM)
I do not feel the western world understands the situation at all. They are thinking that the fundamentalists are a minority, when it is truly the moderates that are.
I agree on this Loreng, and that's what worries me about the WOT in relationship to it. The means in this case may not justify the ends if we are empowering the fundamentalists without offering an alternative worldview or finding a way of embracing the moderates, whether they be in the minority or not.
Doc
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldveiw of a practising Muslim?
Are you implying that all practicing Muslims share the same worldview? Do all Christians - or all Americans - share the same worldview? Overgeneralization does not lend itself to a clear understanding of the issue.
Besides the Sunni-Shi'a split, there are significant differences between the varying schools of Islamic thought within each of the two main branches of Islam, as well as a very broad and vague range of what you could consider a "practicing" Muslim. Both sectarian and national influences shade the perception of the world for every practicing Muslim.
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
I'm going to be lazy and pass on this one. But slinging chapter and verse at each other in a selective and hostile manner does absolutely nothing to enhance understanding of anything.
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
I do believe that anyone who wishes to understand the influence of radical Islam upon the so-called GWOT should definitely pursue such study.
In fact, the International Crisis Group just published on-line the first two in a 4 part series on Islamism, Terrorism and Reform in North Africa - it makes for a good read.
Islamism in North Africa I: The Legacies of History
Islamism in North Africa II: Egypt's Opportunity
Do you care?
Yes.
Are you implying that all practicing Muslims share the same worldview? Do all Christians - or all Americans - share the same worldview? Overgeneralization does not lend itself to a clear understanding of the issue.
Besides the Sunni-Shi'a split, there are significant differences between the varying schools of Islamic thought within each of the two main branches of Islam, as well as a very broad and vague range of what you could consider a "practicing" Muslim. Both sectarian and national influences shade the perception of the world for every practicing Muslim.
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
I'm going to be lazy and pass on this one. But slinging chapter and verse at each other in a selective and hostile manner does absolutely nothing to enhance understanding of anything.
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
I do believe that anyone who wishes to understand the influence of radical Islam upon the so-called GWOT should definitely pursue such study.
In fact, the International Crisis Group just published on-line the first two in a 4 part series on Islamism, Terrorism and Reform in North Africa - it makes for a good read.
Islamism in North Africa I: The Legacies of History
Islamism in North Africa II: Egypt's Opportunity
Do you care?
Yes.
QUOTE(christopher @ Apr 24 2004, 04:16 PM)
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldveiw of a practising Muslim?
Not really.
QUOTE
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
I doubt many politicians understand Islam. Heck, I doubt a lot of Muslims truly understand Islam.
QUOTE
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
Perhaps. But also an understanding of Middle Eastern culture, history, politics, and sociology would be nice too.
QUOTE
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
I do from a religious point of view, but not necessarily from a political point of view.
QUOTE
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldveiw of a practising Muslim?
As some have posted here, I have known Muslims along the way (not in the Biblical sense). Worldview seems as diverse among Muslims as any other group of religious practitioners. Shoot, in college I knew two Afghanis, Ahmad and Mohammad, brothers. They had very different world views, as was true among my brothers as well. So my understanding is that there is no such thing as a worldview of a practicing Muslim, at least not a common one.
QUOTE
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
Okay, I've compared my understanding about the worldview of a practicing Muslim with current policy in the WOT and Iraq. I see no comparison whatsoever. One does not exist and the other does. By not sharing existence, they can have nothing in common.
QUOTE
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
I already did that after 9/11. Islam confuses me almost as much as Christianity. I just wish that books on Islam could be written by people with the same dictionary. Variations in spelling just annoy me, and variations in terms for the same darn thing do more so. Let's just say I lost interest in furthering my studies.
QUOTE
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
About what? Studying more Islam? Nope. About our policies regarding WOT and Iraq? Yep. That plus another mountain of issues that are out of scope.
QUOTE(christopher @ Apr 24 2004, 04:16 PM)
Do you have an actual understanding of the worldveiw of a practising Muslim?
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
Compare this understanding to current policy in the WOT and Iraq?
Should you think about learning about Islam before the WOT continues any further?
Do you care? (I think this is the most important question)
I would have to say yes to the first question. Islam has kind of been a pet interest of mine in that I've always liked reading about the different sects of Islam, as well as appreciating the writings of the Sufi poets and wanderers. A decent understanding is definitely needed among our forces in Iraq. To use a different example--I don't know that much about east Asian religions, but if I were going to start a war over there, I would try and read up on their customs and make an effort to not create a greater problem over simple courtesies and customs. I see little effort among our own leaders(both political and military) to try and overcome this burden. Just imagine how much pain and anguish we could've saved ourselves if we tried to understand these people a bit better.
On reflection of recent events I would love all of these questions to have been directed to each and every coalition soldier. I'm sure the results would have been fascinating (and pretty damn terrifying).
Schooly
Schooly
QUOTE(Schoolboy @ May 7 2004, 05:14 PM)
On reflection of recent events I would love all of these questions to have been directed to each and every coalition soldier. I'm sure the results would have been fascinating (and pretty damn terrifying).
Schooly
Schooly
Terrifying it would be. Everyone knows that a large composit of our forces come from the lower and middle classes. The military should have recognized that they don't have Ph.D. candidates in Biology(or in this case, theological studies) and set up some courses on training the troops about Islam and its beliefs. Perhaps that is why we have poor, trailer-park reservists ignorantly torturing Iraqis who have a deep since of pride and ethics in their morality. We are shooting ourselves in the foot because hey!, We're America and that means not having to know a whole more than who is the NASCAR points leader.
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