Well- I am going to give this a stab- it keeps getting closed by whomever posts it because it is a very hard question to nail down and not be too vague-

as someone else said- the feminist movement concentrates (and probably rightly so) on the disadvantages of being female and minimizes the advantages.

For instance- in divorce- the woman is always believed regardless of evidence, given custody with the view that mom's are more important than dads, there is no catch phrase "dead beat Mom's" (even though I know personally of a couple cases) - mothers aren't arrested for non-payment of support, when there is accusation of violence, the man is always considered the agressor- this is just in relationship issues-

the hardest for me to quantify and part of my own feelings is lack of responsibility for actions and total acceptance of victimization by the women's culture in America- and on top of that, disdain and lack of acceptance of the male role in our culture.

For instance, when a woman commits a crime, in literally the hundreds of cases I have attended, each and every one, the woman blames a man for her behavior as part of her defense- and I mean every one. Now- criminal men blame others too, but they rarely just blame women as a group. And all cases of violence from women towards men are ignored out of hand in court.

Now, I have heard many prominent speakers speak on success of different races and creeds- and they all say the same thing- acceptance of responsibility of your failures and learning to change those behaviors and not blame others is the one of the main secrets to success- okay, you had a tough life, dust yourself off, don't make the same mistakes, and try again.

So my question is- Can therebe equality between genders without bearing equal responsibility and equal punishment/sanctions for mistakes when they re made?

I once heard a real estate executive of some caliber and standing say, to a group of men only "listen, I will hire a woman executive when I hear one that says- listen, I screwed up, and here is how I plan to rectify it next time, instead of blaming others". It said alot about his feelings of the glass cieling

My grandfather said "Women will cease to be treated as success objects when they stop treating men as success objects".

If this topic is closed because of vagueness, and needs to be narrowed further, please PM me with ideas on how to proceed- I have seen this topic shut down many times!

This thread may not be closed because of vague questions, but because of emotionally-charged responses to your ill-disguised insults to women.

What is the point of you including your grandfather's sexist views on women? I'm sure that I've already told you how ridiculous his statement is before, but I'll do it again: women are not responsible for the way men act. For you to champion individual responsibility but then believe that "Women will cease to be treated as success objects when they stop treating men as success objects" is hypocritical. Women are not all greedy female dogs, believe it or not. As a matter of fact, if your grandfather would listen to some relatively modern music - like oh, say, "Independent Woman" by Destiny's Child - he'd realize that quite a few women actually pride themselves on being able to financially support themselves and not being dependent upon any man.

There are definitely cases where women are the aggressors in the relationship to the point of violence and the men aren't. However, it is no where near on the scale that male violence towards women is, so quite naturally it doesn't garner the same attention. Big deal.

As for "in divorce- the woman is always believed regardless of evidence, given custody with the view that mom's are more important than dads, there is no catch phrase "dead beat Mom's" (even though I know personally of a couple cases) - mothers aren't arrested for non-payment of support, when there is accusation of violence, the man is always considered the agressor- this is just in relationship issues-" I'd be a little careful using the word always. I seriously doubt that the woman is always, in every single case believed regardless of evidence, and that mothers aren't arrested for not paying child support. Men are not always, in every single instance known to man, considered the aggressor - what's with the broad assertions here, with absolutely no proof?

All I see here is you trying to make a case that women are terrible and that society doesn't do enough to highlight that fact

"listen, I will hire a woman executive when I hear one that says- listen, I screwed up, and here is how I plan to rectify it next time, instead of blaming others" - excuse me while I throw up. Yes, women are all the same - greedy selfish pigs who never take responsibility for anything and never give anything of themselves, yet are continuously coddled by society. And men are perfect angels, right? That must be why he hires only male executives - because men never try to pass up on responsibility.

Can therebe equality between genders without bearing equal responsibility and equal punishment/sanctions for mistakes when they re made?

What kind of question is that? "Yes, there can be equality without equal responsibility and punishment" - how can we not say no? Besides, you haven't exactly provided irrefutable proof for these assertions:

Claim 1: in divorce- the woman is always believed regardless of evidence, given custody with the view that mom's are more important than dads.

Claim 2: mothers aren't arrested for non-payment of support

Claim 3: where there is accusation of violence, the man is always considered the agressor

Claim 4: all cases of violence from women towards men are ignored out of hand in court.

Coupled with the quote from your grandfather and the sexist real estate executive, and this post reeks of anti-female vibes.

You are right SS- it is almost impossible to start this thread because of the emotions surrounding it- how dare anyone suggest women ever to be to blame in any situation in America- it is always the mans fault- right?

It is darn hard to get anything emprical that deals with men other than health issues- because the studies are funded by womens groups to help women- look at womens shelters for abuse that refuse to take men who are abused in Washington.

Yes- it almost always has to be anecdotal- which makes it very hard to have statistics on it- because the system is geared towards women in these regards.

So- if you have a better way of stating the issue- please PM me- but really- all you usually get from the opposite sex in this debate is "it can't possibly be the fault of women, men are way worse"- last post is a shining example- right?

CruisingRam, you did a lot more than just "suggest" women ever be to blame in any situation in America - you lashed an all out attack on them.

Do you honestly think that statements like:

"Women will cease to be treated as success objects when they stop treating men as success objects"

and

"I once heard a real estate executive of some caliber and standing say, to a group of men only "listen, I will hire a woman executive when I hear one that says- listen, I screwed up, and here is how I plan to rectify it next time, instead of blaming others". It said alot about his feelings of the glass cieling"

are merely "suggesting" than women are to blame for any situation in America?

I never even remotely suggested, anywhere, that things are always the man's fault. However, I certainly didn't feel the need to point out any imperfections in women when you'd done such a sterling job of it earlier. My post had nothing to do with men, but your attacks on women in the original thread.

Please point out my "shining example" of where I even hinted that nothing is a woman's fault. I felt no need to attack women, sorry. What I did feel a need to do was to point out the blatant sexism in your post and ask for some proof of your assertions, which you have yet to do... maybe because there aren't any?



Christ, did you even bother to read my response? Here's a nice little quote of my "it can't possibly be the fault of women, men are way worse" mentality: "There are definitely cases where women are the aggressors in the relationship to the point of violence and the men aren't." I guess people only see what they want to, because that certainly doesn't fit in nice and neat with my supposed "women are perfect" theory.

Okay - assuming I misread your post and mine was too hostile- back to the question- is there any culpability in the quest for equality for the women's side of the equation?

Some of the statements which have been made here are so sweeping that one cannot help but be skeptical. The woman is always believed, always given custody, the man is always considered the aggressor? You have to admit that these are extraordinary claims.

Certainly, injustice is done to men on the basis of sex. One of the greatest wrongs done to men is society's message that men must be aggressive, even violent, to truly be "manly." One of the most important goals of feminism is to free men from these stereotypes.

Let's consider the case of "deadbeat moms." Here's an article from Fox News, hardly a hotbed of radical feminism.

Moms Can Be Deadbeats Too

A quick look at this article makes it sound like men are really getting the short end of the stick here:



That 11 percent difference is not huge, but certainly significant. However, let's consider that fact in the light of this information, from the same source:



Two million compared to less than 300,000. No wonder the media pays more attention to "deadbeat dads"; there are a lot more of them.

And look at this:



With non-custodial dads making two and two-thirds times as much money as non-custodial moms, it's amazing that the difference in the rate of payment of child support is as small as it is. Based on income alone, one would expect only about 25 percent of moms to pay child support.

My point is that I doubt there is a huge conspiracy to always favor women in these sorts of situations. I do not deny at all that men can be the victims of injustices in the courtroom and the boardroom, or that they can be the victims of domestic violence. Such cases are to be condemned in the strongest possible terms.

This does not, in any way, justify the statement made by the real estate executive. Do you really expect me to believe that women are less likely to take responsibility for professional mistakes than men? I find this another extraordinarily unlikely claim. If anything, the stereotype would be that women are supposed to be more caring for others than men, and that they would be more likely to accept blame. (Let me state here that I do not believe this stereotype for a second, and that failure to accept responsibility is a vice shared equally by both sexes.)

The way your question for debate is put, I doubt whether anyone can answer it negatively. Of course equal rights must be accompanied by equal responsibility. This could easily serve as the motto of feminism. Feminists want to obtain equal rights in the workplace and in the political system; feminists want to share equal responsibilities for child care.

Women and men are not enemies in the fight against sexism; they are allies.

In your own posting- look how many more Mom's are awarded custody than men- are women somehow just inherently a better parent? Isn't that a bit of a sexist belief in and of itself? If my math is right here- around 1% of men are awarded custody in custody battles- certainly not "always" but darn certain to happen eh?

I am very good friends since high school with a divorce lawyer- and as she put it- "for a woman to lose custody, she pretty much has to walk into court drunk and naked and even then it is dicey". Is this sexist?

"Women and men are not enemies in the fight against sexism; they are allies. "

The cynic in me wishes to believe this- but does not for a minute- it is about power- and battles for power are always nasty and brutal. History shows us this

but the question is- why, in all the developed countries- is it so much nastier, as a culture, for the US? In the vien of a thread here were we talked about men being portrayed as buffoons in just about every commercial, and physical violence to the genitals of men being one of the most popular site gags in sitcoms- why is there such a hatred of men as a group being portrayed in our culture?

Yet, in all this- there is no culpability for behavior for the woman in our culture either.

There is some of what you say that I agree with. In particular, I don't like at all the idea that child custody should usually be awarded to the woman. This happens because modern society still promotes the idea that women should primarily find fulfillment as wives and mothers, and that men should primarily find fulfillment through everything else. This is a terrible stereotype that hurts everyone.

I don't like representations in the media of men as beer-guzzling idiots. I don't like representations in the media of women as airheads who only care about shopping for shoes. Let's agree that media representations are unfair to both sexes and try to improve them.

I certainly don't approve of excusing women for bad behavior on the basis of their sex. I certainly don't approve of excusing men for bad behavior because "boys will be boys."

Maybe my rose-colored glasses are on too tight, but I just don't see this "hatred of men" you speak about. I am sure there are some women who hate men; I pity them, as I pity men who hate women. I think both are rare.

"This happens because modern society still promotes the idea that women should primarily find fulfillment as wives and mothers, and that men should primarily find fulfillment through everything else. "

This is the statement I have the most problem in our society with- for some reason, in our society especially- it is somehow less prestigious to be a wife and mother. My primary fulfillment comes through being a father and a husband- everything else is secondary- my career, my hobbies, my friends. Our society is so materialistic that fulfillment outside family is more important that fulfillment inside the family.

Using my personal frame of reference, I go to a "macho" society like Russia- were men must be men- to the point of piggishness IMO in many forms (with some societal variations you can find startling sometimes.LOL) In Russia- if a woman has six children, that make it through thier equivilent of high school- they are celebrated throughout the city and sometime the nation- motherhood is more prestigous than being mayor of a city, for man or woman.

Why, in the feminist movement- is motherhood as a primary source of fulfillment, less important than being a CEO? God- given the choice of being a CEO or being a stay at home Dad- I would stay at home any day.

But your own statement belies what I am thinking in this debate- that somehow- men love thier careers and find fulfillment in that instead of the reality of most of the world- we go to work because we have to support our families- and put up with the drudgery for the moments happiness we find in hearth and home- but somehow the career's we have to endure is "fulfilment".

Do men somehow have more choice in thier life when we know, that if the relationship ends, our children, for all intents and purposes, will be removed from us, and, if we have a fairly fair minded wife, we may get the possible opportunity to see our kids on the weekends (there is no real enforcement on this side of the equation- women can play all kinds of games with visitation with no real sanction) yet, by the courts, we are only seen as walking wallets?

I think we drift this topic when we talk about a "hatred" of men or women by the opposite sex. I think the topic needs to stay more about "equality" and "responsibility" to keep it from having the wheels come off.

Yes, there are biases in this society. The examples you chose, CR -- divorce, the glass ceiling -- show that many people have these biases. Judges -- who aren't supposed to have biases -- have biases. Not all are biased, though, so it's hard to talk about the rules when there are so many exceptions.

For example, in my divorce proceedings, I ended up with a judge who didn't believe a word of my ex-wife. She got zero from him. Was he biased toward me? Hard to know for certain.

Certainly there are judges here in Georgia who will grant custody to the woman regardless and who will take her word about any abuse regardless of physical evidence. I think this happens more in rural areas than in urban areas, though (just a guess, no empirical evidence, but anecdotal evidence suggests...).

As for the glass ceiling, women are busting through all the time. The biggest problem there is that people really hire those with whom they are most comfortable. Since men are the predominant people in the boardroom -- especially older white men -- they like to hire those who are most like them. Again, this is more about the rules instead of the exceptions. How many of the Fortune 500 are run by women? Not many.

Is it about blaming others? Well, Omarosa notwithstanding , I think it's more about our own biases than a predefined "woman's defense". I think that when we look to our own biases about women and men, we can see that our prejudices get in the way of being judicious about genders, races, religions, etc. Many of us aspire to be better, but we're not there yet. Some do not have those aspiration -- they're just ducky thinking that women are the "weaker sex".

Remember: women didn't have the right to vote until 80 or so years ago. Gays don't have the right to marry the person they love, but 20 years ago, TV couldn't even acknowledge that they existed except as a sitcom plot line. Progress is slow. Changing people's opinions take time. Younger folks are more accepting of change than older ones, so sometimes we have to wait for a few generations to pass before we acheive full "equality" in one division of our world. It's not necessarily "right", but it's the way we are as a society.

In a capitalist society like this one, part of being a family man or woman is giving your children an economic edge. We all see how poverty effects inner city youths. Your equation that CEO=bad parent is fallacious.


My personal experience comes from having money to do things together as a family. My family's primary goal for charging up the corporate ladder is to gain the wealth we need to be able to take time off with family. Not all people are like that, but not all career-oriented people are anti-family values. I don't believe that our society is materialistic to a fault. I also don't believe that we, as a society, put material things above family value.


That's great. Seriously - I wish good parents got to ride around on floats in some sort of American celebration. Someone should start a tradition like this.


It isn't. The feminist movement is all about not imposing boundaries on yourself. Did you see Mona Lisa's Smile? The girls thought that they had to get married OR go to law school. They didn't realize they could do both. That's the focus of feminism - advocating that ALL PEOPLE have choices, and that ALL PEOPLE can set their standards higher. There is no reason that one parent can't have a career just to procreate.


Men have always had the choice. Feminism is about giving women the choice.


Some men are fulfilled by their jobs. Any man who isn't happy with his job is free to find another one. Any man who doesn't want to work, but instead raise a family - is free to do that but only if he is married to one of those independent women that you seem to think have their priorities all screwed up.



Acting like a powerless victim is broadway drama. Again, men (and women) have all the choice in the world of choosing who they want to marry. And your wife cannot divorce you without good reason. If a woman comes to court asking for a divorce without a good reason and the man doesn't want a divorce, 90% of judges will rule mandatory marriage counselling before they will award a divorce. Especially if there are children involved. Your claim that there is no real enforcement of visitation rights is bogus. Any man who makes a stink about not receiving the allotted time with his kids will get the enforcement he needs. Men who just sit back and cry, 'poor me' probably don't get any visitation right enforcement.

Oh, really--exactly when did this phenomenon occur? This is ignoring the ramifications of the wage discrepancies between men and women--this forces the man down the career path. We don't have any choice--we have to be the providers (yes, using absolutes...there are exceptions, but not that many). In essence, the role of family provider is simply thrust on us. Failure to understand this is exactly what CR is pointing out in his post--men's issues are generally ignored in our society.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this exactly the 'place the blame elsewhere' phenomenon CR is talking about? At the very least, it again demonstrates the lack of recognition of men's issues that led CR to post.



Granted. But if, from this, you are inferring that men have equal custody rights as women, you are sadly mistaken. Essentially, our role in child custody and parental responsibilty decisions is that of walking wallet. If you doubt this, I would strongly recommend that you attend a 'Dad's have rights too' meeting--I think you will find the encounter extremely enlightening.

CR doesn't even go into the vast litany of men's issues. Here is just one of many links. There are numerous health issues, social issues, child custody issues. For many of these, the only really accepted attitude has been 'shut up and deal with it'. Which I imagine was the case, at one time, with women's issues, and race issues. Clearly, we as a society aren't even at the stage of recognizing these are problems, at least not universally, but certain issues (custody being one) are starting to achieve prominence. From the posts I see here, though, it's obvious we have a long, long ways to go.

Just because we are the most materialistic society on this earth doesn't mean we are materialistic to a fault. I don't agree that our materialism causes a decline in family values. Nor do I believe that our family values are in decline. Just because the religious right in this country is vocal about how society is moving away from religious bigotry and more towards religious freedom, that doesn't mean that family values are in decline. Someone who agrees with me.



You do have a choice, you do not have to be the providers. I don't know where you got that ludicrous notion. You definitely don't have to be the provider. Any man who feels that way needs to get out more. Or maybe this is the age barrier - women my age are more qualified and more educated then the men my age. So perhaps your view is due to a generation gap.


Who's placing the blame elsewhere? Men who are upset about what they do in life can blame no one but themselves. No one forced you to take a boring, low-paying job. No one forced you to marry a woman with no marketable skills. If you want to be a stay at home dad, and you find yourself in a position that you can't do it for whatever reason, you can blame no one but yourself for the decisions you made to get you there.


My dad didn't gain custody of us, so I know what you mean. Each individual case should be evaluated by the judge, and I think as time goes on, choosing the full-time custodian will become more scrutinized.

Interesting. I'm assuming, then, that you also feel the opposite is the case? That being the women who taking boring, low-paying jobs, who are forced to stay at home by the job market, and who can't get the job they'd like, (who get pregnant out-of-wedlock?) have no one but themselves to blame for the decisions that got them there? Or are you really claiming that these issues don't exist, or if they do men (uniquely, out of all other groups) are solely responsible for that situation?

In all reality, these responses are doing nothing more than proving my point--there is a complete ignorance out there of most of the issues men face. Honestly, what would be the reaction if such a response were generated in a women's issue's post? I'm quite sure we'd be ridiculed out of the room, and tarred and feathered for our lack of sensitivity and recognition of the real issues they faced.

In short, this is trying to have your cake and eat it too. Either there are gender gaps or there are not. To claim they only go one way is patently ridiculous--every action has an equal and opposite reaction. For example, if there is indeed a wage gap for women (and there is), to think this doesn't have repurcussions for the males is taking an extremely limited view of the situation. Just as women would say they can't get the pay they should for their skill set, it would be equally true then that this would force the men to be the providers in the family.



Assuming, just for argument, I am in fact of an older generation--perhaps then the difference is experience vs. idealism? Or is this just more blame-placing?

I feel your post was just a tad disingenuous, but I’ll jump in here. No, equality means equality. (edited here cuz I made a boneheaded answer to the first part of the question without considering the 2nd part) Sadly, women are catching up to men on the bad behavior scale:


And you're not the first to wonder. I'm sure the (generally) old farts on the judicial bench are still a bit reluctant to sentence a woman the same as they would a man, except in egregious cases. But is that women's fault? No.

And do you really expect a criminal, regardless of gender, to take responsibility for their actions? As for “criminal men blame others too, but they rarely just blame women as a group”, I say HORSEPUCKY. A lot of men regularly blame women as a group for anything and everything wrong in their lives. Maybe you are just trying to “stir the pot”. Eh, whatever.

I believe that women and men are all equal I do not ever stereotype men as "pigs" or "always wrong." I also believe strongly men should be considered when giving custody to either parents because a lot of times the mother is a drug adict like my friend's mother is.. and yet she was still given custody purely because she is a woman. I am all for men's rights. I am a young woman myself and I feel it very poorly of a lot of women to treat men as if they're to blame for every single that bad that happens to them. Being with my boyfriend for 2 years now I've began to understand how bad it really is for guys. I am deeply sorry for any of you that have had to deal with some of the "stuck up, rude women" that I'm sure you've all come across in your lifetime. You may also realize that a lot of us "women" love men and are willing to help you with any problems you have. Some of us are very nice

Hold in there it's gonna be okay

In the mean time I'd like to also bring this up outta the closet and apologize for those women that say the perfect man has the biggest (unit). That is the most false stereotype I have ever heard in my life and whoever made that bullcrap up should be locked away for damaging many young men's lives with that crude statement. The biggest (unit) mean the biggest fall on a guy's butt he ever had lol