This is spliced from the broad thread that is going on regards to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US military personnel.

What is the average America's responsibility in regards to the war in Iraq, civilian deaths, and abuses that come along with war? Are we all equally criminally culpable for the actions of the worst US soldiers, or are we each not accountable at all for the actions of our government and its armed forces in foreign nations? Or, is it somewhere in between that we can hash out in debate.

Please bring the off topic aspects of the other thread into this one for a specific debate on this topic. And start a new thread if a tangent comes to mind.

What is the average America's responsibility in regards to the war in Iraq, civilian deaths, and abuses that come along with war?

We are all responsible- because, though barely, we are a representive republic- which means our officials represent us. We simply do not hold ourselves or our officials responsible enough for this behavior.

Are we all equally criminally culpable for the actions of the worst US soldiers, or are we each not accountable at all for the actions of our government and its armed forces in foreign nations?

We are if we do not punish our goverment officials at the highest levels- If we do not- it means we accept this behavio- and simply blame "nobodies" for a widespread goverment abuse (it turns out this was not an isolated incident now)

Or, is it somewhere in between that we can hash out in debate.


We are only not culpable as a nation if we show the world that we, as a culture, do not accept this behavior, by harshly punishing those AT THE TOP INSTEAD of a couple of seargents in Iraq.

Agreed, CR.

This is being done in our name. The soldiers in Iraq are representing us. We are responsible because we sent them to war, and these are the kinds of things that happen in war -- one reason that the decision to support war should be carefully weighed. Even I as a war protestor still have some responsibility.

While we as citizens are not criminally culpable in the direct sense, we do have a responsibility to hold those responsible accountable for their actions.


To use an extreme example -- I'm sure there were some Germans during WWII who didn't like what was happening but didn't see it as their problem to stop Hitler's plans. After all, they weren't the ones doing anything, just those in the military and those issuing the commands.

But it is generally thought now that these Germans did have a responsibility to use whatever methods possible to stop the Nazis, be it open or furtive.

We don't live under as dangerous a regime as the Nazis, but we are open to punishment for speaking out against the government -- we'll be called terrorists and America haters, but still it is our duty to stop atrocities committed in our name.

Well, I refuse to take any responsiblity personally. Those of you who want to claim responsiblity go right ahead. Not me.

As for the abuse, that should not and will not be acceptable. But in no way, am I responsible. Those who did the deeds are responsible, and they will be held accountable.

I consider my only responsiblity to be to support our troops. And I do. After that, nothing.

Are we all equally criminally culpable for the actions of the worst US soldiers, or are we each not accountable at all for the actions of our government and its armed forces in foreign nations? Or, is it somewhere in between that we can hash out in debate.
Absolutely not. That premise just seems silly to me.

Were all German people held criminally culpable after WWII? Did all Germans have to undergo de-Nazification? No and no.

If a man robs a bank and shoots a teller in Miami, is Jeb Bush responsible? No.

Those that feel responsible for any current scandal or incident involving our soldiers, feel free to turn yourself in (to whom, I wouldn't know).
I do not take responsibility for the actions of soldiers, unless I have personally or directly trained them, and trained them wrongly.

I don't know about silly. I mean we are a government of the people are we not.
When my government sends representatives abroad to fight in war and even worse when it sends private contractors abroad to conduct interrogations for the Titan Corporation in a legal black hole on behalf of my country, I have an obligation and responsibility to become informed and to act.

These things happen in war. I expect worse news to emerge because war plays to our worse natures and it provides the opportunity for evil doing.

When we sent an army to Iraq, this was an expectable outcome of a long term occupation. I feel responsible. I want to learn about why private contractors were in that prison. War has been waged in my name and I feel resposnsible for the actions of the warriors.

The Germans most certainly were responsible for allowing the Nazis to gain power through democratic means and giving them a blank check to act. Were this World War II and were it a campaign to avenge Pearl Harbor, put down the fascist threat of the Axis, and liberate the world from a future of Holocausts, I might see the reason to unleash war in Iraq. I saw it in Afghanistan. I don't see it here, and I think this is a very expectable outcome.

We the people of the United States have waged this war. And this is the type of thing that happens in war. It really is not any worse than what the government has alluded to in terms of what it is doing at Guantanamo Bay.

Eeyore, maybe our disagreement is more in the way of semantics.

If US soldiers commit atrocities, I feel shamed, because they have cast me, by virtue of association, in a bad light.
And of course, I would do whatever is within my sphere of influence to right any wrongs.

But when you pose the question as 'are we equally criminally culpable', to me that is saying that we all must now pay some penance or reparation. That has a far different connotation than becoming informed and acting.

Dontreadonme



Its not simply about being criminally responsible, as much as it is about sharing general, or moral responsibility. The German people may not have been held criminally accountable after the war, but to this day they carry the shame for what 'they' did.

Even two or three generations down the line.




If he's wearing a uniform, then yes!



What is the average America's responsibility in regards to the war in Iraq, civilian deaths, and abuses that come along with war? Are we all equally criminally culpable for the actions of the worst US soldiers, or are we each not accountable at all for the actions of our government and its armed forces in foreign nations? Or, is it somewhere in between that we can hash out in debate.

Its our responsibility as voters in democracy's to ensure that the politicians we elect maintain the laws.

It is important to remember that these politicians are NOT our leaders. They are our servants. This simple fact seems to have been forgotten some where along the line, and when I read Americans referring to the President of the USA as their leader, I wonder if they are aware of how that word translates into German.

If we allow our nations or those who serve our nations to act illegally, then we share the responsibility to stop it and to remove those who allowed it to happen.

There was once an American President (I forget which one) who had a card on his desk which read, 'the buck stops here'.

By my understanding this means simply that the President takes responsibility on behalf of the people.

If the President refuses to do so, refuses for example to accept any responsibility for any wrong doing, and even allows human rights violations or other criminal activities to continue then it is the people who must carry the responsibility to remove that President.

If a man robs a bank and shoots a teller in Miami, is Jeb Bush responsible? No.

If he's wearing a uniform, then yes!


Then following your logic, by the same token every good thing they had done, (and they had done alot of good)the President gets credit for. Are you willing to do that as well?

Lethalletha



I'm not sure if I understand your question, so please bear with me if I answer the wrong question.

If a politician, like GW Bush does good, then yes, he deserves credit for that. If the people are satisified with his perormance then he deserves their vote.

DTOM,

Yes I believe our difference is in semantics. you responded to a phrase from a string of questions that were meant to be read together.

What is the level of responsibility that we bear for the actions (as American citizens) of our military in Iraq.

One extreme would be that we are criminally culpable if a soldier commits a crime.

Another extreme would be that we bear no responsibility for the actions of soldiers wearing a United States uniform.

And the closer was that somewhere in between the truth must lie and that it could be arrived at by a serious and open minded debate.

I don't feel personally responsible but I do feel ashamed of of their actions. They should be tried and prosecuted for their actions and justice should be had. My level of responsiblity is in that I must demand that the individual criminal actions of some must be prosecuted. For those that commit illegal actions but can not be prosecuted under military law (civilian contractors) well I see nothing wrong with Iraq prosecuting them. While this may not be a viable course of action, I believe that no one should be given a free card to do harm on another without repercussions.

The average American's responsibility is to speak out against actions taken in their name when they don't agree with those actions. To sit back and watch while doing nothing is tantamount to taking the actions themselves, even if you are watching in horror or shame.


As jenreiautter said:


Speaking out is not always an easy or comfortable thing to do, but it is a very important aspect of our democracy. It is a right to be exercised especially during times of crisis or turmoil and should not be discouraged.

I do not wish someday to look back upon this period of my life and try to explain to my children or grandchildren why I sat back and did nothing, allowing atrocities to continue to be committed once I learned they were occurring.



Moif,
You hit the nail on the head! America will have the opportunity this fall to make our voices heard once again. It can be our chance to speak out against foul actions taken in our name

Well, the answer is actually not as simple as it may seem. German government (read - German people) to that day pay reparations to Jewish people for the horrors of Holocaust. My sister-in-law attends a Gymnasium (an equivalent of High School) in Germany right now, and they teach the History of Holocaust and the History of Nazism there which I believe are required subjects (de-Nazification?). Don't forget that the Germany was broken in several parts and was de-facto occupied for many years after the war. Germans paid a lot and continue to pay for the sins of their fathers.

It's a well-known phrase - "People deserve their own government". Which means that people have responsibility for the government that they have. After all, that is how many people justify the "collateral damage" suffered by Iraqis - it's their own fault that they had Saddam, why didn't they overthrow him themselves? Well, by the same logic, we are responsible for the deeds of our own army, because the army is nothing more than the extension of the government we chose to have.