Full Version: Have we lost the Iraq war?
Have we lost the war in Iraq?
A simple question based on what we know now. So far, Bush has not gotten one thing right in Iraq. There were no WMDs. There was no link to 9/11. There was no Al Quada/Iraq link before we invaded. Most Iraqis don't want us there (polls show they feel better off now, but still want us out) thereby invalidating the "happy Iraqis greeting their liberators" mantra, and Iraq couldn't fund a 4th of July festival in Podunk, USA - let alone the cost of this war.
I could go on and on, but you get the point.
Anyhow, my belief is that the torture pictures have put a fork in this effort no matter how you feel about the war. Bush's last argument to justify the war (after so many, it's tough to keep up) was Saddam wasn't there to rape, murder, and torture his people any longer because it appears, we took his place.
Obviously, these actions do not represent America or our armed forces. But in the world's eyes, it does. And from what we are hearing now, this will get much, much worse. We apparently have video of rapes and murders ready to come out (at least according to Lindsay Grahm and Donald Rumsfeld) that will take this whole torture scandal to new lows.
As bad as this is, this is only the beginning.
We could find a lot of good we are doing in Iraq. No question about that. But by the same token, we could find a lot of good Saddam did while he was in power. Most of the good pales when compared with horrible actions by oppressors. And it appears we became oppressors on top of invaders and occupiers with this latest problem.
Now, all our enemies are using this scandal to recruit even more support. Both Osama Bin Laden and Al Sadr are using these acts to make their positions stronger. We may say that taking them out will negate that affect, but that's the same thing they said when we took Saddam and his two sons out (wrong again). Someone else will always be there to take their place.
I don't see any way out. It's time to declare "mission accomplished" for real and declare victory because Iraq is disarmed. If they ask for help, contribute with the rest of the UN to restore order. This mess is unfathomable. The damage to our country is immeasurable. We have become part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Bring our troops home and put those resources into protecting our homeland. The war is over and we lost.
A simple question based on what we know now. So far, Bush has not gotten one thing right in Iraq. There were no WMDs. There was no link to 9/11. There was no Al Quada/Iraq link before we invaded. Most Iraqis don't want us there (polls show they feel better off now, but still want us out) thereby invalidating the "happy Iraqis greeting their liberators" mantra, and Iraq couldn't fund a 4th of July festival in Podunk, USA - let alone the cost of this war.
I could go on and on, but you get the point.
Anyhow, my belief is that the torture pictures have put a fork in this effort no matter how you feel about the war. Bush's last argument to justify the war (after so many, it's tough to keep up) was Saddam wasn't there to rape, murder, and torture his people any longer because it appears, we took his place.
Obviously, these actions do not represent America or our armed forces. But in the world's eyes, it does. And from what we are hearing now, this will get much, much worse. We apparently have video of rapes and murders ready to come out (at least according to Lindsay Grahm and Donald Rumsfeld) that will take this whole torture scandal to new lows.
As bad as this is, this is only the beginning.
We could find a lot of good we are doing in Iraq. No question about that. But by the same token, we could find a lot of good Saddam did while he was in power. Most of the good pales when compared with horrible actions by oppressors. And it appears we became oppressors on top of invaders and occupiers with this latest problem.
Now, all our enemies are using this scandal to recruit even more support. Both Osama Bin Laden and Al Sadr are using these acts to make their positions stronger. We may say that taking them out will negate that affect, but that's the same thing they said when we took Saddam and his two sons out (wrong again). Someone else will always be there to take their place.
I don't see any way out. It's time to declare "mission accomplished" for real and declare victory because Iraq is disarmed. If they ask for help, contribute with the rest of the UN to restore order. This mess is unfathomable. The damage to our country is immeasurable. We have become part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Bring our troops home and put those resources into protecting our homeland. The war is over and we lost.
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ May 7 2004, 09:35 PM)
Have we lost the war in Iraq?
A simple question based on what we know now. So far, Bush has not gotten one thing right in Iraq. There were no WMDs. There was no link to 9/11. There was no Al Quada/Iraq link before we invaded. Most Iraqis don't want us there (polls show they feel better off now, but still want us out) thereby invalidating the "happy Iraqis greeting their liberators" mantra, and Iraq couldn't fund a 4th of July festival in Podunk, USA - let alone the cost of this war.
I could go on and on, but you get the point.
Anyhow, my belief is that the torture pictures have put a fork in this effort no matter how you feel about the war. Bush's last argument to justify the war (after so many, it's tough to keep up) was Saddam wasn't there to rape, murder, and torture his people any longer because it appears, we took his place.
Obviously, these actions do not represent America or our armed forces. But in the world's eyes, it does. And from what we are hearing now, this will get much, much worse. We apparently have video of rapes and murders ready to come out (at least according to Lindsay Grahm and Donald Rumsfeld) that will take this whole torture scandal to new lows.
As bad as this is, this is only the beginning.
We could find a lot of good we are doing in Iraq. No question about that. But by the same token, we could find a lot of good Saddam did while he was in power. Most of the good pales when compared with horrible actions by oppressors. And it appears we became oppressors on top of invaders and occupiers with this latest problem.
Now, all our enemies are using this scandal to recruit even more support. Both Osama Bin Laden and Al Sadr are using these acts to make their positions stronger. We may say that taking them out will negate that affect, but that's the same thing they said when we took Saddam and his two sons out (wrong again). Someone else will always be there to take their place.
I don't see any way out. It's time to declare "mission accomplished" for real and declare victory because Iraq is disarmed. If they ask for help, contribute with the rest of the UN to restore order. This mess is unfathomable. The damage to our country is immeasurable. We have become part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Bring our troops home and put those resources into protecting our homeland. The war is over and we lost.
A simple question based on what we know now. So far, Bush has not gotten one thing right in Iraq. There were no WMDs. There was no link to 9/11. There was no Al Quada/Iraq link before we invaded. Most Iraqis don't want us there (polls show they feel better off now, but still want us out) thereby invalidating the "happy Iraqis greeting their liberators" mantra, and Iraq couldn't fund a 4th of July festival in Podunk, USA - let alone the cost of this war.
I could go on and on, but you get the point.
Anyhow, my belief is that the torture pictures have put a fork in this effort no matter how you feel about the war. Bush's last argument to justify the war (after so many, it's tough to keep up) was Saddam wasn't there to rape, murder, and torture his people any longer because it appears, we took his place.
Obviously, these actions do not represent America or our armed forces. But in the world's eyes, it does. And from what we are hearing now, this will get much, much worse. We apparently have video of rapes and murders ready to come out (at least according to Lindsay Grahm and Donald Rumsfeld) that will take this whole torture scandal to new lows.
As bad as this is, this is only the beginning.
We could find a lot of good we are doing in Iraq. No question about that. But by the same token, we could find a lot of good Saddam did while he was in power. Most of the good pales when compared with horrible actions by oppressors. And it appears we became oppressors on top of invaders and occupiers with this latest problem.
Now, all our enemies are using this scandal to recruit even more support. Both Osama Bin Laden and Al Sadr are using these acts to make their positions stronger. We may say that taking them out will negate that affect, but that's the same thing they said when we took Saddam and his two sons out (wrong again). Someone else will always be there to take their place.
I don't see any way out. It's time to declare "mission accomplished" for real and declare victory because Iraq is disarmed. If they ask for help, contribute with the rest of the UN to restore order. This mess is unfathomable. The damage to our country is immeasurable. We have become part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Bring our troops home and put those resources into protecting our homeland. The war is over and we lost.
We cannot pull out of Iraq until the mission is done. We are too deep at this point to leave the iraqis and let them fend for themselves. Things would be 10000x worse. Not only would we seem like cowards, but any of the respect we had in the world would be lost. Muslim extremists may hate us, but they definately respect our military might as shown in afghanistan and iraq. Pulling out now would result in an admittance of failure, which has not happened yet.
Furthermore, to put this into perspective, i dont understand how iraq is a failure. Yes, things didnt go exactly as planned, but whatever does? We have lost over 300 men and women yes...but when you compare this to Vietnam, where we lost 58,000 men...it really isnt significant enough to be deemed a "failure". There is insurgency, and that radical faction will be wiped out. 80% of iraq is pacified and thats pretty damn good.
Also, the UN DOESNT WANT TO HELP. God, how many times must this be repeated? Everyone is saying "more UN support!", "more UN support!"...they had their damn chance before we went in a year ago but did not want to help. And its obvious why since it was revealed France and Russia had extremely large economic interests in the country. Does everyone think Bush hasnt been trying to get UN support? Of course he has. But for some reason people do not think so. Why would he not want help?
in addition, the media is being irresponsible when it comes to war coverage. From things i have read over the internet, and by talking to my former global history teacher who was stationed in baghdad, the country is not as bad as the media makes it seem. Its unfair because it sways public opinion. If every negative was countered with a positive, than that would be fair, but it just doesnt happen with this country.
Finally, as previously stated the real damage would come to this country if we pulled out right now. We cannot let the insurgency win. We cannot let a force of 140,000, the most advanced in terms of weaponry and tactics, fall to the likes of a few thousand insurgents. It isnt good policy.
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Topic closed...</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Reason: Duplicate topic.<br /><br />Recommended action: Please use the search feature to locate a similar topic. If you are unable to find a similar topic, please contact the staff member who closed the topic by clicking the PM button below this post.<br /><br />Helpful links:<br /> - Simple Search<br /> - Advanced Search<br /> - Starting New Topics<br /> - Survival Guide<br /> - The Rules<br /> - Staff Directory<br /></td></tr><tr><td class='darkrow1'><div align='center'>Note: This is an automated response.</div></td></tr></table></div>
Here's the first: Iraqi Prisoner Tortures Pt II, have we lost Iraq?. Please join us there.
Topic closed...</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Reason: Duplicate topic.<br /><br />Recommended action: Please use the search feature to locate a similar topic. If you are unable to find a similar topic, please contact the staff member who closed the topic by clicking the PM button below this post.<br /><br />Helpful links:<br /> - Simple Search<br /> - Advanced Search<br /> - Starting New Topics<br /> - Survival Guide<br /> - The Rules<br /> - Staff Directory<br /></td></tr><tr><td class='darkrow1'><div align='center'>Note: This is an automated response.</div></td></tr></table></div>Here's the first: Iraqi Prisoner Tortures Pt II, have we lost Iraq?. Please join us there.
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