Full Version: Murder of Iraqis by American personnel
QUOTE
A US Army official said one soldier was convicted of murder in the US military justice system for killing a prisoner in September 2003 at a detention centre in Iraq, and another prisoner was killed at the Abu Ghraib jail near Baghdad in November 2003 by a private contractor who worked as an interrogator for the CIA.
The soldier was reduced in rank to private and thrown out of the service but did not serve any time in jail, the official said. He said the soldier shot and killed the prisoner after the Iraqi inmate had thrown stones at him. The soldier was found to have used excessive force.
The official said the CIA contractor was not in the military, so no legal action was taken because of lack of jurisdiction, but the Army referred the case to the US Justice Department for possible action.
He said a third death among the 25 being investigated was ruled a justifiable homicide: it occurred while a prisoner was attempting to escape.
Details of the inquiries came as the Pentagon investigated the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US forces at the Abu Ghraib jail. The revelations have inflamed anti-American sentiment, especially in the Arab world.
In the US inquiry, of the other 22 death investigations, 12 prisoners were found to have died either by natural or undetermined causes and a further 10 deaths were still being scrutinised. The Army did not say in which countries the 25 killings occurred but the vast majority were in Iraq.
The soldier was reduced in rank to private and thrown out of the service but did not serve any time in jail, the official said. He said the soldier shot and killed the prisoner after the Iraqi inmate had thrown stones at him. The soldier was found to have used excessive force.
The official said the CIA contractor was not in the military, so no legal action was taken because of lack of jurisdiction, but the Army referred the case to the US Justice Department for possible action.
He said a third death among the 25 being investigated was ruled a justifiable homicide: it occurred while a prisoner was attempting to escape.
Details of the inquiries came as the Pentagon investigated the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US forces at the Abu Ghraib jail. The revelations have inflamed anti-American sentiment, especially in the Arab world.
In the US inquiry, of the other 22 death investigations, 12 prisoners were found to have died either by natural or undetermined causes and a further 10 deaths were still being scrutinised. The Army did not say in which countries the 25 killings occurred but the vast majority were in Iraq.
Revealed:Americans murdered two Iraqi prisoners
This week it was revealed that 25 people in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan have died. As the above quote reveals some of those have been determined to be free of misconduct or evidence of misconduct by American forces. That leaves 10 people who have died in American hands where our military justice system has an ongoing investigation.
Worse still, two of these cases have been determined to be murder. As I search for a followup to these public comments from earlier in the week, I am left wondering what is going on with the American press. The reports are from wire services like reuters, but they are being picked up in Vietnam, South Africa, England, Scotland, and Arab news services, but they are not geting much play in America.
Worse yet, the CIA may be responsible for additional deaths.
QUOTE
Saddam Hussein's torturers, the U.S. army revealed that 25 prisoners had died in Iraq and Afghanistan in U.S. custody.
They included two Iraqis murdered by Americans, one death described as justifiable homicide, and 12 deaths by natural or undetermined causes. Ten were still being investigated.
PRISONER DEATHS
The CIA said on Wednesday it was investigating the deaths of three prisoners who were interrogated by its personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan but it did not say if these were among the 25 reported by the Army.
They included two Iraqis murdered by Americans, one death described as justifiable homicide, and 12 deaths by natural or undetermined causes. Ten were still being investigated.
PRISONER DEATHS
The CIA said on Wednesday it was investigating the deaths of three prisoners who were interrogated by its personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan but it did not say if these were among the 25 reported by the Army.
Bush condemns abuse of Iraqi prisoners
Is this getting set aside for later scandal. Will leadership later claim that evidence of murder was clearly released and then be appalled an anti-government media backlash when questions are raised about the punishment of these soldiers who were found guilty of murder.
From the first quote I posted above
QUOTE
The soldier was reduced in rank to private and thrown out of the service but did not serve any time in jail, the official said. He said the soldier shot and killed the prisoner after the Iraqi inmate had thrown stones at him. The soldier was found to have used excessive force.
The official said the CIA contractor was not in the military, so no legal action was taken because of lack of jurisdiction, but the Army referred the case to the US Justice Department for possible action.
The official said the CIA contractor was not in the military, so no legal action was taken because of lack of jurisdiction, but the Army referred the case to the US Justice Department for possible action.
Is this justice for the victims of murder? One soldier was punished by being broken to a private and being dishonorably discharged.
The other is cloaked by some legal black hole in which a CIA contractor
killed someone and the army took no legal action but referred the case to the US Justice Department.
Some of the AD community understands military justice better than I do, but the legal response to these murders seems woefully inadequate to me. And if I were an Iraqi I would be very suspicious of the US military and even more concerned about the presence of non-military contractors operating as mercenary forces for security and for interrogation purposes.
Questions for debate:
Is this too going to blow up into a storm of criticism against the US occupation? (If so, justifiably or not?)
Do these cases seem to be handled appropriately?
Nothing but scapegoats,plain and simple.The man at the top should be locked up.You know the old saying,if your wearing the suit,wear it with pride and accept all respondsibility from you on down.LOCK BUSH UP.
Do these cases seem to be handled appropriately?
Very difficult for us to know. If we had sat in on the court martial and witnessed the events at the trial, the evidence presented by the prosecution and the defense, the rulings of the judge and the deliberations of the jury panel... we'd have a better idea of exactly what transpired and why the sentence imposed was chosen.
Unfortunately, for most of us, we only find out what bits and pieces the media passes along to society on the whole. The shorter the news report or the story, the less we know and the more we have to extrapolate and fill in the blanks with our best guesswork. The cited news reports tell us only that the soldier shot the prisoner after he threw stones at him, and that it was ruled that the soldier used excessive force. They didn't convict him of murder, and they didn't clear him of wrongdoing either.
Might the soldier in question have acted with malice aforethought and shot the prisoner in cold blood when he tossed some pebbles in his direction? And the authorities didn't care and didn't want the soldier punished? In theory it is certainly possible. Of course that would require some serious effort to put on a fake court martial and rig it as a sham. It might have been easier to sweep it under the rug instead.
Since we don't know exactly what happened, I guess it ultimately comes down to our perceptions and opinions. The civilian justice system suffers from a similar problem, although with media access to courtrooms and jurors sometimes revealing their personal thoughts after trials we are able to get a better look at the specifics when we follow through and research the issue.
I am willing to give the court martial proceedings the benefit of the doubt, but I understand that plenty of people will not.
Very difficult for us to know. If we had sat in on the court martial and witnessed the events at the trial, the evidence presented by the prosecution and the defense, the rulings of the judge and the deliberations of the jury panel... we'd have a better idea of exactly what transpired and why the sentence imposed was chosen.
Unfortunately, for most of us, we only find out what bits and pieces the media passes along to society on the whole. The shorter the news report or the story, the less we know and the more we have to extrapolate and fill in the blanks with our best guesswork. The cited news reports tell us only that the soldier shot the prisoner after he threw stones at him, and that it was ruled that the soldier used excessive force. They didn't convict him of murder, and they didn't clear him of wrongdoing either.
Might the soldier in question have acted with malice aforethought and shot the prisoner in cold blood when he tossed some pebbles in his direction? And the authorities didn't care and didn't want the soldier punished? In theory it is certainly possible. Of course that would require some serious effort to put on a fake court martial and rig it as a sham. It might have been easier to sweep it under the rug instead.
Since we don't know exactly what happened, I guess it ultimately comes down to our perceptions and opinions. The civilian justice system suffers from a similar problem, although with media access to courtrooms and jurors sometimes revealing their personal thoughts after trials we are able to get a better look at the specifics when we follow through and research the issue.
I am willing to give the court martial proceedings the benefit of the doubt, but I understand that plenty of people will not.
Interesting conflation of definitions. Use a polemical definition of murder, then back it up with a) a conviction for the use of "excessive force" and another matter that still isn't closed.
The guard who was court-martialed and dishonorably discharged (which will follow him for the rest of his life) was found guilty of "excessive force." Without knowing a) the size of the stones that were being thrown at him, i.e., potentially lethal or mere pebbles? and
his recourse to non-lethal force, we don't know sitting here whether the ruling was just. Since the court martial found "excessive force", there is likewise a finding that the use of force was justified, but that the soldier used too much. That is a far cry from murder, both legally, and morally.
The attempts to paint this, repeatedly, as cold blooded murder do not fit the facts that you have presented.
This is the kicker:
In the US inquiry, of the other 22 death investigations, 12 prisoners were found to have died either by natural or undetermined causes and a further 10 deaths were still being scrutinised. The Army did not say in which countries the 25 killings occurred but the vast majority were in Iraq.
Tell me, please, in what parallel universe do natural deaths become killings?
The guard who was court-martialed and dishonorably discharged (which will follow him for the rest of his life) was found guilty of "excessive force." Without knowing a) the size of the stones that were being thrown at him, i.e., potentially lethal or mere pebbles? and
his recourse to non-lethal force, we don't know sitting here whether the ruling was just. Since the court martial found "excessive force", there is likewise a finding that the use of force was justified, but that the soldier used too much. That is a far cry from murder, both legally, and morally.The attempts to paint this, repeatedly, as cold blooded murder do not fit the facts that you have presented.
This is the kicker:
In the US inquiry, of the other 22 death investigations, 12 prisoners were found to have died either by natural or undetermined causes and a further 10 deaths were still being scrutinised. The Army did not say in which countries the 25 killings occurred but the vast majority were in Iraq.
Tell me, please, in what parallel universe do natural deaths become killings?
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