There you go again.

I am maximising their crimes? I have said about six times now I do not know if the allegations of rape are true, we will have to wait and see what turns out to be true. Given the seriousness and widespread nature of the allegations, I am not willing to dismiss them as automatically as you are.

The rest of the crimes, the abuse, the torture, the sexual asault, the murders... they are in no need of maximisation. I know some of these crimes were under investigation before the media hit the story. Now, many more are. Hopefully the truth about US actions in these countries will eventually come out. But even if it turns out to be no worse than what we already know (which is VERY unlkely as the investigations in most cases are just starting) the US military still has a lot to answer for for allowing these excesses and brutalities to go on, in multiple cases, across multiple prisons in two countries, dispite warnings from the Red Cross for months.


I am "trying to tarnish anything American blah, blah blah".

Really? Thnk you for the information on what I am trying to do. Good of you to inform me. Sarcasm aside, the pointed rhetoric about the plight of the poor US at my hands is a bit heavy handed, and quite inaccurate. It is a common (and overused) ploy on the right to assume that if I disagree with US policy or some issue of US actions, I must therefore be "trying to tarnish anything american" and so on. Makes for good speechifying, but has little to no basis in reality.

I am dealing with a specific uissue, it is you, not I who keep straying outside it.

I do not think " this is what America is". I do not think " this is what America does". I know full well there were no secret orders from the top to sexually assault and brutalise Iraqi POWs and then take idiotic incriminating photos of it.

However, you seem convinced that this was just a tiny isolated incident, signifying nothing. As has been pointed out by many, this investigation is increasing in size daily, and already encompasses 19 bases in Afghanistan and Iraq. 10 deaths are either tried or under courtmartial, and more are under investigation. (They have not been 'deemed as natural causes' as you tried to invent)

I agree with you on one thing, to try and make this out to be 'representative' of the United States in any way is wrong. (But then, thats not EVER what I have been doing) But then, to pretend this is a couple drunken frat boys and really doesnt mean anything and is just a rare isolated case, in the face of insurmountable evidence to the contrary, is just as wrong.

What baffles me about your argument is that you stand so alone. Everyone in the US government, up to Rumsfeld himself has admitted this is a problem, it is not just a couple isolated cases, and it needs a widespread and thorough investigation. You alone seem to be opposing that. I asked three times exactly what your point is in all this, what exactly you are arguing for, you still have not answered...




Ah yes... If a media outlet dares criticise the US, it must be because we are all left-wing commies. It is impossible that maybe, just maybe, some of these criticisms might be valid?

Your apparent 'monitoring' of the CBC seems highly unlikely, since your 'examples' do not actually exist. Unlike places like FoxNews, CBC does not criticise the US at all. It reports the news, it does not draw conclusions from it. The whole 'mud slinging' and the rest of your diatribe is just silly and wrong.

This segment of the debate gets us nowhere, I recommend if you really want to debate the merits of FoxNews and the lke, we move it to the Media section. Here it serves no purpose at all.

Why should I bother?

Your very words dwell on allegations that are false. Read that?

F A L S E

Understand?

Find a single shred of proof to back up your statements, find a statement from someone who has seen the photos stating that there are acts of rape, murder, and sodomy in the photos. That's right, you can't and won't find any such proof, but go ahead, state some proof to your accusations.

In another thread, the Kennedy one, I pointed out that in interview not but thirty minutes ago with Hollis who has seen the photos and flat out stated (much as the senators have) that:

"There are no photos of Americans sexually abusing Iraqis."

&

"There are no photos of Americans murdering Iraqis."

Keep going though, keep throwing out these rape allegations as if they're true....

As for CBC, read the previous statement I gave closely, I did give examples.

As for my inventing 'facts', you're doing a good job of it yourself with these rape and murder charges. But hey, wasn't that hard to verify my numbers... Yahoo with 'Iraqi prisoner deaths natural causes' came up with many hits...



http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/...e8e007bf16e.txt

Got my numbers off by a slight bit, was reciting from memory from what I saw on Lester Holt Live a few days back.

I hate to burst your bubble, but have you read the Army's initial report on this issue?

Iraqi prisoners faced numerous "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses" by United States soldiers, including sodomy and beatings, according to a US Army report quoted by the New Yorker magazine.

Maybe the Army is lying, but I can't see the purpose.

Big Story with John Gibson (today's)

Andre Hollis

Specifically was asked this question (about rape and sodomy) his response was:

"There are no pictures of Americans sexually abusing Iraqis."

As for the New Yorker article (which I read, and from which every story of sodomy originates), it claims there is photographic evidence of the allegation. Bill Nelson in the above quote has stated that he saw no acts of sodomy in the pictures (though he does say he saw many acts of brutality and humiliation committed, such as a man lieing on the floor bleeding after being attacked by a MP's dog), and Andre Hollis when asked this question responded with the statement above. And Taguba has stated that many of these charges are still allegations under investigation.

I... I am at a loss.

I am sorry, I don't know how I can be clearer.

For the sake of all, I will repeat myself AGAIN.

I have already cited several sources, CBC, MSNBC being two, that state that Senators reacted to images of homosexual rape.

You responded with a FoxNews quote from a senator saying no such images were seen.

WELL over a page ago I said given the differing reports, i DO NOT KNOW if there were images of rape, and I will wait and see what the media reports when their reports are straight. How many times have I repeated that? I will have to go back and check, at least 4.

I say again, you have been accusing me for almost a full page of all sorts of things about these rape charges, and for the same amount of space I have been repeating that I am NOT insisting that there are rape pictures, and that i do not know what the truth is yet. You cited your one source, I cited my three, I admit a contradiction, and thus have made no conclusions as of yet. PLEASE do not make me repeat myself again on this issue.


Now then, even IF there were no pictures of rape (which is quite possible, we shall wait and see) in this particular case that does not diminish the various charges of rape from many sources, as of yet unproven, so again we will have to wait and see.

Though rape charges are yet unproven, as has been stated a dozen times systematic abuse charges have been well substantiated, and are being investigated across both Iraq and Afghanistan.


Which returns us to the main issue I keep asking you about. WHAT is your point? Why do you continue to minimse crimes which all other have accepted? Why do you continue to pretend this is just a few isolated cases, when Rumsfeld himself has admitted otherwise?

What is the point of your defence in this entire thread? Apart from attacking and naming me a dozen different things, attacking Canada and our news sources, and generally being antagonistic, I am at a loss to understand what your point is. If you clarify, it might be easier for the debate to contine.

Minimize what? I minimize nothing, these men and women did some extremely violent and reprehensible acts, acts they shall pay for, yet these acts are being used to depict America and it's honorable military by those who despise our political system (or more specifically, Bush and his cabinet). The photos are part of the proof they use to justify their claims.

A few here have stated these photos depict acts of rape and sodomy. I'm contesting such charges, in particular if they are basing them off these photos, when all of the senators so far I've seen interviewed (as well as an Undersecretary of Defense) have denied these photos had any such revelations in them. Should I just agree with whatever you say despite words from just about every senator saying otherwise?

I name specific people who I saw say what they have said, the sources you used use ambigious goverment sources that hold no such specificity. Hard for me to to believe what you say according to your articles when it is contrary to the very words of the senators that have viewed the photos....

As for Canada and it's media, as I said, watch CBC occasionally and even read a few of your newspapers (such as the Globe and Mail and the Vancouver Sun, not often mind you, maybe once a month or so), the views in some of those papers that are expressed, well, let's just say they're abit caustic to anything American.

keric,

You keep referring to the photos. My comments are about an OFFICIAL ARMY REPORT. I have not seen the pictures. It sounds as if you have so I won't debate you over the pictures themselves. You asked for a shred of evidence that there was sodomy involved. The OFFICIAL US ARMY REPORT, claims there was. Will you not believe it unless someone took a picture of the event and sent it to the Wash. Post? If that is the case, then I am wasting my time.

And for your information, here is the report. You might want to stop watching the news and read it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/



Here is a snippet of that report:

6. (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

8. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):

g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

I appreciate that you have a hard time believing that this took place. I do to. You asked for one shred of proof. Do you believe the Army or don't you?

You should read the New Yorker article.

I did. It's available over the internet if you have the wish to read it.

It states (in commentary from the author) there is photographic proof taken of these acts, photographs shown on the 60 Minutes special, the same photos the Senate is going over.

Yet, the senators and Hollis who have viewed the photos used for all the allegations in the Army report contradict this statement from the New Yorker.

Keric, does it really matter if the New Yorker got it wrong?

The point is moot, Government Mule has presented an official army report stating that acts of rape and sodomy did in fact take place. The fact that there were no pictures of those abuses is irrelevant. The army certainly wouldn't overstate charges, there would be no reason to do that.

If you want to keep insisting that rape did not take place, I suggest you present a counter argument to the source Government Mule posted instead of bringing up a mistake by The New Yorker which is irrelevant. If you are so concerned about the accuracy of this article you might be better served writing the editor instead.

Evil terrorists don't claim to be exporting freedom and democracy to the Middle East. That is why it is such a newsworthy story when the US is exposed as having used torture to "soften up" detainees for interrogation. To my mind, the prisoner abuse story is justifiably the biggest news story of the moment. It is the disjunction between the words and deeds of the United States which does the most to fuel this story, not the intrinsic horror of the crimes under discussion.

Wow. Torture...Intrinsic Horror...what I saw was some naked guys in a pile, but maybe I'm desensitized from watching horror movies as a teenager.

Yes, it is a big news story when America screws up. Yes, we are a beacon to the world. America bashing is becoming the national sport of a few too many countries around the world for my taste, so the last thing we need is our own domestic media working overtime on this task. Sen Inhofe's remarks are right on to those of us that pay attention to the media's liberal bias and blame-America rhetoric. More outraged at the outrage, he was, and so am I. It's still on the front page AS I PREDICTED when the beheading story is GONE, because terrorists beheading jews is not news, but 'softening up' prisoners is (especially with photos!)

The media ignores evil, pretends there is no such thing as right and wrong and prefers sensationalism?

I am always uncomfortable when somebody says with a straight face "We are a beacon to the world". This is, I guess, a separate discussion, but what would make one say so? In my opinion it shows arrogance and disrespect to other nations. And wouldn't such attitude of Americans be partially responsible for things Americans are being accused of?
Terrorists beheading Jews is big news, but it's not (unfortunately) a sensational news because noone expects anything better from terrorists. How far "out there" those people are that even Hezballah and Hamas denounced the killing of Mr. Berg!
I already posted previously that many more things have been done other than "naked guys in a pile" so I don't want to post it again - I guess we all know what was done.

screencaps of major news sites that are back on abuse story already

Beacon - I'm not going to look it up, but isn't it a light towards which many people look and indeed make their destination? Our culture influences people around the world and many from other countries move here - really. Even those that hate the US want to move here and drive cabs. It's stereotypical, but true.

Hezbollah and Hamas condemned this act (in English only I bet) and then went back to killing Jews. Who cares what they think. Try reading the papers in Egypt. These maniacs have been attacking us for years. There is no point in trying to blame it on any one of our acts. They hate the West.

Al-Wafd, an Egyptian opposition paper, said the abuse of prisoners drove the killers to act.
"The brutal violations practiced by the American and British occupying forces against Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison led to retaliating responses against Americans in Iraq," it said. "The pictures of rape and torture ... forced Abu Musab al-Zarqawi´s group to execute an American citizen by the sword." (Copyright 2004 Associated Press. 05/13/04)

People go where the money is. By the way, Germany takes far more immigrants than USA if measured as a percentage of total population, so I guess they deserve the title of "Nation of Immigrants" now. People don't move to USA specifically. They move to France (sub-saharian Africa in particular), Canada, Germany (former Soviet Union), Great Britain, Australia, etc. Believe it or not, Russia has a relatively high immigration rate from countries like China and Mongolia.

In other words, people are moving to countries where the living standards are higher comparing to the living standards in the country they are in, that's it. Does it make all these countries "Beacons"? I guess so. However, I never heard Germans or French saying "We are a beacon to the world".
There are quite a few Russian Jews who, unfortunately, returned back to Russia from Israel when things went sour down there. That just shows you that many people emigrate for purely economic reasons. It's not our culture that drives people to emigrate here (on contrary, many nations complain about the negative influence of American culture on their own), but money.

T0 get us back on topic:

Do you agree with the statements that Jeff Inhofe made?

Nope, and he is a scuzzbag for making the statements. I think he needs to have this treatment done to him, to put it into "perspective".

Are you more disgusted by the outrage over the photos or by the photos themselves?

I think one huge thing that is being missed by the conservatives on this one 70-90% of those detained are innocent

If it was OBL or someone they were torturing for valuable information that may save lives, personally, I am all for it- torture away! But random roundups of thousands of fighting age men to torture makes no sense at all- except of course, to the GW regime and of course, his supporters, who want to "put it into perspective".

If this controversy does go all the way to the top, do attitudes such as Jeff Inhofe's as a member of Congress instigate this type of action?

Absolutely- it is precisely this attitude by the right that has set the stage for this to happen- from Ann Coultier "putting them to the sword and converting them to Christianity" to Rush "letting off some steam" to Hannity "hazing"- minimizing the fact that it is torture, not abuse that the GW regime has allowed to happen under it's watch.

Anyone that believes it is not torture- send your kid for some of this good-natured fun filled "hazing".

It's Jim Inhoffe, actually, though those of us in his home state are known to refer to him a Jack.
The point here is that it doesn't matter what terrorists have done: military intelligence indicates that as many as 90% of detainees have absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. The words of Inhoffe and his mental midget counterpart in the Democratic party Joe Lieberman serve to offensively link all arabs with the actions of a few, and go so far as to excuse and minimise acts of rape and torture.
This dehumanizing and bigoted attitude can not be countenanced in representatives of the United States.

How did a person like him ever get elected in the first place?

I am at a loss for words to describe having a Senator who is making votes on important issues,and we are depending on him for leadership.

The only thing that is logical is that he just came out of the closet(S & M that is).

This might surprise a few, but, after a week or so of thinking about this, my answer is no.

No, I am not disgusted by the outrage over the photo's, yet, until the facts are all known I can't say for sure that they even outrage me.


70 to 90% of all detainee's were innocent?

Perhaps? Were those pictured part of the 10 to 30% that were not?

A few might have been terrorists. A few might have placed bombs that killed women while they shopped, or children while they played. They may have done this to gain power through the fear that a Mother has for the Safety of her child. Is there a greater crime then this?

This might have been the case, and if so, then I am not outraged in the least.

This might not have been the case, then, yes I am, and the cowards that did these acts should face a court and the court should show no mercy.

Red

I don't know redliner, Inhofe's comments and those of others can be used to basically get people off the hook. These soldiers who carried out those abuses should not be defended. What the opposition does is completely a separate issue from this. Are we a nation of laws, or just arbitrary detention and reckless abuse that is excused? Since when is that justifiable? It might be just be due to politics that some of these soldiers get some sympathy and receive a slap on the wrist, if that.

I fail to see this "perspective" the GW at all cost crowd wants me to see- we are training and allowing torture- period- don't try to candy coat it- if your children were a victim of it- you certainly would call it torture- if it were your boy being raped- you would call it torture. Just because we don't lop off ears, we just use a more sophisticated version of torture- we bend the rules a bit to fit our own sensibilities- which is playing right into the torture-ers hands - we have immoral, cowardly scumbags like this Inhoffe, Limbaugh, Hannity etc- that would be broken in 20 seconds by the torture- they are not exactly tough guys- but like all armchair warriors- they want to make us have a "perspective" to our own wrong doing- which is precisely the wrong perspective!

I agree that Limbaugh is saying some pretty outrageous things about the torture. I think the conservative hosts are under a great deal of stress right now with Bushs numbers tanking... not that im excusing it.

I love your response, I'm sure it hasn't been an easy couple of weeks for them. As a question of fairness-can anyone find and post his comments?

Since you made this a personal perspective (please bear with me admins as this may take the thread off subject) then I would offer this.

I am informed that a plot to kidnap my Son, a Uniformed United States Army Reservist, was uncovered. The plot was gleaned from a captured terrorist after what some would call torture. The plot was to be executed within hours of the captive talking so the timing was a key element.

Knowing what I know that terrorists are capable of, do you really think I would have had a problem with this? Do you think I would call for a formal investigation into why my Sons life was saved? I think not.

Lets face it, terrorists do not live by the same rules that our Military, as a whole does. While our Military attempts to minimize civilian casualties, these groups TRY TO cause civilian casualties.