Well not surprising, the GOP leaders oppose to the release of additional photos out of Abu Ghraib.

I for one am all for full disclosure, and a "transparent" investigation that Bush eluded to earlier this week, however, I have to agree with the GOP on this one.

We all know that American's did some awful things to the prisoners in Iraq. They absolutely humiliated those human beings, and the US is in the process of determining who did what and punishing those involved.

I don't need to see any more photos at this time. I do not need for my blood to boil any more over this issue. I am as thoroughly disgusted as I can possibly be over the actions of some of our soldiers. (Remember, it is their actions that outrage us, not the photos themselves.)

I hope to have the chance to see the remaining photos at some future date, but with the climate being what it is today, I agree that the photos should be held from the public for now.

Am I helping protect our government from further embarrassment? God I hope not, but I feel releaseing them now would do more harm then good.

Question for debate:
Should the remainder of the photos be released to the public anytime soon?

Should the remainder of the photos be released to the public anytime soon?


they sould, but they won't be. the first photos weren't even meant to be released initially from what I can tell. someone got ahold of them and put them on the net. the government very well couldn't ignore them once they were online. (and I do believe they would have)

so, in reality all it will take is one person getting their hands on these photos and posting them. it should be painfully obvious by now our govenment lies to us and (tries to) cover up things like this. it is usually individuals that have shone light on government secrets (daniel ellsberg ring a bell?)

Yes, the photos should be made public and the media shouldn't think twice about it. In not releasing new images, we are saying that we are more open than Saddam Hussein's government, but not too open or too different. In holding back information, we are also proving that we really aren't that much of a democracy as we like to brag that we are. Only a third world banana-republci would fail a test of honesty. Featured by fair.org, Norman Solomon has spoken about the rise of a counter movement that will go follow. It's the media's job to give us information that we don't like, and if it makes politicains like Inhofe and others uncomfortable, they need to just deal with it and focus on how to really remedy the problem.

Question for debate:
Should the remainder of the photos be released to the public anytime soon?

Originally I thought that it would be better to be open and have full disclosure. Then Amlord made this argument: American beheaded at the hands of terrorists

and I changed my opinion. At this point these soldiers are defendants. They should have the same protections as any other defendant. I, shamefully admit, that to some degree because of these photo's I prejudged their actions without the full story. I bet I am not the only one to do that. Let them be afforded the right to a fair trial. I do, though, feel that the trial needs to be transparent and once completed the photo's should be released.

Excellent point. Unfortunately, the photos will most likely be released to the public. But at what purpose? Why? If you choose any other reason then to hurt the presidency of Bish than you are wrong. Releasing all the photos makes no sense because we already know what has been going on at the prison and there truly is no need for more photos to be released. All more photos would do is show the irresponsibility of the media towards affecting the perception of the American public.

Do I need to see more pics about this? Do I need to see a video of a rape or two and some other despicable acts by our citizen soldiers? No.

Should the pics/videos be released even if I don't need to see them?

Only if that's what it will take to get Congress, this Administration, and the Pentagon to change the dynamics of how we're engaging in Iraq. This wasn't one or two miscreants who misbehaved. This was an epidemic of poor or non-existent leadership. So far, I don't see any real changes on the horizon. If that doesn't change in 30 days, I'd say release the pics/videos and use it to pressure the politicians to actually DO something constructive to change things.

The Arab view: We are occupiers, we are oppressors.

We need to change that. Maybe being embarrassed a whole lot will do that. Maybe it won't. Sweeping it under the rug changes nothing at all.

yes, the photos should be released and here's why -

i read this article:

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wo...omepage-big-pix

today about a soldier who said: "I was instructed by persons in higher rank to 'stand there, hold this leash, look at the camera,' and they took picture for PsyOps (Psychological Operations). I didn't really, I mean, want to be in any pictures," she said. She also said she thought "it was kind of weird."

i don't know about you, but i had never heard of PSYOPS before, so i looked it up on the internet. here's a summary of what "Psychological Operations" is all about:

"If asked to define Psychological Operations (PSYOPS) most people think they can draw upon some military examples. PSYOPS can operate between a national level down to the personal level. Although thought of as primarily a military tactic PSYOPS is used by government and non-military originators as well. This overview will describe the objectives of PSYOPS and how (mostly) military and non-military users have used conventional and unconventional tactics or techniques to reduce the opponent's will to resist or fight. Poorly planned and/or executed PSYOPS can be shown to actually bounce back upon the originator with disastrous effects."

if you really believe that this level of abuse was the doing of six or seven rogue soldiers, including the taking of over 1,800 photos and some video, read more about PSYOPS here:

http://allpsych.com/journal/psyops.html

and here:

http://www.iwar.org.uk/psyops/

I would say that the photos should be released, except I think that, given the severity of the current anti-American sentiment in the Arab world, the last thing they need is more ammunition. I realize that many of them don't need any ammunition at all to act out on their hatred, but why give them more than they need?

I think the photos that are already being circulated adequately inform the public as to the abuses metted out by American soldiers against Iraqi prisoners. The right to be informed as to all the details, as of right now, is severely outweighed by the need to protect Americans (and others fighting this senseless war) in Iraq and in Arab nations everywhere from even more senseless, vengeful attacks.

When making any decision, you need to weight the pros against the cons.

Pros of release:

Transparency on this issue.
We preserve our "good guy" image with our honesty and self-assessment.
The US distances itself from an image of "being like Saddam"

Cons against the release:
Further outrage from the Arab world.
Further outrage from the Press
Further outrage from those who are already outraged.
Extremists use the photos as a recruiting tool.
Extremists attempt to "justify" their atrocities using the photos.
The US seems to be "more like Saddam"
This is evidence to be used in criminal prosecutions. The civil rights of the defendants need to be considered.
The victims here are further humiliated by having their pictures splattered across the airwaves and internet. It may seem harsh, but photos behind closed doors rarely embarrass anyone: it is when those photos are exposed that the victims are further humiliated.

For me, the Cons far outweigh the Pros, especially considering that those who view the US as the bad guys here will not change their minds based on the release of some photos.

I am not for the photos being released. I really dont see any need for them to be released. It isnt as if its a coverup. Everyone on earth knows they exist. Only harm will come of this. I understand the fear of them being released on their own and resulting in backlash but that backlash will come if they are released just the same. Knowing that 9/11 happened and seeing the images on TV are two seperate things that bring about two seperate emotions. Out of moral imparitive and for taste these pictures should not be released. Although I think the Berg MURDER has nothing to do with the photos I am not for even opening up that avenue of excuse again. I see no reason to release them. If they come out anyway so be it but for the sake of decency it isnt the governments job to release them. We all know what happened and seeing more pictures isnt going to help anything.

DaffyGirl posted this quotation in another thread:


I'm looking at the part that says, "Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that."

If the investigation can go on and nothing is left hidden from the investigators, then not publishing additional photos/videotapes would be the better course of action. But how can we be sure that all of the evidence is examined in order to come to a valid conclusion? Do we "take it on faith" like so many other things regarding this war?

Personally, I could happily live the rest of my life not seeing any more of those Iraqi prison photographs. They sicken me.

I dont think we need to see more photos. The probem is with the internet age I'm sure one way or another we are going to see more.

The government can cap the main media but somebody out there has more and once the heat dies a bit will be all too willing to sell or post it.

On one hand I do not see the need for the release of further pictures. As has been pointed out, there is not precident here to release crime scene photos to the press, and furthermore though the soldiers guilty should be locked away for a very long time, they still have a right to a fair and impartial trial. Desire to see the photos is mostly disturbing voyeurism.

HOWEVER, in right wing magasines and even a couple times on this board, you will come across people who STILL stand up and say things like "The photos are taken out of context" and "the treatment is really not that bad"... If for no other reason then to silence those fanatics who are willing to ignore reality in order to blindly support their president, perhaps there is an argument for further release of information.

My suggestion: A neutral party should write a quick statement on what is contained in each photo. That way the public can understand the extent of the crimes without compromising the defence teams or identifying the soldiers therein.

The answer is YES and the sooner the better.

While I understand the arguments against releasing the photographs, the fact is one way or another, some or all of them will leak out into the press or the web.

You can't unring the bell. Hiding the rest of these repulsive pictures doesn't mean they don't exist. We just can't handle viewing them.

The people who killed Nick Berg would have killed him regardless of the Abu Ghraib pictures. The idea that terrorists that already hate America will hate them more because of more photographs coming out doesn't convince me that is enough of a reason to withhold their release.

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, said he thought "some people are overreacting."

"The people who are against the war are using this to their political ends," he said.


The fact of the matter is the GOP leaders like Tom DeLay who don't want any more pictures released are concerned that it will increase public opposition to the war. In an election year everything has a political impact.

Rather than being nicked to death by a slow torture of a thousand cuts, it's time to come clean and level with the American people that mistakes were made and all of those involved in these crimes will be found and prosecuted. And not just the seven or eight grunts that are taking the brunt of the blame now.

DeLay and Senator Imhofe and others like them would like to throw a few soldiers to the wolves and close this sorry, sordid chapter so they can get back to cutting more taxes for the wealthy. Sorry, but whitewashing this black mark isn't a option.

I don't think there is a need for the release of any further pictures, and it's not just the the Republicans in Congress who agree with me. According to The New York Post, Senator Chuck Schumer also supports keeping them private. From the article.....



I really don't see the need for any further release. To what ends? We know abuses occured there, it's under investigation by the Defense Department and both houses of Congress. When those investigations are complete and justice is served, the world will have the answers about what really went wrong there. Simply showing more pictures of the abuse isn't going to answer one single question about what we need to find out.

I think this is an excellent list of pros and cons, and I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with Amlord completely on this issue

I just don't really see what value releasing more photos would have. I think that everyone is now aware of the issue and provided it gets addressed and those responsible are punished, there is no need.

I am seriously starting to lean towards releasing the photos.

Already across this very board there are an increasing number of people making comments like:
"They were not treated so badly..."
"Its not real torture"
"Its just a bunch of guys in a pile"
"Oh No, forced to masterbate!"

People are already starting to minimise and dismiss the abuses as if they were no big deal, apparenmtly to some unless a person is broken on the wheel a la 1400s, then its not 'real torture'.

I am afraid that a combination of spin and refusal of elements of the right to see evil about their administration will lead to people thinking of this as just a few excesses by a few people, but not really torture or anything to get worked up about...

The evidence is already gathering just from posts to AD.

I am leaning towards releasing them as well. I like your idea of having an unbiased third party examine the photos and document their contents. I know that this is court evidence, and there are legal issues. The Geneva Conventions also prohibit submitting detainees to public curiousity. However, numerous photos have already been released. I say make these photos public, so we can all see them. Black out the faces and body parts.

I've withheld opinions and observations until this came up from binko. Here is possibly the most damning thing: What if this stuff was PsyOps and therefore policy dictated from above?

I'm continuing to withhold opinion on this whole thing. Others have expressed exactly what I feel about it, and it isn't a good feeling.

One observation I can make: People are confused as to whether this is war, occupation, nation-building, terrorism containment or what. I think that confusion goes into the present administration as well and filters down to the rank/file who carry out policy.

As far as releasing more photos, I don't care one way or another. I'll likely not seek any more exposure to disgusting images. Not sure if release will help or hinder the GIs getting the shafts from their leaders (maybe). What I want to know is the "why" behind the actions. Maybe it is just the bad human behavior that tends to come out in, um, war I guess, but I'm also highly suspicious of the leadership involved.

For good reasons, too.

I think much confusion has been created by England's claim that she was directed to participate in the photographs for psychological operations.

Despite its potentially ominous sounding name, Psychological Operations does not involve breaking down prisoners in detention centers and getting them to talk. Psychological Operations are carried out by PsyOps units who produce audiovisual and printed material targetted towards influencing the opinions and attitudes of civilian populations and groups en masse. PysOps units have their own equipment and media broadcast capabilities but they will use foreign printing presses and broadcast from surrogate stations in the theater of operations. Essentially, we're talking about propaganda here, delivered to the civilian population in order to support the overall military mission. PysOps units are also involved in other activities, such as printing up leaflets to be aerially dropped on enemy troops and insurgents calling on them to surrender and cease resistance. When you consider the power of getting an enemy soldier to surrender willingly rather than by using lethal force, you can see the value in PysOps and why it is used.

My younger brother spent in much of his time in the first gulf war driving around Kuwait City in an Army Humvee after Coalition Forces liberated it. The Humvee was rigged with loudspeakers and a tape machine, announcing to Kuwaitis where they could go to find food, supplies, and assistance, while at the same time calling on third party arab nationals who had collaborated with the Iraqis to give themselves up.

In PFC England's situation, three scenarios that come to mind are 1) she completely made up the statement about being told she should pose in the photos to support PsyOps, 2) she really was told to do this and it was directed from above, or 3) she really was told to do this and believed it, but it went no higher than the junior sergeants who are implicated in the same crimes, who told her it was for PsyOps for their own agenda. Maybe they planned to show the photos to other prisoners to help intimidate and freighten them, or maybe they wanted the photos for their own amusement and found PFC England remarkably gullible (England may have known very little about Army PsyOps units and the role they play).

I don't want to put a lot of credence into #1 until England has had a chance to have a fair trial and defend herself. I find #2 unlikely because I can't see how real Army PsyOps units would have made use of these obscene and rediculous photographs. How would it support the mission of favorably influencing the opinions and perceptions of the Iraqi civilian population? I personally find #3 to be the most plausible scenario, although again I think we must wait until the trials run their course and all the defendants have been allowed to have their day in court.

The three scenarios I have come up with are not necessarily all-inclusive but its all I can think of for now. If anyone else has different theories about the PysOps claims not covered by #1, #2, or #3, feel free to speak your mind.

Should the remainder of the photos be released to the public anytime soon?

I think all of the photos should be released eventually, in due course, after the trials are finished and the sentences imposed.

I say release the photos.

If I could trust two words out of anybody in our government, I would say that releasing the images is not needed. But all we hear is what they want us to hear. And I have a problem with that.

When our elected officials are honest and trustworthy, I'll take their word for it. Until then, show us because statistically speaking, they're lying.

I would have to agree with Nighttimer and DaytonRocker on releasing all the materials now not that I am interested in seeing them, but like others have said its better to get them out now, rather then when things our possibly going our way the rest come out and start the uproar again at a future date.

As to fair trials the court-martials are not like our regular court proceedings. As well as I have already heard from several of the lawyers defending these defendants on tv saying they were ordered to do these outrageous acts.

Which if they were ordered the people that ordered them, the people that were negligent on leadership, and any other participants that sat on the sidelines by condoning these actions all should be dealt with within court-martial proceedings and if contractors were also involved within our regular court system.

The sad thing is no matter what, the participants that are in the pictures should have known better if they were ordered to do these actions, that following an illegal order is not an excuse and they should not have done it.

While Court Martials are not like civilian trials, these people will some day be back in society. Regardless of how they are found, they are entitled to the same protections(and regardless of their acts)that you and I are entitled to.

All this in my opinion, has more to do with the press today. I realize that others don't see it like I do, but we have gotten in the last 10-15 years more in to the trial by public opinion. I don't like it. Period. You are innocent until proven guilty in this country. Though that does seem to be a myth today.

There is no value to releasing more photos. Might keep more people angry, is that what we want? Not me, lets finish the job and come home.

I think you're on to something here Daytona. If we allow them to get away with this, who is to say when it will stop and what next won't theycover up? Will they lie about combat deaths next? We will be revisiting some governmental honesty issues which is the reason why people lost faith in the government to solve the situation in Vietnam.

several people in this thread have argued that the photos shouldn't be released due to them being evidence. for example:

amlord said:
and

and dreampiper said:

the problem with comparing it to a murder in chicago is that in that case the defendant would be subject to a trial by a jury of his/her peers. in the case of the soldiers at abu ghraib they will be face a court martial. I have the feeling that the CM panel (whatever the three judging officers are called) have seen these photos or they will. so they cannot really be effected by them the way a jury could.



while the soldiers may not have been ultimatly responsible for these crimes and simply were following orders, that is still no excuse, as was determined at nuremburg.



there is an old saying that is very pertinent to this whole situation and all the outrage about the torture: "if you're not angry, your not paying attention" this is not something that should be swept under the rug. there NEEDS to be more outrage that this is what america is resorting to. there is now evidence coming out that bush was aware of it the whole time (Memo to Bush may have led to torture - 'Bush, Rumsfeld signed memo for Iraq abuse - Abuse Scandal Focuses on Bush Foundation) it seems some people would rather not have their rosey view of america shattered by the reality of what this country and government have become.

another argument being used against the release of the photos is that it humiliates the Iraqi's futher. HOW?? are they going to walk down the street and have someone say "HEY! I recognize the butt!" they're wearing hoods in the photos so they are not likely to be recognized in the street. nice spin though by trying to make it sound like concern for the prisoners.

I absolutly think these photos SHOULD and MUST be made public. by not doing so, the media becomes complicit in the whole thing. secrecy is the keystone to all tyranny (robert heinlein)

Visual images are VERY powerful. The right knows this very well.

That is why we don't show the horrible deaths and injuries of Iraqi civilians -- it might awaken too many consciences and those people might withdraw support for neo-con policies.

This is why the towers falling on 9/11 have caused so many people to lash out at the wrong people. The image of those towers crumbling is one we will never forget -- unfortunately it has only taken the idea that they were middle easterners to justify attack on Iraq by many on this country.

This is the reason why the military and government attempt to limit the press's ability to cover the war -- embedding was a brilliant PR scam calculated to make sure viewers saw only the things the government wanted you to see.

That is why PR firms are hired to sell us on war. This is why the media gave us Hollywood moments about the war.

There are many people that live in a fantasy world -- believing the USA to be chosen by God and incapable of doing anything wrong. This is an illness -- it's as bad as denying a loved one has a substance abuse problem. Nothing gets solved when problems are denied and swept under the rug.

Therefore, in answer to the question:



The photos should be released. We cannot correct the evils of our government if a portion of the population is not confronted with the reality of those evils.

My point is, while yes I wouldn't be on the jury, the facts are not out yet. There is no reason for me to be further enraged till they have a trial. I don't want the pictures hidden from the public when their trials are over. Just for now I see no reason till they have been judged.

Yikes, bucking the system again.

Although I believe in transparency, I see no reason for more public photographic evidence. Yes, there are people saying that 'nothing really happened', and that nude pictures are not really torture, that there were 'no rapes'. Thats just those in denial. Most people can already surmise what went on by what has already been shown publicly. Congress knows, and thats important enough.

Reality is that we are in a vicious war scenario, a place that we probably shouldnt be in, a bungled and mismanaged state of affairs where the US is between a rock and a hard place right now. This is not rhetoric it's fact.

If anyone releases more devastating photos Iraq could burn to the ground in outrage. Thats really not in anyones interest.

I do not care about protecting the people who did this, I do care that Iraq be freed from our meddling, in order to come to peace, security and stabiity. Although I have many reservations that the US really desires a 'free Iraq', (we did not spend billions for them to be 'truly' free, as 'generous' as some think we are), I do know that we best not throw fuel on the fire if we should like to see any positive outcome, or not see a whole lot more dead people on both sides. 'They' being the most killed.

The situation is bad enough as is. 'We' need no further evidence publicized at this time.

While I agree with you partly Artemise about not wanting to outrage anymore people now I believe the sooner all of it comes out, the work oh healing can be done. Instead of us trying to start the healing process now and at some future date when things are going better releasing the reset of the photos only to restart the outrage as if it was something new.

We have already been confronted with the evils. There is absolutely no purpose to release the rest of the photos. We know what happened and what went on. Honestly, will the release of more photots make people happy? We know the injustices and the problems and to have the new photos released will do only harm and no good.