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nebraska29
The National Conference of State Legislatures has issued a brief statement regarding unfunded mandates. According to them:

QUOTE
Washington lawmakers have enacted or are considering nearly 50 pieces of legislation during the 108th Congress that would leave states holding the bag.  Medicare prescription drugs, special education, homeland security, enforcement of federal immigration laws will all compound the states’ budget woes.

Over the past four fiscal years, states have been forced to deplete reserve accounts, reduce or eliminate programs and increase fees and taxes in order to close a cumulative budget gap of more than $200 billion.  Despite an improving economy, a recent NCSL report noted states still must close a $720 million collective budget gap for fiscal year 2004 and a $36 billion gap in fiscal year 2005.



Questions for debate:

1.)What should be done about unfunded federal mandates?

2.)How could the states "play hardball" and possibly get their way on this issue?

3.)Are unfunded mandates just a problem at the state level because state level politicians are too afraid to ask the citizens to fund these mandates?


4.)What obligation does the federal government owe the states when it comes to mandates?
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Stephenie
1) The federal government should not impose unfunded mandates on state and local agencies. The federal legislature is just trying to have their laws enforced using other governments' budgets. Unfunded mandates will wreck havoc in state and local governments' budgets, especially if that government has a law (voted by the people) requiring a balanced budget.

2)Many states (and local/regional governments) have several options. One is to sue the federal government over the mandates; the several of the state/local governments may unite in the lawsuit. Second, the state/local government will just not enforce the unfunded mandate. The various agencies/departments has enforcement discretion.

3) State/local politicians don't want to be the "villian" because they raised taxes to pay for these mandates. Additionally, these mandates are a problem to states/local governments because the federal government will threaten to withhold federal money from funded mandates and grants (i.e. highway repair funds) if the state/local governments don't enforce the unfunded mandates. The money involves millions of dollars per year.

4) The federal government shouldn't create any unfunded mandates. If they can't pay for the mandate, then they shouldn't create the mandate. The federal government should be required to operate within a balance budget, as many state and local agencies do. Also, the federal government shouldn't have underfunded mandates, such as the No Child Left Behind Act (schools and districts don't have enough funding to address the learning problems common to that school/district).
Ted
[quote=nebraska29,May 12 2004, 10:03 PM]

[/QUOTE]

Questions for debate:

1.)What should be done about unfunded federal mandates?

2.)How could the states "play hardball" and possibly get their way on this issue?

3.)Are unfunded mandates just a problem at the state level because state level politicians are too afraid to ask the citizens to fund these mandates?


4.)What obligation does the federal government owe the states when it comes to mandates? [/quote]
I have never been a big fan of unfunded mandates but I see no end in sight. What can the states do? I think any remedies would have to be enacted at the Federal level. - Good luck with that!

I find it interesting that liberals are now taking up what was a conservative cause in this issue. I can see why from the programs you mention such as Homeland Security and enforcement of Federal Immigration laws. I am in favor of both. And I believe that Congress has actually voted to fund much of the cost of the States Homeland security efforts. We are IMO long overdue on the enforcement of immigration laws. The fact that we have 13,000,000 illegal aliens in this country, and more entering every day, speaks for itself.

As far as what does the government owe the states for these mandates? Well it sure would be nice if the Feds provided some money to get the jobs done but they have never done this in the past – for states OR the business community that has been saddled with billions in costs for these mandates.
nebraska29
QUOTE(Stephenie @ May 14 2004, 12:42 AM)

2)Many states (and local/regional governments) have several options.  One is to sue the federal government over the mandates; the several of the state/local governments may unite in the lawsuit.  Second, the state/local government will just not enforce the unfunded mandate.  The various agencies/departments has enforcement discretion. 

3)  State/local politicians don't want to be the "villian" because they raised taxes to pay for these mandates.  Additionally, these mandates are a problem  to states/local governments because the federal government will threaten to withhold federal money from funded mandates and grants (i.e. highway repair funds) if the state/local governments don't enforce the unfunded mandates.  The money involves millions of dollars per year.

I like your suggestions under question #2. mrsparkle.gif A lawsuit would be a very interesting way to tackle this issue. ph34r.gif Just get a few state's attorney generals together and viola!, w00t.gif the feds may do some rethinking, especially when the senators and representatives catch hell from their constituents at home. Where to start? How about a lawsuit over no child left behind? The folks in Minnesota might want to pursue that route, since no child left behind will cost the state and local districts mad.gif $39 million a year to implement. Of course, the state of Utah tried that, and the feds threatened to with hold something to the tune of $106 million according to a Washington Post article. ermm.gif As a whole, no child left behind is going to leave the states with picking up the $9.4 billion tab that the feds didn't provide funding for. ASounsd to me as if it should be the one unfunded mandate that the states should start with.
Ted
[quote=nebraska29,May 21 2004, 02:10 PM] [QUOTE=Stephenie,May 14 2004, 12:42 AM]

2 Where to start? How about a lawsuit over no child left behind? The folks in Minnesota might want to pursue that route, since no child left behind will cost the state and local districts mad.gif $39 million a year to implement. Of course, the state of Utah tried that, and the feds threatened to with hold something to the tune of $106 million according to a Washington Post article. ermm.gif As a whole, no child left behind is going to leave the states with picking up the $9.4 billion tab that the feds didn't provide funding for. ASounsd to me as if it should be the one unfunded mandate that the states should start with. [/quote]
I find it interesting that you pick on “no child left behind”. You would think that one would be in favor of improving out abysmal education system – especially for the poor. Do you think it’s cheaper to continue to pump out people who are not able to qualify for the jobs in this country. Do you have any idea how many billions a year that costs us?

Are you against the “Americans with disabilities Act”? This has cost business, states and cities many billions of $. How about OSHA?

Why do you feel that all American children don’t deserve a decent education?
nebraska29
You would think that one would be in favor of improving out abysmal education system – especially for the poor. Do you think it’s cheaper to continue to pump out people who are not able to qualify for the jobs in this country. Do you have any idea how many billions a year that costs us?

My point wasn't whether or not NCLB is a good or bad bill. My point had to do with the fact that it is an unfunded mandate that according to the non-partisan Council of State Legislatures-costs them thousands of dollars a year. If you take issue as to whether or not it constitutes an unfunded mandate, feel free to add to that thread of discussion.


I find it interesting that you pick on “no child left behind”.
Are you against the “Americans with disabilities Act”? This has cost business, states and cities many billions of $. How about OSHA?


I presume that you feel that I favor some unfunded mandates over others? Pretty good question to ask me really-I've never really thought it that way. Upon further reflection of it, I would agree in principle that ADA legislation should be funded 110%. I'm not so sure about OSHA-that has more to do with fines if a business can't follow the rules. I don't see how the feds should fund employers for not overworking their employees, having them work in unsafe conditions, or not exposing them to harmful chemicals. That kind of stuff seems more common sense to me. While it might be an expense to a given business, I'm sure there is some kind of tax-shell game that can make it disappear as an expense.


Why do you feel that all American children don’t deserve a decent education?


Once again, it's a question of a giant bill that is put upon the states. Check out the site of the non-partisan National Conference of State Legislatures and see what democratic and republican legislators think of NCLB. While I'm a partisan supporter of Kerry, there are plenthy of people on both sides of the political aisle that don't like what this bill does to the states.
Ted
As I said in the beginning I am not in favor of unfunded mandates in general but I do not consider the “no child left behind” to be in that category. Remember what states lose if they do what they have done for decades, which is provide a mediocre education to most and a very poor education to many, is l the Federal funding they were getting to do the job RIGHT. After all, all of us pay in one way or another for poorly educated children.


I feel defense (homeland security) is in a similar category. If states do not spend what is required to protect their citizens then should they expect federal aid when/if they are attacked. I would rather have the states do what is necessary than have some federal agency try to decide how to do the job at the state level.
crashfourit
States complain about unfunded mandates partially because they can't appoint senators any more. (if you think the states government is represented by the senators--think again it is virtual representation).
I say let them appoint the senators, then they won't have much to complain about. mad.gif
Oh, here is an amendment that would help.
-> http://articlev.com/repeal_the_17th_amendment.htm
This will replace the 17th amendment and more effectively connect the states to the federal process. Then the state governments, as I said above, won't have much to complain about. thumbsup.gif
CruisingRam
QUOTE(Ted @ May 25 2004, 03:57 PM)
As I said in the beginning I am not in favor of unfunded mandates in general but I do not consider the “no child left behind” to be in that category.  Remember what states lose if they do what they have done for decades, which is provide a mediocre education to most and a very poor education to many, is l the Federal funding they were getting to do the job RIGHT.    After all, all of us pay in one way or another for poorly educated children. 


I feel defense (homeland security) is in a similar category.  If states do not spend what is required to protect their citizens then should they expect federal aid when/if they are attacked.  I would rather have the states do what is necessary than have some federal agency try to decide how to do the job at the state level.

NCLB is absolutely an UNDER-funded mandate in Alaska- there are funds- but they are far from adequate to our states needs- like I said before- it is very much like knowing that I need to spend 30 thou to restore a car, but only budgeting 20 thou- sure, I have allocated money, perhaps even increased it, but it is not enough to get the job done. Alaska has unique needs, and NCLB is a classic UNDER funded mandate thrust upon a state that really did not need this program in any way- it was forced upon us.

Making business comply with lawful regulations passed by the federal legilslatures and senate is not an unfunded mandate- any more than giving you a ticket for needing repairs to your car is the feds job to fund- to answer your ADA comment- now, you can disagree with the law, such as some do drug laws- but it is not unfunded mandates- perhaps unjust laws, but not unfunded mandates.
Ted
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 25 2004, 10:31 PM)
[NCLB is absolutely an UNDER-funded mandate in Alaska- there are funds- but they are far from adequate to our states needs- like I said before- it is very much like knowing that I need to spend 30 thou to restore a car, but only budgeting 20 thou- sure, I have allocated money, perhaps even increased it, but it is not enough to get the job done. Alaska has unique needs, and NCLB is a classic UNDER funded mandate thrust upon a state that really did not need this program in any way- it was forced upon us.

Making business comply with lawful regulations passed by the federal legilslatures and senate is not an unfunded mandate- any more than giving you a ticket for needing repairs to your car is the feds job to fund-

I see a contradiction in what you say. If our countries future depends on a competent educated work force then it is precisely the duty of the federal government to set the standards for that education and insure, as is the case in much of the US, that the cities and states are not short changing our children by providing a inferior education.

This is equivalent to, as you say “Making business comply with lawful regulations passed by the federal legislatures and senate”.
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Hobbes
QUOTE
3) State/local politicians don't want to be the "villian" because they raised taxes to pay for these mandates. Additionally, these mandates are a problem to states/local governments because the federal government will threaten to withhold federal money from funded mandates and grants (i.e. highway repair funds) if the state/local governments don't enforce the unfunded mandates. The money involves millions of dollars per year.


Precisely why such funding should be pushed down to that level! This serves to show the beneficial effect of pushing down these programs to that level. The closer the politician is to the person actually having to pay for the program, the more accountability he/she will have. In the long-term, this is a good thing. Obviously, during the short-term, this will leave states holding the bag. The solution seems fairly clear to me, though (as with many political decisions, the solution is usually much clearer when you're not the one having to get the votes for it mrsparkle.gif ). If it is a program that benefits the state, then they should raise taxes and/or cut other programs to pay for it. If it's not, they should push that back to Congress and work on getting an 'opt-out' clause.

What I haven't seen mentioned here is why some of these mandates need to be unfunded. The whole purpose in pushing these down to the states is to get accountability closer to the local level. If the funding, etc. continues to come from the federal level, this isn't accomplishing that--rather, what would happen is that the overall tax burden would increase, with federal taxes remaining the same, but state taxes being increased to support the programs being pushed down to them. Of course, the other reason this is happening is that our wonderful politicians have found a way to increase services without having to push for higher federal taxes, completely defeating the ideological reason for pushing these things down to the state level.
nebraska29
QUOTE(Ted @ May 25 2004, 06:57 PM)
Remember what states lose if they do what they have done for decades, which is provide a mediocre education to most and a very poor education to many, is l the Federal funding they were getting to do the job RIGHT.    After all, all of us pay in one way or another for poorly educated children. 


I feel defense (homeland security) is in a similar category.  If states do not spend what is required to protect their citizens then should they expect federal aid when/if they are attacked.  I would rather have the states do what is necessary than have some federal agency try to decide how to do the job at the state level.

It isn't a matter that the states will lose funding after they don't meet the standards. We would be in agreement that lose of funding is what should occur after the fact if a school isn't up to snuff. The problem is the states being underfunded to implement NCLB before assessment standards are in place and thus, ensuring a poor result which will then result in more funds being taken away. In essence, failing public schools becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. NCLB to many states is like an athlete being given a shorter pole vault and then being threatened with having it taken away if the vaulter fails to clear an olympic height the first time. You provide the funding first(which isn't being provided) and then hold that funding and states liable for what comes next. Assessment testing costs money through time, man-hours, grading, and compiling of information. If the feds aren't going to pay for that stuff to get done, then who is going to do it pro bono? These duties what NCLB should pay for, but don't.
Amlord
Here is an interesting article from the Heritage Foundation on unfunded mandates:

What Unfunded Mandates? CBO Study Reveals Washington Not at Fault for State Budget Crises

QUOTE
In fact, only two significant unfunded mandates have been imposed on state and local governments since 1996, according to a new report by the Congressional Budget Office (see Tables 1 and 2). These two unfunded mandates cost the average state only $9 million per year, or 0.09 percent of the typical state's $10 billion general fund budget. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report shows that the 1995 Unfunded Mandates Reform Act (UMRA) has reduced the number of new unfunded mandates placed on state and local governments.2 Consequently, states cannot legitimately blame Washington for their spending crises.


What are these 2 "unfunded mandates"? Minimum wage and food stamps.

No Child Left Behind is NOT an unfunded mandate because participation is voluntary. States can opt-out if they feel that their current level of federal funding is sufficient. The whole program is an incentive for MORE funding by complying with certain standards.

The article goes on to explain what "unfunded mandate" really means:
QUOTE
Why is the number of unfunded mandates so much fewer than is commonly reported? The answer lies in the definition of an unfunded mandate, which UMRA generally classifies as a federal program that meets both of the following criteria.3

-Mandate. "Any provision in legislation, statute, or regulation that would impose an enforceable duty on state, local, or tribal governments...or that would reduce or eliminate the amount of funding authorized to cover the costs of existing mandates. Duties that arise as a condition of federal assistance or from participating in a voluntary federal program are not mandates."4
-Unfunded. "Direct federal funding is less than the amount state, local, and tribal governments would be required to spend to comply with the mandate. Such costs are limited to spending that results directly from the enforceable duty imposed by the legislation rather than from the legislation's broad effects on the economy. "5 An unfunded mandate does not violate UMRA unless the combined annual cost to state, local, and tribal governments exceeds $58 million (inflation-adjusted from $50 million in 1996), which is approximately $1.2 million per state.

The distinction between voluntary and mandated programs is important. Its central principle is that states should be free to spend their own tax revenues as they see fit, rather than be forced to fund unwanted programs imposed by Washington.

Voluntary programs, by definition, are not imposed on states. They are proposals by the federal government of how states could perform a certain function. If a state likes the federal model, Washington offers to help pay the costs of implementing it. If a state dislikes the model, it can opt out and remain independent of federal meddling.

The 2001 No Child Left Behind Act is as an example of a voluntary program. States have the authority to decide how to educate their disadvantaged children. The federal government has created its own model program, the No Child Behind Act, and offered to subsidize the program's cost for any state volunteering to adopt it. The states that have criticized the federal model or found the federal funding insufficient are free to opt out and run their own programs instead.


The largest "unfunded mandate" is actually Medicaid, with an unfunded cost to states of nearly $100 billion per year. I wonder how many people are against health care for the poor and want to scrap this program? hmmm.gif
nebraska29
blink.gif huh.gif Hmmmmmm, interesting information there Amlord. I can't seem to square it away with what the states are complaining about. I would have never imagined that it would be the Heritage Foundation which would argue that it is the states, rather than the federal government's fault for these kind of problems. wacko.gif You are right about food stamps and other social services costing states money. There are more than two programs that cost states money according to a National Conference of State Legislatures flow-chart. Point still being taken under consideration though.

The Heritage link you gave did state that opponents call the NCLB requirements "de facto mandates" You could argue that the feds reserve the right to tell the states how to spend money that is given to them, but it still amounts to the feds using federal dollars as a carrot to get the states to do what they want, think highway funds and raising the drinking age. A state didn't have to change their drinking laws, but they would've been truly hurting for highway funds if they didn't-and it wasn't due to a lack of funding discipline! Same thing goes with NCLB.

Some interesting events as of late:

QUOTE
By a vote of 98 to 1, the House passed a resolution calling on Congress to exempt states like Virginia from the program's requirements. The law "represents the most sweeping intrusions into state and local control of education in the history of the United States," the resolution says, and will cost "literally millions of dollars that Virginia does not have."

and most amusingly from the Virginia Republican wing.....

QUOTE
No Republicans voted against the resolution, a fact that House Education Committee Chairman James H. Dillard II (R-Fairfax) said is proof that "the damn law is ludicrous."


and from the Twilight zone of things:

QUOTE
The only delegate to vote against the resolution was a Democrat, Lionell Spruill Sr. (Chesapeake).
wacko.gif blink.gif huh.gif
Amlord
The fact remains that there is no mandate for the states to follow the NCLB guidelines. Therefore, it is not a mandate.

As Brian Riedl said in National Review a year ago (a companion article to the one he wrote for Heritage):

QUOTE
Some call these programs “de facto mandates” because no rational state would opt out of the federal programs. Why is it irrational to opt out? Because the federal money more than justifies the federal strings attached. States don’t unanimously enroll in these programs because they’re required to — they enroll because the deals are too good to pass up.

Then why are states still so angry with Washington? Because they want that money with no strings attached. They’ve come to consider themselves entitled to the $400 billion they receive annually from Washington. They demand federal dollars, yet they bristle at Washington’s insistence on influencing how its own money is spent.

What Unfunded Mandates?
Ted
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Jun 3 2004, 09:59 AM)
The Heritage link you gave did state that opponents call the NCLB requirements "de facto mandates"  You could argue that the feds reserve the right to tell the states how to spend money that is given to them, but it still amounts to the feds using federal dollars as a carrot to get the states to do what they want,

Yes and if so this is exactly what the Federal Gov. should be doing. States that allow kids to graduate with horrible educations cost ALL of us $ in crime, unemployment etc. every year. It’s about time someone in Washington did something about it.

Bill Clinton did squat. His goal was “kids should be able to read by age 8”. Wow what a goal! Read? Read what? How about math and science? How about a criteria? How about teacher competence? We are nearly a third world country in this area and it never is mentioned.

Bush deserves a big pat on the back for NCLB. Washington has finally DONE SOMETHING to address a decades old problem.
nebraska29
QUOTE(Ted @ Jun 4 2004, 04:18 PM)
Bush deserves a big pat on the back for NCLB.   Washington has finally DONE SOMETHING to address a decades old problem.

The merits of NCLB would take more than a few pages of discussion on a given thread. I'll have to start a topic concerning it's impact under general political discussion. thumbsup.gif I won't put it under the education thread since no one posts there, or at least at a rate that is meaningful. dry.gif I'll be sure and do so before too long. biggrin.gif Once again, the issue isn't whether or not NCLB is a good or bad bill-the topic has to do with unfunded mandates and whether or not the feds owe it to the states to provide funding for things they hand down from the heavens of D.C. to the states.

Amlord has posted some good evidence stating that it is an optional program. hmmm.gif In order to receive federal funds, states must follow NCLB, or create a federally approved program of assessment. What does this mean? You can opt out, but you are required to have an alternative system in place. You can't just get up and walk away from the table as the National Review writer implies in Amlord's citation. I couldn't find in the text of No Child Left Behind that stipulates that a state could opt out and not have a federally approved state pogram and still receive funds. This is not simply a matter of grant money either. NCLB essentially takes the place of the Elementary & Secondary Public Education Act of 1965, which is the key bill as to how our nation's public schools obtain funding. While federal funding constitues around 13% of a general school's funding, it's money that would close more than a few doors if missing. While a school can opt out, in order to obtain their federal funding, they must have an approved plan. This means that yes, it's a mandate. Your state can make it's own plan, but uncle sam has to approve it, and you, not him, have to pay for it.
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