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America's Debate > Archive > Election Forum Archive > [A] Election 2004
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otseng
The scandal continues to escalate as more photos and videos are released.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1221724,00.html
QUOTE
"Be on notice," Mr Rumsfeld said in a standing-room-only Senate hearing room on May 8. "There are a lot more photographs and videos that exist. If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse."


Will the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal ultimately cost Bush his reelection? Or will it have not have a detrimental on his chances of winning?
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GoAmerica
I voted No. Bush had no personal hand in this torture business and i think it won't effect the his chances in the 2004 election. It has hurt his approval rating, though i don't know why. It seems the American people blame him rather then the people responsible in Iraq
Fife and Drum
I had to vote undecided because I don’t think this atrocity alone will cost him the election, but it could be the fabled last straw for many sitting on the fence.

I remember well the criticism of Jimmy Carter when the hostage rescue attempt failed. The liberal media took it out on him and blamed him personally although he had nothing to do with the “X’s and O’s” of the planning and execution. Many thought that alone cost him his re-election bid. Hopefully voters have wised up and realized that the President isn’t directly responsible for this type of activity.

I don’t directly blame Bush for the prison atrocities (unless he was made aware and failed to act) but I indirectly blame him because if we hadn’t gone to war this would have never happened and I know many who share this sentiment.
Grendel72
I voted yes.
I don't think Bush is responsible for the atrocities committed in Americas name, but he is a puppet of the same forces who decided to suspend the Geneva Convention rules, hire mercenaries to "interrogate" Iraqis, and ignore reports from the Red Cross and our own military intelligence regarding the abuse.
The buck has to stop somewhere: maybe if we had a President who was willing to take responsibility for something, anything done on his call, it wouldn't have come to this.
Cube Jockey
I voted yes, because I think he not only knew about the abuses going on there, but probably authorized them in a general way.

Take a read of this article, which describes how much Bush knew according to Powell.

QUOTE
At the Jan. 15 meeting, Kellenberger told Powell, "We have serious concerns about detainees in Iraq," although he did not detail them, a senior State Department official said. The next month, the Red Cross summarized its previous findings in a harsh 24-page confidential critique of abuses against Iraqi detainees between March and November 2003, calling some of them "tantamount to torture."

The report described an inspection of the Abu Ghraib prison in mid-October in which Red Cross officials witnessed detainees who were undergoing interrogation being kept "completely naked in totally empty cells and in total darkness." A military intelligence officer said this practice was "part of the process."

The Red Cross reported that as punishment, detainees were made to walk in the corridors naked or with women's underwear on their heads. It also complained of "brutality" against detainees, "sometimes causing death or serious injury."


So now Powell knows about these abuses...

QUOTE
Secretary of State Colin L. Powell said yesterday that he and other top officials kept President Bush "fully informed ... in general terms" about complaints made by the Red Cross and others over ill-treatment of detainees in U.S. custody.

Powell's statement suggests Bush may have known earlier than the White House has acknowledged about complaints raised by the International Committee of the Red Cross and human rights groups regarding abuse of detainees in Iraq.


Didn't the president say he knew nothing of the abuses at Abu Gharib until Rumsfled told him? Yeah I think so... here is a photo timeline.

QUOTE
May 5: President Bush gives interviews to two Arab-language networks, saying that he and the American people were appalled by the revelations


So that means that Bush knew about this back in January, however he acted shocked and appalled by it in May and scolded Rumsfeld for not telling him. Hmm, sounds like we caught him in a lie.
nebraska29
QUOTE(otseng @ May 21 2004, 07:12 AM)
The scandal continues to escalate as more photos and videos are released.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1221724,00.html
QUOTE

"Be on notice," Mr Rumsfeld said in a standing-room-only Senate hearing room on May 8. "There are a lot more photographs and videos that exist. If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse."


Will the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal ultimately cost Bush his reelection? Or will it have not have a detrimental on his chances of winning?

To me, the issue by itself won't be Bush's undoing. I don't even believe the other issues concerning Iraq will even hurt Bush, because people here are very forgiving of him and tend to place blame on anything else but Bush. No one is going to hold him accountable to: (1)stating that Iraqi oil sales will make up the difference of the cost of this war; (2)there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq; (3)there is a chemcial mobile weapons trailer in Iraq; (4) Iraq possessed UAVs capable of dispensing chemical weapons on our troops; (5) Saddam Hussein posed a threat to his neighbors; (6) American troops will be welcomed as liberators and will have an easy time in Iraq; (7) mission accomplished. Bush is very fortunate in that being perceived as the "aw-shucks" average guy like Joe Six-pack, he really can't do anything wrong in the eyes of most people. Now if this stuff had happened under Clinton..... whistling.gif
logophage
Yeah, what he said wink.gif. I voted yes because I think people are weary of the doubletalk, disinformation and secrecy within Dubya's administration. Whatever moral authority Dubya did have has been spent and is in negative land. The 40% who are Republicans and the 40% who are Democrats have already made up the minds and nothing will change them. The other 20% have shifted away from Dubya because the remaining unquestionably good reason for invading Iraq -- getting rid of Hussein -- has been trumped by the torture scandal.
Hobbes
Not following the logic here:

QUOTE
QUOTE 
May 5: President Bush gives interviews to two Arab-language networks, saying that he and the American people were appalled by the revelations



So that means that Bush knew about this back in January, however he acted shocked and appalled by it in May and scolded Rumsfeld for not telling him. Hmm, sounds like we caught him in a lie.


How does an interview given on May 5th translate back to knowing about something back in January? Nothing in the provided timeline says anything about Bush (or Rumsfeld, for that matter) being told anything in January either.
Cube Jockey
QUOTE(Hobbes @ May 26 2004, 11:25 AM)
Nothing in the provided timeline says anything about Bush (or Rumsfeld, for that matter) being told anything in January either.

Actually it does, I'll repost the relevant section here:

QUOTE
Secretary of State Colin L. Powell said yesterday that he and other top officials kept President Bush "fully informed ... in general terms" about complaints made by the Red Cross and others over ill-treatment of detainees in U.S. custody.

Powell's statement suggests Bush may have known earlier than the White House has acknowledged about complaints raised by the International Committee of the Red Cross and human rights groups regarding abuse of detainees in Iraq.


On May 6th various news sources reported that Bush scolded Rumsfeld privately for not telling him about the abuse at Abu Gharib. You can search for "Bush Scolds Rumsfeld" on google or read this article.

QUOTE
(CBS/AP) President Bush has privately scolded Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for his handling of the Iraq prison abuse allegations, White House officials said.

snip...

The Times reports Mr. Bush was upset that Rumsfeld had not told him about the photographs before they were broadcast.

"The president was not satisfied or happy about the way he was informed about the pictures, and he did talk to Secretary Rumsfeld about it," an official told The Times.

Rumsfeld himself did not know about the images of naked prisoners and gloating U.S. soldiers until the broadcast, a senior White House official said.


So, it is possible to spin this and state that "this is factual, they didn't know about the photographs". However, that is not the issue, they clearly knew about the torture allegations because of the reports from the Red Cross.

What seems more likely is that they knew about this and were trying to handle it quietly. Then when the pictures came out Bush decided to feign ignorance and blame his subordinates for not telling him these atrocities were going on.
popeye47
I don't believe the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal by itself will hurt his chances for re-election but it is another example of Bush not telling the truth.

Example: When the Iraqi prisoner abuse was disclosed, Bush announced that it was a "isolated case committed by a few soliders".

http://template.ajc.com/friday/content/epa...59f10910b0.html

QUOTE

President Bush and military officials have said the abuses were isolated incidents by a few low-ranking soldiers.

In an interview with Al-Arabiya TV, Bush said "the practices that took place in that prison are abhorrent and they don't represent America. They represent the actions of a few people



But in the news today, a "army survey" said that the abuse was widespread.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/politics/26ABUS.html?th

QUOTE

Abuse of Captives More Widespread, Says Army Survey

ASHINGTON, May 25 — An Army summary of deaths and mistreatment involving prisoners in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan shows a widespread pattern of abuse involving more military units than previously known.

The cases from Iraq date back to April 15, 2003, a few days after Saddam Hussein's statue was toppled in a Baghdad square, and they extend up to last month, when a prisoner detained by Navy commandos died in a suspected case of homicide blamed on "blunt force trauma to the torso and positional asphyxia."

Among previously unknown incidents are the abuse of detainees by Army interrogators from a National Guard unit attached to the Third Infantry Division, who are described in a document obtained by The New York Times as having "forced into asphyxiation numerous detainees in an attempt to obtain information" during a 10-week period last spring.

The document, dated May 5, is a synopsis prepared by the Criminal Investigation Command at the request of Army officials grappling with intense scrutiny prompted by the circulation the preceding week of photographs of prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib. It lists the status of investigations into three dozen cases, including the continuing investigation into the notorious abuses at Abu Ghraib.



So it appears that either Bush didn't know what he was talking about or he was just plain telling another big "whopper".

I sincerely hope he is held accountable for every lie that he has told. And the best evidence of that would be not elected for another term as president.
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Paladin Elspeth
This scandal has certainly imperiled Bush's campaign. But it is cumulative with the effects of the domestic job crisis, corporate outsourcing, unreported budget additions for the war in the tens of billions of dollars, tell-all books by former administration officials, resistance to Congressional investigations, soaring gasoline prices, unfunded and underfunded legislative mandate programs (the latter including the Department of Homeland Security), the incursion of government and loss of freedom of privacy (the Patriot Act), alienation of segments of the American population (e.g., gays), indefinitely extended terms of duty as well as the mounting deaths of American military personnel that will make this a squeaker for the President if he actually pulls it off. (Edited to say: Oh, and did I mention the environment?)

To many, this administration appears to have no cogent plan in any area benefitting Americans, unless they are corporate leaders or belong to the Religious Right. But even part of the Religious Right has to be appalled by the photos and testimony of abuse of Iraqi prisoners/detainees in Abu Ghraib prison due to the lack of supervision.

http://www.misleader.org/daily_mislead/Rea...df05262004.html

QUOTE(Bush continues misleading on prison abuse scandal)
Since the scandal broke, the Administration has said that, in Iraq, it always insisted on following the Geneva Conventions on humane treatment for prisoners. However, in a letter to the Red Cross dated December 24, 2003, the Bush Administration asserted that detainees in Iraq "were not entitled to the full protections of the Geneva Convention" 2. This disregard for internationally-recognized human rights regulations was consistent with a January 2002 directive by the White House labeling the Geneva Conventions "quaint" and "obsolete" 3. It is also consistent with a Newsweek report showing that "President Bush, along with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Attorney General John Ashcroft signed off on a secret system of detention and interrogation that opened the door to such methods" of abuse and torture as documented at Abu Ghraib 4. Those secret orders were designed "to sidestep the historical safeguards of the Geneva Conventions."

Instead of acknowledging these documents and upholding his pledge to "usher in an era of personal responsibility,"5 the Bush Administration is now assaulting those who brought the story to light. Sgt. Samuel Provance told the Associated Press he has "been disciplined by the military and stripped of his security clearance" after he publicly refuted the President's claims that the abuse was only the work of a few soldiers6. Meanwhile, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld banned "digital cameras, camcorders and cellphones with cameras" from all military installations in Iraq7. And, as MSNBC reports, the whole Administration is "lashing out at American journalists, adding their official voices to the chorus of talk radio, conservative Web site and newspaper columnists" who claim the media's coverage of the scandal and Iraq in general "is undermining support for the war"8.
carlitoswhey
QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ May 26 2004, 07:10 PM)
This scandal has certainly imperiled Bush's campaign. But it is cumulative with the effects of the domestic job crisis, corporate outsourcing, unreported budget additions for the war in the tens of billions of dollars, tell-all books by former administration officials, resistance to Congressional investigations, soaring gasoline prices, unfunded and underfunded legislative mandate programs (the latter including the Department of Homeland Security), the incursion of government and loss of freedom of privacy (the Patriot Act), alienation of segments of the American population (e.g., gays), indefinitely extended terms of duty as well as the mounting deaths of American military personnel that will make this a squeaker for the President if he actually pulls it off. (Edited to say: Oh, and did I mention the environment?)

To many, this administration appears to have no cogent plan in any area benefitting Americans, unless they are corporate leaders or belong to the Religious Right. But even part of the Religious Right has to be appalled by the photos and testimony of abuse of Iraqi prisoners/detainees in Abu Ghraib prison due to the lack of supervision.

Quite a list. You forgot that people with 'black sounding names' can't vote in Florida or something. Way to get those talking points in!

My 2 cents' worth is that this will blow over by November. 6 months is a loooong time in an election year. With non-stop wall-to-wall network and press coverage, Bush is still neck and neck in the polls, and winning battleground states. The MoveOn.org ad on this shameless, with the hood on the Statue of Liberty. I just can't see how Kerry can gain out of such a negative image.
Lesly
QUOTE
Quite a list. You forgot that people with 'black sounding names' can't vote in Florida or something. Way to get those talking points in!
-- carlitoswhey


Why, you would be correct. In fact, it will be déjà vu all over again this November.

QUOTE
Critics said Florida used out-of-state lists to purge former felons, taking their voting rights away although they had been restored in the state where the crimes had been committed. Florida is among a handful of states that does not automatically restore voting rights of convicted criminals once they leave prison.

Others complained that they were erroneously purged from the rolls because their name was identical or similar to a felon. Critics said blacks were disproportionately affected.

In 2000, some local supervisors refused to purge their rolls because they said they had no faith in how the state compiled its list of disqualified voters.

...

"We feel confident that the same mistakes made in 2000 will not be repeated," Nash said Wednesday.

However, some supervisors question why the administration is making the move this close to the election. Florida's primary is Aug. 31 and the general election is Nov. 2.

-- WFTV article


The government hasn't been able to restore voting rights to people who were erroneously added to the list four years after the fact but it has the drive and time to compile another purging list.

I voted no. Slick Willy has nothing on GWB. Bush can't be held accountable for his own "policies" when he shrinks from the chance to publicly outline the barest parameters from reconstruction plans to an exit strategy. Shifting responsibility, like blaming the CIA for neglecting to remove the Niger report from the SoTU speech after ElBaradei declared the documents a forgery without the benefit of meeting with Niger officials like Joe Wilson, who was summarily ignored, has worked wonderfully for the administration. Low standards will do just as nicely now.
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