In a recent speech, Bill Cosby stated:



I know that this might be somewhat of an inflammatory topic, but I hope that we all can keep this very civil.

Questions for debate:

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech? Is his criticism something they should take to heart?

2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?

3.)Was Cosby too harsh?

This is contructive critisism IMO. I think this is one area that is 100% to blame on bad parenting. Bill Cosby is spot on about opportunities for these folks. White or black or purple, I have a lawyer that tell me in conversation "Is you ain't or is you is"- I will find a new lawyer, Pronto!

I don't think Bill Cosby is a racist or an elitist - and I think his critisism are good for the nation.

You ever listen to Chris Rock or Dave Chappelle? In many ways, they are saying the same things- for instance Chris Rocks "How not to get your butt kicked when stopped by the cops" was funny- and true! #1 way to not get beat by the police? don't break the law and so on-

I forgot who said it- but it still stands "That what is said in jest is often more truthful than that which is said in Earnst"

Comedians today seem to have a better handle on it than anyone!

1) There are profound effects on the capacity to think and visualize that arise from vocabulary and grammar. Languages are adjusted to reflect ways of life. For example, the eskimos have over 100 distinct words to describe types of snow. I'd bet an eskimo has a more profound understanding of the characteristics of snow than a westerner...and not just because they look at it every day. People think as they speak, and the language is reflective of the user. Likewise, language is very important to the conceptualization of the user. Poor language skills create a very large handicap...both in the conceptual ability of the speaker and the way their audience perceives them. This is true of people in the deep south, those who speak only creole in Louisiana, and those who speak only black English.

2) I didn't hear the whole speech, so I don't know.

3) No. I think he was right on.

[QUOTE]2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?

Why is it that those who harp on society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity are seldom questioned as to why they don't address the individual's role in helping himself and his family? It seems to me that society's role in propagating human misery is addressed much more frequently than the individual's role. Why should not individuals be allowed to focus on the individual responsibility side of the coin?

In other words ,Why ain't peeps letting Bill say what he wanna say? he be speakin sum good stuff.

I've always been a fan of Bill Cosby. I remember listening to some of his stand-up performances on vinyl records when I was a kid and loving it. He was never vulgar and always seemed to be a class act.

Anyway, this isn't the first time I've heard Bill express discouragement with the low income demographic. He seems to have a strong belief in the American dream and feels that those who earn less could do more to improve their circumstances. His wording is defenitely a stinging rebuke to those who preach otherwise: that the poor are incapable of bettering themselves thanks to social and capitalist oppression.

I, too, like Bill Cosby and his work.

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech? Is his criticism something they should take to heart?

I echo the sentiments expressed by Mrs. P above concerning the effects of language on the capacity to think and visualize. Cosby's remarks are best interpreted as constructive criticism in that regard.

2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?

Probably not. I don't know if Cosby really addressed any of those issues in his remarks, but I suspect that if if you asked him, he would acknowledge that there is definitely a role social inequality has played in the process, but he wants the African-American community to recognize its own faults in perpetuating it and for parents to do what they can to improve language and education.

3.)Was Cosby too harsh?

On the language issue, I don't think so. I think he was trying to send a wake-up call to the audience and apparently his remarks were met with "astonishment, laughter and applause." However, the referenced article makes it apparent that this was not a comedy venue, but a Constitution Hall event in Washington Monday night commemorating the 50th anniversary of Brown vs. Board of Education. I'm sure there were plenty of people involved in planning the event who may have felt Cosby stradled the line. Cosby also went on to say that when blacks commit crimes, the black community should not be up in arms over the arrest just because the perpetrator is black (I totally agree with this). However, he illustrated it with the following example:


At least with this remark, I think he may have been too harsh. I don't know of any jurisdiction in America that would authorize lethal force to be used if someone stole and ran off with a piece of food. Bill Cosby doesn't either and probably intended the remark for shock impact, but given the nature of the commemorative event in question it might have been too harsh.

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech? Is his criticism something they should take to heart?He has a bit of a point, but the venue he chose to make this point in guarantees that it will be treated as a racial issue when it isn't. As well, the patronizing tone he used was ill advised.
People who use slang are not ignorant, the language evolves with use. People use different modes of speech in different situations, it's sheer ignorance to assume that using an informal tone in informal situations reflects on the intelligence of the speaker.
2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?I think he is.
3.)Was Cosby too harsh?The Cos has a point about our societys' (and that is all of us, no race or income divisions needed) aggressive anti intellectualism, but muddles his point by bringing income into it and his ill chosen choice of venue ensures that certain elements will try to make his comments into a racial thing.

Bill Cosby is more than a comedian. He is also Dr. Bill Cosby - with a fully earned (not honorary) doctorate in education. He takes the issue of education very seriously, and I can imagine his frustration over the fact that many blacks haven't seemed to benefit from what Brown vs Board was supposed to offer.

From my perspective (over 25 years in social work) much of what he is reported saying is more a socio-economic issue than a race issue. A whole new topic might be developed on just why a disproportionate number of blacks are at the bottom of the economic scale.

On the language question I remember a concept that really stuck with me in a master's level course on "the disadvantaged" I took in an education department (30 yrs. ago). The general point was that an expansive and rich language experience in early childhood helped tremendously in both language and thinking skills later in school. It was pointed out that this could happen in day to day routine; but not so readily in low income homes.
Example: "You can have a bologna sandwich or a peanut butter sandwich. Which do you want?" "You can have just two cookies" and "We are going to the park now. Put on your red sweater."
So this kid learns that there are choices, he can have wants, there are parks to go to, he is learning his numbers (two cookies). He is learning his colors (red); because he also has a blue sweater and a green one.
In a low income home he's lucky to get a sandwich at all, never mind what kind; and lucky to have one sweater, so there's no need to specify which.
That class was training students to help parents and children of 1974. A low income kid then may well have had a child of her own by 1989, and her child may be having another child this year.
(Opportunity for another new topic - abstinence only sex ed)

Too harsh? Maybe not. I don't think anybody, including Dr. Cosby, would endorse shooting someone dead for stealing a pound cake. Should they be shot for stealing a steak? Maybe for stealing a car? Or stealing the gold jewelry off an elderly woman after murdering her? Where to draw the line? How many of us learned not to steal because our parents figured out that we didn't "buy" that candy bar; and marched us back to the store to apologize - and return it and/or pay for it (with allowance money)? If you are in a home that doesn't understand and can't teach you that you have a choice, that there are limits to two cookies instead of three, that there are red sweaters for the park and blue sweaters for school - how do you learn you shouldn't steal pound cakes, steaks, or cars?

I think he used his fame and recognition appropriately to issue a strong wake up call. Our whole society should wake up and listen, but until then blacks may once again need to take the lead for themselves and all of us.

Anybody ever read the poetry of Gwendolyn Brooks? This one always stayed with me:

We real cool. We
Left school. We

Lurk late. We
Strike straight. We

Sing sin. We
Thin gin. We

Jazz June. We
Die soon


What Dr. Cosby is talking about is a disease that has reached epidemic proportions in the Black community. It's called anti-intellectualism.

Cosby isn't the first to go off on the Culture of Stupidity. So has Spike Lee and Chris Rock and Oprah Winfrey and Colin Powell and Magic Johnson and Charles Barkley and The Boondocks.

It's already hard enough to raise a chid positively in a world filled with so many negative stimuli. It's even harder when forces conspire to keep that child stupid.

Violent, misgyonist rap keeps black folks stupid. Celebration of pimp, thug, and being a sociopath culture keeps black folks stupid. Drugs, alcohol and too much greasy, starchy foods keeps black folks stupid. A steady diet of trash TV, no books, no computers, and no library cards keeps black folks stupid. Too much emphasis on immediate gratification, easy credit, and lack of fiscal discipline keeps black folks stupid. Too much emphasis on gold-capped teeth, $200 sneakers, tricked-out rides with the biggest rims, cell phones pressed to the ear, pit bull on a leash and pants hanging off the butt keep black folks stupid. Too much priority on being cool, getting paid and hustling instead of being smart keeps black folks stupid.

Dr. Cosby knows that as tough as the job market is in this global economy for White people it's ten times harder for Black people. Especially Black people who have a great color cell phone but no job to go to and put all their assets on their...posteriors...and have SUV's that cost more than the house they're parked in front of.

But specifically to the questions for debate:

1. What "lower economic people" should take from Cosby's speech is that you can't get a job looking like you just walked off the set of a 50 Cent rap video. Not in 99 percent of workplaces in America. You can "keep it real" or you can break out that suit in the back of the closet you keep for funerals and weddings and get a job. That's what Cosby is talking about. As my father told me, "The world doesn't need as many strong backs and weak minds as it used to."

2. Society certainly has a role to play in the elimination of social inequality and lack of opportunity. But if a black kid has skills with a microphone in one hand and a basketball in the other are greater than his math, English and social skills he's probably going to emptying the wastebaskets of the Bill Gates of the world instead of becoming the next one. We live in a world where the biggest barrier to a black person's success is an inability to recognize the barrier is no longer there.

3. Was Cosby too harsh? Yes he was if the truth is harsh. If the truth is most of us aren't going to win American Idol, play point guard for the Lakers or become a mogul and Broadway star like P.Diddy. Most of us are going to have to get up, clean up and go get a crappy job doing something we hate for people we don't like. That is, if we haven't prepared ourselves for something else besides thinking about rings, material things and bling-bling.

Malcolm X said tomorrow belongs to those who prepare for it today. I doubt he meant slinging enough rocks to buy the new Air Jordans at Foot Locker.

[quote=nighttimer,May 22 2004, 05:47 AM] [QUOTE=nebraska29,May 21 2004, 05:33 PM]
What Dr. Cosby is talking about is a disease that has reached epidemic proportions in the Black community. It's called anti-intellectualism. [/quote]
Excuse me for saying so, but I don't think anti-intellectualism is a peculiarly black trait in modern America.

It infests the whole of society inside the USA, and to a somewhat lesser extent, across the whole Anglo-Saxon world.

Our whole business and technical economy relies on people who have specialist skills - there is little or no requirement for generalists any more. Since education is now seen as a primarily economic tool, the trend is for schools and universities to be less and less focused on general education, instead churning out ever larger numbers of people whose knowledge and understanding of the world around them is focused on one or two narrow specialisms. Outside these areas, we increasingly are either ignorant, or uninterested, or both.

In part, the great advances in sciences (including social ones) and technology have meant it simply isn't possible for one person to have expertise in more than a few areas, the way it was for, say, Da Vinci or even Edison.

But beneath this increasingly narrow-minded middle class, there is a whole swathe of people who do not see the point of education. For several years now, social mobility in Anglo-Saxon societies has been ossifying. Those at the top do not fall, and those at the bottom do not rise. The anecdotes of the rags to riches (or riches to rags) successes are notable mainly for their atypicality - at the bottom, hard work usually doesn't lead to great success (and modest success is no longer valued by anyone else in our societies - our ideas of success today are skewed towards being rich rather than comfortable - so why should the poorest people be any different?).

The great myth is that if you work hard enough for long enough, you will succeed. Certainly, it is quite unusual for anyone who does succeed to do it without hard work (except for those that inherit their wealth, of course, who will only grow in numbers if & when "death taxes" are abolished).

But in any other walk of life, we would laugh at such a self-selected sample. We don't see the people who do work hard but still don't succeed because they don't succeed. Our societies, and American society in particular, doesn't like to think about failure, so we avoid thinking about that particular abyss, lest it think about us.

And as we all buy into the myth more and more, and cut our own taxes and get rid of the programs that were originally designed, with however many flaws, to give the people at the bottom a leg up by taxing the people at the top, we remove more and more of the incentives to the people at the bottom to even try and play the game.

From their point of view, what point is there to speaking standard English (and, realistically, how many native-born urban poor Americans genuinely CANNOT speak or understand standard English?) when the best job on offer comes with a baseball cap & apron? What point is there to learning when it can only be acheived at the cost of huge debt, which can only be paid off in a few careers?

From ours, though, they aren't playing the game by the rules we think we are using, so we think they should either play fair or be penalised. This only makes us more determined to enforce the rules that we think we played to when we played and won, conveniently ignoring that our success was not just down to our own hard work, but also to the dumb luck that we are so busy denying we can't admit it to ourselves, let alone anyone else.

So we try ever harder to blot out from our consciousness anything that might let light in on out dark little dream. Things like thoughtful people who wonder aloud how things might be different. Or "liberals" who think that dumb luck does play a part, and that those who benefit from it should not begrudge helping those who don't, and maybe the tax system should reflect that, because human generosity is not as reliable or certain as taxation.

Is the sneering anti-intellectualism that characterises much of the prejudice against "liberals in academia" because they are liberals, or because they are academics? And might they be liberals because they are smarter and have more time to think than we do?

(Of course, the risk of allowing luck to play a part in our ideas of success or failure is that it becomes the only thing that play a part, and everyone stops believing hard work makes a difference. Both are necessary, which is why out-and-out socialism works as badly as raw market capitalism. Social markets are the best recipe for sanity AND success, but they are fine line to walk without wobbling into one extreme or the other.)

SO, after a preamble that is long even by my own standards of rambling, Cosby was right to draw attention to the issue, but maybe over-simplistic in his presentation of it.

By any measure he must count as a political liberal in the USA (surely?) so it's worth praising him for recognising some realities. I just wish political conservatives would publicly place more value on some liberal ideas while in office (it's too easy to do it when you aren't - what happened to the compassion in George W Bush's conservatism?).

Point taken Julian and well stated, sir.

I specifically limited my rant to the Black community in America, because it's the one that I am most initimately familiar with and as a parent of two children who excel in school, I know the forces arrayed against their success.

I agree that society has devalued intelligence, an appreciation of fine art, good books, manners and all the other factors that uplift our minds, bodies and souls. But the problem is if something is a disease in the larger White Anglo-Saxon culture it is often a plague among the Black and Brown cultures.

Bill Cosby is a part of what W.E.B. DuBois called, "The Talented Tenth." DuBois believed that it would be the exceptional people of the Negro race that would lead and inspire others to achieve great things. Unhappily, what DuBois failed to see that many blacks having reached a level of intellectual achievement and economic success would "sell out" and abdicate any sense of social responsibility to "uplift the race." This is a charge regularly applied to black athletes and celebrities.

Dr. Cosby has put his money where his mouth is and though he's getting increasingly grouchy in his old age, the man has a point. If I were going to the White House to interview the President of the United States am I going to slap him five or extend my right hand and shake his? Am I going to say, "Wuzzup, dawg?" or "Good morning, Mr. President?"

The thing is black people and ALL people of color have to be able to move within the larger white society. The way I speak around my homies while we're playing Madden 2004 on a PlayStation in someone's crib isn't the same way I would speak if I were interviewing in the office of the personnel manager at IBM. Call it slang, jive, Ebonics or whatever you like. To make it in this society, you have to be able to speak two languages: one for the street and another for the suites.

50 years after Brown vs Board of Education was decided that stated "separate but equal" was unequal, the task of educating black children remains enormous. Sitting a black child next to a white child never meant they would automatically suck in knowledge from one and impart understanding to the other. But because the experiment wasn't a unqualified success should it be dismissed as a total failure?

Men of America, the problem is plain before you. Here is a race transplanted through the criminal foolishness of your fathers. Whether you like it or not the millions are here, and here they will remain. If you do not lift them up, they will pull you down. Education and work are the levers to uplift a people. Work alone will not do it unless inspired by the right ideals and guided by intelligence. Education must not simply teach work — it must teach Life. The Talented Tenth of the Negro race must be made leaders of thought and missionaries of culture among their people. No others can do this work and Negro colleges must train men for it. The Negro race, like all other races, is going to be saved by its exceptional men.

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library...cumentprint=174

Having a son that, for the purpose of this debate I will label brown, I can honestly say that he was surrounded with anti-intellectualism much more than I was. Anti-intellectualism does disproportionately effect people of color. If you ask me it rivals illegitimate births as the biggest problem of our times.

An anecdote: My son once came home complaining that a poor grade on a paper was due to the teacher being prejudice. I took a brief look at the paper and responded that the teacher must be practicing affirmative action to give him as high a grade as he recieved.

I remember a Psych 101 class that there were four basic responses to racism 1) Ignore it 2) Work harder to overcome it 3) Give up 4) Attempt to still reach societys standards through illegitimate means. Those of color need to recognize that an individual should choose one of the first two options, not the latter two. By ignore it, I simply mean the individual should not let the recognition of racism hinder his personal development. Clearly as long as racism exists some individuals will give up or pursue illegitimate means to an end. Racism should be attacked by society. As long as racism exists there will be negative effects on minorities, their communities and society at large..

I agree that Cosby narrowed his focus a little much on a small segment of a socially disadvantaged section of a race, when he could've been talking about the entire American society in general. Perhaps the problem is a combination of materialism, careerism, and instant gratification? I agree likewise that education is seen as a way to obtain a special skill to earn an occupation, not so much as to become more liberally rounded in knowledge. I know people who pursue master's degrees to just advance up the payscale or to learn a new occupation such as teaching or counseling. They will complain endlessly of the professor who dares to (gasp!) make them read and think about ideas contained in a book. The solution? Other than trying to insulate our own children from such influences, I'm not certain what there is that can be done.

This morning, I was thinking about what Bill Cosby said, but my memory wandered a bit. I first heard his album titled, "Himself" as a teenager. I thought it was the funniest thing I had ever heard. I later saw the actual concert and his body language and facial expressions made it that much better. To this day, when I eat chocolate cake, I might break out in the song he sang on the album.

Dad is great. Give us the chocolate cake!

I remember watching Fat Albert and in hindsight, I realize Bill Cosby was instrumental in teaching children values through animation. Then came the Huxtables, another outstanding family show that taught values.

I realized this man was a huge influence in my life. He has contributed greatly to society. His words should be taken seriously because his goal is genuine. It takes more than a village. You have to want to improve yourself first. Hats off to Dr. Huxtable.

Well said, Beladonna, I couldn't agree more. There are few people in Hollywood I respect more than Bill Cosby.

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech? Is his criticism something they should take to heart?
While I believe his comments can be treated as more universal than just for the "lower economic people", the wisdom behind the words is undeniable. I found this commentary from Colbert I. King in the Washington Post pretty much echoed my thoughts on the subject. In particular:


2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?
Maybe, but ultimately it goes back to parenting. As parents, you can't rely on anyone else to teach your kids values. And opportunity for an education is available to everyone.

3.)Was Cosby too harsh?
Nope, the truth hurts. Lots of races aren't holding up their end of the deal. Cosby, being one of the premier spokesmen for the African-American community is well within his range of calling people to task and telling them to step up. As King closed his colum on the subject "Cosby's wrong about one thing. It's not just low-income folks. A lot of us aren't holding up our end in this deal."

Doc

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech? Is his criticism something they should take to heart?

That learning basic English is essential to succeeding in America. Especially considering the tendency of 'black leaders' to blame everyone but themselves for everything. If you don't speak English, you don't succeed. Brown gave more people more opportunity, but if white teachers started failing black students for non-English speaking, there would be a revolution, which is sad.

2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?
Nope. Breakdown of the family is both societal and individual.

3.)Was Cosby too harsh?
No.

Just wanted to add - I agree with CruisingRam!

Slightly off-topic -

Did you guys see Eddie Murphy's imitation of Bill Cosby in "Eddie Murphy Raw"?

Soooo funny - Eddie said
"Bill Cosby called me up on the phone and chastised me because my act was too dirty. I was all excited, come running in the house, pick up the phone and say 'Mr Cosby?!' and Bill got raw on me: 'I would like to talk to you about some of the things that you do in your show...'"

Talkin about calling up Richard Pryor and telling him that Bill criticized him:
Pryor: Do people laugh when you say what you say?
Murphy: Yes...
Pryor: Do you get paid?
Murphy: Yes...
Pryor: Well, then tell Bill to have a Coke and a smile and shut the **** up!

LMAO.
Eddie Murphy Raw is hilarious stand up work....enough with the plug...


But I agree - there's a difference between knowing when/how to turn off the act and putting your self-respecting intellectual face forward to the world. Many low-income kids/people don't know how to flip that switch. And that's part of the reason why they remain low-income.

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech? Is his criticism something they should take to heart?

This is part of the need to establish responsibility for your own success. Sure, there are many social/cultural factors that have an impact on everyone's ability to succeed--this is the case for people of all social strata. However, you have to deal with things that are in your own control--your language skills are one those things, and probably one of the most important.

2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?

Absolutely not. As I said above, everyone has to take personal responsibility of their own success. Regardless of particular factors that might be affecting one's situation--if you want to succeed, it is up to you to take the steps necessary to do so. Sitting there blaming society for your ills--justified or not--is not going to do anything constructive. Learning to speak 'proper' ('business?') English will, and is something completely within an individual's control.

3.)Was Cosby too harsh?

Hmmm...see above? If anything, without seeing the entire speech, I guess I'd have to say not harsh enough. As Nighttimer stated, anti-intellectualism is an epidemic, and does seem to particularly effect the Black community (and probably the Native American community as well). I am struck by a Q&A session I saw with Eddie Murphy recently (sorry, don't remember the link). He was asked which were his favorite books when he was a child. He answered that no one ever read to him when he was young, it wasn't part of life in the ghetto. Wow--this had never even occurred to me. Reading to your child is constantly stressed by child educators as one of the single most important things you can do for your child's development. So, if this isn't happening in the 'Black community' (or any lower economic community), it is putting these children at a significant educational disadvantage, one from which it will be extremely difficult to advance later in life.



Well stated, NT. Please allow me to inject a personal perception here, admittedly based on limited personal experience. I think there is a general tendency of many in the Black community to rebel against this. I think part of this stems from a failure to realize the importance, and part from a desire not to 'give-in' to white culture. What I think needs to be changed is the perception that this is 'white culture'. Insert the term 'business culture', and the statement is just as true. People of all walks of life (white middle class included) have to adjust to this. I have taken to not wearing my ear-ring because I know it can effect people's judgement of me--ditto for long hair, beards, etc. (ask Johnny Damon). The difference I see is that in white, middle class America, we are taught from child-hood to adapt to these situations to get ahead, while the issue being discussed here points to this not being the case in the Black community. I think this goes to the 'anti-intellectualism' being discussed, and is one of the primary obstacles to Blacks achieving equal success in our society.


This is the question I am attempting to address.



Julian, I think you would be surprised. I saw it myself, within my own family. I grew up with my mom, in a middle-class neighborhood with a very good educational system (one of the reasons I grew up there). My brother and sister lived with my dad, in predominantly lower class, blue collar areas (oil fields and timber industries, 'white trash' would probably be appropriate). I remember working with them when they took college classes on their English papers. They did not understand that speech 'slang' did not, in any way, constitute proper English, which was very eye-opening to me, and in talking with them prior to this you could clearly see that they were intelligent, informed people. But this was completely lost in any paper they had to prepare, and I would have to say it would have been obvious in any interview situation as well. I don't think this is purely a 'Black' thing--it is prevalent in any environment in which education is not stressed. I think it is one of the primary differentiators within the Asian community, where grades are an obsession. One other differentiator I see is that within the Black community, there are various 'alternative' careers being perceived, sports being one of the perceived career paths, but various other 'alternative' paths being present as well, none of which require education to be successful (heck, could even be a detriment). Comments?

I think the education cost issue is a factor in this, but a misleading one. First, college financing is set up so that ability to pay is not supposed to be a factor preventing someone from getting an education. I think this fact is not widely understood--anyone really can affort an education (in fact, I think the system adversely affects middle-class to upper middle class more so than lower economic groups). I know that even within my family, where I went through advanced studies paid for with school financial aid, the education financial aid system was very misunderstood. So I don't see how it could possibly be properly perceived within communities where there is little to no college attendance. I don't think the debt load is the issue--failure to get the word out that the money really is available is the problem. That, and perhaps the fear that they won't succeed, but will still be strapped with the debt load for the attempt.

I agree with the notion that these dis-connects from SAE are not at all limited to the black and other minority community. It is also rampant in certain regions and classes of the white populations and is a key factor in their poverty.

And even 'native' speakers of SAE have two very different versions - at home and informal vs business or formal. When we want to impress, out comes the correct grammar and latinate vocabulary; at home and among friends grammar is 'non-standard' and the vocabulary is earthy and anglo-saxon.

I think the fact is that all american speakers of english normally deviate from SAE, it is merely a question of proficiency on demand and the degree of awareness about when formal speech is required.

The interesting thing is that all of this dates back to a schism that began long before american slavery - to the norman conquest of england. Non-standard english (black and white) is the direct descendant of the Saxon peasant speech after the conquest, divorced from it's former academics. Standard american english is the direct descendant of 'proper' english, the english of the upper-class as eventually spoken by the norman conquerors - complete with latinate vocabulary and grammar rules.

The battle continues one thousand years later.

I must say I have many excellent, well thought out comments in this section. Mrs. P, AC, Julian bravo!

This man did not grow up in an upper class neighborhood, yet managed to learn the English language. All of American society should take his comments to heart, they were meant for all of us.

Not at all, we are have choices to make. Society has been the fall guy for too many issues. It is time that the individuals take responsibility for their own actions.

Not even close. I hate it when somebody "Axed" me a question. I grew up in another country and had to learn to speak their language, and then when I came back to America I had to relearn English. Is it hard, heck yes! But it is worth all of the work to be able to understood. It can and must be done.

I find it very ironic. Remember the Cosby kids? There was one kid that spoke with a grossly exaggerated lower lip. I can still hear Cosby do that bit. "Flabble, flabble flabble........"

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech? Is his criticism something they should take to heart?
Depends on where Cosby's words were heard or written. Chances are the people that he was refereing to, won't ever hear his comments.

2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?
No, I don't think that Bill was brought up privileged, yet he learned the english language. Parents ARE to blame. I was a horrible little brat, but I learned YES and No, as opposed to Nope, Naw, yep uh-huh..........

3.)Was Cosby too harsh?

By Cosby standards????? A little. I saw him on Letterman a month ago or so, and he is getting a little more angry in his old age. Fairly common amongst comedians I think. Look at Carlin these days. His shows are very witty and funny, but it boils down to a 60 minute rant session.

We've all gotten pretty lazy with our language. One unfortunate consequence is that there is less civility.

I think Bill Cosby is right. The type of language we all use influences the opinions of others. This can really be to our detriment in job interviews. Cosby's criticisms are intended to help those he is criticizing.

Some cannot be blamed for not having received the opportunity to learn better English. But many of us are just slackers when we are speaking. We know better.

Bill Cosby. Bourgeois elitist? Or telling it like it T-I-S?

Decide for yourself.

When the Coz came to Constitution Hall last week, he was one up on his audience. He had no solutions, and unlike his audience, he knew it. And so he fell back on what elitists do best—impose condescending lessons on ethics and etiquette. He fell back on Fat Albert, and a world where poverty can be beaten through sheer force of blithe axiom. Morality becomes the answer when you don't have another one. Maybe we are everything the racists say we are—dumb, fat, and cute, in a really ugly and childish sort of way. But if we could just pay attention in school, stop stealing, learn proper English, and correctly apply deodorant, we'd be all right. Well, maybe not all right, but at least we wouldn't make Cosby look so bad.

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0421/coates.php

The fact is, Cosby said nothing about black underachievement that black people have not said before. His mistake, if you want to call it that, was in speaking publicly. Because publicly, we — black and white — prefer to stick to the script that makes it easiest on us, demands the least from us.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/n.../8749422.htm?1c


Speaking to an audience that was probably 75 percent black, Cosby, who received an award for philanthropy, began his acceptance speech by blurting, "Fifty percent dropout rate." That's the statistic for black students opting to drop out of school in many areas of the nation. Cosby, who has a doctorate in education, harped on that periodically throughout his, let's say, "night-time current events lesson." (The term "diatribe" might be a bit too strong.)

He spoke of the epidemic of out-of-wedlock births among black folk, saying, "People used to be ashamed." Nowadays, he said, "a woman has eight children with eight different 'husbands,' or men or whatever you call them now."

Cosby, in what appeared to be a veiled reference to the dangers of the hip-hop culture, moved on to poor English spoken by many black folk, saying some American-born black people are immigrants in their own country because of this.

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/thesunherald/...ial/8751968.htm

‘‘I am talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit. Where were you when he was 2? Where were you when he was 12? Where were you when he was 18 and how come you didn’t know that he had a pistol? And where is the father?’’
‘‘... we cannot blame white people ...’’
‘‘People putting their clothes on backward: Isn’t that a sign of something gone wrong? ... People with their hats on backward, pants down around the crack, isn’t that a sign of something, or are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up? Isn’t it a sign of something when she has her dress all the way up to the crack and got all type of needles (piercing) going through her body? What part of Africa did this come from? We are not Africans. Those people are not Africans; they don’t know a d--- thing about Africa.’’
‘‘With names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all of that c---, and all of them are in jail. Brown v. the Board of Education is no longer the white person’s problem. We have got to take the neighborhood back. ... They are standing on the corner and they can’t speak English.’’

http://www.gwinnettdailyonline.com/GDP/arc...F6805347778.asp

I'm weighing in with Leonard Pitts and Gregory Clay. I don't like Cal Thomas' opinions most of the time (surprise! surprise!).

Cosby might have gotten some people upset by his diatribe (and yes, it was), but it sounds like it was something that he wasn't entirely alone in believing.

The way we perceive ourselves is far more important in the long run than how we are perceived by others. If we have low self esteem and do not take measures to improve ourselves, educationally or otherwise, we fail to progress.

Cosby's statements, though scathing, have a significant element of truth, and they could have just as easily been directed to white "trash".

The Great Cosby Controversy goes on. My wife and I had lunch with a friend today and we discussed it and my brother and I discussed it and my wife discussed it at school today.

And so are black folks on the Right, Left and the stuck in the Middle:

Far from just bashing blacks, Cosby has given generously to promote black education. But he is still old-fashioned enough to think that others need to take some responsibility for using the opportunities that were gained for them by "people who marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an education."

Now, in too many black communities, dedicating yourself to getting an education is called "acting white."

These are painful realities and they do not become any less real or any less painful by hushing them up. Nobody enjoys being made to look bad in public. But too many in the black community are preoccupied with how things will look to white people, with what in private life would be concern about "what will the neighbors think?"

When your children are dying, you don't worry about what the neighbors think. When the whole future of a race is jeopardized by self-destructive fads, you put public relations on the back burner.

(Thomas Sowell) http://www.vvdailypress.com/cgi-bin/newspr...085576926,23614,

On the other hand...

But the cultural critic Michael Eric Dyson said that Mr. Cosby's comments "betray classist, elitist viewpoints that are rooted in generational warfare." Mr. Dyson, a professor of religious studies and African studies at the University of Pennsylvania, said Mr. Cosby was "ill-informed on the critical and complex issues that shape people's lives."

Mr. Cosby's comments, he added, "only reinforce suspicions about black humanity."

Addressing that point, Mr. Cosby said yesterday, "The conservative groups are not saying anything that they weren't already saying about us."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/22/arts/22COSB.html (registration required)

And finally from a sister who was part of that "uneducated masses" the Cos was rappin' about:

You see, I could care less about what white people think of us. I do, however, care about solutions. I see kids everyday that are "knuckleheads" and sometimes I do think, "That's a shame". The difference is that I would never belittle them to their face because then I would never have a chance to be a positive influence in their lives. My credibility would be shot. Any successful person knows that you cannot build a bridge to someone by firing missles. Point being, his comments demonstrate a lack of concern. Millions of ears will now disregard everything he says because of a few thoughtless comments. There is a way to say everything. The way he chose is what my grandma would call "from his high horse". He said these things in a room full of "high polootin' folk". To get laughs? To share their mutual irritation with the poor? To further the stigma that already separates the black haves and black have-nots? Only he knows.

http://www.debradickerson.com/blogs/when_s...stics_speak.htm

Apparently ole Bill wasn't finished

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/07/01/cosby.com...s.ap/index.html



I personally think his message is awesome. I just wish more people would realize its universal. Its ok to start there but extend it beyond race. Don't look at someone or something else for the source of your problems, look in the mirror.

Doc

Well for those who've read my intro know that I, and my current girlfriend, pretty much went from being one of these lower economic people to where I am now. I whole heartily agree with his message, my echoing of his statements to my lower economic friends is the reason why they call me the Reverend.

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech? Is his criticism something they should take to heart?


I think that this is a very significant step in reforming these lower economic people. What the Cos has done is effectively identified a problem with society and addressed it without sugar coating it. We have spent to long on begging and praying for our kids to goto school and better themselves somehow, it is way past due to get angry at the problem.

2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?
No, everyone had the opportunity to goto school and make something of their lives. I do not see how someones choice to drop out to do drugs or whatever to "be down" is the fault of society.

3.)Was Cosby too harsh?
No, Like I previously stated we have been pleading with these people to get their things straight. We should began ridiculing them years ago.

Cosby's comments yesterday came in a surprising venue.

Again, he was right on the mark.



It starts at home. It extends from the home to the community.

A friend of my wife described to her growing up in the slums in New York City. How drugs were sold outside her door every day. About how she and her four siblings never had anything to do with it because of her strict parents keeping them on the straight and narrow. Despite being from the "ghetto", she applied for and received a scholarship to West Point, graduated and married. She explained how she felt that having two parents in her household gave her a leg up on those around her. She would not excuse their behavior, however, saying that these people make choices to keep doing what they are doing, rather than bettering themselves and their families. She is extremely successful now, and so has probably lost her credibility with some...

Was she lucky, or did she make a choice to leave that environment? I believe, as my signature says, that "Choice, not Chance, determines Destiny".

I was encouraged that Jesse Jackson agreed with Bill Cosby. Perhaps there will be more support for Cosby's calls for personal responsibility. We can only hope.

What I am about to say will be controversial and will probably get me labeled just because I voice these opinions as a white woman. White people aren't allowed to be honest about their feelings with regard to this issue because if we say anything that even seems slightly negative, we are labeled racist.

It's always disturbed me that when African-Americans try to be successful, other African-Americans ridicule them for "acting white". If that is how they feel, and if working hard and trying to be successful is "acting white", what is "acting black"?

And if trying to better yourself is "acting white", then why would those that find "acting white" so abhorrent want to promote social programs? Aren't those suppose to make you better off, thereby "acting white"?

Bill Cosby is preaching the correct message. A message that should have been preached by those who call themselves "advocates for minorities". Jesse Jackson certainly hasn't preached this message. Al Sharpton hasn't preached this message. You don't hear this message from the left. The only lesson these people ever taught was "victimization" and "it's all white people's fault". This message may have been right during the civil rights movement, but those excuses has long outlived their usefulness and are only being used now to line pockets and voting booths.

The only thing holding Black people back is Black people.

My hat is off to Bill Cosby for having the guts to speak a truth that is often spoken quietly amongst the black community, but never said where "anyone else" can hear.

I hope I am not taken the wrong way here. But, the big complaint here seems to be that Bill Cosby focused his rant on the black community (not because of what he said, but where he said it).

Assuming that this is true, is it not possible that as a Black man, Bill Cosby is trying to change and uplift his own community? Is it wrong for him to focus on the racial community that he belongs to and likely loves?

I agree that this issue is "raceless", and actually environmental. However, I do not see a problem with someone focussing on their own group of people in the hopes of helping and uplifting them. Especially when the groups he was talking in front of have a political history of publicly blaming every woe of their community on everything but their community.

I say publicly because I had the pleasure to once hear Jessie Jackson talk to a group of black high school students when there were no cameras or reporters around. His theme that day was that the black community was cannibalizing itself by committing crimes against each other, selling drugs to it's children and not doing anything remotely like parenting when it came to motivating kids to do well in school, work hard at jobs, or obey the law to avoid prison.

For whatever reason, the people the media deem to be the leadership of Black America will not discuss these issues in public. I guess they might see it as airing dirty laundry, but if they keep these issues under wraps how will they be solved?

I’m not going to pretend I’m intimately familiar with black culture, because, well, I’m whiter than white. But, I do know Cosby’s been kind of going off the deep end for quite a while. What a sweeping stereotype he made when he said “Black men need to stop beating their women out of frustration and the inability to find a job.” If I was a black man, I would be outraged. As a white woman, I'm outraged!

A poster on BET.com says “My problem is with Bill. He's trying to guide the black community in the right direction by verbally abusing us. A man known for sexual relationships with white women outside of his marriage. One affair led to a young female, of mixed heritage, accusing him of being her father. Her mother, over the years, led her to believe Bill was her father.” It takes a lot of chutzpa for Cosby to criticize others for airing “dirty laundry”.

Another poster says “However, how did Cosby get his wealth-from being a buffoon comedian in front of mostly white audiences, and from comedy films. How many times has Cosby been in the poor black neighborhoods tutoring these black youth in math, science, English, etc?” I’d have to agree; instead of standing there condemning the poor black community, there are other, more positive ways to deliver the message. What I find disturbing is that most of the posters (the majority, I assume, are black) seem to agree with Cosby. BET

As for the language, white kids don’t have their own bizarre vernacular? And characterizing poor black families raising kids who become criminals – replace “poor black families” with another ethnic group, and isn’t it the basest and ugliest form of stereotyping? Kids have always rebelled, and for every Puff Daddy and 50 Cent, there’s a Marilyn Manson or Kid Rock.

Cosby’s become a hateful, crotchety old curmudgeon. While his message has value, the way he delivered it was hostile and demeaning. While there is some truth in his speech, the venom with which he delivered it is off-putting. And he totally ignores all the poor to middle income, law-abiding blacks who are hard-working contributors to society, and the black kids who do succeed. Isn’t that the same thing the white majority is guilty of when they characterize all blacks as criminals?


And how disturbing is it when Cosby and the whitest-of-white-men, good old Rush Limbaugh are arm-in-arm on the issue?

Daffy Girl, while conservatives such as Limbaugh and Thomas Sowell have seized upon Bill Cosby's remarks that doesn't invalidate them. There will always be pilot fish trailing along looking for the tidbits the shark leaves behind.

Here's something that you may not know about black culture, but I and Cosby and many of us do: the phrase personal responsibility is not an alien concept. It's not a conservative concept or a liberal concept. It's a human concept and Bill Cosby---out of a spirit of love, not hate---is urging the black underclass to get their act together.

The cheap shots about Bill Cosby's personal failings are just that---cheap shots and a distraction from dealing with the real issues he brings up. Or let me put it this way, what would white people do if....

More white males were in the prison system than in college.

If 50 percent of white youths never graduated from high school.

If the unemployment rate for white males (5.0) were twice that of black males (10.7).

http://www.bls.gov/webapps/legacy/cpsatab2.htm

If drugs, disease, poor health, lack of employment opportunities, drop-out rates, literacy and virtually every other meaningful statistic were tilted against whites as it is against blacks, then white people would be in crisis mode.

Bill Cosby happens to think blacks are in a crisis mode and it's two minutes before midnight. People can get bent over how he said it but not over what he said.

You see Daffy Girl , while it's true that white kids have their own bizarre slang, that won't inhibit them from going out into Corporate America to get a job when the time comes. Yes, for a Puff Daddy and a 50 Cent there's a Marilyn Manson or Kid Rock, but have you heard Marilyn Manson speak as in Bowling For Columbine? He's very intelligent and articulate. How hard would it be for Brian Warner (Manson) or Robert James Ritchie (Rock) to cut their hair, put on a tie and long sleeved shirt to cover their tattoos and walk into General Electric to submit a job application? Manson ditches the outrageous stage persona and Kid Rock puts aside the beer-guzzling, white trash persona and they can at least get an interview.

Do you think the same principle applies to Curtis (50 Cent) Jackson and Sean (P. Diddy) Combs?

Maybe I can blame my white boss for giving me a hard time at work, but is that an excuse to go home and beat my wife? When two teens decide to play sex without the latex, is it an evil white conspiracy that he gets her knocked up and she pops out a baby without a daddy nine months later? If a kid drops out of high school to pursue a career in the NBA because he has a dream of dunking over Shaquille O'Neal---and then doesn't get drafted---where's the evil white man that tricked him into giving up his future?

There's no other option for black people when education fails, job skills lack and social development isn't present. A tough economy for whites is a horrible one for non-whites. I understand that and Cosby does too. Unfortunately, it seems a lot of young black kids put a higher priority in rims, rings and bling-bling than reading, writing, arithmetic and being able to ace a job interview without resorting to slang and lazy articulation.

A white kid can pay that cost and probably recover. A black kid can't. As a parent of two kids in a urban school system this isn't something I have to speculate about in the abstract. That's why I consider myself the authority on this matter and not Rush Limbaugh or the People's World Weekly. I live the reality they can only talk about.

What Dr. Cosby is talking about is a disease that has reached epidemic proportions in the Black community. It's called anti-intellectualism.

Cosby isn't the first to go off on the Culture of Stupidity. So has Spike Lee and Chris Rock and Oprah Winfrey and Colin Powell and Magic Johnson and Charles Barkley and The Boondocks.

It's already hard enough to raise a chid positively in a world filled with so many negative stimuli. It's even harder when forces conspire to keep that child stupid.

Violent, misgyonist rap keeps black folks stupid. Celebration of pimp, thug, and being a sociopath culture keeps black folks stupid. Drugs, alcohol and too much greasy, starchy foods keeps black folks stupid. A steady diet of trash TV, no books, no computers, and no library cards keeps black folks stupid. Too much emphasis on immediate gratification, easy credit, and lack of fiscal discipline keeps black folks stupid. Too much emphasis on gold-capped teeth, $200 sneakers, tricked-out rides with the biggest rims, cell phones pressed to the ear, pit bull on a leash and pants hanging off the butt keep black folks stupid. Too much priority on being cool, getting paid and hustling instead of being smart keeps black folks stupid.

http://www.debradickerson.com/blogs/when_s...stics_speak.htm
http://www.columbusalive.com/2004/20040609/ (click on "Commentary

There has always been a strong ethic of self-help within the black community. Cosby is part of a growing number of figures who believe now is the time to accept responsibility for our own lives and stop making excuses for black pathology and failure. That doesn't mean racism no longer exists. It's just not a good excuse for bad behavior.

Nighttimer, I’m not disagreeing with you, but is generalizing all poor blacks as wife-beaters and uneducated idiots that can’t speak proper English a positive means of promoting change? I acknowledge that education is key to succeeding, no matter the color of one’s skin. I think Cosby’s efforts would be better aimed at reforming the crappy school system rather than criticizing black pop culture.

I apologize for the sources, but I don’t have the personal, inside experience of being poor and black. Poor and white, yes, but as you’ve stated, I can’t put myself in another culture’s shoes. And yes, I think Sean Combs could definitely “put on a tie and long sleeved shirt to cover their tattoos and walk into General Electric to submit a job application”, but he doesn’t have to because he already is a very successful businessman (worth $400 million). He also contributes a great deal to the black community, raising $2 million by running in the NY marathon for NYC schools P Diddy in NYC Marathon and:

That, to me, is a much more positive message than what Cosby did and does.

This is hardly exclusive to the black community-materialism is alive and well in all strata of society. Don't get me wrong, I can't stand the slang and the mangling of the English language and I swear, hearing someone say "he axed me something" drives me absolutely nuts. But, when the country's own president butchers the language on a daily basis...????

I concur Daffy Girl that P. Diddy has been a paragon of virtue when it comes to "giving something back" and I hope more young brothers and sisters follow his example.

But when it comes to black philanthropy and support for education, Sean Combs has a long way to go before he catches Bill Cosby:

In 1989, he set a philanthropy record by awarding $20 million to Spelman College, an African-American liberal arts school for women outside Atlanta. The majority of the gift was used for construction of the Camille Olivia Hanks Cosby Academic Center, in honor of his wife of nearly 40 years, who also holds a doctorate in education and continues to support the cause. The remainder funded a Cosby-endowed professorship in the arts.

His educational software, "Bill Cosby's Picture Pages-Early Learning Readiness Series," was named one of the 100 best children's products of 2002 by the San Francisco-based Institute for Childhood Resources.

http://www.aarp.org/Articles/a2003-02-14-billcosby.html

Cosby's philanthropy has benefited many other African American organizations, including the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), the United Negro College Fund, the National Sickle-Cell Foundation, and the National Council of Negro Women.

http://www.africana.com/research/encarta/tt_074.asp

Why are we focusing so much on this one tree in a vast forest. Cosby has done more by himself than most of us all rolled together have. Maybe we all can't give $20 million to a historically black university or college, but there are always schools that need tutors, professionals to come in and speak on Career Day or just donate books for a book drive or buy candy when a kid knocks at the door to buy playground equipment.

This selected outrage is all very well and good, but when over 50 percent of black kids don't graduate from high school, where the hell do they go? Everyone can't work at Wal-Mart or McDonald's. Do you think those kids just drop off the face of the Earth. Oh sure, a lot of them get a job and go back to get a GED, but the rest of them? Maybe they show up one day at that McDonald's with a gun in their hand and no prospects except prison or a sad end in their future.

Cosby broke the code. He said out loud what a lot of people say in private. Maybe he was rude, but he was also right.

I could care less what the knuckleheads at some Communist rag think and mega-dittos to Rush "Oxycontin" Limbaugh when another one of his marriages isn't coming apart. Remember those t-shirts from several years ago that read, It's a black thing. You wouldn't understand.

I think you can understand Daffy Girl. But first we have to be able to speak freely and openly about tough subjects, no matter who feels discomforted.

Time's up. Time to get busy and stop hating on Cosby for telling the truth.

I heard a discussion of this subject on WLS radio in Chicago the last two weekends, on a show called Jennings and Jeffers.

David Jennings and Carl Jeffers are both black journalists and political commentators who have appeared on many of the weekend political "talking head" shows. Both basically agreed with Bill Cosby all the way around.

David Jennings best point, I think, mirrored that of Nighttimers: Whites, Latinos and Asians, for the most part, learn in school what's going to be necessary to get ahead in the world. Math, proper English, science, computer skills, etc. If one of them wants to become a musician, or an athlete, and they make it, fine. If they don't, they always have other skills to fall back on.

However, Jennings said, many (if not most) blacks seem to be in school to hone their football or basketball skills, and to hell with the other classes. Blacks learning proper English, and excelling at math in school, are taught early on, by their peers, that it isn't "cool" to get "educated". Better to be seen as a hood or "gangsta" or just plain dumb, than to be called "acting white", or Uncle Tom. The problem is, when they don't make it in the NFL, or the NBA, they don't have the language or the skills to get anything other than a minimum wage job, if that.

So, was Cosby too harsh? Not at all. As others have pointed out, it's not just black youth in the position of pushing "anti-intellectualism" these days. I think he had a lesson or two for all of us in there.

1. The lower income people should listen to Cosby. Any parent that buys $500 Sneakers instead of $200 for Phonics doesn't have his/her head screwed on correctly.

2. He was dismissive of how society reproduces inequality. He's a millionaire. He has no real concept of the poor.

3. I don't think he was too harsh.