Full Version: US obstructing civilian death counts
Something Artemise posted on another thread that I wanted to adress that would have probably derailed the thread 
http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...?showtopic=6480
on this debate- she posted the allegation that the US ordered the Iraqi Health ministry to not keep count of civilian deaths.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle...sp?story=523991
" . America and Britain have not only declined to count the number of civilians killed, but have obstructed any attempts to discover the total. The Iraqi Health Ministry tried to collect data on deaths several months ago, but was ordered to stop."
I don't have a problem with the military not counting the deaths- but to obstruct anyone from counting civilian deaths, and perhaps even following up to make sure they were killed by the US and not suicide bombers or such- seems downright immoral to me- abhorent even- like they are trying to hide the damage that war does from the world.
Do find this an acceptable practise, or do you think there is more to the folks attempting to collect the data that scares the US- but, do you think it is okay for a verifiable objective source to say how many civilian deaths there were that were the direct result of US action?
http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...?showtopic=6480
on this debate- she posted the allegation that the US ordered the Iraqi Health ministry to not keep count of civilian deaths.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle...sp?story=523991
" . America and Britain have not only declined to count the number of civilians killed, but have obstructed any attempts to discover the total. The Iraqi Health Ministry tried to collect data on deaths several months ago, but was ordered to stop."
I don't have a problem with the military not counting the deaths- but to obstruct anyone from counting civilian deaths, and perhaps even following up to make sure they were killed by the US and not suicide bombers or such- seems downright immoral to me- abhorent even- like they are trying to hide the damage that war does from the world.
Do find this an acceptable practise, or do you think there is more to the folks attempting to collect the data that scares the US- but, do you think it is okay for a verifiable objective source to say how many civilian deaths there were that were the direct result of US action?
Here is the link to the Associated Press article that supports the Independant:
http://www.emjournal.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/aaadec032.html
QUOTE
Iraqis told: Stop counting civilian dead
By Niko Price
Niko Price is correspondent-at-large for The Associated Press.
ASSOCIATED PRESS
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqi Health Ministry officials ordered a halt to a count of civilian casualties from the war and told workers not to release figures already compiled, the head of the ministry's statistics department told The Associated Press on Wednesday.
The health minister, Dr. Khodeir Abbas, denied that he or the U.S.-led occupation authority had anything to do with the order, and said he didn't even know about the survey of deaths, which number in the thousands.
Dr. Nagham Mohsen, the head of the ministry's statistics department, said the order came from the ministry's director of planning, Dr. Nazar Shabandar, who told her it was on behalf of Abbas. She said the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority, which oversees the ministry, didn't like the idea of the count either.
"We have stopped the collection of this information because our minister didn't agree with it," she said, adding: "The CPA doesn't want this to be done."
Abbas, whose secretary said he was out of the country, sent an e-mail denying the charge.
By Niko Price
Niko Price is correspondent-at-large for The Associated Press.
ASSOCIATED PRESS
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqi Health Ministry officials ordered a halt to a count of civilian casualties from the war and told workers not to release figures already compiled, the head of the ministry's statistics department told The Associated Press on Wednesday.
The health minister, Dr. Khodeir Abbas, denied that he or the U.S.-led occupation authority had anything to do with the order, and said he didn't even know about the survey of deaths, which number in the thousands.
Dr. Nagham Mohsen, the head of the ministry's statistics department, said the order came from the ministry's director of planning, Dr. Nazar Shabandar, who told her it was on behalf of Abbas. She said the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority, which oversees the ministry, didn't like the idea of the count either.
"We have stopped the collection of this information because our minister didn't agree with it," she said, adding: "The CPA doesn't want this to be done."
Abbas, whose secretary said he was out of the country, sent an e-mail denying the charge.
http://www.emjournal.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/aaadec032.html
I don't have a problem with the reporting of civilian deaths, as long as it's done objectively, and separated into categories.
IOTW, number of deaths directly due to coalition fire, number of deaths due to terrorist/homicide bombings, number of deaths due to random crime.
If that doesn't happen, it merely becomes fodder for anti-US entities to skew facts in their favor, and it does justice to no one.
IOTW, number of deaths directly due to coalition fire, number of deaths due to terrorist/homicide bombings, number of deaths due to random crime.
If that doesn't happen, it merely becomes fodder for anti-US entities to skew facts in their favor, and it does justice to no one.
For the US to be actively blocking those counts seems reprehensible to me- and counter to trying to establish any kind of US positive sentiment- could you imagine if we had not been able to tally our dead from 9/11? Thier innocent dead easily doubles our own 9/11 dead- even though "we didn't mean it" would ring kind of hollow to me, and not even being allowed to know how many innocents died, wow, seems crazy IMO
The fact is our enemy can use the numbers for propaganda purposes. Free speech don't exist in a war zone.
So instead we use it for our own propaganda? Seems to me like we engage in alot of selective moralism about all these topics that really center around "oh yeah, well, they do it alot worse". Is good vs evil just a matter of degree of bad things?
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 23 2004, 04:13 PM)
So instead we use it for our own propaganda?
Yes, this is a war. Propaganda is a very useful tool in war. Yes, we want to spread pro-American propaganda and facts while suppressing facts and propaganda that favors our foes.
QUOTE(Hugo @ May 23 2004, 06:09 PM)
Free speech don't exist in a war zone.
I thought the war was over?
Seriously though, if the goal of the Iraqi reconstruction is to establish a democracy, and free speech is ESSENTIAL to a democracy, how is this productive?
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ May 23 2004, 07:54 PM)
QUOTE(Hugo @ May 23 2004, 06:09 PM)
Free speech don't exist in a war zone.
I thought the war was over?
Seriously though, if the goal of the Iraqi reconstruction is to establish a democracy, and free speech is ESSENTIAL to a democracy, how is this productive?
In all wars there are curbs on free speech. Certainly all would agree that announcing troop positions, in a time of active battle operations, would be an abuse of free speech. I believe you will find that Tory newspapers were shut down in our own Revolutionary War, yet a semi-democratic society emerged from that war. Similarly in our Civil War both the North and the South put some serious restrictions on free speech.
From this link.
QUOTE
In addition, thousands of opponents of Lincoln’s war policies were arrested and imprisoned for the duration of the conflict, including dozens of newspaper editors and publishers. The writ of habeas corpus was revoked, and mail and press censorship was imposed.
In wars civil liberties are curbed, particularly in civil wars. Little longterm damage was done to the 1st Amendment due to press restrictions in our civil war.Now the 9th and 10th Amendments is another debate.
From the David Letterman files: Is this something?
There seems to be an active debate going on about whether the United States should try to hide the number of dead. IMO the United States should try to keep an accurate count and publish it and publish only credible information with details along the lines of DTOM's suggestions. My reasoning is that because the same opposition to US armed forces that would be enraged by these numbers, would probably enrage others with inflated allegations of greater numbers were such a count not available. (or since such a count is not available)
Now, did the United States order this counting stopped? I don't see a credible allegation here. We already knew that the US was doing a (non-Vietnam) no body count approach to combat. That has changed somewhat in the recent fighting with Sadr's Mahdi forces. The two articles I read that were linked to showed no clear allegation that United States officials made this order. And the CPA accusation was denied by e-mail. Are we the CPA? I don't think so as evidenced by the recent dealings with Chalabi.
I don't think this is something.
There seems to be an active debate going on about whether the United States should try to hide the number of dead. IMO the United States should try to keep an accurate count and publish it and publish only credible information with details along the lines of DTOM's suggestions. My reasoning is that because the same opposition to US armed forces that would be enraged by these numbers, would probably enrage others with inflated allegations of greater numbers were such a count not available. (or since such a count is not available)
Now, did the United States order this counting stopped? I don't see a credible allegation here. We already knew that the US was doing a (non-Vietnam) no body count approach to combat. That has changed somewhat in the recent fighting with Sadr's Mahdi forces. The two articles I read that were linked to showed no clear allegation that United States officials made this order. And the CPA accusation was denied by e-mail. Are we the CPA? I don't think so as evidenced by the recent dealings with Chalabi.
I don't think this is something.
I don't think the US military is obstructing civilian death counts as you are accusing them of doing.
Hugo
Or make up numbers for propaganda purposes
Hugo
QUOTE
The fact is our enemy can use the numbers for propaganda purposes. Free speech don't exist in a war zone.
Or make up numbers for propaganda purposes
From the article Artemise references:
I just fail to see the story here. The CPA did not stop the count, because the count was never started by the Ministry of Health.
The question can be asked: why hasn't the Iraqi Ministry of Health undertaken such an assessment? Abbas answered that for us:
My question for Artemise: how, exactly does the article you linked to "support" the Independent's assertion that it was the CPA that ordered the survey to stop?
QUOTE
"I have no knowledge of a civilian war casualty survey even being started by the Ministry of Health, much less stopping it," he wrote. "The CPA did not direct me to stop any such survey either."
"Plain and simple, this is false information," he added.Despite Abbas' comments, the Health Ministry's civilian death toll count had been reported by news media as early as August, and the count was widely anticipated by human rights organizations. The ministry issued a preliminary figure of 1,764 deaths during the summer.
"Plain and simple, this is false information," he added.Despite Abbas' comments, the Health Ministry's civilian death toll count had been reported by news media as early as August, and the count was widely anticipated by human rights organizations. The ministry issued a preliminary figure of 1,764 deaths during the summer.
I just fail to see the story here. The CPA did not stop the count, because the count was never started by the Ministry of Health.
The question can be asked: why hasn't the Iraqi Ministry of Health undertaken such an assessment? Abbas answered that for us:
QUOTE
Abbas, the minister, suggested such a study wouldn't be feasible.
"It would be almost impossible to conduct such a survey, because hospitals cannot distinguish between deaths that resulted from the coalition's efforts in the war, common crime among Iraqis, or deaths resulting from Saddam's brutal regime," he wrote.
"It would be almost impossible to conduct such a survey, because hospitals cannot distinguish between deaths that resulted from the coalition's efforts in the war, common crime among Iraqis, or deaths resulting from Saddam's brutal regime," he wrote.
My question for Artemise: how, exactly does the article you linked to "support" the Independent's assertion that it was the CPA that ordered the survey to stop?
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