I had a discussion with some European friends visiting from out of town, we are all companions long enough and not too divergent from beliefs to have a civil political discussion

Patriotism became a very interesting topic- and we all agreed that the US concept of it is very unique. We are different in what we are patriotic for- most everywhere in the world, they are patriotic to thier homeland- not the way of life, not the goverment system etc. For instance, a Russian soldier may feel just as strongly the need to defend his nation- but in his mind, he is NOT defending a constitution, or a political system, but the land itself, where his ancestors come from.

Germans feel enormous pride for thier country, what it has gone through, what it has become, what it has accomplished, but they feel no huge sentiment for thier constitution, but once again, more for the country of thier birth.


And then came the interesting observation- there is only one country that could be thought of that had this kind of loyalty to thier society "to thier way of life"- AND THAT WAS FRANCE LOL

So the question is- are we unique in our type of patriotism, and is it a weakness, strenght or a bit of both, please spell it out!

I have a German fried who says that today Germans are patriotic to their “constitution” as we are but you still have the concept of the “fatherland”. Much the same in Russia where they only recently had a form of government that can be thought of as representing ‘the people” in most respects.

In the US we cherish our way of life which is tightly tied to the freedoms granted and protected by our Constitution. Our military swears allegiance not to the President but to our Constitution. The Founding Fathers did well in this regard.

Quite interesting thing is that our country exested on paper first then in relaity.
I.e. Decloration of Independence

Patriotic to one's liberties is a strength.
Although the constitution is not perfect (the founding fathers knew this, so they gave us article V of the constitution), it is the oldest running constitution in the world.

We LOVE our liberties.
We love to bicker at the government and get punished by it.
we love freedom of press.
we love freedom of religion -- speech.

Well, I kind of like our Constitution anyway.

That's a very telling observation, CR. Most other countries have governments that just happened, and the people don't really think of their governments as theirs, just as environmental conditions. In contrast, both France and America have a political system consciously based on their revolutions. France went for an explictly egalitarian democracy and America for a limited constitutional republic, but in both the popular will was considered of prime importance.

In France's case, I'm inclined to think it's something of a weakness, because as I see it the ideas of the French Revolution were severely flawed (see Edmund Burke's Reflections on the Revolution in France, still IMHO the definitive criticism) and so a tendency to hark back to them therefore often results in error.

In our case, I'd say it's more of a strength, since I still consider America's founding principles to be sound.

That does explain why we and the French have such a love/hate relationship though. We're like siblings that quarrel a lot.

Considering how tied we are to each other's revolutions (US and France) I am inclined to agree with Izdaari - we are siblings in many ways- and may be part of the reason for the heated exchanges- has anyone ever seen brothers fight?

I really do think ourselves and France are probably the only nations on this earth that, as a society, has this collective concept of Patriotism.

What we have in America would be more properly termed jingoism, "My country right or wrong", and it is not a good thing.

Grendel- this I would disagree with- blind patriotism is bad, yes, but patriotism based on realization of the countries flaws while also recognizing it is probably the best anywhere anyway, is not unhealthy. Yes, it is my country "right or wrong"- but that doesn't mean I am going to stand idly by and LET it be wrong! LOL

I would consider myself to be intensly patriotic of the US style- it is not nessecarily the land (otherwise, I would be Alaskan first, US second, instead of the other way around) - but a concept of human governance and society of ideals that we strive towards, but seldom live up to!

What I'm talking about is the mentality that wraps everything up in the American flag, that questions the patriotism of people who lost limbs in previous wars because they raise questions about the way the current one is being handled.
I wish I could be patriotic, and if we were the country we claim to be I could, but as it is right now I am ashamed of my country. We are acting like schoolyard bullies on the international stage, we are stripping rights from our citizens. We are not the country that patriots claim us to be.
How can we be claiming to bring democracy to Iraq when our own president was appointed by "activist judges" (to use one of his favorite phrases ).

I believe that there are two types of patriotism - "conscious patriotism" and "mandatory patriotism". I have no doubts in sincerety of patriotic feelings of the majority of people on this forum - because members of that forum, by and large, are intelligent, educated, well-read people who know the history of their country, who know and appreciate the Constitution and everything it provides. However, it seems that for many people "patriotism" is just a mandatory feeling that is nailed down their brains by the system. It starts in elementary school when every morning every kid puts his hand on his chest and starts mumbling: "I pledge Allegiance...." Now don't tell me that 6-7 year old kid knows what the Pledge of Allegiance is about! What's the point of repeating these words day in and day out? It makes the whole ceremony casual and mundane, there's no special feeling, it's almost like lunch - you know what's in your bag, peanut butter/jelly sandwich, there's nothing distinguishable. The only purpose I can see for this daily ritual is future citizen's daily brainwashing. Half of these kids will follow their leader without questioning, as long as the leader will waive the flag in front of them Now, I went to the school in former Soviet Union and we had exactly the same things (class gets together in front of a flag, salutes the flag, and then recites various patriotic slogans). The difference is that this procedure was a weekly event, not a daily event. Maybe that's why Soviet Union lost the Cold War ?

A funny side note: I was discussing this thread with my wife who was born and raised in former Soviet Union, about how Americans and French are proud of the system and the rest of the world are proud of their countries. She didn't agree with that accesment at all and told me that when she was in elementary/middle school she felt terribly sorry for kids growing up in capitalistic societies, forced to work for money while in school, without health insurance, etc. etc. - she felt so sorry that she asked her parents (my future in-laws) whether they can adopt a kid or two from one of the Western countries. So, at least some very-very young Russians were very proud of their way of life.

To Grendel72: I don't think we should be ashamed of our country, but we should be ashamed of our government. I believe there's a big distinction. During the worst times of Mao's regime Chinese people could still take pride in their 1000-year old history and culture. That what makes them a country. Governments come and go... we can only hope that those governments we don't like will go sooner than later

Flag waving, singing stirring songs, listening to Souza marches while watching a parade were all things I enjoyed a great deal until the government started encouraging it in the context of supporting war. I feel the pro-War faction in this country hijacked my flag.

Never mind the fact that this flag has been carried into more battles than I could count. When I was growing up, the flag stood for freedom, goodness, and in a word, HOME. Now when I see a flag I always think about war, and about being considered unpatriotic not to back the actions of the Commander- In-Chief 100%.

I see the signs "Proud to be an American" in red, white, and blue, and I cannot say I share that sentiment. I am grateful to be American for all the good things that it means. This is a great country. But it is being taken in a direction that I feel could ultimately become its downfall. And the sign is symbolic of the hubris that ignores the wisdom of our predecessors who saw war as a last resort.

Just a little question? Didn't all this flag waving, stirring songs, and marches begin in support of a war? Like the War of Independence? I could be wrong, but that's what I have always thought of when I see the flag.

I look at that Flag, and remember ALL who gave their lives for it and for what it represents.


I suggest that everyone visit the following site and listen to the audio of this. It explains much better than I.

http://train.missouri.org/~emgeer/flagpled.html

Patriotism : Love for or Devotion to one’s Country (www.M-W.com)

As CruisingRam has pointed out, we as Americans are unique in that we direct our devotion and sense of patriotism more often than not at our constitution and ideals than we do our actual country. This of course stems from our youth as a nation, and that we have only had one government system, so of course it is ingrained in the identity of the United States.
I think that this gives us a few distinct disadvantages and advantages:
The first could be thought of as both an advantage and a disadvantage, the majority of US citizens are not native to America. This creates a gap in the culture, unlike france or England who are full of people who are all from the same basic culture. We are a nation split by multiple backgrounds fighting to keep their subcultures intact.
This is an incredible thing about America, and one of the things that makes us great is our ability to rally multiple sub-cultures to one flag, and not overtly oppress any one group of people.
The negative this presents is that most of us do not have our “roots” in this land, our history is short here, and though we are proud of it, it does not extend past our democratic system for any substantial time. We are so used to getting our own way by popular vote that most of Americans have never had to learn to love the country for the country, not the system.



English Horn

A sentiment I agree with. And all of us have had to grit our teeth as administrations we don’t agree with have controlled the direction of this country. But regardless of who is in office, I will always be proud to be American, because being American is more than supporting the current war we are fighting, or watching our name being dragged through the mud by some one or other. It is being unified in the fact that we are now native to this place, and it is our home. And what father wouldn’t die to protect their home? What mother wouldn’t keep their home a place of comfort for their children, regardless of the turmoil it is in.

Anyways, my rants done for the day… *steps off soapbox*



Quane

I think Americans can be patriotic about their system because they have only ever had the one.

The British cannot really be proud of our system in and of itself, the way Americans are, because we have changed systems many times but have remained identifiably British to each other and to others outside Britain. The same is true of most other countries around the world, even the French. Only "new" countries like Australia or New Zealand could claim to be like the USA in this respect, but they didn't have a revolution and invent themselves the way America did, they jsut evolved from their colonial roots. This does make the USA unique (note I did not say "better").

So, outside the USA, we have to be patriotic about other things - our languages, cultures, peoples, landscapes, and so on. Again, this is somewhat different to the USA - so many people have lived here in Britain for so long that not one square inch of our landscape is the way it is without the influence of the people that live and have lived here over many millenia.

It's true that American wildernesses are only that way because of a conscious decision to leave them alone, but in Britain, nothing has been left alone. What we call wilderness here now (the Scottish Highlands or Welsh mountains) only got to be the way they are now by someone in the past cutting down trees, or introducing sheep or rabbits. This is true also of the rest of Europe, the near and mid-East, and much of Asia and Africa, but it is not true for much of the USA. The landscape reflects us and we reflect it.

By the way, it seems somewhat arrogant and exceptionalist to think that because other countries express their patriotism in ways other than the one chosen by America, the cannot possibly be patriotic, or at least not as much as America.

But then, you are a country that also seems to think that other people don't express their democracy, or freedom, or economic power, or culture, or any number of other characteristics that America wants to congratulate itself about, in the same way that America does. And that it follows from this that the ways in which other nations express themselves are inferior, and that therefore America must be superior. When in reality, American superiority is the founding assumption, and not the conclusion at all.

The rest of the world doesn't like arrogant exceptionalism any, but it quite used to it, not least because they saw it all before when Britain was the unchallenged global superpower in the 19th and early 20th centuries; and Napoleonic France before that; the Holy Roman Empire before that; Imperial Rome before that; Alexandrian Greece before that, and so on, back into the dim past that every superpower-of-the-moment - up to and including America - refuses to learn from.


thinks for a minute, then adds Of course, it is patently ture that America is objectively better than most other countries at many things. Too often, though, Americans (and everyone else - it's human nature, not an American character flaw) confuse subjective superiority with objective superiority. Many of the things you like most about your country are things other people around the world could have chosen but have decided not to, because their solutions suit them better. I believe an Americanism sums it up best - diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

The fact that you are a Democrat and disagree with a Republican President should not change your view of this country, or our flag and what it stands for. I did not agree with everything Bill did but I never doubted that our system and the people, who administer it, while not perfect, are still the best the world has to offer.


How did you feel when Bill attacked Kosovo and sent in troops? Did you feel the same way you do now? Why?

Julian- I definately think the debate is about to whom we pledge our patriotism TO, rather than the strength or the honor OF the patriotism.

I don't doubt for a minute that my wife doesn't think her country is the greatest at some things, and it would be silly to think that she shouldn't! In fact, the part of patriotism in the US that makes me want to gag is the "America is better at everything, we don't need to try to do what others are doing, because we are obviously doing it better yadda yadda yadda" mindset.

In the medical systems and educational systems we are clearly far far far behind pretty much any developed world, but none of the "America is always better" types can get past that statement to actually agree that there is a problem at all!

This is the weakness in US patriotism to me- this blindness to our weaknesses. I think that this is true in the Iraq debate- even calling into question the reasons of the war is "giving aid and comfort to the enemy". To me, this is slipping out of rational patriotism and pride and into right wing nationalism.

Ted, A more careful examination of my post might reveal that I haven't changed my mind about my country, just the displays that indicate patriotism.

The fact is, I was not a registered Democrat during Kosovo (I just registered as a Democrat this year), and I wasn't particularly against what Clinton did in Kosovo anyway. I could talk about the action in Kosovo here but it would be a tad off-topic, wouldn't it?

This country is mine as much as it belongs to any other American. I do not love it any less than I did as a schoolchild pledging allegiance every morning; if anything, I have a more complex understanding of it which makes my fondness for it richer and deeper.

But I dislike, and at times despise the superficiality of the flag waving when the wavers support pre-emptive war that expended tens of (hundreds of?) billions of dollars, many thousands of lives (I'm talking on all sides), and incurred the animosity of many countries in a misguided attempt to fight terrorism. Did it bring back even one victim of 9/11? Did it prove Saddam Hussein complicit in the 9/11 attacks? No.

I see the flags waving in my community in all states of neglect, some of them merely rags attached to a pole by one corner. They are flown at night with no light on them, the stripes are tearing off from the strong winds we get in this area. This is patriotism? No, it's conformity that got old, and now it doesn't matter to the people who hoisted them there.

When flying the flag represents unnecessary warmongering or simply doing it because everybody else is, rather than join the show, I'm not going to fly it. There's a small Blue Star banner in my window, and that's good enough. I support my son, not the war.

In reading through these posts I must say that I do agree that ours is a different kind of patriotism. It is far different then Russian, French, German and on and on. It may well be because we are a relatively young union, but I think it's more then that.

Look at the globe. With the exception of Mexico and Canada we are a world apart from those countries, yet we cobbled together a large nation filled with a variety of different cultures and somehow survived while others failed. Our hard work created opportunities for all that came, and the numbers of people that STILL want to come here is staggering.

We are so large and so diverse that some areas people are elbow to elbow, yet in other areas you can go a hundred miles and never see another human being. And still, somehow, it appears that we have been able to stay together without making much of a fuss.

This Country while still an infant, learned to feed much of the world, fight and win wars, cure illness, land a man on the moon and still has the grace to help others that needed it. We are nearly always the first to lend a hand when an friend calls on us, and sometimes when an enemy calls on us, and yes, sometimes we feel compelled to wave the flag.

Is the current conflict just? I think so. Did it bring back a single person killed on 9/11? No, but neither did Normandy bring back a single Jew killed in the concentration camps that our troops liberated.

Perhaps only the Greeks & Romans have had a greater influence on World History then the United States!

Perhaps there are a few old flags hanging on poles, but they are a minority of the millions that fly proudly every day. Am I proud to fly mine? Yep, you bet.

This is going to sound wrong, its just one of those things that goes against what we are taught. Patriotism is bad, it doesn't matter what form whether it is our form or Britians form, it is just as bad. To me it is the equivalent of a gang banger loving his/her colors. All patriotism is is a form of brain washing. I admit that it is natural for us to feel territorial like any other creature, but patriotism takes that instinct and expands it to far.

Patriotism serves as a blinder as well. Those things we love or build a relationship with we try not to see in a negative light. It's like when conservatives claim liberals hate America, we don't, we just don't love it. Speaking for myself, I enjoy living in a country like America, I have served America's military, I find it a great place to raise my kids. I would never call it the greatest place in the world, but I will call it better than other places I have been. This doesn't mean it is actually better, it just means it is what I know, therefore I am comfortable with it. But due to the fact I lack patriotism I am able to more clearly acknowledge the downfalls of this country.

Loving a country is silly to me. It is the people that matter. The constitution did not prevent slavery, or segregation. It is a piece of paper. The constitution doesn't stop people or the belief of freedom doesn't stop most Americans from thinking that homosexuals are second class citizens of this country today. People are what is important. The country or the Constitution doesn't stop the wealthy from extending their wealth, percentage wise, but patriotism will kep people from telling them to stop. Our military stop being for defense a long time ago, but Patriotism still keeps us believing that every war we enter into is for a just cause.

When I was younger there were so many death in D.C. and I remember there was thing being said that "It is stupid to kill a man for stepping on your shoe" I remember thinking well it is more to it than that, there is a form of disrespect that transpires as well, probably some escalation, as well. All in all, though, it was true it is stupid to take a human life over stepping on someone's shoe.

While I was in the military, going through my political "awakening", I once
asked myself is dying or killing any more stupider than because I was told to??? Patriotism had done that to me. I'm not a pacifist, every man should be willing to fight for their freedom. But a man must fight for his own freedom. If ever i killed someone in the military, what would be my reason? This is where Patriotism(and good training) comes in. It gives you all the reasons to go kill or die. "You're the good guy!!" "You fight for freedom!!" "For the country!!" But basically the real reason when you take off the rose colored glasses is: you were told to.

Your family is at home, your freedom is at home, that's when bullets probably come whizzing by your head and now you are fighting to survive to see that family. But it was Patriotism, love of country, borders, that made you think it was the right thing to do to join up in the first place.

I may seem to be harping on America too much, but this is because this is where I live. It is just as stupid for men to leave their homeland to come to America to fly planes in buildings, because they were told to.

Now I understand that there is no way for all men to forego this stupidity of Patriotism, so it will always be around, but does the fact that most people want it make it any less stupid. We are all part of this problem, but I challenge anyone to answer how could you ever have a war if you never had patriotism??

Somehow I think we have lost the true sense of patriotism. It has been misappropriated by those who get caught up in the moment following a national catastrophe. Patriotism, post 9-11, has been used by the masses as a tool for mourning, in the form of tattered antennae flags and United We Stand bumper stickers. I don't mean to bash these 'fair weather' patriots, but where were the flags before that day? Unfortunately, both pre 9-11 and now, it is considered unsophisticated to love one's country in elite, cosmopolitan circles.

But my take is this, patriotism is a deep, inner love of one's country. There is no way to force patriotism on anyone. Passing a law will not create it, nor can we buy it through appropriation of government funds. No one can force a person to feel this way, you must embrace it freely.

The true American patriot is an ordinary citizen with the "can do" spirit who still believes in the American dream. It is that spirit that ties us together and unites us into a family of 250 million Americans. It is that spirit which influences individual behavior and which renders in us a sense of personal responsibility, and a duty and loyalty toward a group of people too large to know individually.

Patriotism must be rooted in the individual's own conscience and beliefs.
Patriotism begins at home. Patriots are hard-working, honest, neighborly citizens who, in their own quiet way, recognize their role in the welfare of the nation and its preservation for future generations.
It is through the earnest efforts of ordinary citizens that we strive (at least theoretically) toward the elimination of poverty, discrimination, corruption, greed and other conditions that weaken the promise and potential of America.

Patriotism is loyalty to something larger than oneself, untainted by private purposes or selfish ends. It is a devotion to the best interest of the nation, and, in some cases, it is a sacrifice of personal freedom for the greater good of all our citizens. It is the patriotic spirit which collectively lends confidence in the strength and virtue of America. It is this spirit which enables democracy to prevail in our nation.

For these reasons, I think we are unique, in that our style of patriotism is different than in most other nations. I don't denigrate them for varying beliefs of what 'country' should stand for. I freely admit that I am biased towards being an American and loving my nation for the ideals that it represents.
Patriotism can go awry in the forms of jingoism and nationalism, but so can apathy and indifference.

DTOM- your statement here:

The true American patriot is an ordinary citizen with the "can do" spirit who still believes in the American dream. It is that spirit that ties us together and unites us into a family of 250 million Americans. It is that spirit which influences individual behavior and which renders in us a sense of personal responsibility, and a duty and loyalty toward a group of people too large to know individually.

was the central theme in my debate/discussion with my international friends- and interestingly enough, most agreed that only the French had this mindset!

What you described is loyalty/love/patriotism to "the American dream, they American way of life" etc- NOT the land or country itself (well, that too, but in decending order of belief for us- whereas the "homeland, fatherland, motherland" is the primary source of the patriotism)

Though actually, I think this is also one of the greatest reasons for our success- though we also have rampant corruption in business and politics- it is generally met with some outrage by your average American- where in many countries, it is a thing of "oh, he was stupid and was caught" or "he made the wrong enemy and was caught"- no real moral outrage. I use the example of the Russian police- taking a bribe is part of thier salary there, but really not legal, but here, there is real outrage at the thought of a cop taking a bribe.

We are loyal to our system, even equal to our own needs and wants- as DTOM mentioned "putting the country first" or some such.

We are unique but i do not see as a weakness. It's good to have some patriotic spirit for your country, especially while our troops are fighting for freedom.

Patriotism is a strength. It's good for the spirit of a person and gives individuals pride in their country.

A question raised by personal experience of flag waving:
Is it even possible for anyone other than white heterosexual christian males to be patriotic in this country? From my own personal experience I find it impossible to love a country that makes it clear on a daily basis that it not only doesn't love me but actively hates me.
Does the US flag represent all of us? It doesn't seem so from my perspective.
I do consider myself a humanist, and would place my loyalty to humanity far above that of any nation or cause. To do otherwise makes no sense to me- it invites the predicament of being the "good German" during the third reich.

Does this make sense to anyone other than me?

Grendel72, That's exactly the point of the ideal of the United States (IMO). You don't have to feel patriotic. You don't have to think the flag represents you. And there are no repercussions. You can have the same regard for a guy in Nepal as the guy down your street.
Personally, I feel more connection and compassion for my fellow Americans, as I view them all as somewhat of an extended family, so to speak. And it is the feeling, to me, that since we are Americans, we share the same hardships and tribulations together. Of course, we have a long road ahead in many respects.

What doesn't make sense to me, is the humanist philosophy. I'm not downing it, in a utopian sense it would be appealing. By saying that you place loyalty to humanity above that of a cause, I'm not sure what you mean. To me something along the lines of stopping genocide, tyranny and terrorism are causes worth fighting for. And in those cases it may be necessary to place one nation in conflict with another. This all may be fodder for a new thread, apologies if I digressed.


I know a fair amount of non-whites who are more fervent in their patriotism than I. So I would say emphatically, YES. I don't know their religion off the top of my head, not that I think it matters.

My feelings for my country, Britain, come down to two things. Firstly, I love it because it's my home. Whenever I go abroad, and however much I enjoy myself there, it's always a fantastic feeling to come back. People do things the way I'm used to. Life works to my rhythm. Abroad is an adventure, but here I feel I can relax. Secondly, I'm proud of a lot of things that we've done in the past. I'm proud of our consistently moderate political history, at least since 1688, and the way that we had the good sense never to let fascism or communism, or extremism of any kind, play a significant role in our political scene. I'm proud that we abolished the slave trade in 1807. I'm proud of all the things that the British invented, like telephones, TVs, the theory of evolution, laissez-faire economics and so on. But I would never say, even for a moment, that Britain has any merit simply because it is Britain. If it has merit, it has merit for what it has done and what it continues to do. Likewise I don't exempt my country from the kind of criticisms that I would level at any other country. I think we were the first country to gas the Kurds. I don't try to excuse that.

Americans, as has been said, like to look to their constitution as a source of pride, and I think that is fair enough, because it is a fantastic document. However, this thread has made me think of chats that I have had with Americans on other boards on the subject of Israel. I often hear the argument put forward that Israel ought to be supported 100% against the Arabs because it is a democracy. As far as international affairs go I believe that is irrelevant. It isn't what it is, but what it does that matters as far as I am concerned. I just wonder if perhaps the tendency to look to the constitution leads to a tendency to value systems rather than actions?

See, I would consider genocide and terrorism to be offenses against humanity, while Tyranny seems to me to be a failing of patriotism. Patriotism gives the state power over us.
I'll try to explain in terms of military service: I would be proud to sign up for military service in a war that was justified by humanitarian means, I would not want to put my life on the line for empire building. It's not about my country, it's about the greater good.
Like I say, maybe it is a failing of mine. When I see "pro-America rallies" it seems to be a vast sea of white men- if you've ever gone to a gun show you know that self styled "patriots" stand side by side with Christian Identity hate groups. Logically I know it is unfair to judge all who call themselves patriots by that, but patriotism is not logical but emotional.
When I see the President of the United States vow to write discrimination against people like me into the constitution, I find it impossible to love my country.

But you definitely gotta love the SYSTEM that our predecessors have set up, whereby the most powerful white Christian man in the nation can stand up and propose blatant discrimination against a minority group be written into the most powerful document in the land, and yet he has a nearly impossible task to make that proposal a reality. Gotta love that!

On my small street, half the houses have flags waving out front for Memorial Day and half do not. Gotta love the SYSTEM that lets us have that choice.

I think our brand of "love of country" is a bit unique in that we are really loving our style of government that was set up over 200 years ago. We are proud that our country has been able to sustain this form of government for as long as it has. I don't see it as "nationalism" -- love of country -- as much as a love for the freedoms we hold dear and strive to protect.

We've had to really work hard to protect out freedoms over the past 200+ years and that gives us an ownership in them. Think of it as the pride a parent has in a child.

Does that make any sense?

Though I definately understand Grendals point of view- how can you love a country that actively discriminates against you, professes hate for you, and condones violence and death against you (just saw a "death to fags" bumper sticker 20 minutes ago- what morons!) however- it is the ideal that- even grendal, against the majority of the ignorant that wish to do him harm, our system can still be counted on to keep fighting to make it right- I think AMF is going along the same lines- our forefathers wanted white heteros to rule the country, but the system kept them from seeing that a reality. The Christian right wants to put Grendal in a concentration camp or worse, but eventually our own system will beat them- so I feel pretty strong pride when I think of our system being able to beat the ignorant masses and attempt to give greater freedom to all despite the best intentions of bad poeple!

I belive we even helped our enemies fight off worse enemies....
From what I gather the U.S. wants to help people who hate the U.S.

To me that is honorable.

If your enemy is hungry give him food; if he is thirsty give him a drink.....

Our founders new what they were doing to an extent in letting the factions play on each other in a civil manor so that the good of the whole could be acomplished.

In the movie The Day After Tomarrow, three british scientists are on the brink of the freeze and are running out of propane. One finds a bottle of Scotch on a bookshelf and says, " do you think it will run on this?" The elder looks at him and says, " Are you mad, thats 20 year old Scotch". He moves some books and finds three glasses and they pour. One says," To England", another "to the Queen" and the last, " to Manchester United". (soccer team)

This is a good example of how Patriotism is different for different people.

I think love of country is natural. I do think americans are different from most in that their love is of a way of life, not the very land, in a way its that they have been afforded a great standard of living in comparison to many countries and in a way its the indoctrination since childhood that they are free. While we have been free in comparison to many third world tyrannies, america in comparison to first world nations is not particularily more free or less, but its a commonly held belief that only here is one truly free.

American patriotism is different in that in most nations around the world you do not see flags all over the place, like at malls and on peoples houses. Our patriotism is greater in that extent. We sure do like our flag. The other is that here we are always talking about dying for freedom, its important to die for freedom...we need to be grateful for those who died for freedom. I hear this nowhere else, free countries included. Its obsessive this dying for freedom thing, continually touted in every war, every year. Looked at from outside the fishbowl, its a peculiar american syndrome.

The French have in common with us that they fought for freedom and democracy and overthrew Monarchic oppression, and they helped us do it too, right around the same time. The French motto is Liberte, Egualite, Fraternite. They believe as well as we in a free society, and certainely in the freedom of the press and to speak ones mind which they do to an extent for which we are once removed.
The French do not support their government with a blank pass in the name of free France. They, like we, believe that the people have power, but they more often wield this power in nation wide strikes, civil disobedience and protest. Plus, they talk to each other, in every cafe, restaruant, bar, in the plazas, on the street...they are political as a way of life. As well, the common person is informed about the rest of the world, I suppose because of the abandonned French colonies. They are very attuned to Africa, and always watchdogs on America. They dont like capitalism or imperialism, with good reasons considering their history.The french live pretty well, for their value system.

In places around the world where people are going through the most incredible hardships you can hear them say, I love my country, I would never want to be anywhere else but here, I only hope for...( a change in government, a chance at an education, and end to war. etc. ) This is a love of the actual earth they were born on and will endure any hardship for it.

The Irish love their land, its their land, they dont sell out to the highest bidder to build a vacation complex or take well to foreigners buying up their country. This is love of the land above money. An admirable trait.

The Spanish love their land and people and the government is a necessary inconveinience, the Italians are similar. Somewhat apathetic, yet, both countries turned out millions against the Iraq war, and Spain overturned an election based on it. A different outlook on patriotism. They in free democracies made their voices known, and heard as well.

I believe some Americans like myself are really in love with the Constitution, and all the meaning behind the Revolution, The Federalist papers and that. I believe the Constitution and subsequent idea of government to be one of the most amazingly well thought out documents and ideology on the planet still today. Ahead of their time those blokes were. They were self critisizing, had carefully analysed how all governments will move towards oppression and tyranny, and forewarned us of public apathy and blind trust. They gave power to the people and trusted them to keep it. We are having a bit of a problem holding onto it, as they said we would if we got lazy.

Blind patriotism is not a good thing. Our Constitution only grants us that which we should fight to hold onto for ourselves.
It does not give us a right to arrogance or inherant superiority, nor a right to oppress, nor cause pain and suffering to others over this still young experiment. Any of us might hav had the misfortune to be born in lesser circumnstances.
Freedom and democracy should not become tyranical over others or it is not worthy of its birthright. It cannot be forced and wars should not be waged to spread it or it loses all meaning. We should be humble in our good fortune and respect others rights to their own evolution. Its a "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." There is NO Right because we (patriotically) believe in our system to impose it by force on others. Historically I could write pages here on why not, but suffice to say, there is no prescendence that it works.

We are in these days as well a people on an ever increasingly smaller planet. I am less inclined to be a nationalist as a humanitarianist, and the us vs. them scenario is proving more detrimental as time goes on. Large parts of the planet are suffering while a small part uses up the planets resources and wages wars on simple and micro-terms, not looking at our future as a whole and ignoring real problems. This is where in my mind patriotism goes awry.

I do love the land of america, the vast expanse of land we have put aside for public use, the natives, our history. I wish we would look more internally in our patriotism and not think we have the solution to the worlds ills by war. We are not equipped intellectually or culturally for this job. Its wrongful intent.



What does it represent in all this giving our lives and continually having to die for it, so many dead? You are right, the flag is beginning to represent a whole lot of dead people all over the place. I think the Founders probably envisioned this to be a one or two time deal.
Am I the only one that thinks this is kind of bizarre, that dying for freedom all the time is wierd? Its sort of an oxymoron. It strikes me as a brainwashed repeated circular rhetoric and not much more, at least in the last 60 years.
In my life in america there have been wars every few years since I was born. Its always for alleged freedom. I lived in Spain for nine years and noone in Europe was dying for freedom or anything else, while you all were still dying for it, hey, and guess what? We were free, even more so. Canadians dont die for freedom either, nor Mexico or a bunch of others. Its basically 'patriotic ' America who worships this dying thing. So , I think, go on with your bad self, die if you want to if thats your gig. Keep killing too.
We shall see how 'patriotic' we all are when our standard of living goes into the toilet, since thats why most are patriotic in the first place. Its a good study in why all the great powers decayed and lost their status.

*Ahem* Tell me again, what's is the name of the language you just typed? Which nationality "invented" industry and the liberal and libertarian ideas on which your Constitution and economy are founded?

Who gave American dominance a head start by creating history's largest ever Empire, which was mostly based on free trade (within itself, at least), military power, and a common language - British English?

Clearly, it must have been Greeks or Romans, since only they have had a greater influence on World History than the United States....

Julian- this is kind of the point I was trying to make with the start of the thread in the first place- the ignoring of all history to place our nation so high on a pedestal that it is quite easy to knock down!

I am a patriot, I believe our country is one of the greatest on earth, ever, however, we have some serious flaws to work on or we may suffer the fate of the Romans and Greeks, instead of the more honorable country that Britain has become over time.

Pardon me if I make a slight correction while white men are vying for ground here.
Our Consitution was greatly based on the native Iroquois nation of six, originally five the oldest living participatory democracy on earth having been practiced for 800 years. At the time when Europe was under oppressive monarchies, correct? Wasnt this the reason for the American Revolution and the French Revolution as well? ...while the Declaration of Independance and the Constitution were well in the works. Britain was not an example for the American form of governing.

I will give you the invention of industry, but then of course we must attribute much of science, astronomy, medicine and architecture to Arabs and the Middle East.

So, I will agree, that the quote on Romans and Greeks in comparison to the US is a highly mistaken asessment of world history. It skips over a lot. As well not much interest is payed in these discussions that the Greek, Roman, Ottoman, French, Spanish , British empires are all fallen, a mere wisp of what they once were...but the American contribution has not nearly held up to many of these in great achievements as world dominant.
I do wonder what the poster means by 'influence'. That coca-cola is a world wide product, that they get MTV and pop culture intravenously and everyone wears jeans and hopes to get rich or something deeper? I'd love to know what our historical influence is- has been.

If you were asked to think of one country on the spot, with no delay, when given the word 'patriotism', what would you think of?

If you were a strong patriot, would you think of your own country? I wouldn't, if given that word the very first country I would think of would be the United States. if asked to think of another.....well......I'll get back to you on that!

In this respect, I would say American patriotism is certainly different to what I experience on a daily basis. The French have been mentioned, and I would probably agree with that - most French people I have known online and in real life have come across as being quite patriotic. Second place perhaps, but not a close second by any stretch of the imagination in my opinion.

This is probably something I pick up on because patriotism is a concept I'm not overly familiar with. Do I love my country? Well which one, I sort of have two...and you never can tell these days, what about the EU? I seem to live in a Russian doll as far as being a citizen is concerned, a European British Scot. Which flag should I have on my bumper then?

But yes, I am patriotic. In a sports sense...no actually, maybe not. I tend to make a mockery of our miserable sporting 'heroes' more than I back them

This was actually something I was thinking of not too long ago, when I noticed an American chum at university had no fewer than 8 different manifestations of the Stars and Stripes on him that day; including on his bag, keyring, phone, socks and t-shirt. I then searched for any examples of my own. I found an odd sock at the bottom of my washing basket with the Saltire on it, and the Union Jack on my Capital One credit card, the latter being chosen because it was either that or a daffodil.

On the other hand, my handle here does include my country (although that was chosen at the time because I thought there would be a very small international community here and wanted to highlight the fact that I was an alien!) and I'll support my countries if I think they need defended. What is lost on me is the added oomph, as it were, that only seems to be present in patriotism displayed by Americans. It almost seems at times that American patriots have just found God, there is no other way to explain the joy it seems to give them. That isn't a criticism, it is very admirable to display your belief in something you think is good, and I am probably referiing to the most eccentric and streotypical US patriots there. But my lack of patriotism isn't a lack of faith in my country, more in mankind as a whole.

So yes, from my perspective the average American has a very different approach to patriotism than the average person from any other country in the world. The only people who would be on the same level of love for Scotland that I have seen are of the type who are still upset at the 1966 FIFA World Cup and (perhaps more astonishingly) the death of William Wallace. From a British POV you have people like Jeremy Clarkson, a TV automobile journalist who seems to hate everyone who doesn't live within a 15 mile radius of his place of birth. In other words, people with mental health issues.

Its just all different I guess. But it will change, things change much quicker than you would think. 100 years ago I'm sure I'd be a very keen British patriot, and 100 years from now who knows what position the USA will have in the world? I am not keen on the idea of patriotism beyond supporting a sports team, its just too depressing a concept for me personally. Who was it that said 'patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel'?

I personally think it is our patriotism that makes us great. All things American are good, despite our internal differences, but it is our patriotism that makes us above the bar, for lack of a better term. We have proven our ability to bond together and our respect to split apart, but both choices are Americans being patriots. Patriotism is about pride, and service, and commitment, how can any of those things be anything but admirable qualities?

Just an interesting side note: when there's something positive to be proud and patriotic about the people tend to associate themselves with that ("it's our Constitution"; "I am proud to be an American", etc. ) However, when there's a collective guilt to be shared, the very same people are quick to point out that that they have nothing to do with that, it's just the perpetrators, etc. Take a look at any thread about Abu Ghraib prison scandal and see how many people strongly reject any notion that they should bear any hint of collective responsibility.
Well, if there's no collective responsibility for the deeds of a few, why people should be proud of something they either got as a birthright (e.g. "to be an American"), or they had nothing to do with (e.g. the Constitution)?