I have had very interesting conversations with Russians that lived through Stalin, Breschnev, Andropov, Kruschev, etc etc. One of the things I have heard that is a common denominotor was "I am asked by many americans, 'what was it like living behind the Iron Curtian", and I always tell them, we didn't live behind Iron curtain, you lived behind it, we were in front of it" LOL- So much we have heard about that country is so patently false, it is surreal. From the impact Ronald Reagan had on the cold war to personal freedom under the "communists" is completely wrong.

For instance- one little thing that really *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** off all the Russians I know- the fact you have to carry your ID everywhere with you. Even in Stalin's time, you didn't have to have personal papers!

So my question is- what do you think it was like under the old soviet rule, and how did you come by that information? Do you think that the information you recieved was pure propaganda? If not, how did you verify that it was/was not?

I had a similar discussion with my coworkers a few weeks ago. It's amazing how many small misconceptions about life in the former Soviet Union they have. I think that I baffled my coworkers when I said that I had a very happy childhood. One of misconceptions was that in SU you will go to prison camp for going to church. Now, let me start by saying that, first of all, I was born in early 70s, so I did not live through the worst times (Stalin's regime), but applied to post-Stalin's times this statement is completely untrue. After WWII there was a significant reconsiliation between Russian Orthodox Church and the State, and persecution of religiosity stopped. That said, a kid who goes to church would probably get pretty rough treatment at school (similar to the treatment an openly atheist kid would get in American school), but nobody would go to jail for his religious beliefs.
Also I surprized my coworkers when I mentioned all the various american movies from the 70s and 80s that I saw while in Soviet Union ("The Sting" was one of my favories... "Three days of Condor"... "Tootsie" was a huge hit... etc. etc.) They were sure that the clampdown was so severe that the only entertainment Russians were getting were endless re-runs of "Swan Lake" ballet on state-run TV. In reality, cultural life was booming: dozens of movies were produced each year, some of them so good that they have a cult status to that day; many western books were translated and published; because TV programming was sparse and boring for the most part, people were reading a lot (for a while there was a slogan that "Russia is the nation that reads the most!"); etc.
In general, there was a lot of propaganda on both sides, some of it was true, some of it was not. What I found is that Americans have a lot more trust invested in their government and as a result they tend to believe things they are told. On the other side, many Russians had deep distrust of the government and government-controlled media; as a result, they were greeting with scepticism most of the propaganda, even the bits and pieces that were true. I personally was amazed to find out that yes, it's true, every American citizen is assigned a number and has a "personal dossier" of sorts where all the information about the citizen is being collected; I was surprized to find out that it's true that governement in US prohibits it's citizens from visiting certain countries (of course the spin back in USSR was that American government doesn't let its citizens to go to Cuba because they didn't want them to see the achievements of socialism), etc. I totally dismissed that in Russia because I was sure that it was pure propaganda. Now, on the Russian side, things that are true would be

• housing shortage; many families were forced to share an apartment
• only a small percentage of population was able to afford to own a car
• travel abroad was severily restricted
• while there never was shortage of food, some items were very hard to get (sometimes black market was the only way), etc.

I thought that every woman in the Soviet Union looked like a toothless old hag standing in a breadline. Every picture of a Russian woman you'd see would look like no one owned a toothbrush, or bar of soap in the entire country. I guess that was to keep western men from knowing it was actually the land of models...which we all found out once the iron curtain fell.

Read an article about propaganda some time back. Seems the word did not have a negative connotation until governments started using it to control or influence their image with respect to the rest of the world. It was fine when we were using its various methods to advertise our commercial products.
I think the message of the toothless old women, breadlines, etc. was to let us know how well we have it here in comparison. But if you look closely, you will find people, places, and situations in parts of the USA that were identical. Certainly during our economic depression it would have been easy to find the same types of photographic opportunities.
I suppose if one picture is worth a thousand words, then one picture could also be worth a thousand lies.

Are you kidding, Bill? No way! Everyone knows that even in the deep south, all of our women looked like Daisy Duke or Daisy Mae

I also thought that all of the men were android-like, and no one ever joked or smiled.

I sailed with a bunch of Soviets from Murmansk , a fish canning town that still used old square sail ships as fishers. It was not pretty, but then so much is not in the Northern Seas. This was the Columbus Regatta of 1992.

This was after 'the fall' but they still lived afraid, of black books and the old regime style of life. I taught the young sailors some english and I learnt some russian, very difficult, since russians conjugate everything, pronouns, verbs and nouns.

They believed america had everything, but I knew this was false. Some jumped ship in NY, they were pressuring me to teach them english fast as we crossed the Atlantic.

I was the only american on the ship, we were 40 foreigners to a few hundred Russians, it was the largest square sailor in the Russian Fleet the Sedov The Germans treated the Russians like refugees on their own ship, taking pity on them, and taking collections to buy them Pepsi's, it was disgusting. The germans hated me, because I refused to buy Pepsi's and instead shared my fruit and chocolate and worked alongside the russians in day to day stuff, I had no money anyway, I had borrowed even to make the trip.

I always knew, what I still know deep in my soul and what must be remembered and not forgotten, is that this hatred, and animosity and cruelty, is not the people of a nation, its only the leaders who take you there. Because of a few we will kill many, because we are stupid, on all sides. But we as people dont want to kill each other. We are all the same. We want the same things.

That Russian journey let me know, again, politicians are full of EDITED TO REMOVE ATTEMPT TO BYPASS PROFANITY FILTER. They always have been, always will be.

This thread is a breath of fresh air for me. I am a Modern Historian, who has worked a great deal on the former USSR. I have spent a lot of time, on this forum and on others trying to convince people that most of what they think they know about life in the USSR is fiction.

What astonishes me is the number of Americans who refuse to believe me or even discuss it. Its not like I am trying to present the USSR as some kind of worker's paradise, obviously it was not, and suffered from many sirious systemic problems. But it was not the place Cold War propaganda made it out to be either.

Yet even now, 15 years after the end of the cold war, there are many who refuse to believe that their government would have engaged in 'propaganda' and that therefore their versions of what things must have been like in the USSR are reality.


EDIT: rereading this post, it sounds like a poke at Americans, it is not. Most Americans accept or know the reality of US Cold War propaganda. But there are some, mostly far-rightist types, who cannot accept reality like this...

One of the most interesting things to me is the absence of the American-as-villian movies in Russia, where in America- every darn movie for years the Russians were the "bad guys". I have watched a great deal of Russian movies and have yet to see bad treatment of the US goverment or it's poeple!

I don't know whether it's true or not; I personally can not remember anything like "Rambo", but these types of movies I don't like anyway.
I guess the official ideology was that "we don't have beef with the people of USA, it's the government and military circles, etc." People like Samantha Smith (or another link here) were used as an example how brainwashed Americans are and that real Americans don't want war. Make no mistake, there were plenty of propaganda... it's just much of it was greeted with scepticism.

This is a very interesting thread.

I admit to buying wholesale the propaganda of the US on the USSR. I was rather young at the time, but I was very proud of this country and "patriotic" (which meant that the US rarely , if ever, could have been capable of anything bad) in my childhood and teens.

In college when I started to learn a bit of real history, I found things were much different and I started to question my loyalty. Most anyone can say now that I'm very skeptical of anything said by majority of those in the government in this country.

That being said, I still had those propagandistic visions of the USSR when I opened this thread. I hadn't done a lot of looking into how things really were there. Thanks for posting some good info, CR and EH.

It's definitely something to keep in mind when our government starts to demonize someone or trying to get us to support a conflict against an enemy <cough> .

Very interesting thread CR, I'll look forward to reading more of it.

Personally, most of my perceptions of the Soviet Union growing up came in the form of movies from Hollywood (I am a lot younger than many of you). Plenty of James Bond type spy movies, War Games, Rocky IV, Spies like Us to name a few.

I thought that you were either a politician (and rich), a soldier or member of the KGB or a poor person standing in line for bread and working in a shoe factory. On the basis of those movies, I'll have to say that many people in my generation grew up with a very biased view of the USSR.

I now know that much of what the government (and Hollywood for that matter) told us was patently false.

I dont want to be offtopic but I think this is important...you all know weve been being anti-arabized for some time in the very same way...right? So if it was wrong then with the Soviets, what about now?

Interesting thread, and responses. Without any actual experiences, I do remember feeling during the Cold War that, as Artemise states, basically all people are the same, with same wants and desires. I didn't have specific impressions of day-to-day life in the SU, other than the bread lines and cramped housing. I had heard of the religious revival (Russian Orthodoxy was. after all, one of the last remaining bastions of Christianity for quite some time, after the fall of Constantinople). I also remember wondering just exactly what the typical Russian felt during that time about us--since clearly we were being fed much propoganda about them, and it seemed safe to assume that, if anything, the Russian media was even more controlling. In general, I've always felt that if you got people from various cultures together, though, as Artemise states, that they would tend to get along--its their leaders who have to posture.

In my family, America was always viewed in a good light, thanks to a warm coat donated by some American family during WW2 and given to my grandma.

Main things that I was afraid of when my family was moving to the US was medicine was not free and unemployment in the rotten capitalist America, which was exaggerated by Soviet propaganda.

I've been living in the States for fifteen years and one thing that still amazes me the ability to move freely and live anywere you want without any permission from any gov. official.

Also freedom to discuss anything without fear of prosecution. We had something like that in USSR too, it was called "kitchen talk" and where you could talk anything but it was only done with trusted friends and family. Not exactly freedom of speech like here.

I'm lucky that I've had an opportunity to live in the USSR and US and see what was lie and what was the truth.

I grew up in the shadow the nuclear holocaust. First in Britain and then later in Denmark.
When I was 12 I watched the peace protestors being dragged away from the gates at Greenham common and I wondered at why such apparently ordinary people were being dragged away by the Police. In school we read 'Animal Farm' and '1984' and at home I watched the American F111's taking off to bomb Libya.

For me, the Soviet Union was a vague background menace. About as realistic as a Dragon or a Troll. Distant and remote, it was the ever present shadow that loomed in the back ground.

Every so often it would be mentioned on the news. The first of May parades or the latest old Soviet hero to die and be replaced. But it was never a factor in how I grew to perceive life. Every day of my childhood, RAF Tornado's would fly over our house, and I'd cheer them on. Great angels of death in the skies above. Protecting us from the Germans and the Russians.

When I moved to Denmark at the age of 16. I met a different reality. here was a nation which had been annexed by the nazi's, which had suffered the humiliation of being over run by the Wehrmacht. Here the Soviet menace was regarded with far colder eyes. Here there were no peace demonstrators on the TV. Instead there were images of Soviet warships patrolling the Baltic.

When demonstrators did protest against American nukes it was usually Greenpeace protestors from holland, Sweden ad Britain, come to chase about the bows of destroyers in their little rubber boats. With age I grew to look upon such frivolity without sympathy. Gradually I became a soldier. In 1988 I travelled in Poland and saw the dirt and poverty and I saw Auschwitz. In 1989 I joined the military.

When the Berlin wall fell, I was still training to fight against an invasion that was never coming. I watched events unfold with a strange sense of distance. I felt almost disappointed that I was going to be cheated of my chance to kill the enemy.

I served four years, but eventually life caught up with me and I put aside such childish thoughts of war. I finally realised why soldiers are drafted at eighteen.

I met my first Russian when I was twenty two. He was an immigrant, travelling west looking for a better life. I only knew him briefly but he was a happy fellow. Glad to share what little he had. Laughing and wry. A twinkle in his eye. This was the man I'd trained to kill.

Its been fifteen years since the shadow of the Soviet Bear evaporated from my life and during those fifteen years I've grown older and seen more than I ever realised back then. I can see now why those middle aged women were demonstrating at Greenham common. I'm not sure if I agree with them, but I certainly empathise. Its been fifteen years since the fall of the Soviets and the US military is still camped in Europe.

Was it all a lie? Did we ever understand the Russians and the Ukrainians? Did those people ever live in the grey Soviet concrete world of '1984', did they really hate us?

I don't know any more. Perhaps like the citizens of Baghdad they're just sick of the whole thing.

Artemise is right. People are just people. They're not murdering hordes of rabid enemies just waiting to slaughter us at the first chance. Its the leaders who are responsible for all this mess of blood and anger. All of them.

We should never vote for those who are willing to send other people to their deaths.

One of my friends from Norway studied Russian history in the mid nineties. He later returned their and married his wife there. He once told me that the Russians were the most peaceful people he'd ever met. We were in London at the time and complaining about the Brits as foreigners are wont to. Days later he showed me a photograph of his grandfather and several Russian sailors from the second world war.

Allies.

One thing about America that is different in just about every other country in the world- and that is the average size of ourliving space. Russian apartments are cramped, for sure, my Babulya and Dadulya there live in WW2 era "flat" (that, by the way, they own) but not uncozy. Even in western society such as Europe, I think alot of living space is considered rather extravagent. Also, you have more extended family living with you in almost any other country- which has it's ups and downs LOL

I tell you one thing, for all our "Christian nation family values"- Russian families are alot closer and held together better in Russia. Devotion to family there makes it look like we abandon our young here LOL.

There is a cross over talk here on this subject when it comes to patriotism and propaganda, and I think I will post about it here:

http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...=0&#entry104208

I think one of the true problems in Soviet culture and it's inability to rise to it's full potential is corruption in business and politics. I think this goes back to who most throw thier loyalties to- and they are not patriotic to thier goverment- and certainly don't view it with much pride- though they love thier country and thier homeland and thier culture. So the loyalty to family and friends and that's all, they are always trying the unethical way out instead of business above board- this system predates communism and is part of the russian Culture back to the Bolyars and Ivan the Terrible.

I think the corruption in goverment and business there is probably the only true thing I ever heard about Russia.

I agree 100 percent. I think Russia can (and eventually will) achieve the status of the superpower it once had (and I believe it would be better for the world to have two superpowers on friendly terms balancing each other); however, to achieve that, the rampant corruption must be stopped.
I wonder though, which way the country will go from now on: will it follow the United States and try to become as pure capitalist society as possible (maximum personal responsibility, minimum social protection, etc.) or it will follow Western Europe and Scandinavian states in particular and will become a sort of mix between capitalism and a "good breed of socialism"?

P.S. Now, I remember another misconception about Russia: it's not THAT cold! I come from St. Petersburg which is on the same latitude as Greenland - and yet for the most part temperatures rarely go below 15-20 F in the winter and quite often go into higher 70s - lower 80s during the summer. I think in general the climate in the part I come from is reminiscent of Maine.

I found series of articles on the topic; if interested, you can find them all here:

• Russian "Banya"
• Russian Families
• The ritual of Vodka
• Anti-Propaganda primer
• Russian Cuisine

Allow me to post one of the articles here. I was overjoyed to find that her impressions were identical to my own:



Full article here.

P.S. The lady who wrote the article seem to see things in rather positive way ("glass half-full" kind of person)... but the basic facts are all true.


Edited to conform cited portions to forum Rules

I have not found a single Russian in Russia that I have met that would not say that article was 100% true. When my wife is frustrated sometimes, especially paying medical bills, always says "If we get sick, we have to move back to Russia. Wow, what an indictment of our medical system!
'
My grandfather in law worked on Nucleur submarines under stalin, Krushev and Breshnev. The only goverment intrusion into his life was his ban on travel to other countries due to his techno knowledge.

Stalin was a monster now, and executed 80% of my mother in laws family, mostly for being Jewish. But after Stalin, for them, they considered it quite a comfortable life.

I am trying to grab the feeling running through this thread. It is extremely interesting to get Russian or former-Soviet perspectives of this. I think we were exposed to more government rhetoric about the Soviet Union and the threat of communist totalitariansim then we were propagandized. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I don't ever remember being taught or talked to about evil Russian people. It was always communism and the threat of fifth column infiltration.

Sure we had misconceptions and all too simplistic views about life behind the iron curtain, but this was because it was a closed system to us and much of our knowledge was imaginary.

What we did see was the public face of the Soviet government which used rhetoric and propaganda about the United States.

I was never taught of any major carnage perpetrated by the Soviet government after Stalin, but it seemed that the United States defined itself as a morally superior entity than the Soviet Union and for people like me who grew up with the Cold War, it is hard the remember that the Cold War no longer exists. It is truly such a different world.

As for the anti-Arab lense. I think our conversational/bar talk culture has become increasingly hostile toward the arab/ Muslim (not much distinction made) world.

The general sentiment seems to be, "these people have been killing themselves from the dawn of time and why not just let them have at it."

Uniquely and totally opposite to the Soviet Union, the United States has always defined its foreign policy through idealism. (City upon a hill, noble experiment, shining example for the world, manifest destiny, war to end all war, defender of democracy, free world versus communism, war on terrorism)

It sounds like Russia was paradise on Earth. What was Yeltsin and Walesa complaining about? Please explain to me. Why did the Soviet Union collapse? I can't figure it out.

You obviously missed the part about corruption in goverment and business I suppose Hugo?

It seems like 90% of the comments state the advantages Russian life has over the USA, you all did throw in a couple negatives. Fair and balanced, I guess.

[QUOTE] think one of the true problems in Soviet culture and it's inability to rise to it's full potential is corruption in business and politics. I think this goes back to who most throw thier loyalties to- and they are not patriotic to thier goverment- and certainly don't view it with much pride- though they love thier country and thier homeland and thier culture. So the loyalty to family and friends and that's all, they are always trying the unethical way out instead of business above board- this system predates communism and is part of the russian Culture back to the Bolyars and Ivan the Terrible.

Probably because feudalism, like communism, does not really reward intelligence and initiative.

Noone says it was a paradise. In my very first post on that forum I mentioned many things: housing shortage, corruption, travel restricitions, deficits, etc. However, the point of this thread is to remove some of the misconceptions that many Americans have about Soviet Union, that it was some kind of gloomy, propaganda-driven impoverished country, akin to modern day North Korea. It was not, at least during 70s and 80s.
As for collapse... the opinion of majority of Russians is that the Soviet Union would stand for much, much longer if not for Gorbachev (who is, by the way, remains highly unpopular figure there since collapse of the system brought misery to the lives of millions of people).

You are right about Gorbachev. Giving people a little freedom is quite dangerous. They tend to want more after getting a taste of it. Gorbachev unleashed some forces he could not control.

What he did was that he destroyed the system which, however bad, provided security net for millions and millions of people dependent on it - without giving anything in return. It's very easy to destroy, much harder to build. Look, my own family has nothing to complaint about - my uncle owns a local phone company, my uncle-in-law owns a factory.... but I know that life remains hard for senior citizens, single parents, etc. - all those people that worked all their lives for the system that was destroyed just when they were about to reap the benefits of it. If not for historically very close-knit families, some of these people would be out on the streets. Who can blame them for hating the person who initiated that collapse?

Didn't Yeltsin have a hand in this? Didn't the population of the Soviet Union have a hand in this? Clearly you cannot go from government owning the means of production to capitalism overnight. I think Gorbachev understood that, Yeltsin and others did not.

In my previous post I expressed the feelings of majority of Russians towards Gorbachev, not my own. I respect the man for what he did, even though the results greatly exceeded his intentions. I benefited from the collapse of Soviet Union, and my family benefited, too. Many families didn't, though... and despite my personal gains I see how the collapse of USSR brought havoc into their lives.
This thread is not about causes for collapse of Soviet Union... it's about Soviet Union itself. Look, the world is not black and white, and Soviet Union wasn't entirely "black" (or rather "grey") as it was often portrayed. Russia is a largest country in the world with history to rival any European nation and a culture second to none. No ideology can erase that in measly 70 years...