Without debating the fact that obviously the Soviet Union had some major problems- there was alot of misconceptions given to us by our own propaganda machine- and many of the comments here:

http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...?showtopic=6531

by poeple that have actually been to or lived in the Soviet Union during the cold war, and even clear back to Stalin.

Like I said- this is not to discuss the obvious flaws in the USSR old system, but misconceptions about what life was like under the old cold war propaganda machines

So my question is- what do you think it was like under the old soviet rule, and how did you come by that information? Do you think that the information you recieved was pure propaganda? If not, how did you verify that it was/was not?

The comments by folks on the last debate were incredibly insightful and from personal experiance, so how about we don't get this one closed eh? LOL

I've had to dispell quite a few myths about the former Soviet Union. One that I had to dispell constantly (quite surprising, considering the source), is that the entire country does not look like what they show in Rocky IV. I don't know why so many people take that movie as gospel, but they do. I've had several people ask me if I've ever seen a day there without snow (where I lived had the same climate as where I live now). Also, many people assume that Siberia in its entirety is a frozen wasteland, and are surprised to find out there are actual cities there. Also, the usual questions about breadlines, bla bla bla.

I lived there from birth until 1989, so I don't have first hand experience with Stalin's regime, but when I lived there, my family was in no danger of any kind. Don't get me wrong, we left because IT SUCKED, but so many things are just blown way out of proportion. Basically, it was a zoo. If you were a lion, but purred like a kitten, you got more meat. The U.S. is a zoo as well, but a much closer to being the jungle.

One Soviet stereotype that I think applies to the U.S. 1,000 times more , is the one of everybody informing of each other. For the life of me, I cannot understand why. It's sickening, it's actually acceptable here for a mother to turn her son in to cops. Over there, she would be treated like she had the plague. And I won't even start on all the Neighborhood Watch crap that goes on. Many people here are taught to be rats since birth, basically.

Looms, that is an interesting criticism of the United States in comparison to the United States. My experience here has always been contrary to your impression. Telling on people has generally been perceived as worst than the committed offenses where I have traveled.

I find it somewhat amusing that you make the post in the setting of Sopranos. In mob culture rats are treated pretty brutally.

In the last thread it was interesting how some people talked about Soviet films without American bad guys.

Sorry you are living in a part of the country where any Rocky past II is taken as gospel. That has to be a disappointment.

Actually I wasn't referring to where I live, but more to the people I've met from various places while in the military. In NYC and the surrounding areas the Rocky stereotypes aren't taken seriously, probably due to the fact that a lot of people from that part of the world emigrated here. Oh well, at least everyone everywhere agrees that Rocky Vwas an abomination.



I didn't realize I was making a Sopranos reference, but it's funny you mention that, because



I've met many people that associate this kind of attitude with criminals, not as a good quality that some criminals ALSO have. Of course, this is all anecdotal, neither one of us knows enough people for it to be more than a stereotype based on personal experience.

Maybe I am not saying what I am trying to say clearly, a good movie example of what I am talking about is Scent of a Woman.

One more thing I wanted to mention is property ownership. All the apartments were state-owned and were leased long-term to citizens. There was a long (and I mean - LONG!) waiting list to get the apartment, especially in big cities, but once you got it it was, essentially, yours. The monthly payments were ridiculously low (something like 5 roubles per month where the average salary was around 130-150 roubles per month). Because it was "yours", you can do pretty much anything you want to the apartment without asking for any sort of permission - you can make a luxury flat out of it, or totally trash it (and I've seen both cases). Even if you trash it, nobody cares - it's yours! In the apartment building where we lived everybody was converting their balconies into funny-looking greenhouses by covering the balcony with an ugly looking glass cover. People were repainting apartments, remodeling kitchens, installing new plumbing, mounting second doors, etc. without necessity to ask for any kind of permission from a "landlord". Also, once you were given an apartment you can exchange it with someone else, even from another town (usually it worked that you would exchange, let's say, 3 bedroom apartment somewhere in a small town for a one-bedroom apartment in Moscow or St. Petersburg... apartments in big cities were significantly more valuable.) Essentially, the only thing you couldn't do with an apartment is to sell it for profit.

When I was a kid I was going to music school and, as a result, I was driving our neighbors nuts when I was practicing. We had a tacit agreement that I wouldn't practice after 9 PM (otherwise they'd start banging on a ceiling with a broom), but it was working out all right. The rules seem to be much more stringent in United States when it comes to noise.

I myself, being of only age 18, haven't seen a lot of Soviet culture per se, since I was only 5 when USSR dissolved, but I vaguely remember buying Fanta for rubles in the kiosk. Despite that, I have seen a lot of movies, documentals, read books, heard radio broadcasts etc., etc. about Soviet culture, history, politics and so forth.
And since we talk about misconceptions and stereotypes, much of what has been said above is true,e.g. medical care was FREE, and it was rather good, As the matter of fact my parents took care to fix all their dental problems right before we left 'cause we've been told by Russian friends here in the US that medical care is expensive and far from superb. When I was a kid I also remember living in the "community flat", i.e. we shared our apartment with 1 other family, until we got to own it some years later. Living in comm. flat, our "komunalka" is not a pretty sight, and many comedy shows on Russian TV poke fun out of this social traditions nowadays. If there are 3+ families living in the flat, in old huge Stalin/Khruschev era flats ("Hrushyovka"), you'll get a chance to stand in line for bathroom alongside your "neighboors", see coupla drunk guys every other day roaming around, and other not-less-pleasing things.
Where I lived (Soviet republic of Turkmenistan), there were no breadlines in gov-t store, but bread arrived at certain times of the day and you'd have to wait for it. I remember store being awfully far from my house, and ration cards for sugar, meat, slt, animal oil, and other commodities (but not in private stores). Few people owned car, mostly crappy Russian/Soviet "Zhiguli" (which is about as big, but not even as good as Dodge Neon, and all off the models of Zhiguli are box-looking and virtually identical to each other from early models to the most recent. Also few rich families owned German BMW's and very rich people owned Mercedeses, Toyotas or rarely American cars, but this was in post-Soviet era. Regular Joes (or Ivans, hehe) like me had to take a bus or trolley-bus to school, work and everywhere else.
Free speech was restricted to kitchen ("kitchen talk", as mentioned above) and expression of criticism against government policies was not allowed (that's why you would never see anti-war protests in USSR and people burning their own flags and calling governemnt obscenities, unlike here in the US).
In many, but not all, movies, esp. 60s/70s movies, American were protrayed as greedy, exploiting, beligerent rotten capitalists, but that was mostly observed in 60/70 era action movies, where an honest Soviet guys fight off foreign aggressors, save American nuclear sub, or shoot out with international pirates.
As for USSR, people were often glamorized with anything American and street dealer (from the stories of my dad) made a big Ruble of selling smuggled Beattles/Rolling Stones records and Lee jeans.
Foreign travelling was problematic, but travel within Soviet bloc (Romania, Bulgaria, Hungury, and other socialist countries) was very easy and inexpensive.
Where I lived we didn't pay water bills and electricity bills (because my father was an engineer for Department of Energy, it was like a benefit).
Schools were pretty crappy, meaning dilapidated, paint pealing off, etc. Discipline was more rigorous in the classes, some teachers were outright tyrants. Universities and trade schools were free of charge, but you had to qualify for admission into good college.
It was an official propaganda of the Soviet government that crime was rare in the Soviet Union and almost obsolete (why would you need to rob someone when under communism everone shares everything?), but prostituion, black market and goverment corruption existed.
Conscription was another abominable practice. Rich kids got off easily by buying "disability" diagnosis from doctor, bribing drafting committee or in the worst cases paying to be assigned to some 3rd-echelon "gardening-and-knitting" reserve unit. Those who were a bit less lucky had to serve, many Soviet men came through 10-year-long Afghan conflict and other undisclosed conflicts worldwide. Practice of abuse of new fresh recruits by older soldiers or officer, oftentimes physical abuse and humiliation, known as "dedovshina", still makes headlines of Russian papers when some recruit shoots 10 of his unit comrades.
Jails were and are MOST loathsome, unhygienic, dehumanizing, overcrowded (even now there are usually 10-12 people in cell designed to hold 3-4), and malignant for health. For those intersted, Russian movie "Bespredel" clearly evinces all the horror of Soviet/Russian prisons. Compared to them, American slammers are 5-star hotels in Cancun resort.
I would agree with "families were more close and friendly", with a side commentary that in Soviet Union divorce was a frowned upon practice, since it was considered that it destroys social fabric. Divorces were rare and if such took place, all the co-workers, friends and supervisors of divorcees were supposed to censure them. In the old movies I would sometimes see a scene depicting an assembly of citizens, with the husband and wife present, discussing the decision of the two, making comment, scolding them, etc. That's
how it was.
Oh well, I guess I wrote enough alrady. so that's how it was.

One thing also to remember is that the USSR was/is even MORE diverse in culture and ethnicity than the US- but individualism was/is discouraged anywhere, but culture more than law.

Still, two areas that Russia stands head and shoulders above the US is medicine and scholastics- my daughter will be a dual citizenship Russia/US until 18, so she can take advantage of Russian schools- not this summer but the next, she will be doing what has become tradition for all Russian/American kids I know- "Russian Bootcamp" LOL- Russian school for the equivilent of one semester per year, until high school.

Though, unlike Illuminati- I have watched a great deal of Russiam movies, a great help to my learning/speaking Russian, and I have yet to see a single movie from any post-Stalin era to portray the US as bad guys in any way!

Also- the different type of racism there is unusual for an American- they have racism, yes, but not really towards blacks- but towards other white ethnicities- which is really confusing for an American!

Also, what ties in with our current "WOT" conflict is the HUGE number of muslims in Russia- and most of them moderate at that! The city of Kazan, where my wife comes from, Muslims and Russian Orthodox get along quite nicely, it is not unusual to see a Muslim holy man and Russian Orthodox holy man having tea together across the street from thier respective churches. Our flat nieghbor there is Muslim, and 2 days after 9/11 he called us, here in America, to express his sorrow to us, at his great expense (he is a pensionor and has very little money).

BTW- Muslims were allowed to practise thier religioun openly since Stalin died. No persecution or loss of job opportunities whatsoever, as long as they did not defy the party. In fact, there is statues in Kazan paying tribute to Muslim men from the "revolution".

Is there something to indicate that propaganda espoused that the Soviets were ignorant and their school systems bad? I don't remember that at all.

As far as their medical system went, we all knew medical care was free. They had a lot of technical advances, and good doctors (at least, as I remember in the media). The problem back then (as suggested by the media), was the lack of medical supplies, such as needles, bandages, ect. I heard that often families had to visit their relatives and bring their own things. Don't know if that is the case. At no point, however, do I remember anyone suggesting that their education or doctors were inferior.

Wow, where to start.

Growing up in the late 80's early 90's, my dad had bought an image book called 'A Day in the Life of the Soviet Union'.

From what I remember, the Soviet way of life was very simple. One went to work, spent time with friends and family, and enjoyed their life, as simple as it might be. And I suppose that made them look not as well off as mainstream America. Images of Soviet troops marching, people taking in a bath house, really interesting images. I think if one should get the chance they should look for the book.

At the same time, (and I'm glad I saw the Rocky IV nod) I remember the cold eyes of Dolph Lungren in Rocky IV saying "If he dies, he dies" as Apollo Creed lay dying in the ring. The evil Russian promoter and his spin session at the news conference. (And yet, at the end of the movie, there was a positive message.) In the movies, Russians were cold and calculating, (as Fred Thompson said in The Hunt for Red October 'Russians don't take a dump without a plan, son.") desperate and filled with resolve (if anyone has seen Moscow on the Hudson, Robin Williams does a great job) or hopeless and fatalistic.

Now I'll be honest, I haven't really shaken all the perceptions I have out of my head, most of you have met Russians and have interacted with them. The only one I met was in high school who was from Khovborosk who's grandfather had fought in the Russo-Japanese war. (I know, it sounded crazy to me too). I've always imagined it to not be as worse, maybe close though, to the way that we've been brought up to view the Soviets.

(pardon me I'm sort of just thinking out loud, try to keep up)

But at the same time, can we ask ourselves the question, who were we told were evil.. the Russians or their government? I mean, the Soviets pre-Khruschev were not all that friendly. The ruthlessness of the KGB. The often bloody power struggles within the government. The Gulags. I mean, there's a reason why the Nazis were praying that we'd get to Berlin first.

Now from Khruschev on, the Soviets changed very little. The Soviets cracked down on the Catholic and Russian Orthodox Church. No one could openly critcize their Soviet, the Politiburo, or the Premier without severe persecution. The arms race left little for the common Russian. Life wasn't that great. Things began to pick up because IMO, they lucked out with Gorby. If it wasn't for Glastnost and Perestroika the fall might of taken longer.

So was it wrong we assumed (and were perhaps right to an extent) about our perceptions that Russians were waiting in line for hours for a loaf of stale bread and toilet paper? Were we really wrong about how bad it might of been?

Perhaps our ideas of the common Russian were both right and wrong in some ways. But if you ask me, the perception of their government was not to far from the truth. Now maybe I'm just the last holdout in that respect on this thread, and I could be wrong. But this thread has made me ask myself many questions and I hope to find the answers here as well.

I can confirm that you are absolutely correct. The doctors and nurses (for the most part) were (and are) very knowledgeable and dedicated - you have to be, because salaries of medical workers were quite low compared to other professions - the medical profession didn't have this aura of financial security that doctors in the Western world enjoy (I don't know why... but I know that it's true because both of my grandmothers were doctors).
But the thing with supplies was a disaster.... When my grandfather was in the hospital he needed some medicines which were not available in the hospital, so we were getting it ourselves through our own "channels" (usually black market or friends). I think hospitals in US are pretty awesome (until the bill comes, that is ), although I believe that medical residents are overworked... but it's a totally different subject.

I base my information on observations I made about the Soviets during the Cold War and on some brief conversations I have had with former Soviet scientists and engineers since that time. And this is purely from a scientific and engineering standpoint.

The most marked difference it seemed to me between "us" and "them" was the level of innovation and creativity we had in the west compared to that in the Soviet Union. We would make something, they would copy it, maybe make some improvments to it, but basically use the same concept for their design. You can see that in many of their military weapons systems design for example and part of that was because of their overall military plan, but there is something else I think. They weren't any dumber than we were, the Russians have produced some of the finest scientific minds in history, but I think their system discouraged individuality and creativity. The heads of the various state-run bureaus weren't interested in inventing new things, that cost too much. Rather, they were interested in stealing someone else's invention and making it "better" which might mean bigger or cheaper or faster and in greater quantities. My experience in the US was that innovation was encouraged, creativity rewarded and new ideas for old problems embraced. Based on my conversations with those who did the same things I did on "the other side", it was completely different. Status Quo was the idea there. I had one engineer tell me "We were allowed to do that because you Americans had already proven it worked!"

I think that was one of the true downfalls to the Soviet system, and what a waste to mankind that they weren't allowed to create.

Not true; after WWII there were no crackdown on church (especially Russian Orthodox), cathedrals and churches were open and while being religious was somewhat frowned upon, nobody was persecuted. I remember stopping by at churches all the time in downtown St. Petersburg - there were no KGB agents at the door waiting to pick me up .



True; but why would an average person need to? As Looms pointed out, as long as you keep quiet and mind your own business, life was pretty decent.



Well, an entire thread has addressed this one. Look, everything is relative, of course, and when I was growing up I didn't have as many toys as American kids have, our family didn't have a car, and our savings were pretty low by western standards. Still - every summer my parents were able to take us on vacation somewhere, be it the Black Sea down South or somewhere in Lithuania, or just a summer house ("dacha") somewhere in the village. I was going to music school (for free!) and was also taking chess classes (I dropped out because I sucked!) and at various points participated in all kinds of other extra-curricular activities - all for free. I believe I got a World-class education (the benefits of which I am reaping right now here in USA ) - also for free! I agree that my family lived much poorer than an average American family, but I still say that I had a pretty decent and happy childhood.




Actually I have addressed this in one of my previous posts (see previous thread). Things actually went down significantly for vast majority of Russians after "perestroika" and while the strongest and ones with the most business sense recovered nicely since, many people suffer to that day.

My dad, being a scientist, would strongly disagree with that one. I am not a weapon specialist but from what I heard AK-47 is the most widespread small weapon of that kind in the world, not M-16
If individuality and creativity would really be discouraged, the system could not have produced the minds which were so sought-after when the curtain fell (look at the faculty of any physics department in any US university and see how many Russian-educated scientists work there). Also Russians would not have achieved many "firsts" such as "Sputnik", first man in space, etc.

P.S. Look here to see the results of the latest International Programming Contest. Out of top 10, Russian teams took first, third, fourth and eights place. The champions from St. Petersburg beat MIT, Harvard, Stanford, California Institute of technology, and others. You don't suggest that the system that allowed such talents to be grown was created in 10 years after Soviet Union collapse? Of course not.

I am not refering to the intellects or capabilities of Soviet scientists, but rather to what they were allowed to do by their system. Sputnik was an outgrowth of WWII and the weapons' systems that were created primarily by German scientists, just as Echo was on our side. Heck, even our early spaceflights were powered by basically German designs (the Redstone rocket). The innovations I am referencing are new advances in technology, not making existing technology "better" or more robust. That is an area where the Soviets most definitely lagged during the Cold War and one of the things that kept us ahead.



Talent isn't "grown" or created. It is only allowed to be exercised or not where it exists.

That's an area where you're obviously more knowledgeable than I am, so I retreat Hey, could be that my opinions are still Soviet-propaganda influenced, even after all these years I heard that the latest MIG planes are pretty advanced though, and world-class... is that not true? You seem to be a specialist in the area.

Actutally, yes they are, and yes I have something of an "expertise" in that area. The Mig-29 in particular is really quite advanced and poses a very definite problem for our F-15, especially with their improved air-air missle capability. There's never been any question that the Russians (or Soviets) knew how to make good airplanes, or especially jet engines. My argument lies more in the area of innovation as far as advancing the art. They really weren't very good at doing that back then and I think that had everything to do with their system and nothing to do with the capabilities of the people involved.

Again, this is not quite true. Early in the cold war the USSR played a bit of catch up by employing copied/stolen German and American designs for atomic weapons and rockets. However that only lasted a few years. The Russian academy of sciences was very good at individual development and innovation, and they developed many of their own designs throughout the Cold war, the idea that all the USSR did was copy the west is largely a myth.

Now there were field in which the USSR did copy its western counterparts, most notably in computers. However there were also areas in which the West copied Soviet designs and incorporated them into their own vehicles and technology. Now common innovations such as CACR helicopter blades, and vectored thrust... these are all stolen from the USSR. Also, while one can say that rocket designs were borrowed from Germany (just as the US did) remember that as well as Sputnik, the USSR put the first man in space, the first unmanned probe on the moon and on Mars. Those were all domestic achievements. Even at the end of the Cold war, the Soviets were ahead of the US in several fields: airframe design, biological weapons, Missile submarine design, Deisel-Electric submarines, torpedo design...


The myth of Soviet lack of innovation comes from two main sources, the two main areas where the USSR DID lag behind and borrow from the west is in computers and in Surface naval ship design. Because of the growing importance of computers, and the Soviet lag, the myth seemed justified...


Lastly, even TODAY, Russia is still producing top quality home developed equipment. The Shkval super-cavitating torpedo is a technology unknown to the West, and the US has desperately been trying to get their hands on one, as it revolutionises undersea warfare. The only real competitor to the F-22 Raptor are the French Rafale-2 and the new MiG-42. However, as is a common problem with Russia nowadays, they develop top quality equipment (MiG-42, T-95 MBT, ,Mid-flight maneuvering Ballistc missiles, Borey Class submarines, and of course the newly deployed Topol-M ICBM...

...but they can not afford to mass produce them. Be clear though, the Borey is the most advances Boomer in the world, the US department of Defence has declared that the Topol-M missile is more modern and better than any missile in the US arsenal... Russia is STILL capable of innovation and is quietly turning out some of the best weapon designs in the world.


Jane's defence has alsready published many articles commenting on how if Russia manages to get its MIC production back in order, it is technologically capable of rivalling or exceeding the US in terms of many weapon systems.

EDIT


I'll tell you a very cool story I heard at a defence conference in Washington a couple years back. Apparently, there was a time just a few years ago when the Most powerful and advanced fighters on the planet were owned by... Poland.

The MiG-29 was the most advanced airframe in the world, better than anything the West had. The USSR was ahead of the west in airframe development technology. However the USSR could not compete with the West in terms of avionics and electronics, where US planes were superior.

In the early 1990s, Poland wanted to improve their air-fleet, so they hired a bunch of US contractors to upgrade the avionics on their old Soviet air fleet. The result was a whole line of MiG-29 airframes upgraded with the best western avionics, making the best fighter in the world.

Now, of course, the MiG-29 is geting old, and Russia already has better designs including the SU-27 and of course the prototype MiG-42, which based on early performance flights and tests, will leave the F-22 in the dust, assuming Russia can ever find the money to mass-produce it...

One area in which the Soviets were quite innovative was medicine.

Remember, radial keratotomy originated in Russia, many years before it was practiced here. In the late 1980s, I had a leg lengthening procedure that was very new to the US, but had been used in Russia for over a decade. Our American version of the device (four pins through the leg, with one bar connecting them on the outside of the leg) was very sleek by comparison...the Soviet one looked like a torture chamber device, and there were about 15 different pins surrounding the leg. I always concluded that the Soviets were innovative, but didn't have the incentive to make those innovations elegant or comfortable.

Fun story, true or not, fun story. There is nothing new about the Mig 29 or Su 27, they've been around for 20 years or so. We were doing OA against them in the early 1980's. Not sure what aspect of airframe design you are referencing, but the thing that made the Mig 29 a problem for the F-15 was when the Soviets developed a "shoot in the face" air-air capability. In certain combat situations, that gave them according to our estimates a 2.5 second window advantage over the F-15. That is an eternity in air-air.

Still though, I am somewhat sceptical about some of the performance claims on aircraft under development, theirs and ours. I remember how in awe we were about the Mig-25 until we actually got our hands on one of them and had a chance to take a look at it. It was considerably different than we had been led to believe. Of course, I remember what our initial specs for the F-22 were as well. If we had actually built that thing, Mrs P's hubby would be doing flight testing with it between here and Mars.

Still though, historically the Soviet development of weapons systems was largely a counter-punching effort and a reaction to what we were doing, particularly in the air-based area. Part of that was the doctrine and philosophy of the Soviet military which was dominated by the Army. I don't know if that philosophy has changed since then, but even this Mig 42 looks an awful lot like the F-22. I wonder where they came up with that idea.....

Aquilla



I think you'd find that this was true of both sides... in fact I'm pretty sure thats why its termed an 'arms race',

I personally have never bought the notion that the Soviets lacked in the creativity department. If anything their designs may show a lack of innovation when compared to American hardware but I'm not convinced this is a weakness.

Soviet hardware was always practical and especially geared towards heavy duty use. All the Soviet military hardware I've ever had the opportunity to inspect had one simple thing in common, and that was durability, something which the Soviets seemed to have carried through to their space programme as well where a good idea was treasured and nurtured. Its interesting to note the similarity in design philosophy which has carried through from the first Soviet modules right up to the ISS and the progress ships which resupply it and which has stood the test of time admirably whilst American designs have come and gone and currently are grounded by the sheer expense of last years tragic failure.

Also... with regards to the one nation copying and using the innovation of the other side, I found it interesting that one of the best rocket engines currently available to America, is based on an old Soviet design...

http://www.pw.utc.com/prod_space_rd180.asp




Does it?

MiG 42: schematic photo

F22: schematic photo

They don't look very similar to me..

Nope, they don't. That one looks more like the Rafale or one of the SAAB Viggens. I was thinking more of the Mig 41 Foxglove, although there does appear to be some confusion of the numbers as this Czech website would indicate.

Under Soviet rule, i think the USSR was probably where China is economically now but i don't think they were as technologically superior (not including the fact they got into space first) to us

GA- you may be right, you may be wrong- but the funny thing is- you really don't know- everything you know about the Russian federation today, or USSR before, has been spoon fed to us- we never have had any credible stuff about it- except, interestingly enough- national geographic. Some of the articles I read about them, even during the cold war, seem to be close to what I have heard to reality.

Sorry, I didn't quite understand your sentence there... but if you meant what i think, I have to say again that at the end of the Cold war, the USSR was as advanced as the US in many field, and ahead of the US in some. Only in one major field were they significantly behind the US, and that was in the use of computers. Now of corse, computers are a huge area to be behind in, in general the USSR was 2-4 years behind the US, and the computers they did have tended to be copies of Apple and IBM models from a few years ago.

Oddly enough the USSR produced brillint software programmers, and there was a huge export of them to the west in the early 1990s.

Given the enormous explosion in the use of computers in the last 15 years, it is likely that had the USSR not collapsed, the mthical technological gap wouldhave become a reality, however as I said in above posts, post-Soviet Russia is still producing weapons systems of all types equal to or better than the US is producing.

Well, I'm certainly not up on most tech fields myself, but I got a real eye-opener early last year when I spent some time with the Kazakh Airborne Brigade in Kapchagay. I expected the military installation to be falling apart, just due to economics over the past decade, but all their military equipment was equivalent to ours of WWII vintage, as far as tech for military airborne ops goes...all I remember thinking during my time at the base was, "we were worried about these guys?"

I should add that they had special troops manning the security towers around the base perimeter to prevent conscript desertions, and the conscripts that pulled gate duty were not permitted to carry weapons. This was not because the commanders were concerned they might fire up their fellow soldiers - but there had been a rash of conscripts selling their AK's to local black marketeers.

Kazakh Airborne Training

More Kazakh Airborne Training

Kazak PLF Training

Kazakh Jump Wings

Update on the old dead thread: I'll be able to report firsthand how the misconceptions that we had (and still have) hold true - in about two weeks. I'm flying to Russia tonight - for the first time in 10 years! My understanding is that I myself have a lot of misconceptions of my own - things have changed so much there since 1994. I'll start another debate about misconceptions about present-day Russia once I am back
See ya'll in two weeks!