Full Version: Are we what we do?
On the "Patriotism, American style" thread, Arty said something along the lines of "we are what we do", in the context of whether a country is worthy of patriotism.
I have expressed similar sentiments elsewhere in several different threads while I've been posting here. While nobody has openly challenged me on the idea, nobody has agreed with me either.
Given the relatively common idea that ends justify means, for instance among some supporters of the Iraq War, I wondered if this idea was worth exploring in more depth, particularly when compared to country of origin.
I have a hunch that many Americans have the idea that it is possibly for a good person, group of people, country or culture to do bad things without altering their status as "good", and so would tend to choose one of the first three poll options. A current contextual application would be the idea that American moral authority is not diminished in Iraq after the prisoner "abuse" scandals, or if it is diminished, it's only because of a lack of insight on the part of others. Though some of the things that happened were similar to things the old regime did, the USA and her allies are nothing like Saddam's regime, because, well, we are good and we are right.
I also have a hunch that Europeans prefer the idea that actions are the only important things - and would choose one of the last three. The same contextual application would produce a view that Western authority in Iraq was hugely damaged by the abuse scandals, and that we should urgently make amends. By behaving in a similar fashion (though to a lesser degree) to the old regime, we have become like them. We are not good if we do evil things, or allow them to happen.
PLEASE NOTE: I do not want to try to establish which position is right or correct, just to explore if there are real differences of opinion, and if so, how does it relate to real world politics.
I have expressed similar sentiments elsewhere in several different threads while I've been posting here. While nobody has openly challenged me on the idea, nobody has agreed with me either.
Given the relatively common idea that ends justify means, for instance among some supporters of the Iraq War, I wondered if this idea was worth exploring in more depth, particularly when compared to country of origin.
I have a hunch that many Americans have the idea that it is possibly for a good person, group of people, country or culture to do bad things without altering their status as "good", and so would tend to choose one of the first three poll options. A current contextual application would be the idea that American moral authority is not diminished in Iraq after the prisoner "abuse" scandals, or if it is diminished, it's only because of a lack of insight on the part of others. Though some of the things that happened were similar to things the old regime did, the USA and her allies are nothing like Saddam's regime, because, well, we are good and we are right.
I also have a hunch that Europeans prefer the idea that actions are the only important things - and would choose one of the last three. The same contextual application would produce a view that Western authority in Iraq was hugely damaged by the abuse scandals, and that we should urgently make amends. By behaving in a similar fashion (though to a lesser degree) to the old regime, we have become like them. We are not good if we do evil things, or allow them to happen.
PLEASE NOTE: I do not want to try to establish which position is right or correct, just to explore if there are real differences of opinion, and if so, how does it relate to real world politics.
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Topic closed...</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Reason: Question to debate too vague or missing.<br /><br />Recommended action: If you started this topic, please contact the staff member who closed it by clicking the PM button below this post with a clear question to debate.<br /><br />Helpful links:<br />- Starting New Topics<br />- Survival Guide<br />- The Rules<br />- Staff Directory</td></tr><tr><td class='darkrow1'><div align='center'>Note: This is an automated response.</div></td></tr></table></div>
Topic closed...</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Reason: Question to debate too vague or missing.<br /><br />Recommended action: If you started this topic, please contact the staff member who closed it by clicking the PM button below this post with a clear question to debate.<br /><br />Helpful links:<br />- Starting New Topics<br />- Survival Guide<br />- The Rules<br />- Staff Directory</td></tr><tr><td class='darkrow1'><div align='center'>Note: This is an automated response.</div></td></tr></table></div>
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