No it's actually people who can't get their feelings off their shoulders and be 'offended' by a little cross on a seal.

The next thing you know offending somebody will be a crime. whistling.gif

but it comes down to the letter of the law and the fact that in 1956 the LA BoS violated the establishment clause of the 1st amendment. It's that simple.

Exactly what religion is the LA county seal 'establishing'?

Exactly what religion is the LA county seal 'establishing'?

That is the flaw in both of your arguments. Christianity is not a religion. Now if the symbol was a Rosary that would be establishing Chatholocism, which is a religion. Christianity itself is not a religion. Therefor you cannot establish christianity as a religion.

That is the flaw in both of your arguments.  Christianity is not a religion. Now if the symbol was a Rosary that would be establishing Chatholocism, which is a religion.  Christianity itself is not a religion. Therefor you cannot establish christianity as a religion.

Sleeper that is splitting hairs at best and at worst completely wrong.

Christianity is not a religion. Now if the symbol was a Rosary that would be establishing Chatholocism, which is a religion.  Christianity itself is not a religion. Therefor you cannot establish christianity as a religion.

The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus.  Christians as a group; Christendom.  The state or fact of being a Christian.   pl. Chris·ti·an·i·ties A particular form or sect of the Christian religion: the Christianities of antiquity.

Chris*tian"i*ty\, n. [OE. cristiente, OF. cristient['e], F. chr['e]tient['e], fr. L. christianitas. ] 1. The religion of Christians; the system of doctrines and precepts taught by Christ.

2. Practical conformity of one's inward and outward life to the spirit of the Christian religion

3. The body of Christian believers.

It doesn't say 'separation of church and state ' anywhere in that document. If it was implied....it would have been said. How can anyone know what the Founding Fathers implied? The only way to know what they wanted is by reading what they actually wrote.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

-- Jefferson on Seperation of Church and State

Lowell v. Griffin (1938) - 8-0 ruling that the licensing of Jehovah’s Witnesses infringed their 1st Amendment guarantee of the freedom of religion.

Jones v. Opelika (1942) - overturned the Lowell ruling over the licensing of religious groups.

Lynch v. Donelly (1984) - 5-4 ruling that a public display of a nativity scene in a school in Pawtucket was constitutional.

Wallas v. Jaffee (1985) - 6-3 ruling on the unconstitutionality of school prayers again, this time in a case in Alabama.

Edwards v. Aguilar (1987) - 7-2 ruling that Louisiana’s Balanced Treatment Act which required schools to teach creationism alongside Darwinism was unconstitutional as it was an attempt to advance a religious belief.

Zobrest v. Catalina Foothills School District (1992) - ruled that public school could pay for an interpreter for deaf girl at a private religious school.

Lambs Chapel v. Center Moriches Union Free School (1992) - ruled that a school district could not ban a religious group from using school premises for a religious meeting after school hours.

Lukini Babalu Aye v. Hialeah (1992) - ruled that a Florida City ban on animal sacrifice infringed the constitutional right to the free exercise of religion.

City of Boerne v. Flores (1997) - 6-3 ruling that struck down the Religious Freedom Restoration Act which had reversed a previous Court ruling. The RFRA sought to help individuals exempt themselves from general state laws on religious grounds. The SC was challenged unsuccessfully by Congress.

Good News Club v. Milford Central School (2001) - 6-3 ruling that it is not possible to prevent a group from using a public facility because of the group's religious viewpoint as a ban violates the 1st Amendment.

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!

----------

The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.

-- Jefferson

Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public?

-- Adams

If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.

----------

Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.

-- Washington

A Man compounded of Law and Gospel, is able to cheat a whole Country with his Religion, and then destroy them under Colour of Law: And here the Clergy are in great Danger of being deceiv'd, and the People of being deceiv'd by the Clergy, until the Monster arrives to such Power and Wealth, that he is out of the reach of both, and can oppress the People without their own blind Assistance.

-- Franklin

Just an update here on the on-going battle over the Los Angeles County Seal.  This group is starting a petition drive in Los Angeles County to gather 347,000 signatures of county residents to prevent the LA County Supervisors from changing the seal.  According to a radio interview I heard today from one of the leaders of this organization, if they can gather the number of signatures required in the time alloted, it would compell the Board of Supervisors to either keep the old seal or put the issue before the voters in a special election.  And, if the ACLU doesn't like it, fine, we'll see you in court.  And they think they can win there too.

I have no doubt they'll be able to gather these signatures, probably 2-3 times as many as they need and we'll let this all play out.  Ain't democracy wunnerful?   

If this is a Constitutional point, it doesn't matter if it gets put up for a vote. Judging from public polls, if they put the Assault Rifle Ban up for public vote, it would be reinstated in a heartbeat. Should that matter, if the ban is unconstitutional? Sometimes it seems that when people on the left say 'let the people decide,' their conservative opponents will decry such tactics as undermining the Constitution. I guess it all depends on which amendment we're talking about...   For that matter, a majority of Americans support the idea of universal health care. Maybe we should put that up for a vote, too!

And there is no law respecting the establishment of religion...there is just some dopey picture. And again... i am not religious. I just believe that the 'separation of church and state' notion has been blown greatly out of proportion to the actual intent of the Founding Fathers.

The picture on a state seal "establishes" that a monotheistic religion is the preferred religion of the state and is recognized as being such in a de facto way. If you are Jewish, agnostic, a Muslim, or Mormon, the state of California is recognizing the achievements of a given group over yours. That is the message that the seal gives. It's an object of the state and being such, sends a message to citizens. And thus, is unconstitutional.

The cross on the Seal is simply a historical acknowledgement of the significant role played by Catholic Missionaries in the settlement of the county of Los Angeles.  It doesn't "establish" anything, but rather recognizes Los Angeles County's historical roots - properly so.  For the government to remove that historic symbol from the seal because it is a religious reference is an attempt on the part of the government to deny a part of history simply because a religion was involved and is thus, discriminatory against that religion.  And thus, unconstitutional.

        The proponents of the original seal are just arguing and debating disingenuously.  They only want their religion to be promoted and shown, and not ever be questioned.