Full Version: Pledge Case
I was thinking about the pledge case, when it struck me: why does a free country have kids recite the pledge of allegiance in most schools?
Most of these kids don't appreciate what they're saying or understand it.
Doesn't that just ammount to indoctrination?
I'm getting images of the hitler youth here.
Most of these kids don't appreciate what they're saying or understand it.
Doesn't that just ammount to indoctrination?
I'm getting images of the hitler youth here.
The pledge is creepy. Swearing your allegiance to a flag and country is an authoritarian sentiment. Change the first words to ones more commonly used "I swear my loyalty and obedience to the flag". 
Weird. I think it should be scrapped.
Of course, the littlest kids sure do look cute when they recite it though.
Weird. I think it should be scrapped. Of course, the littlest kids sure do look cute when they recite it though.
After pledging allegiance for much of my elementary school career, I guess I am indoctrinated.
A simple pledge affirming your allegience to the Republic of the United States of America is not totalitarian, at least in my view.
We should be proud of who we are and what we have accomplished.
The ending phrase "with liberty and justice for all" sums it up: you have liberty here. In Nazi Germany, there was only the Reich.
Since we are not all "indoctrinated" (reference: half the posts on this board), I think it is safe to say that it ain't gonna happen.
There is more to indoctrination than simply reciting a pledge. Enforcement by the "thought police" is necessary. Speaking contrary views must be squashed. None of that is happening.
A simple pledge affirming your allegience to the Republic of the United States of America is not totalitarian, at least in my view.
We should be proud of who we are and what we have accomplished.
The ending phrase "with liberty and justice for all" sums it up: you have liberty here. In Nazi Germany, there was only the Reich.
Since we are not all "indoctrinated" (reference: half the posts on this board), I think it is safe to say that it ain't gonna happen.
There is more to indoctrination than simply reciting a pledge. Enforcement by the "thought police" is necessary. Speaking contrary views must be squashed. None of that is happening.
QUOTE(lethe @ Jun 18 2004, 08:16 AM)
I'm getting images of the hitler youth here.
funny you should mention that
why don't you take a gander at these photos. look familiar?
It is an ATTEMPT at indoctrination- no doubt. Sometimes, however, reality steps in and the indoctrination doesn't take LOL 
For instance- my wife was a member of the young pioneers in Soviet Russia prior to the collapse. She never did join the communist party however. In reading her literature, there is almost zero difference whatsoever between the Boy Scouts and the Red Pioneers. Even many of the "moral" principles are the same.
Peer pressure in school is enormous, and making someone feel that they are wrong by not doing the pledge in school is forcing them to do it- and really, against everything America is supposed to represent.
For instance- my wife was a member of the young pioneers in Soviet Russia prior to the collapse. She never did join the communist party however. In reading her literature, there is almost zero difference whatsoever between the Boy Scouts and the Red Pioneers. Even many of the "moral" principles are the same.
Peer pressure in school is enormous, and making someone feel that they are wrong by not doing the pledge in school is forcing them to do it- and really, against everything America is supposed to represent.
To borrow a word from Mrs. P, the Pledge does have a creepy history behind it. It was written by socialist Francis Bellamy in 1892, and as Unabomber's referenced pictures show, the original salute was the Nazi-style stiffed armed salute that was only abandoned when the Nazi party started using it in the 1930's.
According to Unabomber's source, Francis Bellamy's cousin Edward Bellamy wrote a futuristic novel in 1888, titled "Looking Backward." It described living in the year 2000, wherein society had become an advanced worker's utopia. However, all private transactions were illegal, the government had absolute authority, all men were placed in the "industrial army," and the school system was integrated into this with an indoctrination process.
I don't think our Pledge is part of such an indoctrination system, and that any effect it has in such regard is negligible, but I don't think we should have school children routinely saying it each morning either. The Pledge is "voluntary" but I don't think that is a fair assessment at the grade school level. Most adults can clearly discern their own voluntary participation, while children are under pressure to conform and are not necessarily able to fully rationalize why they are saying the Pledge.
The Pledge can have patriotic feelings and associations, and as Amlord remarked, it can be positive that we be proud of who we are and what we have accomplished. However, I have to ask if not wanting to recite the Pledge of Allegiance means that an individual is not proud of who we are, or what we have accomplished.
Did anyone read one of the sublinks from the previously referenced site, wherein the writer suggested we replace the Pledge? Since Congress created the Pledge for recitation each day, and originally it was legally mandatory, he suggests we substitute it with a new Pledge that only Congress and elected officials are required to say each day:
He recommends people write their representatives and insist that Congress pass such a law. I think that is pretty far-fetched but you gotta love the spirit of it.
According to Unabomber's source, Francis Bellamy's cousin Edward Bellamy wrote a futuristic novel in 1888, titled "Looking Backward." It described living in the year 2000, wherein society had become an advanced worker's utopia. However, all private transactions were illegal, the government had absolute authority, all men were placed in the "industrial army," and the school system was integrated into this with an indoctrination process.
I don't think our Pledge is part of such an indoctrination system, and that any effect it has in such regard is negligible, but I don't think we should have school children routinely saying it each morning either. The Pledge is "voluntary" but I don't think that is a fair assessment at the grade school level. Most adults can clearly discern their own voluntary participation, while children are under pressure to conform and are not necessarily able to fully rationalize why they are saying the Pledge.
The Pledge can have patriotic feelings and associations, and as Amlord remarked, it can be positive that we be proud of who we are and what we have accomplished. However, I have to ask if not wanting to recite the Pledge of Allegiance means that an individual is not proud of who we are, or what we have accomplished.
Did anyone read one of the sublinks from the previously referenced site, wherein the writer suggested we replace the Pledge? Since Congress created the Pledge for recitation each day, and originally it was legally mandatory, he suggests we substitute it with a new Pledge that only Congress and elected officials are required to say each day:
QUOTE
"I pledge allegiance to individual rights
in the United States of America,
and to all private persons
under whom I serve,
one nation, of individuals,
under any Gods or none,
with liberty, and justice for each."
in the United States of America,
and to all private persons
under whom I serve,
one nation, of individuals,
under any Gods or none,
with liberty, and justice for each."
He recommends people write their representatives and insist that Congress pass such a law. I think that is pretty far-fetched but you gotta love the spirit of it.
Yuck!
Makes me not to resite the pledge.
I'm mot voting Republican or Democrat amy more!
How about this pledge?
QUOTE
I pledge allegiance to individual rights
in the United States of America, one man to defend the rights of all men, all men to defend the rights of one man.
in the United States of America, one man to defend the rights of all men, all men to defend the rights of one man.
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