Alan Wood
Jun 23 2004, 05:10 AM
I bunged this in because there are only a few foreign nationals who contribute to AD on a regular basis and they range from the downright critical of the US's external conduct (like myself), to placatory.
I believe it would be good for all of us if more foreign nationals offered their opinions.
Now I realise this is called Americas Debate and if it could have been called anything more international it perhaps might have been.
The Poll is deliberately kept simple because reasons can be posted.
Regards.....................Alan
CruisingRam
Jun 23 2004, 05:26 AM
I think it is foolish to ignore world opinion OR think it doesn't affect our country, so I voted "important".
Cyan
Jun 23 2004, 06:29 AM
Moved to Casual Conversation.
Please discuss your feelings about whether or not it is important to gain an international perspective on the issues. The dialogue in this thread must remain civil.
Cadman
Jun 23 2004, 09:49 AM
I agree with CruisingRam that it would be ignorant to think we live in a vacuum.
Julian
Jun 23 2004, 10:10 AM
I think Americans care deeply about international opinion, but only to the extent that they want to be validated in their own views. They want to be told that they are right, they want to be agreed with, and they want to have friends. I think America was deeply and genuinely moved by the outpouring of world support for them in the immediate aftermath of 9-11, for example.
They don't want any of these things so badly that they are prepared to change their minds or behaviour if everybody else says that they are wrong, if nobody agrees with them, or if they have no friends, however. I think that America was and is genuinely offended and perplexed by foreign criticism of the Iraq War, or at least the parts of America that supported the war and still do. Perhaps more perplexed and offended than by domestic criticism of that war.
There is, perhaps naturally, an unspoken assumption among Americans that foreign criticism of America is rude and uncalled for. In part, this is human nature - nobody minds criticism within a family, but when outsiders start weighing in, even if they say the same things as people on the inside, there's a natural tendency to band together against the outsiders.
Most other countries are the same - the British and French certainly are. It's a national pastime to complain about how dreadful the state of such-and-such is in this country, and to treat every issue as a half-empty glass rather than a half-full one. But if a foreigner says the same thing, suddenly such-and-such is a world paragon and the equivalants in foreign lands are pale shadows, and besides which we invented the idea in the first place (everyone says this, no matter where they are).
Also, though - and this is the one area of the American psyche that really worries me - most Americans' first assumption that America is right, every time. In a country where government is so constitutionally limited, the American public seems touchingly (or worryingly - depending on your point of view) trusting of their government, especially in foreign policy. So, any foreign criticism must be wrong, because foreigners are just not as good or as lucky or as enlightened or as deserving as Americans.
The truth, of course, is that American government is as likely to be mistaken or mendacious as any other democratic government.
The glory of the US system is that these mistakes and mendacities WILL be exposed in time. However, the damage is often already done by then, as the system (ANY system) cannot prevent these mistakes or mendacities from happening in the first place. In this regard, I think the US electorate needs an urgent dose of Old World cynicism about their government.
Robin_Scotland
Jun 23 2004, 12:01 PM
After mulling this over, I decided to vote 'yes'. Of course there is no real right answer here, there are what...some 250 million Americans, and their feelings on foreign opinion varies greatly. But I decided to go with my own experiences with Americans when debating issues (a lot of this comes from AD) and the responses I have gotten over the years. Generally, most American people I have spoken too have been interested in the outsider view, or even better, have looked at me as a complete equal; the fact that I was not American was not an issue when debating US policies. On the occasions that I found my opinion
was dismissed based on my place of birth, I felt that the people ignoring my views were too closed-minded or stubborn to have a real debate with anyway.
This reminds me of a debate I was having recently, over the position of England in the United Kingdom. At the moment, the European Championships (soccer tournament for European nations) is under way, and England were beaten by France at the very end of the game. A lot of Northern Irish, Scots and Welsh that I know decided to point out how funny this was, and the response from the English on the forum was not good. It is true that people in England (about 5 sixths of the total population) feel that the rest of the UK do not support them at sport. Personally, I do... but the fact of the matter is some of my English friends who decided to lash out at me when I congratulated France are suffering from being the 'big cheese'. England is the biggest nation within the UK, and hence the smaller nations are always looking to score points off it; to criticize and attack whenever they can. It doesn't necessarily mean people hate England because they are jealous (these people do exist somewhere though), but rather that they feel small and insignificant in comparison, and when it comes to sports in particular, a little left out.
A strange comparison I know, but I think that the rest of the world views America in the same way. We are all affected by US policies, we all have an interest in the presidential election, and I am sure we are all more than a little intimidated by the sheer power of the United States. Foreign criticism of the US does not stem from jealousy or hatred (for the most part). When I criticize a US policy, it is because I want to see the only superpower being a force for good. Everyone will have their own opinion on what is good, but with great power comes great responsibility (sorry thats over used

) and the world has as much right to criticize as the American people.
Cadman
Jun 23 2004, 12:52 PM
Nicely put Robin_Scotland and Julian for me being an American I was so embarrased when some of our American society joined the bandwagon about renaming food items like french toast and french fries just because the French did not support our wanting to go an invade Iraq. I don't know if it comes from my hertiage or not being Irish, French Canadian, Scottish, Bohemian to name the few I can think of right now.

I guess it boils down to like Robin_Scotland put that the majority of the world is interested in what America does because we are supposed to be the super power or what ever you want to equate us as, but it is sad when we can't handle the same criticizism from foreign countries that we do to them.
Mrs. Pigpen
Jun 23 2004, 02:15 PM
QUOTE(Cadman @ Jun 23 2004, 05:52 AM)
I guess it boils down to like Robin_Scotland put that the majority of the world is interested in what America does because we are supposed to be the super power or what ever you want to equate us as, but it is sad when we can't handle the same criticizism from foreign countries that we do to them.
I hear this a lot. Populations in many countries have been vocally critical (though usually less so than now) of the US for as long as I can remember. That is because, as was mentioned, our policies generally affect them directly. It is only VERY VERY recently, by comparison, that any significant portion of our population has openly and heated criticized other countries so unabashedly (mostly just the French). So, yes, we can take the criticism that we dish out, as referenced by the fact that we have taken it in spades through the years and never truly lashed out.
To answer the question, yes, most Americans in general care. Some are downright obsequious, and others are indifferent. I think many have been oblivious to foreign policy (and therefore completely ignorant of the criticism we have been receiving) until recently because they never personally felt the effects, or understood them. Ask the average American five years ago, and they would have never known we had troops stationed in Saudi, or a longstanding air occupation over Iraq. Other countries that I am familiar with (mostly Europe and Korea) have extremely well informed populations by comparison. Unfortunately, that information is often one-sided.
Edited to add: Reading through the above, I sound sort of critical, which I don't mean to be. I
love almost everything about Europe, and foreigners in general. I value their opinions greatly. I do get a little frustrated, though, because I have a lot of family overseas and have been subject to their criticism of our government for years (though always very politely). When I hear an American state that we can't take what we dish out (a
very common bromide these days), it's hard for me to understand where that comes from.
Fife and Drum
Jun 23 2004, 02:19 PM
With so much apathy in our country I think those who don’t care enough about our own affairs could care less about foreign opinions, or if they did pay attention to foreign opinions they more than likely wouldn’t objectively consider them. However for those individuals who do take interest in our country, they should pay attention to foreign opinions, I certainly do.
I always enjoy reading the posts from our international members. They often add perspective that can only come from not looking into the American mirror. I have several British friends that I correspond with on a weekly basis and I’ve always been impressed with their concern and knowledge of not only their own issues but those of the United States. I’ve always considered Britain as an older and wiser sibling, there are lessons to be learned from their experience.
Robin Scotland’s footie analogy (which by the way, that Wayne Rooney kid must be something) hits the nail on the head. It’s been said here many times that when the U.S. sneezes the rest of the world catches a cold, so I can see why they have a vested interest.
I only hope we have the manners to cover our face when we do sneeze and the grace to hand out the zinc tablets.
carlitoswhey
Jun 23 2004, 03:19 PM
I personally care a great deal about international feelings about America. Having lived and worked overseas fairly extensively, I do see that "America bashing" comes and goes in cycles. Those who say it's worse than ever seem to forget the anti-Reagan / no nuke demonstrations in the 80's, for instance. As you can probably see from my posts, what irks me is when those who are against some aspect of America feel liberated to speak against our country when they are outside its borders - witness Madonna, the Dixie Chicks, Michael Moore, etc. It bugs me like we are airing our dirty linen for the world to see, and strikes me as pandering to the audience, which I guess is what celebrities do... Similarly, when John Kerry or someone over-emphasizes how the French feel about our foreign policy, they think that Americans are too naive to note that French policy is based on French interests, not ours. As if we are the only self-interested nation, while the other great nations of the world are true globalists.
That said, other nations are always going to get more news on America than we do on other nations. We are not as closed-minded or simple as we are portrayed. I mean, if there weren't fly/drive junkets to Orlando or cheap flights to Mallorca, would 80% of Englanders bother to have passports either? Maybe passports are weather-related.
Robin, your football analogy made me smile too - having had the pleasure of watching matches in Scotland where the drink special included beer from whatever country England is playing
To the specific question - I love hearing from the non-US posters on this board. Please keep visiting.
Chiefdork
Jun 23 2004, 04:12 PM
I voted no, as I have traveled and been stationed in the Middle East, Asia and Europe I find a lot of people either love the US or hate it. I myslef do not care what someone in Ghana thinks of the govenor of Wyoming just as I'm sure a Turk could care less what someone in New York thinks about the mayor on Ankara.
Aquilla
Jun 23 2004, 04:30 PM
I am struck reading through this thread about a couple of things. It seems to me that with very few if any exceptions, it is nearly impossible to really discern if a poster here is American or not based on what they have to say and what positions they take. My friends
Moif and
Julian who I know from another UK-based forum sound a whole lot like American liberals. I know others from that forum who sound a whole lot like American conservatives. And this strikes me from the standpoint that it demonstrates that our differences are far out-weighed by our similarities. We do basically share the same values, but like liberals and conservatives in the US, we have different ideas on how to implement those values. When we disagree, it is a family spat, like two siblings arguing over who gets to sit in the front seat of the car. And I see American foreign relations in a very similar fashion, even with the French.
Freedom fries and Freedom toast are silly little things that brothers and sisters do to more or less "tease" each other, but they are still brother and sister and will remain that way. France and the US are and have been close friends and strong allies for a very long time and will remain that way and you bet Americans value that friendship and realize that we both need it to continue to be strong. We hear so many stories of our differences over things like Iraq and hear the doom-sayers tell us how US-French relations have been irreparably damaged and then the next thing you know, the French are catching some terrorists about to blow up something in Paris that the US tipped them off about. Or American authorities are arresting a terrorist arriving at JFK airport that the French have tipped them off about. Irreparable harm in relations? Hardly, sounds like we're working together pretty darn well in the grander scheme of things. We are at the end of the day, closer in our similarities than we are separated by our differences. And, yes, Americans do value that, cherish it actually.
What I would like to see in this forum though are people who represent much different perspectives and cultures, most notably Muslim cultures. It would be interesting and informative to hear their view on things I think. It would also be interesting to see how the variety of people here might respond to that.
moif
Jun 23 2004, 09:37 PM
Do Americans care about international feelings?
I voted no. I don't believe, despite the many fine Americans I've met online, that the majority of Americans even knows what the rest of the world thinks, let alone cares about they feel.
For my part, I've become very critical of the United States since Bill Clinton left office. Perhaps I've even become anti American in that regard, I don't know... but I will say this; I often am very critical of my brothers (I have two younger brothers) but that does not mean I don't love them! They will always have my support as long as they do the right thing.
But if they mess up, if they act foolish or hurt other people without cause, then I'll tell them exactly what I think.
Cube Jockey
Jun 23 2004, 10:04 PM
Do Americans care about international feelings?
I personally care very much about international feelings.
However, I am much more skeptical of what the average American thinks. If the average person cared about international feelings then much of the criticism received the last few years wouldn't have yielded things like "freedom fries", it would have caused people to stop and think "hmmm, are we doing the right thing?" Maybe after thinking about it some people would say we are, but I don't think anyone has ever really stopped to think about that (members of AD excluded of course).
Danya
Jun 23 2004, 10:19 PM
I voted 'No'. Not because that is my personal belief but because overall that is what I perceive 'America's' attitude is.
Piper Plexed
Jun 24 2004, 12:08 AM
I voted yes. the funny things is my yes is for the same reason cube Jockey voted no!

I believe Freedom fries is an emotional reaction to the perception that France does not really care for our needs. I liken it to 2 siblings in the heat of argument saying to each other "Your not my Brother any more and by the way take this stupid toy back cause it stinks" That level of animosity does not stem from Indifference. Another concern is that we Americans rarely ever hear about what others feel we have done right. For me personally it is very hard to hear the endless list of our ineptitudes without creating a shell to protect myself. This in no way means I do not care or listen, it only means that I may not comment as some topics fall into the hopeless to get my point or feelings across realm.

In the end I value non-American posts more than you folks will ever know.
Titus
Jun 24 2004, 12:43 AM
I voted yes because, although we won't seek approval from other nations, we will ask for their input.
Robin makes a great example of the reversal of my rationale. The rest of the world is affected by the policies and politicians of the US. No doubt about it.
Now, Aquilla ol buddy ol pal! While I won't argue that the French and the US agencies who are working together to stop terror are making considerablr progress, I want to add something.
The French people... hate our guts. My French teacher(lol, oui, J'etude le langue Francaise even though I think France has gone downhill since after deGualle) knew about my plans to enter the service and warned me about the fact that they have quite a disdain for American soldiers... but, who knows. (And I'll try to stay away from the real rationale behind France's antiwar move)
Now, the UK and the US, now that's a healthy relationship. Am I wrong Robin?
Long story short, I voted yes because... I care.
redliner1989
Jun 24 2004, 03:59 AM
I voted Yes. I do think Americans care, however we know that caring should not overshadow our beliefs.
We are a country born from the cast offs of other countries. This created a rebel spirit that I for one (as I descended from these cast offs), hopes never dies. We are unique in that way.
Citizens of other Countries, not born from what the United States was born from, probably have a hard time understanding this, anymore then I can understand why we are still involved in Bosnia, when this is at the back door of Germany and France. Seems bizarre.
Just my two cents.
Red
Robin_Scotland
Jun 24 2004, 08:05 PM
QUOTE(Titus @ Jun 24 2004, 12:43 AM)
Now, the UK and the US, now that's a healthy relationship. Am I wrong Robin?
I'd say so. I don't know anyone who despises or hates America (the Bush administration is another matter, more critics than supporters by far in the UK). There are those who are critics of globalization, capitalism and the rich-poor gap (particularly in the 'North', where socialist ideals are tradition) and unfortunately for America, it tends to get caught up in that. Another big issue among British people I know is the environment and the consumption of natural resources. But on the whole, despite the UK being
generally more similar to France on policies, British people do have a healthy relationship with the US.
However, I don't think there is a massive difference between the average French citizen and the average British citizen. I've no doubt there are French people who have blind hatred for the US, but again most French people I actually know are much more open minded and sensible than that. The French despise America as much as Americans despise France in my opinion: a very small percentage of both populations are that easily led. Throughout my Internet journeys I have seen just as much irrational criticism of France by Americans as vice versa.
kalabus
Jun 25 2004, 12:14 AM
I care wholeheartedly. I often go in foreign chat rooms just to gain perspective. I think democrats care I do not think republicans currently have that luxery. The rest of the world barring Israel is wanting and hoping that Bush does not get reelected. If you still support Bush I do not see how you can say you care what other nations think because every other Western Style democracy and ally thinks it is a necessity that Bush is not reelected except for Israel.
As a frequent internet traveller I have encountered quite a bunch a French people. The French/American arguments go like this generally.
Name calling back and forth. "American person: If It wasnt for us you would be speaking German." "French person: America did nothing in that war. French soldiers are better then Americas" American guy: Thats why our soldiers lay in graves in France and the French's second greatest general was a 14 year old illiterate peasant girl? How can you say we did nothing? Was D-day a mirage?" French Guy :"They are dead because they were poor soldiers, we wish you would get them out of here they stink up our country. We would have won without the US in fact the US soldiers were so poor it ended up taking longer." American Guy: Well your Germany's little weak sidekick. You are such a weak nation you attach yourself to the Germans a nation with true military history." and blah blah blah. It goes both ways and from what I see Americans exagerate and embellish while French people deny and alter. I have heard French people say to me that America has never won a war.
The biggest war arhuments on-line are between Canadians and Americans. The most notable being the war of 1812 and the botched American inavsions of Canada.
Anyway French people have always detested and despised Americans. They hate our world influence and this isnt speaking as an American. They do the same in the EU trying to assert French language and Franco-german policies. They hate that their great society has been lessened. They have always resisted anything initiated by the US. It took forever to drag them into Kosovo even...A european war. Degaulle even resisted all things American.
I have a great deal of respet for most nations in Europe but France isnt one of them. I am not speaking to everyone but alot of the peopel I have met and talked with.
The biggest problem with the US and the rest of the world is the issue of politics. What is considered a liberal in the US would be a conservative in virtually every single one of our allies. What America considers a conservative would be to far right in any other nation except the US to get elected. I mean Tony Blair is 5 times farther left then Al Gore or Howard Dean or Kucinich. The US is right of center on any political spectrum or compass.
Alan Wood
Jun 26 2004, 07:19 AM
Thanks a bunch for responding.
Even more thanks for saying what you want to say and in the way you want to say it.
Regards........Alan
englishman
Jun 26 2004, 03:52 PM
It is interesting that the lady from Vegas says she has more understanding now of what America is doing int the world. why is this I wonder. has your news got suddenly got better, is she reading Micheal Moore? What?
The best i can do here is to give my perspective of what London is like now, how we see the Americans.
Generally, in spite of people saying, 'surely they won't vote Bush in again, will they?' Americans are still seen as brash, loud, insensitive bullies [especially in an international sense], yes I know about our not so distant colonial atrocities, but most Brits will distance themselves from that and see it as very unfortunate period of our history. Your prez, doesn't seem to have learnt from history and his neo colonialism is poisoning the world.
At this time I would say that there is an un precedented anti american atmosphere here in London, like nothing i have ever known. This is the directly of George Bushs policies in the middle east
Many people are terrified by the apparent paranoia of the FBI and we generally think that americans thought Iraq and Saddam were linked to 9/11, which they weren't.
I have many american friends and travel often, in fact i was in nyc on 9/11. i feel for the liberals, the questioning americans, but unfortunately now, we do not hear their voices enough
Mrs. Pigpen
Jun 28 2004, 03:14 AM
QUOTE(englishman @ Jun 26 2004, 08:52 AM)
It is interesting that the lady from Vegas says she has more understanding now of what America is doing int the world. why is this I wonder. has your news got suddenly got better, is she reading Micheal Moore? What?
Hee, hee. No Michael Moore.

I think the average American is paying much closer attention to our foreign policy decisions since 9/11. It woke people up. Folks are becoming more knowledgeable, and increasingly politically active. I think that 9/11 even had a large part in sparking the idea for this forum by Mike and Jaime (if I remember correctly).
DreamPipEr
Jun 28 2004, 03:28 AM
I voted yes. Personally I have always cared what people thought but I never wanted my government to act only on the basis of a foreigner's thoughts. When those thoughts are constructive then they have more appeal. When they are downright rude, like:
QUOTE
Americans are still seen as brash, loud, insensitive bullies [especially in an international sense],
then well I personally have a lesser view of those thoughts and will tune them out. If you want to be heard then be constructive. People in glasses houses shouldn't throw stones.
Ultimatejoe
Jun 28 2004, 05:53 AM
QUOTE
Personally I have always cared what people thought but I never wanted my government to act only on the basis of a foreigner's thoughts. When those thoughts are constructive then they have more appeal.
You know, the voices of popular opinion get the most airtime, but most political leaders actually engage in constructive dialogue. The sense of international resentment has more to do with Bush's (and earlier Presidents) ignoring this dialogue, the constructive sort. In fact, the sort of thoughts you are referring to are precisely what the U.N. exists for; even if that organization has become crippled by inefficiency, bureacracy and corruption. That does not change the fact that as the pre-eminent international political forum, it is largely ignored by the United States as well. (I realize this isn't the place to debate the merits of the U.N., just trying to elucidate my earlier sentiments.)
DreamPipEr
Jun 28 2004, 03:17 PM
The thing is that Alan asked if American’s care about international feelings. I did not take this thread to mean let me come on and tell you how horrible I think the American people are. Too many American’s have accepted this stereo type as OK and a part of who we are. I don’t, it is disrespectful and certainly isn’t going to entice me to listen. Furthermore this stereo type can be applied towards the many Europeans I have met and lived with but I don’t generalize Europeans in such a manner. It is not OK to be uncivil and it is not OK to take an opportunity, that wasn’t asked for, to spew a stereotype.
Not everyone is going to agree with the actions of any given government. But this thread isn’t about whether we agree with the actions of the government it is about whether we care about international opinion. I care about opinions but that doesn’t mean I will always agree with them.
UJ, I respect your comments, whether I agree with them or not is irrelevant, but your criticism of the US and its policies are thought out. I will read what you have to say. You can bring a horse to water but you can’t force it to drink. My point was if the international folks want you listen and perhaps change your mind then be constructive. If the international folks want to hold obnoxious stereo types as their view of American’s then it is only natural that I will not care to listen to them. Perhaps they have some great ideas, but I will never know because they weren’t civil enough to be constructive in the first place.
Alan Wood
Jun 28 2004, 03:36 PM
DreamPipEr.
You are absolutely correct in assuming that brashness is not only attributable to Americans.
In Australia we call them 'okkers'.
It should be added at this point that we in Oz also care for the ordinary Americans viewpoint and the feedback from AD helps us come to terms with what is happening in the world right now.
Regards.............Alan
moif
Jun 28 2004, 04:10 PM
DreamPipErQUOTE
My point was if the international folks want you listen and perhaps change your mind then be constructive. If the international folks want to hold obnoxious stereo types as their view of American’s then it is only natural that I will not care to listen to them. Perhaps they have some great ideas, but I will never know because they weren’t civil enough to be constructive in the first place.
I don't think the majority of the planet
wants to look upon Americans by means of stereo types, but are forced to do so by the nature and contradiction of American culture.
On the one hand America talks of freedom and democracy, on the other America does all it can to keep much of the worlds population as second or even third class citizens. An example of what I mean is a friend of mine who wished to travel to New York for a short break and vacation. Having called the US embassy in Copenhagen she was called over for an interview. Upon arrival at the embassy she was then informed that her friend was not allowed inside, that she must leave her bags outside (lucky her friend was along to hold onto her bags) and upon entry was subjected to a full body search. She was then left to wait two hours in a line before finally being admitted into the presence of an official who then charged her 700kr for the privilege of the interview. Upon asking whther or not she could have a visa she was informed that she would be notified at a later date once her request had been cleared. The entire interview lasted ten minutes. Including the cost of the air flight to reach Copenhagen, the entire experience cost her $344US and one full day off work.
..and she has yet to be issued with a Visa which might not come at all.
Its this sort of treatment that gets on people's nerves. Fear of terrorism is one thing, but a Dane might ask herself why she is being subjected to this sort of paranoia from an ally when a flight to London costs next to nothing and does not require a full body search or an entry visa. (I might just as well add that I once visited Poland during the days of communism and the experience then was much the same only it cost less but took longer)
One might also ponder on the question; if this is how a Dane is treated by America, then how are the citizens of other nations, such as those not a part of the coalition forces or NATO treated? The international press is rife with
examples of American arrogance towards outsiders but these don't really have any impact on you until it actually affects you. When some US marine is 'frisking you down' in your own capital because you wish to visit New York, then you are left with a distinct disinclination to have anything to do with America or Americans and you start to wonder just why exactly is your government supporting the United States if the USA is unable to distinguish between a terrorist, a journalist or a tourist!
Take this sort of experience and then magnify it with all the stories one hears from back packers and globe trotters (of which Denmark has many) regarding Americans wearing Canadian flags to avoid being recognized ...with the daily news items of the latest example's of American folly (the unfair election/ disregard for Kyoto/ Abu Graib) ...with the documentaries from America which portray it as a land gripped by Christian orthodoxy and with a President who invokes God at any chance he gets (ANY president) and then compare these to the extreme violence and lack of depth of American art (cinema) and the only conclusion left is that these stereotypes are not the construct of hostile non Americans (circa 6 billion human beings) but rather the product of decades of American arrogance compounded now by the worst American government in living memory.
DreamPipEr
Jun 28 2004, 07:49 PM
Actually Moif, those concerns are my concerns as well. The American's are not only subjecting Danes or other friendly nations to body searches. They are subjecting themselves. A friend of mine had a full cavity search when she went to Bermuda for a quick weekend getaway. EWWWWW....
I'm not saying that the American government has responded in a right way because of terrorism fears. I am not saying that criticism isn't warranted just don't expect to be heard when that criticism is wrapped around cheap shots. Expect that if cheap shots are used, especially too frequently, that you could very well be pushing away the same people who are willing to listen. I understand that in anger and/or frustration that people will resort to trying to demoralize another but that does not make it right or OK. Don't we want to foster communication?
moif
Jun 28 2004, 11:04 PM
DreamPipErQUOTE
Actually Moif, those concerns are my concerns as well. The American's are not only subjecting Danes or other friendly nations to body searches. They are subjecting themselves. A friend of mine had a full cavity search when she went to Bermuda for a quick weekend getaway. EWWWWW....
QUOTE
I'm not saying that the American government has responded in a right way because of terrorism fears. I am not saying that criticism isn't warranted just don't expect to be heard when that criticism is wrapped around cheap shots. Expect that if cheap shots are used, especially too frequently, that you could very well be pushing away the same people who are willing to listen. I understand that in anger and/or frustration that people will resort to trying to demoralize another but that does not make it right or OK. Don't we want to foster communication?
The problem with this is that few people believe the United States listens to anything it doesn't want to hear, cheap shots or not. I cannot speak for how non Europeans think but the majority of anti US sentiment in Europe comes from many years of having to play second fiddle to the USA.
For a long time, it was accepted that due to the out come of the second world war and due to Europe's own internal failings, this was the way things had to be, so it was endured. For decades the resentment was tempered by the hard reality of the cold war and then the cold war ended.
Unfortunately, American dominance did not. Fifteen years later we're still being dictated to by an over bearing and now openly malignant US and like a coin polished too many times, the value is worn away.
Today, the USA still has the chance to redeem its self. The lesson is that power corrupts, and we all know what absolute power does... Few people truly hate the USA (yet) but the cold hard reality is that America will be judged by all its actions. Not just the ones which are portrayed in the media.
Robin_Scotland
Jun 29 2004, 10:57 AM
I would agree with Moif that a lot of European concerns with the US are about its power (if it isn't absolute power yet then it is approaching on it) in the post-Cold War period. This doesn't mean that Europe is envious or jealous of this power (although I daresay there are EU bureaucrats that are after the same level of power with the EU), but rather that power does corrupt, and that there are no exceptions to this rule.
In the UK, easily the USA's closest EU ally, most informed and intellectual people are not critical of the American people, and I for one do not think stereotypes apply. These cheap shots can just as easily be turned around on us with negative stereotypes (particularly of the Franco-German/"Old Europe" side of the EU). I personally am critical of recent US foreign policies (and concerned by domestic issues such as the Patriot Act) but not of the American people. If anything, it is the American people I am concerned for. I would like to see the EU grow as I am an internationalist, but not to spite the US - rather to stand alongside the US and our other allies. This is why I am sad when I hear that so many American people are critical of the UN to the point of wanting to pull out rather than reform.
There are many other countries more deserving of criticism than the US, but I look upon the US as a close ally and key player in world politics and democracy. When the US does something that I feel is contrary to the belief in democracy and freedom, it is not the American people I am angry at, but the people who apparently represent you. As an ally, I am concerned for the US when its independent power grows. Allies were needed for the war in Iraq, but they were hardly needed in a military sense. If it comes to the point that the US can do whatever it wants without any allies, then I think we all have good reason to be concerned and critical.
Julian
Jun 29 2004, 04:47 PM
It's interesting that, at the time of writing, nearly a third of Americans don't care about international feelings.
Given that members here are somewhat more engaged with politics and the world than the average Joe, I wonder if the population as a whole wouldn't be closer to balanced, or even have a majority would would vote "no" to this question.
And, I wonder if that isn't one of the reasons why the international "community" is so critical of America.
(Isn't that a silly phrase - non-Americans are no more uniform than the gay "community" or the black "community" - like them, we have only one thing in common)
Mrs. Pigpen
Jun 29 2004, 04:55 PM
Keep in mind, Julian, the poll question is not,"Do you, as an American, care about international feelings?", but "Do Americans in general care...?" Many posters (some of whom are international themselves) who DO care might vote 'no' based on their perception OF OTHERS. This isn't exactly a representative sample of the individual opinions at America's debate.
Julian
Jun 29 2004, 05:08 PM
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Jun 29 2004, 05:55 PM)
Keep in mind, Julian, the poll question is not,"Do you, as an American, care about international feelings?", but "Do Americans in general care...?" Many posters (some of whom are international themselves) who DO care might vote 'no' based on their perception OF OTHERS. This isn't exactly a representative sample of the individual opinions at America's debate.
Hmm. that's a fair point. I respectfully withdraw my earlier comments to this effect.
Piper Plexed
Jun 29 2004, 05:08 PM
QUOTE
Do Americans care about international feelings.
Yes.
[ 24 ]
[57.14%]
Don't know.
[ 6 ]
[14.29%]
No.
[ 12 ]
[28.57%]
Total: 42 vote
Lets see
12 out of 42 votes NO
30 out of 42 yes or undecided.
Now to be undecided is in essence to care just not wishing (you have to care enough to decide that you can't decide) to take a stand at this point. So I round it out at a quarter of Americans polled on AD do not care about international opinion. I think that is pretty good considering the international political climate today. Actually I was pleasantly surprised.
Devils Advocate
Jun 29 2004, 07:12 PM
Piper Plexed:
QUOTE
...the poll question is not,"Do you, as an American, care about international feelings?", but "Do Americans in general care...?" Many posters (some of whom are international themselves) who DO care might vote 'no' based on their perception OF OTHERS. This isn't exactly a representative sample of the individual opinions at America's debate.
I would say that Americans do care in general. My personal experiences have proven so. I know whenever I come accros someone from another country that didn't grow up in the US I always ask what they think of America and what the opinion is back in their home country. Also I know that most of my friends are eager to know as well. I think Americans may
seem apathetic, but they are generally curious and inquisitive whether or not they like the answers to their questions.
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