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La Herring Rouge
The arguments concerning the abuses rampant in the world of prostitution are all true but they are overlooking a major point. This thread is about the legalization of prostitution NOT about whether or not prostitution is moral. We do not make laws in this country (or we aren't supposed to make them) based solely upon morality. Something should only be illegal if doing it inhibits others' (or arguably the individual's) basic rights. Because some people don't like prostitution is not reason enough to make it illegal. The arguments against marijuana weren't that it was immoral. Specialists? told the committee that it was dangerous and made people crazy. They also moralized saying things like (to paraphrase), "It makes black men think they are as good as white men." and, "It makes black men rape white women."
This is the danger of moralizing when making law!

It is completely feasible that, by legalizing prostitution and imposing rules, the profession would become safer for the workers and clients. As far as worrying about people being used as commodities or sex objects...well, you had better turn off your television and stop going to the movies if you take that seriously! I worry about the young victims of sex abuse (because THEY are not choosing). I would never deny an adult their choice to choose that route. I would caution them of the dangers and hope they make smart choices. If it were legal I would certainly worry less about their safety.

I think back to the "back alley" abortions going on before it was made legal....
....and I hear the chants about whose body it is...

As an aside: It disturbs me that people are talking about negative aspects of being a prostitute and then comparing it with other professions. There was was nod to lawyers but, in general people have somehow determined that being a garbageman is nearly as despicable. The fact that certain careers come up (blue collar) and others don't (white collar) is a sign of a predjudice I have witnessed as a contractor all too often. Collecting garbage is not only demanding but it is necessary AND very lucrative for many. I think that the context in which the job was placed is a bit insulting ....
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Paladin Elspeth
I do not look down on garbage collectors. They provide a valuable service. thumbsup.gif And they do clean up at the end of the day.

As I mentioned earlier, this thread was posted under Principles and Personal Philosophy. I suggest that if morality is to be kept out of the debate for/against the legalization of prostitution, it should be moved to a forum under a different heading.
Ringwraith
Should we Legalize Prostitution?

Yes. I honestly believe that the negative aspects of Prostitution (and there are some lets not kid ourselves) would be greatly decreased by the legalization of it. I think many folks might be shocked to discover just how widespread prostitution is. The advent of the internet has made it possible for prostitution to go "mainstream" in a way that was never even dreamed of 15 years ago. The genie is WAY out of the bottle on this one. Don't believe me? Look up some of the websites where it is discussed openly (if only in code). In the city I live in, I can find literally hundreds of women that do this for a living advertising on the Internet. Law enforcement halfheartdly tries to enforce the laws on this, but I believe it is an incredible waste of time and resources to spend time investigating and prosecuting people on a crime that is essentially victimless. In this day and age, don't we all agree we have WAY more pressing problems?....(like Homeland Security for instance?).

Who is harmed by prostitution?

Difficult question to answer. There are valid arguements made by those who do not want this behavior legalized about victimization. But the fact remains the VAST majority of those who participate in prostitution are making a conscious individual choice to do so. To my way of thinking then the so called "victims" are victims of their own decisions. People make decisions every day which are not in their own best interests, but we can't legislate against bad decisions. Just my .02 cents.
La Herring Rouge
Sorry Paladin Elspeth if I camne across too strongly about the Garbagemen mrsparkle.gif

I'm not saying that people are purposely being demeaning to Garbagepeople or other laborers.
I was was trying to show people how, in our culture, there is an unspoken hirearchy of legitimacy that often finds its way into words.

Example: If we were debating about abusive people and suddenly people start talking about men in the South we would be doing the same thing. Because there are stereotypes it is natural to speak to them by way of example. However, I would hope that someone would come on and point out that there are plenty of "abusive" women in the north... (even if they aren't wearing wife-beaters) whistling.gif

You are right about the location of this thread. I didn't intend to take morality out of the debate entirely, just to show how it can be dangerous. When talking about laws morality simply can't be the major factor in deciding (even though it often is of late).

I enjoy the debate about the morality of various sexual "deviances". If we are to say that having sex with strangers for profit is immoral then is it NOT immoral if you take no profit?
If it IS immoral to be promiscuous then should it not be made as illegal as prostitution?

I have seen plenty of sexually "open" people suffer from bad choices in my years in the bar business. I could easily equate the barfly lifestyle with prostitution...
Paladin Elspeth
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Sorry Paladin Elspeth if I camne across too strongly about the Garbagemen  mrsparkle.gif
No problem at all. thumbsup.gif
QUOTE
I was was trying to show people how, in our culture, there is an unspoken hirearchy of legitimacy that often finds its way into words.
And quite successfully, I might add. It has everything to do with value judgements. Following the poor garbageman example, I would rather have a conference of garbagemen convene in my city every year than see a steady influx of the riff-raff that are commonly drawn to and hang around places where there are prostitutes.
QUOTE
I enjoy the debate about the morality of various sexual "deviances". If we are to say that having sex with strangers for profit is immoral then is it NOT immoral if you take no profit?
If it IS immoral to be promiscuous then should it not be made as illegal as prostitution?
According to the Christian guidebook it is immoral. But could you imagine how few people would still be OUTSIDE the jail were a law against promiscuity to be enforced? unsure.gif In a theocracy it would be as illegal as well as immoral, and the punishment would be severe.* I think we all have reason to be thankful for the deliberate separation of church and state in our country when we consider that stonings would be commonplace for things such as fornication.
QUOTE
I have seen plenty of sexually "open" people suffer from bad choices in my years in the bar business. I could easily equate the barfly lifestyle with prostitution...
And that's really my point. I see prostitution as self-destructive, with a lot of drawbacks (when we speak of consequences) and few redeeming factors for a society that openly tolerates it. While it is perfectly possible to like a prostitute as a person while despising what she does, the nature of her work makes it difficult for those who would make that distinction to associate with her as a friend. Unless she is really quiet and careful to keep what she is doing a secret, or she becomes a Heidi Fleiss, she will have her "friends in low places" and scarcely anywhere else.
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*It's a darn good thing that the main character of the Christian guidebook included, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," eh? wink2.gif
La Herring Rouge
QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Aug 14 2004, 11:53 AM)
QUOTE
I was was trying to show people how, in our culture, there is an unspoken hirearchy of legitimacy that often finds its way into words.
And quite successfully, I might add. It has everything to do with value judgements. Following the poor garbageman example, I would rather have a conference of garbagemen convene in my city every year than see a steady influx of the riff-raff that are commonly drawn to and hang around places where there are prostitutes.

Be careful of what you ask for, garbagemen keep VERY odd hours. I hardly think you would enjoy a horde of garbage can rattling, big truck driving insomniacs lurking outside your home at 3 A.M. tongue.gif


It is true that prostitution is often a manifestation of self-destructive behavior.
There is a correlation (which I will attempt to link if necessary) between sexual abuse, psychological disorders and deviant sexual behavior. (Freud is coming back with experiementation to back him this time) You could just look up discussions with Dr. Drew on this one also...

That being said, there are also a number of psychological disorders and deviant behaviors associated with climbing the ladder in big business! (this includes drug abuse, deviant sexual behavior, criminal behavior, etc..)

If we want to criminalize a profession because of the detriment it causes to those who do it we need to start making one heck of a long list. The reality is that SEX is the only significant difference between the evils of that job compared to any other. We are trying to decide if it is ok for some people to have sex for reasons other than love. Biologically, scientifically, and rationally I can see no reason why there is anything wrong with it.
As it is now, being an underground movement rife with evils I cannot say it is a good thing to do. If it were made legal and more young women decided to pay their way through college by protituting themselves I think we would be plunged into a purely religious, morality argument however, so I guess we need to think about that ahead of time.
ibelsd
Hmm. I had no idea how glamourous prostitution could be, nor how it has been taken that I presented it as such. Note, that your stats on prositution come from a country in which it is currently illegal in most places. As such, their relevancy is certainly questionable. And then, I suppose, I am a little confused by the remainder of your text since you freely mixed quotes between various people. Chutzpah? Becuase I feel adults can choose their line of work, it is out of line for me to be critical or judgemental of their choices? That simply makes little sense at all.


Edited to remove lenghty and therefore confusing quote. If you are going to quote a member please reduce the quote to the pertinent portions.
Looms
Paladin Elspeth, there is just one thing that I, for the life of me, am unable to understand. Why is it that all the moralistic ones care so much about forcing everyone else to follow their way? Why? Why must you grab people by the throat saying "I'll force you to be happy, even if you don't enjoy another day in your life!" Why this need to have your morality dictate life for everyone else? You don't see the other side of the argument saying prostitution should be mandatory, right? Why not show people the same respect by allowing them to choose their own way in the world without interference from idiotic and invasive laws? Prostitution is legal in Nevada. Does that keep you up at night? Does it affect you in any way? If not, why oh why do you still feel others should be denied this? Why is it so hard to show the same tolerance for other people's way of living? Should I now try to get the Christianity outlawed, because I personally feel it is an oppressive cult, responsible for countless lives lost in history? Would you like it if I succeeded, and my morality was forced on you? If you had to sneak into an "underground" church and a cop posing as a priest arrested you for coming to confession? Somehow I doubt it.

And since you brought up karma earlier in the debate... If people are leaving you alone, doing their own thing, it is usually wise to do the same. You try to strongarm them into your way of living, don't be surprised if some other group comes along and does the same thing to you.
OlympiaManet
Should we Legalize Prostitution?

No. I vote for decriminalization only because the industry has its own standards and is pretty much self regulated re: business practices. Regulation would still allow for a black market to exist and vice would still be required.

Many ladies (and guys) already have themselves set-up as businesses to write off expenses and file taxes. With the amount of money that ladies (and guys) make is it essential that they account for their income and save for retirement.

"Management" ie: pimps who beat up on girls is very RARE from what I can tell. Clients do not like having 3rd parties in their business because it of the issue of privacy. It is much easier (and more profitable) to work without a manager unless a woman has very few business skills (I am referring to actual business not sexual ability). The only reason I see for working for another person is if the woman does not have a lot of time or she needs assistance with things. ie: part-timers and women who prefer not to handle the "back end" but just show up at the appointed time with a client (like with an agency). There are a LOT of opportunities to deal with reputable companies women just have to do their research.

Houses of ill repute are repressive and only promote competition and bitterness amongst the ladies as well as driving out a large portion of the competition between businesses making prices and laziness on the part of the business owners and the workers a higher possibility. The places in Nevada are awful that is why many pornstars go there only when they need a "rest" from the circuit. The house takes half the money as well as charging rent and for food. Ladies are not able to leave the house at all for weeks on end unless they get special considerations and they must be retested when they come back in before they can work again.

As far as STIs (formerly STDs) when you start working in a profession such as prostitution you tend to become more conscious of of what you are doing. You spend time learning about safer sex (formerly safe sex) practices and how to take care of yourself.

"Sexually transmitted infections don't acknowledge cash transactions. They spread with or without money, and they are spread by ignorance and lack of safe sex practices.

The majority of sexually transmitted diseases comes from high school and college age young people, about 75%, and the remainder from non commercial sexual encounters." (see link below)

"Dr. Charles Winnick, a member of the American Social Health Association and Professor of Sociology, City College of the City University of New York, has stated, 'We know from many different studies that the amount of VD attributable to prostitution is remaining fairly constant at a little under 5%, which is a negligible proportion to the amount of VD that we have.'"

Later studies indicate that VD from prostitutes is now about 3%."
http://www.iswface.org/studentinfo.htm#PRO...THS%20AND%20REA

AIDS has a low incidence of transmission, you chance of catching it is 1:1000. Genital Herpes HSV2 (permanent but rarely paid attention to) is already had by 1:5 people and the transmission rate for that is 3.8% among people who are NOT using anti-virals and 1.9% among people who are using anti-virals.

I haven't memorized any of the other ones yet. lol

Who is harmed by prostitution?

Rarely are people harmed by prostitution.

Cheating men do not go out and cheat because a woman lured him in, he went out and sought that activity. Significant others of prostitutes and their clients are hurt by that person because they are cheating, not by prostitution itself. it is merely my opinion that I would rather have someone I love patronize a reputable prostitute than to cheat on me with a woman for free.

Ladies who are harmed by violent clients or pimps could have just as easily met that person some other way and had issues with them. Their status as a prostitute is merely a vehicle for their meeting not the cause of it with the exception of the offender specifically offending because the woman is a prostitute and is seen as lower than himself (generally men are violent) and dispensable by society.

Neighborhoods with street walkers should focus on the fact that people are littering and loitering as well as enforcing public lewdness laws. While the woman may be a prostitute she is offensive not because she is a prostitute but because her actions (if she is littering, loitering or committing lewd acts) are unbecoming of a citizen and disrespectful of others. The ladies I know do not walk the street. Street walking is almost nonexistent now. The ladies I know live in nice homes and work hard for what they make. They treat others with a great deal of respect, often more than they are given.

I can't think of any other explanations for who is harmed right this moment.

Prostitution is not legal because it falls under the regulation of commerce not because of moral or immoral standing. houses were shut down because (at the time) prostitutes were vehicles of disease. but, since then tests, protection, and education has significantly increased.

BTW, Nevada is hopefully NOT the goal for deciminialized or legalized prostitution. There is no way I would ever get work in a house nor would I want to work in one. Houses in Nevada take 50% of the income plus they charge for rent and food and a whole lot of other things which suck. I will quote part of the above linked article so that you understand a little better:
QUOTE
"Prostitution is legal in Nevada.. If you want to be a prostitute so much, why don't you go work there?"

Prostitution is legal is some counties in Nevada, but that's the problem.. it's legalized, not decriminalized. The sheriff runs the business, in effect, because he makes all the rules.

For instance, in some of the houses (or brothels), the sheriff won't let the women let their customers wear condoms, because he thinks the customers won't like it.

Another problem I have with working in a house is the lack of flexability of one's schedule. When you are working in the house, you are on call 24 hours a day, and you may not pick and choose the customers you want to see. You cannot go out to dinner with them. Part of the work I enjoyed the most was being able to spend time with my clients at dinner.

Another regulation that most of the sheriffs impose on the women is that the women are not allowed to have a relationship with anyone in town. Their husbands, boyfriends and children may not live in the town where they work!

The women are required to be in off the streets of the town at a certain time, so if they don't get their shopping done before that time, they must wait until the next day.

These are not regulations that make sense, or help 'control' prostitution. They are ridiculous rules made and enforced by the government, who should not be involved in prostitution in any way, except to protect the women and their clients as they do with all persons in other businesses.


The depreciation of a womans assets is probably negative... so it's not really depreciation anymore is it? wink.gif There are a LARGE number of women who have been married before between 30 and 50 (lots of 40 yo ladies) who enter into prostitution. The older women are more sympatheic and mature. Often much more skilled and knowledgable.

And last thing, most of the prostitutes that I know either only use pot occasionally or don't want to waste their money on drugs at all. They spend it on other nice things that will help them with their business image such as nice clothes, shoes, ect. Regular feminine pursuits. lol
ibelsd
I think OMonet said a mouthful and more. Excellent points.
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Jaime
QUOTE(ibelsd @ Aug 16 2004, 03:40 PM)
I think OMonet said a mouthful and more.  Excellent points.

ibelsd - please save such one-liners for PMs. Posts within debates are required to be constructive.

TOPICS:
Should we Legalize Prostitution?

Who is harmed by prostitution?
Paladin Elspeth
QUOTE(Looms @ Aug 16 2004, 10:39 AM)
Paladin Elspeth, there is just one thing that I, for the life of me, am unable to understand. Why is it that all the moralistic ones care so much about forcing everyone else to follow their way? Why? Why must you grab people by the throat saying "I'll force you to be happy, even if you don't enjoy another day in your life!" Why this need to have your morality dictate life for everyone else? You don't see the other side of the argument saying prostitution should be mandatory, right? Why not show people the same respect by allowing them to choose their own way in the world without interference from idiotic and invasive laws? Prostitution is legal in Nevada. Does that keep you up at night? Does it affect you in any way? If not, why oh why do you still feel others should be denied this? Why is it so hard to show the same tolerance for other people's way of living? Should I now try to get the Christianity outlawed, because I personally feel it is an oppressive cult, responsible for countless lives lost in history? Would you like it if I succeeded, and my morality was forced on you? If you had to sneak into an "underground" church and a cop posing as a priest arrested you for coming to confession? Somehow I doubt it.

And since you brought up karma earlier in the debate... If people are leaving you alone, doing their own thing, it is usually wise to do the same. You try to strongarm them into your way of living, don't be surprised if some other group comes along and does the same thing to you.

Wow--I didn't realize that posting in America's Debate was tantamount to
1) forcing everyone else to follow [my] way
2) grabbing people by the throat
3) telling people "I'll force you to be happy, even if you don't enjoy another day of your life!" ohmy.gif

And I can't remember the last time I didn't allow anyone to choose their own way in the world, except telling my daughter she can't fill up on junk food before supper.

Reality check: Those "idiotic and invasive laws" have been interfering with "their way" for centuries, and I have never been a member of any legislature.
That means a whole lot of people have been doing it over a long period of time.

Does knowing that prostitution is legal in Nevada keep me up at night? No. Does knowing that I think that prostitution is wrong keep YOU up at night? I'm wondering. Quite frankly, your response, while tastefully in lower case, seems to be an overreaction. Why is it so important to you what I think?

As far as your remarks regarding Christianity, it is evident that you harbor animosity toward it, for whatever reasons. I'm not sure, however, that it is relevant to this debate. While I would prefer that you did not feel this way about it, I am not going to stay up at night and worry. I believe the actual teachings of Christianity, when learned and followed, make for a better world. I believe that prostitution does not make for a better world. Hence, my beliefs and personal philosophy, under the broader topic of Principles and Personal Philosophy.

Now, when I come across "You try to strongarm them into your way of living, don't be surprised if some other group comes along and does the same thing to you," are you referring again to me personally? I don't recall ever approaching a prostitute for any reason. So my karmic debt is -0- at this point regarding prostitutes and their livelihood. As far as the last portion of that sentence, it sounds like a veiled threat, but I'll take my chances and post my opinion, because that's what debate is about, isn't it?

I didn't realize that posting a morally conservative opinion on AD was so damaging or so potentially dangerous! unsure.gif rolleyes.gif
Looms
PE, of course you don't make any laws. That is obvious. What I was referring to is the fact that you feel laws regarding prostitution should be based on your morality. That the government should force people to do things your way because it's "better". And if they don't know what is best for them, they should be saved from themselves. Of course posting on AD does not affect the laws. But is it a stretch to assume you actually believe in what you are posting?

QUOTE
Does knowing that prostitution is legal in Nevada keep me up at night? No. Does knowing that I think that prostitution is wrong keep YOU up at night?


Nope. Anything done between consenting adults is right in my book.

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Why is it so important to you what I think?


I thought this was a debate.

QUOTE
As far as your remarks regarding Christianity, it is evident that you harbor animosity toward it, for whatever reasons. I'm not sure, however, that it is relevant to this debate. While I would prefer that you did not feel this way about it, I am not going to stay up at night and worry. I believe the actual teachings of Christianity, when learned and followed, make for a better world.


The actual teachings are great just like the actual teaching of communism are great. I was referring to the reality of the situation, where, among other things, "not judging" is certainly not the case.


QUOTE
I'm wondering. Quite frankly, your response, while tastefully in lower case, seems to be an overreaction.


No, when people go to JAIL for personal decisions that do not affect anyone non-consenting, THAT is an overreaction.

QUOTE
I believe that prostitution does not make for a better world. Hence, my beliefs and personal philosophy, under the broader topic of Principles and Personal Philosophy.


This thread is about LEGALIZING prostitution, not whether or not you like it.
I don't think morbidly obese women wearing thongs at the beach makes for a better world, but neither do I believe it should be banned.

QUOTE
Now, when I come across "You try to strongarm them into your way of living, don't be surprised if some other group comes along and does the same thing to you," are you referring again to me personally? I don't recall ever approaching a prostitute for any reason. So my karmic debt is -0- at this point regarding prostitutes and their livelihood. As far as the last portion of that sentence, it sounds like a veiled threat, but I'll take my chances and post my opinion, because that's what debate is about, isn't it?


No threats, veiled or otherwise. And I think you understand perfectly well that I was not talking about you approaching prostitutes. I was referring to the broader issue of supporting further persecution of these people because they chose to do something with their body you do not approve of.

The fact of the matter is, prostitution is only an issue that concerns the people involved. If both are consenting adults, I do not see what right the government has to get involved in it. Nanny state at it's finest.

QUOTE
I didn't realize that posting a morally conservative opinion on AD was so damaging or so potentially dangerous! unsure.gif  rolleyes.gif


Strawman. Nobody ANYWHERE in this debate said anything about how you shouldn't have your "morally conservative opinion". The issue is not that you don't like prostitutes. I think everyone in here, myself included supports your right to like whoever you choose to like. The issue is with the notion that the government has some kind of obligation to stop prostitutes from doing what they choose to do.
Paladin Elspeth
So why all the pointed rhetoric? The subject wasn't me, to begin with, but whether prostitution should be legalized or not. I say it shouldn't, for reasons already put forth in this thread, in my posts and the posts of others, especially the statistical information Lesly brought forth earlier.

(There are a lot of things I would like this government to do, for instance: don't be rubbernecking when I check a book out of the library or apply for a loan. If I want to travel to a certain country, do not say I am forbidden to do so and then claim that we have the greatest freedom in the world. And yes, I would rather see white collar criminals find their way into the slammer before the "working girls," because too often white collar criminals get off too easily. The "three strikes" ruling ties the hands of judges who could otherwise mete out a more appropriate, less Draconian punishment. I also think its wrong that gays don't get the same rights as married couples to visit their significant others in a hospital or receive the same benefits under the law if that is what they and their partners want.)

I will agree with you that this country has unfair laws and practices in many situations. But I will never provide an endorsement of prostitution as a lawful career, despite the fact that there are nice, understanding prostitutes who get a bad rap. I can like the person who is a prostitute for the person she is away from her job, but I do not condone what she does for a living. The same person who said "Judge not, lest ye be judged" and "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" also said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go and sin no more." Somehow that part gets left out of the argument. It was an object lesson for the sanctimonious crowd, and it was also an object lesson for the woman who had been framed (where was the man who entrapped her?). I find no moral inconsistency in this teaching.

Now obviously there are going to be women who decide to make their living that way, regardless of how people like me think. But there are some of us, like me, who say that there are negative consequences to the practice of prostitution and that it tends to demean women more than other occupations, that it is not a wise decision. That is my position.

And as far as the strawman goes, I couldn't pass it up. Sorry.
overlandsailor
the problem seems to me to break down like this:

Those that oppose Legalizing Prostitution think it is morally wrong and think damages the Participants.

Those that support legalization feel that any activity between consenting adults that effects no one else should be legal.

I personally side with legalization. I respect the opinions of those that oppose it but I don't understand them.

Alcohol has no redeeming benefit for society and can harm not only those who use it, but those who just happen to be in the path of the users.

should we ban it? I doubt many would support that. Should we continue with the punishments and laws in place to control it? I doubt anyone would disagree, outside of those that feel the drinking age should be 18.

Why can't we control / limit the "damage" of prostitution through legalization and regulation? Just as we do with alcohol?

Obviously no one is advocating legalization of the sex slave market of urderaged prostitutes. There would possibly be a decline in these activities to some extent if people could legally access prostitutes. Why risk arrest when you can get the same pleasures legally?

The prostitutes that are abused are usually abused not by customers, but by pimps. Legalization would likely push most pimps out of the business. This would be because legalization of the business would attract regular investors and corporations. Why work for "Willie the worm" when GE is hiring?

Edited to Add:

Furthermore, a prostitute that is abused currently have difficulting getting justice. After all, they were engaging in an illegal activity. If prostitution was legal, those who were abused would not have to fear for themselves when filing charges with the local police.

No one is suggesting street walking be legal. And legalizing prostitution would likely almost eliminate it. Why get tired legs, get rained on, too hot or too cold when you can sit in you apartment and wait for your next "date" to contact you via answering service or the internet?

Disease is not as big a problem as some believe, but it would be even less of a problem if the profession was regulated. Requiring regular testing and training in safe practices and warning signs (all paid for though fees).

Another benefit would be taxation. What if we taxed prostitution? Think of that tax revenue, combined with the licensing and testing revenues. Now what if we legislated that those revenues go to specific projects. Like city beautification, womens shelters and job training for the poor?

As for the worry that this will lead more men to cheat. Consider how many women live in apartments, drive cars and eat food, and see doctors all provided by their sugar daddys who's wives have no clue, or just don't care. They are not breaking the law, but they are no better then prostitutes. Sex for money is still sex for money.

The biggest concern for me is the concept of criminalizing an activity between consenting adults.

There were those who thought roleplaying games were morally wrong and harmed the kids playing them. What if they succeeded in getting those games banned?

There are those who still feel that marriage outside your race, or religion or class is wrong and harms the children born of such relationships. What if they managed to get legislation based on their morality?

There are those now who feel homosexuality if morally wrong and harms people. So far, they are winning. In Missouri just this month a referendum vote to add an amendment to the state constitution limiting marriage to a man and a woman passed by a 2 to 1 margin. Why is their choice to legislate against homosexuality based on their morality wrong, but choosing to legislate against prostitution based on morality OK?

I personally feel that activities between consenting adults that do not harm others should NEVER be criminalized.

And in the case where harm is caused to others it is the harm that should be prosecuted. For example, drink until you're drunk is not illegal. But hurting someone is. If you get drunk and beat someone up you will be charged with assault. The fact that you were incapacitated by alcohol is irrelevant.

Morality is fine. My morality says I will never visit a prostitute. My morality also says that I do not have the right to tell others how to live when it effects no one but themselves.
Bay State Rebel
I do not believe that soliciting one's own time and body for sexual favors should be illegal for men or women. However, I believe that directly recieving money for the sale of another's sexual services should be illegal, even if the person in question consents. This is not to say that the money cannot be used, even for the sake of advertising, but the initial transfer must be to the prostitute. In other words, the law I would support would read something like the following:

"Any person who recieves direct compensation for services of a lavicious nature in which he or she took no direct part shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than five years, or a fine of not more than five thousand dollars, or both." (Similar to section 7 of chapter 272 of the MGL, though more clear and with slightly more lenient penalties.)

The reason for this is that those who prostitue themselves are, most often, women. Historically, these women have usually had every aspect of their lives controlled by a man. Those who do not object simply to the concept of such an occupation, for reasons of prudishness about copulation in general or anger that a woman would allow herself to be so objectified to her clientele, often object to this common, far too often true image of a woman with a hopeless life turning to a man who offers security at a price. This law remaining would do a lot to stop that paradigm.
Artemise
I understand PE.
Ok you all, Think about it this way just for a second. Legalization means condonning the practice which opens up to a wide range of depravity, from streetwalkers to pimping, or porn or whatever. It means religious, marriage and other social constraints of fidelity, commonly accepted now would be relatively negotiable based on social acceptability of a pro-prostitution law. There would be a societal breakdown and that breakdown is in itself condonning the male desire for open sex without committment, the male dream! but detrimental to women. If society says its ok than how can a woman ask of her partner that it not be for him? Committed females, married females lose in a pro-prostitution battle because of its legal and moral reprocussions. Much as 'Free sex' in the 60's did not benefit women in the least. On this side, legalizing prostitution helps men and hurts (most) women overall, by open acceptability.
Thats one side.

On the other hand, legalizing prostitution helps sex workers and the general public. I believe most men are not for legalization or only idealogically. They dont want it in their neighborhoods, next door, they dont want it a public issue, yet it is rampant among males. Ive said before, but noone believes how many dedicated, attractive, loving, committed, decent.... or perverted, lonely, unattractive men are seeing prostitutes on a regular basis. Noone (except every male here) would BELIEVE how many men see prostitutes. This goes for you too PE. The practice is so widespread that it is of devastating porportions . So, legal or not, its happening. There is no law, nor tide that can make it stop, which as Ive said is a (constant) supply side economic. We either stop demonizing sex workers and make it safe for them or lock men up at lunch and after work at night like cows because legal or not its the biggest business going. Religion, nor abstinance programs are not making a damn bit of difference when it comes to sex drive in the male. Punishing the females is not going to stop it either. The male sex drive drives the business. What do you do, castration? or acceptance? Or demonize the female and make her pay, as in Eves mistaken action of trying to educate.
SvenSchborsteinheimer
I would like to say, right off the bat, that I absolutely believe that prostitution should be legalized.
One can say that prostitution is immoral, but I haven't yet read any opinion that stated what about prostitution was immoral.
QUOTE
We all care about the rights of the individual but when the individual decides to disregard their own rights, we let them?

I will also go so far as to say that the legalization of prostitution is moral. It promotes a kind of sexual self sovereignty and the ability to say that your body is yours to do with what you will, providing it's not damaging to yourself and others. Is this not a basic human right to dignity? This is make prostitution not degrading, but empowering.
What's more, we have to be very careful when we use a term like "women selling themselves". This carries the connotation that prostitutes (male, female and transgender) lack self-respect and dignity. The term, at best, is discriminatory.
Practically, I don't see any reason as to why prostitution should not be legalized. The greatest benefit would obviously be to the prostitutes. By legalizing prostitution, the state recognizes it as a legitimate profession, therefore allowing health benefits to the prostitutes. This would mean regular STD check-ups and contraception would be a must. They would also be allowed to screen their customers and have controlled wages. Prostitution is a valid profession and needs to be treated as such.
QUOTE
Does anyone care about the future of America?

I'm sorry, but I think an obstacle is the simple snobbery of so many. By legalizing prostitution, we can improve the situation for the prostitutes. Are they not also a part of the future of America as well? Do they not deserve the same rights and freedoms as anyone else that isn't a prostitute? To spread the idea that prostitution is not respectable is also fallacious, not to mention snobbery in its most obvious state. Looking back in history, not all prostitutes were the same people one sees today. The emperors of China, for example, had numerous concubines and they were royalty.
I would think, after the case in British Colombia with the Pickton Pig Farm, that the state would realize the severeness of how we, as a society, have wronged an entire demographic. The countless murders should have been an indicator that the state has failed to keep track of its own citizens. Countless women disappeared and nobody raised an eyebrow because the prostitutes and prostitution as an industry, was not properly monitored. The state lost human beings and must be held accountable.
Legalization, to me, is the first logical step.
lordhelmet
QUOTE(overlandsailor @ Jul 5 2004, 08:02 AM)
I noticed a old debate question that I somehow missed.  Should we legalize prostitution?    I think it's a good question and would like to get in on this discussion but it was closed so here we go.


Should we Legalize Prostitution?

Who is harmed by prostitution?



Yes, it should be legalized.

Nobody is "harmed" by it.

I think that legalizing this (in a controlled fashion) would help our society in the long run.

1. It would save single men a lot of money and thus lower the average debt level within our economy.

2. It would make bars and clubs a bit more hospitable for many people by reducing the "pick-up" element.

3. It could save some marriages.

4. It could lower unemployment among women with no interest in learning skills required in the "normal" workforce. Therefore, it could reduce welfare and taxes for working people.

All in all, I think it would be a good thing.
hayleyanne
Ok-- let's look at this from a different perspective. How many of you guys with daughters out there would want your little girl to grow up to be a prostitute in this hypothetical world where it is legalized and the job comes complete with benefits? I cannot deny that some "good" could come out of it as LH points out. But weigh all that against the rest. We head down a slippery slope of societal acceptance of this sort of conduct, going so far as to say that the conduct "empowers" women. As Sven just indicated in the post above:

QUOTE
I will also go so far as to say that the legalization of prostitution is moral. It promotes a kind of sexual self sovereignty and the ability to say that your body is yours to do with what you will, providing it's not damaging to yourself and others. Is this not a basic human right to dignity? This is make prostitution not degrading, but empowering.

What's more, we have to be very careful when we use a term like "women selling themselves". This carries the connotation that prostitutes (male, female and transgender) lack self-respect and dignity. The term, at best, is discriminatory
.

I can easily see this type of argument taking root in our society such that views against prostitution may come to be seen as "discriminatory" or uninformed or based in some kind of religious bias.

I am sorry, but prostitution is what it is: selling sex for money. And I don't want our society to reaching a point where it packages it as just another legitimate profession. whistling.gif
Jaime
Wow. Sorry. This is a really old debate that should have been closed sooner. Please feel free to start something fresh if you'd like to debate this topic. Thanks to everyone who participated. smile.gif
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