I noticed a old debate question that I somehow missed. Should we legalize prostitution? I think it's a good question and would like to get in on this discussion but it was closed so here we go.


Should we Legalize Prostitution?

Who is harmed by prostitution?


As for me I say yes, we should legalize it.

I don't see how anyone is harmed by it short of disease,and that could be better controlled by requiring regular examinations if it was legal. Furthermore, this is a rather lucrative trade so companies would likely form and their resources would likely drive the current criminal "management" out of business. "commericalizing" prostitution would lead to a better work environment. Regular hours, no beatings, etc.

Prostitutes would now have access to workman's comp, social security, etc. The government would now earn taxes on their incomes and their businesses incomes, and local governments could restrict their marketing and locations to "houses of ill repute" which would improve the image of the city streets currently being used for "marketing".

We wouldn't be legalizing prostitution of people under age or allowing access to prostitution to those underage. Considering the amount of money that could be legally made by restricting your dealings to adults why would anyone risk their "license" by allowing kids access to prostitutes of by prostituting them?

There would probably be a few who would still prostitute kids, but they would be committing criminal acts and would be prosecuted.

The police resources we would free up from enforcing the majority of prostitution laws would lead to better protection of citizens from real crimes like muggings, burglaries, etc.

What happens to the prostitutes that contract diseases as a result of their trade? Well, that would seem to be a workman's compensation issue. However, businesses tend to protect their productive assets, prostitutes would be the only productive asset of this business so it would be wise for these businesses to require safe sex, regular examinations, etc.

Who would support this? I would expect many of the pro-choice variety to support it. The "It's her body" argument would seem to apply very well here. Libertarians would support it, it's free market, it's personal choice, etc. Social conservative obviously wouldn't support it, but contrary to popular opinion they are in the minority in this country. There are far more social moderates and Libertarians then Social Conservatives, so their opposition alone should not be able to stop it.

Lastly, where is the down side? Outside of Las Vegas, this has been legal for years in Nevada. Where are the horror stories?

Lets try to keep this discussion to prostitution. I do realize that a good portion of this argument could be applied to legalizing drugs and gambling. That's why I support those ideas as well, but they are for another thread that anyone is welcome to start.

This was the last post i made in the other topic. Since it was close right after, not many peole may have seen it. The post is really directed towards points already made in that thread but i think it is still relevant.

I'll make by position clear from the get go, I'm not a fan of prostituion, I'm a Catholic, so I have moral problems with it, but I'm not going to base my opinion on religion, because that's not how things should be decided in America [I'm not claiming that Lederuvdapac is doing that]. Prostitutes aren't all street whores, that is an extreme end of the "Prostitution Spectrum". Just as all prostitutes aren't trying to feed a drug habbit, etc. I'll bet most are just trying to survive, and make money. Absolutely no one is being hurt by prostitution, it's simply consensual sex, being paid for.
So do we not have the right to disregard our rights here in America?
Why not? It is there choice.

No, and no. And I'm sure that my family would talk that family member out of it, we don't need the government to act as a family for us.

Shouldn't people decide for themselves what they wish to do with themselves, you quote Pataki saying that "When the government starts taking responsibility for the people, the people stop taking responsibility for themselves." Yet you say that the gov't should start taking responsibilty with what some people choose to do with their lives, that doesn't make sense to me.

CP

Whose common sense?? There is nothing common about common sense.

What are you talking about women selling themselves??? Every person who has a job, working for someone, is selling themselves. My boss uses my mind, body, and/or skills, what ever they may be, even if it is lifting cement, for themselves. So we can sell our brains, or our muscle, or our looks, all of which are part of ourselves, but not our private parts. Hold up, pornography is legal, so we can sell that to.
Prostitution isn't the best way to make money, I believe that. I also think in most cases it is a degrading position to be in. But should it be criminal, no. It should be discouraged, because of the potential harm it does to the individual, similar to stripping or pornography. But there is no reason to leep it illegal.

Just as a rebuttal argument to your scenario of assisted suicide, if a man shoots himself do you lock him up for attempted murder??

What in the world as the U.S. as come to!

I'm a social conservitve and a Libertarian....


No body being hurt? How about a person's mate, childern, friends? Any thing a person does, will effect someone else; it will be only a matter of time when it does. Postitution degrades or hevily borders on degrading human diginity, because it degrades the person who is geting paid for the sex into a toy to be injoyed.

Legislate morality--we do that every time we pass a law.
John Adams, a Founding Father, said this:

Should we Legalize Prostitution?
If a person isn't free to do as they wish with their own body, how can we claim anyone is free?
Legalization would actually improve matters by bringing some degree of regulation in- if prostitution were legal we could ensure that no one is forced into prostitution, prostitutes would have legal recourse to deal with violent customers and pimps, safety regulations could help cut down on the spread of STDs.

Who is harmed by prostitution?
No one.
I dare say that a prostitute has more dignity in their job than a telemarketer, for example. We are talking about free choice here, we don't need big brother to protect us from our own decisions.

You're certainly conservative, but I see nothing to suggest you are a libertarian. So, should stripping be illegal? Howabout pornography? Seductive dancing, bathing suits, etc... you see where I'm going with this? They all "degrade" women by sexualizing them. Since when does assuming a sexualized persona equate to abbrogating your humanity? Are dead end crack-whore type prostitutes degraded? Yes; but then again prostitution is illegal and that doesn't elevate them. These are women forced into their trade by bad decisions or worse circumstances. I fail to see how morality influences their reality.

Try telling a girl who ran away from an abusive household and is now beaten into submission by a pimp that prostitution is immoral. The response you get may enlighten you.

The fact is that while society does to a degree legislate morality; it does little to effect the morals of those on the fringes. Legalized morality is targetted at those who already fall within the moral guidelines that would be institutionalized, or at least those who still have one foot in the door. These laws mean nothing and do nothing for people who do not accept or cannot appreciate those morals. These laws provide neither comfort nor guidance, and improve only the lives of those that want them.

Should we Legalize Prostitution?

Yes, I believe it should be legalized. Humans are not monogamous by nature; society and religious teaching have dictated that humans shall remain monogamous. Only about 3% of all species on earth are monogamous Source. Having said that, I don’t believe it provides an excuse for promiscuity or infidelity, only a biological reason. Prostitution has been around for centuries (hence the “world’s oldest occupation” appellation), and the only decision seems to me would be:

1. Continue to make it against the law, and maintain the crime and dangers resulting from it, or
2. Legalize and regulate it.

Who is harmed by prostitution?

While it is illegal, the women who are in the profession (by choice or by force) are hurt, because there are no laws or regulations to protect them. They are disdained and ignored by law-abiding society, as being somehow subhuman. It allows pimps to prey on and abuse women.

And of course, if a married man avails himself of their services, there is another potential victim-his wife. Since our religious-oriented society has deemed it proper that once married, a man must act against his nature, prostitution is here to stay, whether it be legal or illegal. And being illegal and unregulated puts that married woman at risk that her husband will bring home and pass on an STD.

Personally, I think it's repellant, but if I think objectively about it, prostitution isn't all that different than a one-night stand; instead of an up-front monetary transaction, it's the man buying drinks and subtle or not-so-subtle persuasion to "put out". We are complicated creatures.

A person is and should be responsible for his/her decisions, whether the effects may damage the decision maker, or his/her mates or children or friends. It's not the government's job to make sure a person's personal decision doesn't have adverse affects in that persons private life.

CP

Who is harmed by prostitution?

Well if we look into what DaffyGrl said and take it further...



Maybe it is not the prostitutes that are hurt by the illegality, but the girls that go out to bars every weekend looking for "the right man". Let's say that the woman is trying to settle down and find the right person, while the man is just looking for some sex, as is usually the case. Of course, he doesn't tell the woman this, but instead romances her and tries to bring her to bed that evening. If the woman is totally taken in by the guy, then she might accept the sex just so that the guy will be satisfied and they will possibly get to go out again. Unfortunately, the guy has no intentions of a long term relationship, and after his penis is satisfied he plans on never seeing her again.

Now, if prostitution was legal, this situation would probably happen a lot less. Why break a girl's heart and gamble on whether or not she will go to bed with you, when you can just call up a prostitute and have your urges settled much more quickly? Yeah, there probably would still be those egotistical guys that love both the thrill of the chase and getting to brag to their friends that they "bagged another one", but I think most guys would opt for the easier route if it were legal.

Edited to fix the non-medical reference to anatomy.

Should we Legalize Prostitution?

In my opinion yes, we should legalize it. Prostitution has been around forever and won't be going away any time soon no matter how many police we throw at the situation, it is not called "the oldest profession in the world" for nothing.

1) Legalizing prostitution would make it safer for the women (and men) that consider this their profession. By taking this profession out of the realm of the "black market" it could be regulated. You would likely find fewer underage prostitutes if this were the case.

The most important impact here would be that prostitutes would have a legal means of addressing the problems they face daily right now (and have faced for thousands of years). You would find far fewer stories where prostitutes were beat (or worse) or were essentially working as slaves for a pimp.

Additionally, safety could be improved by offering safe and controlled environments where the prostitution could take place, similar to places this has been setup in Nevada.

2) Prostitutes could be taxed on their earnings. This may not necessarily be a good thing for those working in the profession, but it would certainly benefit the state and federal governments.

3) Police time, money and resources currently dedicated to tracking down, arresting and detaining prostitutes could be freed up and used for something a little more productive.

Who is harmed by prostitution?
I would say that currently, the people harmed most by prostitution are the women who call this their profession. However, I believe that is the case mostly because of the kind of environment they have to work in. STDs and such aside, prostitution is a dangerous world right now because it is easy for something bad to happen when no one is looking out for you.

I suppose the only victims of prostitution are relationships (if the man or woman is in one). However, prostitution is not the cause of this problem in the relationship, it is simply a symptom of it. If prostitution were legal, I don't think we'd see more people cheating on their significant others strictly because of that.

Actually you lock him up in a mental institution for having a psychological disorder. Suicide was decriminalized in most the US in the 19th Century. While suicide is not considered a felony in the US, in some states it is a misdemeanor.



My point with the quote was (or how i interpret it) if the government legalizes such things as drugs and prostitution and all that negative stuff, then they are taking responsibility for people's actions because they are allowing it to go on. They are not enforcing laws that should be upheld. When that happens the people think they can do whatever they want. If its legal, it is condoned and it is promoted. So when the government legalizes something such as prostitution, people get the wrong idea.

Furthermore, i do not understand how anyone can think that this "industry" can be regulated. And it is beyond me why someone would want tax dollars spent on regulating it.

Decriminalizing prostitution would do nothing but promote the practice. Some have said that it could be legal but discouraged...that is untrue. Legal means "ok". The only way to discourage something is to make it so no one is allowed to do it.

You say that the government has no business enforcing morality? Granted...but they also have no business enforcing IMMORALITY. As a society we should try to make people realize that prostitution is not an option for anyone. There are dozens, maybe hundreds of other things that we could better promote that would be more beneficial to society and to the would-be prostitutes. Why dont we try to figure out ways to solve the problem of prostitution other than just allowing it to happen? People here make the assertion that prostitution has always been here and always will be here. In my opinion this is true only because people have been taking the same attitudes that most on this thread have. Instead of putting a stop to it and maybe doing something that is more respectable we decide that there is nothing that can be done.

A country with no morals is anarchy. Limits have to be set up somewhere. "The government can't tell me what to do." Your right. but they can tell you what you cannot do. Does anyone...honestly...want to live in a society when things such as prostitution are common and rampant? How about drugs? Do we want to live in an amoral society? A sociey where all civility and decency of the human spirit are lost to those who want nothing more than degredation of our principles?

Hey,but what do i know, i am only 17 right?

It should not be THE GOVERNMENT that sets the people's morals, as you appear to be assuming here, but THE PEOPLE. Community standards in obscenity laws come to mind. If we legalized prostitution tomorrow, that does not mean that it would immediately become acceptable the next day.

It would however mean that woman who choose the profession would no longer be exposed to the tremendous number of risks that they are exposed to every night, in fact while your reading this, there is a prostitute somewhere in this country being abused.

Why the government continues to enforce victemless "crimes" is beyond me.

Actually, a country that allowed me to decide if I wanted to try drugs or not, and would protect women working the oldest profession in the world(Maybe not older than God, but a hell of a lot older than Moses), WOULD be a place that I would want to live.

I'd also like to point out that to some degree you ALREADY live in the country your describing. If you live in Nevada for half a year, then move to California for the other half of the year, you get to smoke Cannibis in January, and engage in prostitution in July.

Heck, you can already do all the drugs you want anywhere in the country as long as you choose Alcohol(Gives you Brain Damage!) and Nicotine(More addictive than Coke!).

God Bless America!
Now if only we can get rid of these darn hypocritical double-standards.

By that logic, if the government was previously punishing people who drove blue cars, then simply wiped away laws prohibiting those veichiles, they would be promoting blue cars. Laws prevent people from doing things, but a lack of prevention does not equal an endoresment. The government wouldn't be encouraging blue cars anymore than they promte red or green cars.

I read a very informational book about prostitution and sex in general. It seems that in places where brothels are closed, rapes and sex crimes explode. It just doesn't make much sense to rape someone when you can purchase a willing partner. They don't prevent all types of rapes, specifically ones aimed at gaining control over the subject.

My point is, having prostitutes has some positive effects. Besides, it is a fairly free country.

I disagree with that. But I'm curious, what exactly is immoral about prostitution? Why is paying for sex vile, and yet, sex itself generally okay?

I don't see much of a problem with prostitution, actually. A woman offers her services to a man willing to pay for her. Both have what they want after the exchange. Capitalism at its finest.

Count me among those who don't want their daughters making their living on their backs with their legs spread apart.

And I don't subscribe to the idea of saying "It's okay for you to do but not for me or my family" in this case, because it is a subtle way of saying that I am better than you are. So no, prostitution should not be legalized.

The fact is, all people are entitled to personal dignity, but all people do not behave as if they believe they have it or are worthy of it. Such practices, by and large, do not reinforce dignity or the feeling of self worth.

In cases where prostitution is the only means of fending off starvation, yes, I can understand a woman or man selling their body for money. Other than that circumstance, with so many other possibilities available to people, I do not understand why a person would choose to do something so risky and at times so degrading.

If you think that prostitution would be unacceptably degrading, don't engage in it yourself, but why are you in favour of using the apparatus of the state to impose your moral sensibilities on the entire community? There is a huge demand for sexual services, there are people who are prepared to satisfy that demand, so obviously your view is not shared by everyone. Let the people who want to be sex workers pursue their work in a safe and regulated environment. If you really cared about their welfare and dignity, you would be advocating legalisation. Instead, through your sanctimonious and unrealistic stance, you condemn them to an unnecessarily high risk of violence and to exploitation and intimidation by organized criminal organizations. Where's the morality in that?

The cost of regulating it is already massively high. Check out the cost of operating your local vice unit. Furthermore, the reduced cost of regulating the industry would be more then made up for by the licenses that would be sold and the taxes that would now be collected. A financial surplus would be created. A Surplus that would go into the general revenue.



Really? So then I guess the government is currently "promoting" smoking, being that it is legal. The number of smokers in the US has been going down for years, partially because of the ever increasing taxes on smokes, but mostly because of the ever decreasing social acceptability. By your argument everyone should be smoking by now.



I do believe there have been other religious groups throughout history have taken a very hard line on prostitution. There have been punishments on the books for prostitutes that went as far as stoning them to death, and at the time that punishment was socially acceptable. Yet prostitution continued. Similarly, there are very hard punishments on the books right now for drug distribution, yet drugs continue to pervade every sector of our society. This is because the demand for these "products" does not go away and there are always people there looking to earn a living off this demand. Being that there are no victims in either of these crimes why do we continue the puritanical concept of criminalizing them?



With prostitution, people CHOOSE to participate. With Drugs, people CHOOSE to take them. In this society politicians steal from their constituents, public officials take bribes not to do their jobs, parents neglect their kids, spouses sleep around on each other, etc, etc. In all those acts, people are forced to participate, in the case of prostitution and drugs, legalizing them is the only way to eliminate forcing some to participate.

I agree, we have a ton of "victimless" crimes in America. It would be nice if we could work towards being the free nation we claim to be. Being free, means to be free to make choices about your life, even bad ones.

Should prostitution be legalized?

This is a question that is very complicated, like throwing people in jail for smoking pot, it fills the jails and accomplishes nothing. In both cases the offenders are usually not a detriment to society, victimless crimes for the most part. Consenting adults as well, which makes it a strange 'crime'. Now, if you are caught soliciting a prostitute (officer) on the street your car is taken away, this ceases to become victimless. Basically I would look at it as , what is costing society more, arresting people for it, filling jails for it? Stealing peoples property for it? Lets say, does the criminalization cause more harm than the actual act? In this case, I think, yes. But, prostitution is not a womans crime, its societal problem that is male based from lack of honesty and integrity, because prostitution has a very unusual dynamic to it:

I will say, from experience, that many more people are engaged in this activity than anyone would like to admit. The sex industry in this country is booming, from erotic/asian massage parlors, spas, strip clubs, porn, internet sex, phone sex, escort agencies, high dollar dates and streetwalkers, not to mention mexican border towns with basically gringo patronage. That implicates a huge demmand-supply side economic, since all of these women are making good to decent money. That suggest to me that at least 1/3 of those who talk of high ideals and morality are lying somewhere on the path and are buying porn or going to strip clubs or getting some paid sex somewhere.

Men who frequent prostitutes are not what most people think, there are LOTS of them, in all professions, mostly white collar workers because they have more disposable income, but its sort of a sliding scale as to the level of companionship or kink a man can afford. The lower end of course goes to the street, it only gets better from there. 80% are married.

Married women...do you live in a city like Dallas, Chicago, NY, Boston? There are thousands of clubs and spas you drive by everyday yet go unoticed to you, someone is keeping these places alive and well in your city. The internet has provided an entire new source for the sex trade as well.

Heres the inside of it. Many, many men, ( I feel confident to say hundreds of millions) are patrons of all kinds of sex for money, they see nothing wrong with it. Men have a high sex drive that often cannot be met by their partner. They wish not to have affairs, so they pay for a clean exchange, a business deal in their eyes,( they understand business) no ties, one hour or more of satisfaction for a fee. Some have wives with medical problems, some have no sex at home for various reasons, some are just dogs who want somethin' strange, some like $20 mexican ladies from the border because its a cheap thrill, some like streetwalkers because they have an atachment to the dangerous, some are just lonely and want a womans company to ease the strife of daily life, some cannot get a woman by regular means.
Men have a huge sex drive and will get it no matter what, its built into their biology, unless they are so strongly committed they can overcome the constant need which their sex drives in them everyday. Its known that men think about sex all day and clock every woman that passes. That is not every man, but the drive is strong in most. Sound harsh? The facts tell the truth. There is a huge sex vacation trade to Asia and Europe, often for young girls and boys, find out how many strip clubs, massage parlors and escort agencies there are in your city. Follow the money and there you find the truth. Its the biggest business going.
Usually young men dont exhibit this behavior because sex is easier when younger. Most men paying for sex are in their 40's and beyond. They have married, had kids, they have done the right thing and always will, but they are missing something and not getting any younger. They want to know they are still attractive and sexually healthy, they want a thrill, they want to experiment with new things, but dont want to risk their well built lives. They pay, for one hour of thrill and go on to put their kids through college and buy their wives diamonds for Christmas and continue to love her whether she will sleep with him or not, because he has taken care of his needs elsewhere.
Men are totally sexual and experimental creatures. We think of prostitution as a basic 'spreading of the legs', not so. These men are getting massages, bubble baths, learning new sex tricks, learning to please a woman, getting a major ego stroking. They are getting tied up and blindfolded, sometimes getting whipped, eating strawberries and cream in odd places and a myriad of other experiences not postable here that the wife has rejected (sometimes rightly so).
Prostitution is a male demand crime or else it would not exist. Men are not taunted by prostitutes, men actively seek them out and look for something new. Is it right? I cant tell. But I know that many do not want to wait until they are impotent to have some of these experiences. What is the whole viagra thing about really?

Then some are just total dogs and perverts, unscrupulous. Its a game.
Men will turn young women into prostitutes by buying them things they need in order to get sex, taking advantage. Men will come onto a female hitchhiker who simply needs a ride hoping she will 'pay up'. The male sex drive knows very few ethics in the grand generalization.

Now I know, everyone wants to think they are 'not like that'. You'dbe suprised. Id be willing to bet quite a few have paid for sex on this board, I know so.

Now , to adress the women of the industry. That runs the gammit, from the crack addicts to the high dollar educated who have made the decision for themselves.
They dont see themselves as victims and dont want the moral majority directing their lives from the pulpit, noone has any right to do this. Each has their own reasons for choosing their job. Its not to say that the business doensnt hurt some, but so does inhaling toxins at a local factory or watching your kids go without. Women are capable of many a self sacrifice as well as being total hedonists out for themselves alone, just as men. There is no reason to put morality on womens sex when the same is not applicable to men, its condescending. Both women and men have the capacity to sell their bodies and many dont have religious convictions, some have strong ones. Its their choice. We dont tell miners not to go into mines because they will die from black lung, mountainclimbers are not prohibited to do so because they may die. Soldiers are allowed to go to war to get themselves killed, so why the problem with selling sex? I dont say its not intimate, supposed to be an act of love, but really, weve gone way beyond that already, no going back, and theres no stuffing it down peoples throats.

Noone wants their daughter to do it, but we dont yet teach our sons that woman is much more than a sexy body, and if she loses that he should not be looking elsewhere for a 'thing' with less bodyfat, younger, or bigger, firmer ( or silicone) breasts.

Prostitution is an issue that will never be solved or eradicated, so the best thing to do is make it safe for the women, or lock up all the men after the workday and watch them continuously at lunchtime as well.

Degrading to whom? I assume that person who chooses to be a prostitute, wouldn't you agree that the affects of persons personal choices are of his/her concern only, not the governments. There are other things that you can do that are undignified, however, they aren't illeagal. People should be responsible for their choices and the consequences that those choices bring.

CP

Just a question here for the people that oppose legalization - how is prostitution materially different than say:
- Paying for a women to strip/give you a lap dance at a strip club
- Paying for an "actress" to have sex in a pornography flick

Both of the activities above are legal and yet very similar to prostitution, I would argue that adult film stars are prostitutes in a sense, just not available to your average Joe.

Seems like the primary arguments against it are that it is degrading to women and if we made it legal more people would do it.

I'm curious how those arguments play out against the scenario I outlined above. Additionally prostitution is legal in Nevada and some foreign countries (Holland I think). Are women lining up to become prostitutes, strippers and adult film stars?

No. How can we allow our kids to be raised in an atmosphere where there are women who are barely dressed and walking around the street?


Everyone. For example, a prostitute has syphillis, but she doesn't know it. A married man gets it on with her on his lunch break and gets syphillis. Then, he goes home and gives it to his wife. You've just endangered yourself and your wife and who knows how many others in the future.

GA, again, that is a stereotype and an extreme example of prostitution, not all prostitutes are street whores. And Cube Jockey makes a good point, several civilized countries have legal prostitution, and they aren't bad.
Okay, but if prostitution is legalized, the government will regulate it and clean it up...Prostitutes will be tested for STDs, it would no longer be a problem.

Just some questions directed at no one in particular:
Are you responsible for the decisions you make in your life, and who those decisions will affect and to what degree?

Are you responsible for how other people may think of you?

Should the government act in an attempt to save someone self induced embarrassment or degradation?

CP

But you are saying that you are better than others by insisting that what you find to be degrading should be illegal for them to do.
Don't you trust people to make their own decisions? If not it would seem you think you are better than them.
I mentioned previously that I would personally consider telemarketing to be less dignified work than prostitution (at least the prostitute is selling something the customer wants). Why should someone elses idea of what is dignified have any bearing on what I do with my body? By that standard there should have been a law to keep Bill Murray from doing that Garfield movie.

How would legalizing prostitution cause this to happen? Would legalizing it all of a sudden cause prostitutes to move into the suburbs and hang out in the local strip mall?

Wouldn't it be logical to assume that if it were legal there would be established places of business for prostitution such as there are now for strip clubs, massage parlors and sex clubs?

They would be promoting blue cars. What was once illegal has become illegal. It is allowed, no longer punishable. That is promotion, allowing things to happen. If it was bad to own a blue car then it would still be illegal.

Again i cannot stress enough how people are getting the complete wrong idea about this. Why promote it? Why legalize it? Why even make it an option! Can't our society do something that is more beneficial and more healthy to help these people? Instead of saying "hey its here, might as well make money off of it" why don't we say "there is a better solution...a better way?" Can't we try to enrich our culture and our way of life?



yes the government is promoting smoking because it is legal. Listen, the reason the number of smokers in the US has been going down is not because of taxes or social acceptability (though they may be minute factors) it is because of the number of people who have died from smoking-related diseases such as lung cancer. My argument isnt that everyone should be smoking by now, it is that the government is allowing it to happen so it is condoned. It is not criminal to smoke. It is allowed and condoned.

It is as if a parent had a kid who swears. The parent doesn't like the kid swearing but does nothing to reprimand the child. If the child isn't punished he thinks it is allowed and sees no problem in it. Is the parent not promoting the usage of swear words in this situation?

*Yay 100th post

Promoting is to urge or contribute the spread of...Unless you [meaning anti-legalization folk] can prove that by legalizing prostitution, more prostitutes will pop up, your argument does not hold ground. I'll also reiterate my questions:


CP

Is there any conceivable scenario where regulation of prostitution would lessen the amount of prostitutes? If the answer is no then we should not legalize it. We should try putting a stop to the practice not allow it to go on any further.

EDIT:


1) Of course we are responsible for the decisions we make in life. But why can't we make the decisions easier for people? Give them better options other than prostitution...this is the basis of my whole argument. Stop promoting it and lets find other ways.

2) Everyone is somewhat responsible for how others think of you but for the most part it is cynical people making up their own minds before they know the facts.

3) No, the government should act in an attempt to better society and the quality in which we live our lives.

The same scenario that lessened the consumption of alcohol when was legalized.
Link

Why does the government need to make the decisions easier for people, are people so dependent that they need an outside source to tell them how to liver their lives? Can't people decide without someone simplifying a choice for them?

Couldn't you make the case then that alcohol, smoking, guns, and everything else that the gov't decides is not "better" should be illegal? Where does it stop?

CP

Edited to add: apparently CJ and I are sharing the same brain this morning

Maybe, maybe not. What it would do is make it safer for the women (and men) involved. I doubt, however, that prostitution (even if legal) would be a career any sizeable percentage of women would aspire to.

Legalizing it would also eliminate the black market aspect of it. This could pretty easily be compared to drinking alcohol and prohibition.

People have been drinking alcohol for all of recorded history. In the 1920's the government saw fit to ban alcohol based on some warped moral values. People didn't stop drinking alcohol as the law intended. All the law did was push production underground and increase crime by giving it a new market. Police spent a lot of time either hunting down people violating the law or hunting down people that committed other crimes because of the law. Eventually law makers saw fit to remove the law.

Legalizing prostitution would eliminate a lot of the shadier aspects of the trade and allow police to concentrate on things that actually matter in the grand scheme of things. Prostitutes have been around forever (through much stricter times) and they won't be going away any time soon.

Edited to add: apparently CP and I are sharing a brain this morning

Alright. But the government wouldn't be promoting blue cars over, say, green cars would they? The government would not actively entice anyone to try prostitution by legalizing it.

Besides, its legalization wouldn't be an attempt to promote prostitution. Because making it legal does not have the purpose of promoting it, you cannot say with certainty that more prostitutes would occur as a result.

Furthermore, even if something that was legal was in a way promoted by the government (Like wearing my shirt backwards) I would still be for legalization.

You did miss my more important question. What is it about prostitution thats immoral?

I am reminded of one of the arguments used by pro-gun people opposing Gun control: They state that gun control would only deter the legal, and criminals would have just as many guns, making the innocents defenceless.

Regardless of the actual veracity of this claim, the argument boils down to essentially it would be nice if we could regulate guns, but in practical fact it would not work.


I see legalisation of prostitution to be much the same. Many would argue in theory that legalising prostitution would be bad, on a theoretical level, but the practical reality is that prostitution is so commonplace as to be everywhere, and all illegality has done is remove from these people basic protections and safeguards. Wheither they chose the profession or had it thrust upon them, they still deserve the protection of the law. Keeping it illegal is simply putting your head in the sand and pretending it does not exist. Pick up any Yellow pages in a North American city, and you will find more ads under 'escorts' then you will under 'car rentals'. Every 14 year old knows the parts of their city where streetwalkers ply their trade, and 20 seconds of searching on the web can find you dozens of ads from private escorts, or even webpages dedicated to hosting, advertising and rating the performance of protitutes.

Reality check here, illegality is not curbing the crime, someone before was saying that maiing it legal would somehow promote this kind of behaviour: could it really be promoted anymore? Renting a prostitute is easier than renting a lawnmower in most m,ajor cities, I hardly imagine how the situation could become MORE prevalent if it were legalised.

On the other hand, laws, protections, checkups and elimination of freelance pimping could make a serious difference in the lives of these women (and men).

So while standing on the high horse and arguing about the theory of prostitution makes for good debate, it has very little elevance to a world where it is so commonplace and prevalent, even when illegal.

Interesting point of view unfortunately, any attempt to legalize it on a national level would be a near impossible task.

Would you have a Federal Department of Prostitution?
Would it have standards for cleanliness, diseases and drug testing?
As they would have to be regurally tested under whose auspices would it fall, federal, state, local?
Who would foot the bill for lawsuits for johns who get STD's and sue the government for failing to screen properly?
Who would pay for the prostitution inspectors to make sure that the pimps were keeping their girls up to snuff ?(I can think of a few lewd comments here but I will refrain)
Would their be a registration situation for prostitutes?
If so what would you do to the people who refused to join?
Would they arrest them, fine them, convict them for tax evasion?
What if a community did not want a whorehouse in their neighborhood, would zoning laws take effect or would there be a bunch of free speech/freedom of association suits bought to federal court?

These are a few of the immediate problems that come to mind if any plan like this was implemented on a national scale. Better to leave the status quo which more or less discourages such behaviour by social disapproval.

I believe most if not all of those have been answered.

Strip Clubs and Adult Films (both legal) already deal with many of those issues. This still leaves my question unanswered from before, how are these things materially different than prostitution?

I think you could go further than this, and compare, say, professional boxing to prostitution. Both rely on mutual consent, both can be dangerous, both rely on the exploitation of one physical activity, both might not be something a parent would want their child to do unless they have absolutely no other option, both are a way out of poverty for people with no other marketable skills, and so on.

Boxers are licensed by sporting authorities. There are some laws governing minimum standards, but mostly the profession is self-regulating. Their health is checked to make sure they aren't putting themselves or their opponents at more risk than absolutely necessary.

And, there are still unlicensed fights, from formalised bareknuckled competitions in back rooms, to drunken brawls outside bars. Sometimes money changes hands, sometimes it doesn't. Some people are sickened by the very idea of boxing - while others are turned on by that same idea. Generally, as long as it doesn't impinge on their own life, opponents of boxing are not harmed by it. Those that are are perfectly well aware of the risks, and are either insured against them or are compensated by the licensing bodies if they are found to have been at fault. Governments do not pay compensation to injured boxers.

Replace "prostitute" for "boxer" in the above, and what is the material difference between the two? One is legal, the other not. And, (not to be understimated) one is largely practised by men and enjoyed by men, and the other is practised by women and enjoyed by men.

Getting a lap dance or looking at a porno mag will not infect you with a deadly disease, though it could make you blind or give you hairy palms.

The comparison is not a very good one, it is like comparing the actions of a squirtgun to that of a shotgun.

But comparing the role of a prostitute to the role of an adult film star is a good comparison. Adult Film stars are paid to have sex on camera. The only difference between an adult film star and a prostitute is availability, not just anyone off the street can have sex with an adult film star.

However, that difference aside being an adult film star is exactly the same as being a prostitute in many ways, and most importantly exchanging sex for money. One could even apply the same arguements against prostitution to the adult film industry.

Yet, one is legal and one isn't. So, what is the difference exactly?

I threw in the strip club example because again you are exchanging sexual behavior for money and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for them to have rooms for sex in the back. In fact, in many strip clubs that is exactly what you'll find for the right price. The adult film industry is a much better example though.

[quote](lederuvdapac) Yes the number of smokers in the US has been going down is not because of taxes or social acceptability (though they may be minute factors) it is because of the number of people who have died from smoking-related diseases such as lung cancer. My argument isnt that everyone should be smoking by now, it is that the government is allowing it to happen so it is condoned. It is not criminal to smoke. It is allowed and condoned. [/quote]

Wow, not sure what "new math" you are using here but your logic just doesn't track to me. It is allowed and condoned, true. But that is a FAR cry from PROMOTING it. Promotion would be the FDA running ads for Marlboro. The Federal government used to PROMOTE smoking in that they used to give free smokes to the troops in their rations. This is no longer done.

[quote](lederuvdapac)It is as if a parent had a kid who swears. The parent doesn't like the kid swearing but does nothing to reprimand the child. If the child isn't punished he thinks it is allowed and sees no problem in it. Is the parent not promoting the usage of swear words in this situation?[/quote]

No. The parent is allowing the swearing. The parent is effectively condoning the behavior since he/she do not act to prevent it. However, unless the parent is teaching the child these words and telling the child that those are the words to use when trying to express this or that then the parent is not PROMOTING the swearing.

[quote](lederuvdapac)Is there any conceivable scenario where regulation of prostitution would lessen the amount of prostitutes? If the answer is no then we should not legalize it. We should try putting a stop to the practice not allow it to go on any further.[/quote]

By this logic then since making it illegal has not reduced the number of prostitutes then it should be legalized. Criminalizing VICTIMLESS crimes never works.

[quote](lederuvdapac)No, the government should act in an attempt to better society and the quality in which we live our lives.[/quote]

Then I can assume that you probably also support the redistribution of wealth through taxes because that is an effort to improve society.

You would also likely support restricting people under 25 from driving. After all, young drivers are responsible for the largest percentage of auto accidents. Making it illegal for young people to drive would surely improve the safety on our roads, and thus improve society.


(Chiefdork)
[quote]Would you have a Federal Department of Prostitution?
Would it have standards for cleanliness, diseases and drug testing?
As they would have to be regurally tested under whose auspices would it fall, federal, state, local?[/quote]

No, it could be regulated by local health departments as most health issues are, and it would be paid for by the business licensing and other fees fees that would be collected.

[quote]Who would foot the bill for lawsuits for johns who get STD's and sue the government for failing to screen properly?[/quote]

The government doesn't get these kinds of suits now when a restaurant employee spreads disease. The suit falls on the business. Same would happen here.

[quote]Who would pay for the prostitution inspectors to make sure that the pimps were keeping their girls up to snuff ?(I can think of a few lewd comments here but I will refrain) [/quote]

Licensing fees, processing fees and taxes collected on the business, just to name a few. No new local agency would be required, just an expansion of the local health department.

[quote]Would their be a registration situation for prostitutes?[/quote]

Absolutely. Just as the current system in place in most states for new hires in Restaurants, Casinos, etc.

[quote]If so what would you do to the people who refused to join?[/quote]
[quote]Would they arrest them, fine them, convict them for tax evasion? [/quote]

They would be prosecuted under the law for practicing business without a license just like any other profession / business. How they were punished would depend on if the local government felt that a stricter penalty would be needed then the penalties applied to those who sell hotdogs on the street or practice medicine without a license. Additional charges of tax evasion might be filed, however no new laws or enforcement would be needed here as tax evasion charges do not depend of how you earned the income.

[quote]What if a community did not want a whorehouse in their neighborhood, would zoning laws take effect or would there be a bunch of free speech/freedom of association suits bought to federal court?[/quote]

The same situation comes up everyday in America in regard to adult book stores and the like. Many municipalities have laws restricting these sorts of businesses, I don't see why houses of ill repute would be any different.

One thing you have not considered:

The savings at the police department and court house by not having to administer all of the prostitution cases. The added police to protect the public from real criminals now that those assigned to prostitution would no longer be needed.

The huge tax revenue opportunities. The fact is that this is a very pervasive industry today (as it has been thoughout recorded history) and currently not a dollar of taxes is collected from it. The increase in income taxes collected alone from this change would be a pretty good sized benefit, not to mention all of the people who are prostitutes and on public assistance (a small percentage). Now that their line of work would be registered and regulated they would have to choose one paycheck or the other.

I am going to devote this post to my main point because it seems nobody wishes to address it. It seems everyone is ecstatic over this charming discovery of legalized prostitution.

Why can't we as a society offer BETTER options? Why? Why must we resort to such practices as prostitution as a viable option? This is what I do not understand and what everyone has failed to address. Is there any reason as to why we cannot offer something more? Something more beneficial and respectable?

You say "prostitution has always been here so we might as well legalize it."

I say "can't we do something that would ensure that prostitution is not even a consideration to women (or men)?"

Answer me that. Are you willing to accept prostitution based solely on the viewpoint that it is something that has and will always be here?

GIVE THESE PEOPLE SOMETHING MORE! They deserve it, not as Americans, but as human-beings. We owe it to ourselves and to them to offer something better. People say these people have no choice, i say we give them another one!

Interesting question. Do you have an answer? I know alot of puritanical people who have been trying to eliminate all sorts of sins with no luck throughout recorded history. I would love to hear a solution to this problem.

While we wait, I'll pose a question to you. WHO is harmed by prostitution? Assuming consenting adults are involved, as would be the case in the legal variety, who is harmed when one chooses to pay for a nights entertainment provided by another?

Edited to add:

Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive. -- William F. Buckley Jr.

This question really seems to me to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of how our world works. As long as there is a man with a $100 bill there will be a woman in any city who will be willing to earn it with sex.

Let me extend your question to the parrells others have made.

Should we make the creation of pornography illegal, in the cause of society trascending the need for pornography?

The "Prostitute" archetype is as old as time, appears several times in the bible, and is a major part of society, Humanity would have to evolve to the point where prostitution was no longer something anyone wanted to be eliminated, for your idea to even remotely hold any weight.

I'm sorry, but we're not even close.

In my opinion there is absolutely no difference between paying a woman to have sex with a man, and paying a woman to have sex with a man while a camera is running. It is insanely hypocritical to have a double-standard like this.

The idea that disease and declined morals will spread due to a law like this being removed from society is ridiculous. All you have to do is look at how the Bunny Ranch and other Nevada brothels are being run to see this.

I'll bite

In order to eliminate prostitution, we would be talking about serious uprooting some fundamental things about society.

1) Eliminate Poverty - a large majority of women and men that work as prostitutes do so because they don't really have other alternatives for income. This could be because of lack of opportunities, missed opportunities, bad luck, upbringing, any number of factors.

2) Eliminate Capitalism - some people will do anything for money and selling their body happens to offer the highest return given their skills. Others (usually the rich soliciting the high end call girls) enjoy the fact that money can buy them another person's attention, it is a power thing.

My philosophy is that I choose to look at the world with a realist point of view. It would be great if we could attack some of the root problems here, but honestly our politicians have a hard enough time tackling the small issues, much less large things which effect society. Forget about tackling anything with global impact, no one would ever reach a consensus. Therefore prostitution is here to stay, for all of recorded history we have tried in one way or another to eliminate it, I highly doubt we will be successful in any of our lifetimes.

Au contraire, Grendel72.

"It's okay for you, but..." is a cop-out, so I don't say it. It is NOT OKAY, but it is done anyway. Men follow the directions of "the little head" and cheat on their spouses with prostitutes who make it easy for them. If they are feeling they aren't getting enough from their wives, why they can't make a date with their hand in a closed bathroom listening to soft (or hard) music on their Walkman and contemplating their favorite centerfold instead is a mystery to me.

The argument that it happens (prostitution) so we might as well make it legal is lame. About the same number of folks who dutifully register their guns, declare all taxable income, and buy fishing licenses every year would probably be representative of the number of sex workers who would submit to government regulation ostensibly to make it a safer industry. It will not eliminate the renegades who figure it's in no way Uncle Sam's or their state government's business and who cater to clients who do not use condoms or other measures for the prevention of STDs as well as birth control.

Nobody needs me to try to talk out of both sides of my mouth about prostitution being wrong but it's okay for someone else to do it, and I'm not going to do it!

Should we Legalize Prostitution?

Yes, with the caveat of regulation and zoning restricting solicitation to certain areas of the community...just like sex shops and strip bars are today. Such regulations seem to work for the Netherlands and Germany. Juxtapose those societies with Thailand (where prostitution is ubiquitous and illegal). Bangkok is about the seediest city I've ever been to, and one can't even take a cab ride without a solicitation for 20 different sexual services, offering everything imaginable and unimaginable .

At the very least, decriminalizing will offer prostitutes some legal protections and ameliorate the exploitation they experience now, as well as make it easier to leave the lifestyle. A criminal record will prevent a prostitute from obtaining other employment for years if she wishes to leave. I look at it this way...if the legal definition of prostitution is the engagement in, or offer to engage in, sexual conduct with another for a fee, many strip clubs are the equivalent today. I don't see a difference myself. I DO understand other people's reservations, but I think zoning is a better way to go than continued criminalization.

Chief Dork you totally sidestepped the question of how is prostitution different from porn or lap dancing with this answer. No one is answering the question because they know there is no justification for throwing women and men in jail who practice it.

What is immoral? The selling of sex or the selling of sexual pleasure??? Or is it the possibility that a spouse's mate is unsatisfied and may step out. Why is it illegal. Sex before marriage is immoral as well, should we put fornicators in jail as well. You see legislated morality sooner or later ends up Supreme Court that will put it in its place. At this time, all those for the current law cry foul when the law gets struck down. Some laws have no legitimate reason for existing. It's immoral is not a sound argument to throw someone in jail. Show how it damages society.

That says more about modern marriage than it does about prostitution.

There are risks associated with everything. When I buy a car and drive it, I risk getting into a crash. When I smoke a cigarette, I risk getting lung cancer. Similarly, if I used a prostitute, I would risk getting an STD. As long as I am aware of the risks, I don't see how prostitution differs from many other legal practices.

But if you're in a car crash and your wife isn't there, does she run the risk of catching a car crash from you?

That's the problem with confusing freedom with license. Responsible, free citizens consider the ramifications of their actions. Whatever we do has consequences that carry to our families and beyond. If we alone were affected by our malfeasance, it might be a compelling argument, but we are not.

Paladin

Are you sure you want to keep prostitution illegal or criminalize adultery? The argument you are putting forth has nothing to do with prostitution, but rather the consequences of a married man going out and getting an STD from unprotected sex, whether it is with a prostitute, a one-night stand, a fling, or a coworker.

Except for one thing: the prostitute has several sexual partners and the disease can spread to all of them. Usually the "fling" or "one-night stand," if the man isn't paying for the privilege of doing it, is not with a "working girl." Generally the non-professional doesn't have as many contacts as the prostitute. The spread of disease should be enough to curtail extramarital activity with whomever. It doesn't, though.

Outlaw adultery? If one wanted to, it could not be done.

When a married man sleeps with someone else, he is risking only himself to a potential STD. A woman who sleeps with her husband is also taking a risk that he could be an adulterer and acquired an STD.

My point is, you can't equate the man who hired the prostitute to the woman who sleeps with her husband. By sleeping with the prostitute, I put myself in danger. By sleeping with her husband, the wife puts herself in danger. The man sleeping with the prostitute does not put his wife in danger. Because sex is consensual, both sides will always take risks, no matter if the partner is a husband or a prostitute. The wife makes a risk as well.

Besides, your argument hinges on the idea of marriage. If that is the only reason to disallow prostitution, there would be no reason that an unmarried man should be barred from a prostitute.

The prostitute can be regulated to use condoms if we made it legal. The prostitute can be mandated to test for STD every quarter or so. Just like drugs, if i want a prostitute I or any other person can go get one. If you truly care about the spread of diseases to unsuspected victims, then you would be for regulating prostitution to make it safer. Keeping it illegal protects no one.

On another note, this is personal so it can't be proven, but almost every guy I heard talk about getting an STD, including myself(chlamydia) have gotten it from some other sexual source outside a prostitute. In fact, I have heard plenty on stories of someone catching something from a "ho" but never, not one story, about a prostitute. does this mean it doesn't happen, no . But

1 out of 4people in the United States will contract a sexually transmitted disease (STD) by the time they reach adulthood.

The likelihood is that you are not going to get the STD from a prostitute. Basically I am saying I am not understanding the logic behind we should not legalize prostitution due to it will spread disease at some catastrophic rate