Full Version: Iraq War: the Final Debate
Ok what i have layed out is a huge amount of information that will make a case for the iraq war...and then ask the question of whether it was justified. We all know that pre-war intelligence on Iraq was, to say the least, not good. But, President Bush had to make a decision with the information given to him, and lets find out if he made one with American interests involved. I did my best...
*Note: some sourcesmay be deemed conservative, but that doesn't mean they are wrong
Saddam's Relationship with Bin laden
9/11 Commission Final Report
FOX News
[quote=Page 66]"In July [1998], an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with bin Laden...Similar meetings between Iraqi officials and bin Laden — or his aides may have occurred in 1999 during a period of some reported strains with the Taliban. According to the reporting, Iraqi officials offered bin Laden a safe haven in Iraq. But to date, we have seen no evidence that these or earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship, nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with Al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States."[/quote]
UN Report- Iraq WMDs
UN Report- October 95
[quote](x) In summary, Iraq has declared the production of at least 19,000 litres of concentrated botulinum toxin (nearly 10,000 litres were filled into munitions), 8,500 litres of concentrated anthrax (some 6,500 litres were filled into munitions) and 2,200 litres of concentrated aflatoxin (1,580 litres were filled into munitions);
<snip>
76. Iraq's biological weapons programme as described to the Commission embraced a comprehensive range of agents and munitions. Agents under Iraq's biological weapons programme included lethal agents, e.g. anthrax, botulinum toxin and ricin, and incapacitating agents, e.g. aflatoxin, mycotoxins, haemorrhagic conjunctivitis virus and rotavirus. The scope of biological warfare agents worked on by Iraq encompassed both anti-personnel and anti-plant weapons. The programme covered a whole variety of biological weapons delivery means, from tactical weapons (e.g. 122 mm rockets and artillery shells), to strategic weapons (e.g. aerial bombs and Al Hussein warheads filled with anthrax, botulinum toxin and aflatoxin) and "economic" weapons, e.g. wheat cover smut. Given the Iraqi claim that only five years had elapsed since its declared inception in 1985, the achievements of Iraq's biological weapons programme were remarkable.
<snip>
80. In spite of the substantial new disclosures made by Iraq since mid-August, the Commission does not believe that Iraq has given a full and correct account of its biological weapons programme. The Commission intends to continue its intensive inspection, verification and analytical efforts with the objective of presenting to the Security Council, as soon as possible, its assessments of Iraq's compliance with the biological weapons-related provisions of Security Council resolution 687 (1991). Success will depend on Iraq's cooperation with these efforts and its complete openness, including provision to the Commission of all documentation and of a truly full, final and complete disclosure of Iraq's proscribed biological weapons programme[/quote]
UN Report- Iraq WMDs popping up in Jordan+Netherlands
UNMOVIC Report ***IMPORTANT***
UNMOVIC Comes Clean on Saddam's WMD
UN: Iraqi Weapons Sites Looted
[quote]On June 9th, the UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission briefed the Security Council about the export of Iraqi WMD, missile and nuclear components shipped out of Iraq before, during and after the invasion. As reported by MENL news service, UNMOVIC acting executive chairman Demetrius Perricos told the Council, "The removal of these materials from Iraq raises concerns with regard to proliferation risks," and said inspectors found Iraqi WMD and missile components shipped abroad that still contained UN inspection tags.
The World Tribune reported on Perricos's briefing. "He said the Iraqi facilities were dismantled and sent both to Europe and around the Middle East at the rate of about 1,000 tons of metal a month... The Baghdad missile site contained a range of WMD and dual-use components, UN officials said. They included missile components, reactor vessel and fermenters ... required for the production of chemical and biological warheads. 'It raises the question of what happened to the dual-use equipment, where is it now and what is it being used for,' Perricos's spokesman, said. 'You can make all kinds of pharmaceutical and medicinal products with a fermenter. You can also use it to breed anthrax.'" [/quote]
[quote]UNMOVIC spokesperson Ewen Buchanan told Arms Control Today June 22 that commission experts found 20 more SA-2 engines at scrap yards in Jordan, along with other dual-use equipment that had been under UNMOVIC monitoring. Commission experts also found other items in the Rotterdam scrap yard made of “dual-use materials,” the May report explained[/quote]
Putin tells Bush of Saddam terrorism
U.S. unsure of Putin's Iraq claim
[quote]Washington, DC, Jun. 18 (UPI) -- U.S. officials were bemused when they heard Russian President Vladimir Putin's claims that he had warned Washington of terrorist attacks being planned by deposed Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein against the United States, a U.S. official said Friday.
<snip>
Earlier Friday, Putin told reporters Russian intelligence agencies had warned their U.S. counterparts after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks that Saddam was planning operations against the U.S. mainland and U.S. interests overseas.
Russian special services "received information of this sort on more than one occasion and passed it on to their U.S. counterparts," he said in Astana, Kazakhstan, adding Russia had no information "that the Saddam regime was involved in any acts of terrorism."[/quote]
Dr. Khidhir Hamza, the head of Saddam's Nuclear Weapons Program
HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE
[quote]The nuclear weapons program is now almost complete waiting for the enrichment sector, which makes 90% of the program to finish its job and put together a working production facility. The bottlenecks in the enrichment are already resolved. German sources provided Iraq with classified reports and a working unit in the centrifuge enrichment technology. This can reduce the time needed for research and development for a country like Iraq by at least ten years. The whole centrifuge technology was acquired for a little over a million dollars. This included state of the art carbon fiber cylinders. The recent announcement of interception of large orders for aluminum cylinders indicate that the process of putting together large enough units for full production is not complete yet. At the same time it also indicates that Iraq has already bypassed the initial testing and possibly pilot plant stage. Also Iraq always use duplicate sourcing of materials and supplies which may mean that it is already in possession of enough materials for a small scale production facility. My estimate is that Iraq may be in actual production in two years with enough accumulated product for two to three nuclear weapons in three years. The problem however remains that we are dealing with a series of indicators but no first hand witness. This I will deal with later in this statement.[/quote]
Clinton
Clinton for post-9/11 Iraq action
[quote]Bill Clinton says that no government could have failed to act against Iraq after the 11 September 2001 attacks in view of intelligence provided.[/quote]
Clinton believed Iraq had WMD
[quote]Former US president Bill Clinton said in October during a visit to Portugal that he was convinced Iraq had weapons of mass destruction up until the fall of Saddam Hussein, Portuguese Prime Minister Jose Manuel Durao Barroso said.
"When Clinton was here recently he told me he was absolutely convinced, given his years in the White House and the access to privileged information which he had, that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction until the end of the Saddam regime," he said in an interview with Portuguese cable news channel SIC Noticias.[/quote]
Democrats in 1998 Congressional Record
Iraq Liberation Act of 1998
Iraq attempts to buy uranium in Niger
Reports offer some support to Bush's Iraq-uranium claim
[quote]But the Senate committee disclosed other intelligence suggesting that Iraq was pursuing uranium.
The committee cited separate reports received from foreign intelligence services on October 15, 2001, and February 5, 2002, and March 25, 2002. The State Department doubted the accuracy of the reports, but the CIA and Defense Intelligence Agency had more confidence in them.
Though Wilson reported to U.S. officials there was "nothing to the story" that Niger sold uranium to Iraq, the CIA and DIA were intrigued by one element of his trip.
Wilson had said a former prime minister of Niger, Ibrahim Mayaki, mentioned a visit from an Iraqi delegation in 1999 that expressed interest in expanding commercial ties with Niger, the world's third largest producer of mined uranium. Mayaki believed this meant they were interested in buying uranium.
The British inquiry said it was generally accepted that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999, and there was intelligence from several sources that the visit was to acquire uranium. "Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger's exports, the intelligence was credible," the report said.
The Senate committee also described various reports about Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from French, British and unidentified foreign governments.[/quote]
Administration did not coerce intelligence
The Reality of Saddam's Threat
[quote]On Friday, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence released its "Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Pre-war Intelligence Assessment on Iraq." Although this report concluded that the Bush administration did not seek to "coerce, influence or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities," thereby decisively rebutting the oft-invoked charge that the administration had pushed the intelligence community to find a threat from Iraq, the president's opponents have been busy spinning the report's conclusions as evidence that Saddam Hussein simply posed no meaningful threat to the United States. They now assert that Saddam's Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction (WMDs), was so weak in conventional military forces that it presented no threat even to some of its smaller neighbors, and that, overall, the regime could have been safely contained for years to come.[/quote]
Possible places for the weapons
Connecting the dots
[quote]A Syrian journalist who defected to Europe told a Dutch newspaper Jan. 5 that chemical and biological weapons developed by Saddam Hussein's regime were being stored in tunnels dug under the town of al-Baida near the city of Hama in northern Syria; in the village of Tal Snan, near a big Syrian air force base, and on the Lebanese border south of the city of Homs. Nizar Najoef told the Dutch Telegraaf that the WMD transfer was organized by the commanders of Saddam's Special Republican Guard with the help of a cousin of Syrian strong man Bashir Assad. Najoef's remarks strengthen the view of some in U.S. and Israeli intelligence that many of Saddam's most deadly weapons were moved to Syria just before the war began. "People below the Saddam-Hussein-and-his-sons level saw what was coming and decided the best thing to do was to destroy and disperse," James Clapper, head of the National Imagery and Mapping Agency (since renamed the National Geo-Spatial Intelligence Agency), told the New York Times last October. [/quote]
WMD in Syria: Kay
[quote]David Kay, who recently resigned as leader of a U.S. weapons search team in Iraq, said part of captive president Saddam Hussein's weapons program was hidden in Syria, a report in Britain's Sunday Telegraph newspaper said today. Kay was reported to have said he had uncovered evidence unspecified materials were moved to Syria shortly before last year's U.S. invasion of Iraq.
"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons but we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD (weapons of mass destruction) program," Kay was reported saying in the interview conducted yesterday. [/quote]
US Suspects Iraq WMD in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley
Report: Syria hiding Iraqi WMD
Condoleezza Rice, the national-security adviser, addressing questions about the strength of the Administration’s case against Iraq, said, “We don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."
Ok...now that that is over with. It is time for the questions.
Questions for Debate:
1) With all this evidence, has your view of whether or not the war in iraq was justified... changed?
2) With intelligence from the US, UK, UN, Russia, and other agencies telling Bush Iraq had WMDs (even if faulty), Was President Bush really left with a choice in this post-9/11 world?
I tried...i will offer my opinion later on..but i am just too tired at the moment.
*Note: some sourcesmay be deemed conservative, but that doesn't mean they are wrong
Saddam's Relationship with Bin laden
9/11 Commission Final Report
FOX News
[quote=Page 66]"In July [1998], an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with bin Laden...Similar meetings between Iraqi officials and bin Laden — or his aides may have occurred in 1999 during a period of some reported strains with the Taliban. According to the reporting, Iraqi officials offered bin Laden a safe haven in Iraq. But to date, we have seen no evidence that these or earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship, nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with Al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States."[/quote]
UN Report- Iraq WMDs
UN Report- October 95
[quote](x) In summary, Iraq has declared the production of at least 19,000 litres of concentrated botulinum toxin (nearly 10,000 litres were filled into munitions), 8,500 litres of concentrated anthrax (some 6,500 litres were filled into munitions) and 2,200 litres of concentrated aflatoxin (1,580 litres were filled into munitions);
<snip>
76. Iraq's biological weapons programme as described to the Commission embraced a comprehensive range of agents and munitions. Agents under Iraq's biological weapons programme included lethal agents, e.g. anthrax, botulinum toxin and ricin, and incapacitating agents, e.g. aflatoxin, mycotoxins, haemorrhagic conjunctivitis virus and rotavirus. The scope of biological warfare agents worked on by Iraq encompassed both anti-personnel and anti-plant weapons. The programme covered a whole variety of biological weapons delivery means, from tactical weapons (e.g. 122 mm rockets and artillery shells), to strategic weapons (e.g. aerial bombs and Al Hussein warheads filled with anthrax, botulinum toxin and aflatoxin) and "economic" weapons, e.g. wheat cover smut. Given the Iraqi claim that only five years had elapsed since its declared inception in 1985, the achievements of Iraq's biological weapons programme were remarkable.
<snip>
80. In spite of the substantial new disclosures made by Iraq since mid-August, the Commission does not believe that Iraq has given a full and correct account of its biological weapons programme. The Commission intends to continue its intensive inspection, verification and analytical efforts with the objective of presenting to the Security Council, as soon as possible, its assessments of Iraq's compliance with the biological weapons-related provisions of Security Council resolution 687 (1991). Success will depend on Iraq's cooperation with these efforts and its complete openness, including provision to the Commission of all documentation and of a truly full, final and complete disclosure of Iraq's proscribed biological weapons programme[/quote]
UN Report- Iraq WMDs popping up in Jordan+Netherlands
UNMOVIC Report ***IMPORTANT***
UNMOVIC Comes Clean on Saddam's WMD
UN: Iraqi Weapons Sites Looted
[quote]On June 9th, the UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission briefed the Security Council about the export of Iraqi WMD, missile and nuclear components shipped out of Iraq before, during and after the invasion. As reported by MENL news service, UNMOVIC acting executive chairman Demetrius Perricos told the Council, "The removal of these materials from Iraq raises concerns with regard to proliferation risks," and said inspectors found Iraqi WMD and missile components shipped abroad that still contained UN inspection tags.
The World Tribune reported on Perricos's briefing. "He said the Iraqi facilities were dismantled and sent both to Europe and around the Middle East at the rate of about 1,000 tons of metal a month... The Baghdad missile site contained a range of WMD and dual-use components, UN officials said. They included missile components, reactor vessel and fermenters ... required for the production of chemical and biological warheads. 'It raises the question of what happened to the dual-use equipment, where is it now and what is it being used for,' Perricos's spokesman, said. 'You can make all kinds of pharmaceutical and medicinal products with a fermenter. You can also use it to breed anthrax.'" [/quote]
[quote]UNMOVIC spokesperson Ewen Buchanan told Arms Control Today June 22 that commission experts found 20 more SA-2 engines at scrap yards in Jordan, along with other dual-use equipment that had been under UNMOVIC monitoring. Commission experts also found other items in the Rotterdam scrap yard made of “dual-use materials,” the May report explained[/quote]
Putin tells Bush of Saddam terrorism
U.S. unsure of Putin's Iraq claim
[quote]Washington, DC, Jun. 18 (UPI) -- U.S. officials were bemused when they heard Russian President Vladimir Putin's claims that he had warned Washington of terrorist attacks being planned by deposed Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein against the United States, a U.S. official said Friday.
<snip>
Earlier Friday, Putin told reporters Russian intelligence agencies had warned their U.S. counterparts after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks that Saddam was planning operations against the U.S. mainland and U.S. interests overseas.
Russian special services "received information of this sort on more than one occasion and passed it on to their U.S. counterparts," he said in Astana, Kazakhstan, adding Russia had no information "that the Saddam regime was involved in any acts of terrorism."[/quote]
Dr. Khidhir Hamza, the head of Saddam's Nuclear Weapons Program
HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE
[quote]The nuclear weapons program is now almost complete waiting for the enrichment sector, which makes 90% of the program to finish its job and put together a working production facility. The bottlenecks in the enrichment are already resolved. German sources provided Iraq with classified reports and a working unit in the centrifuge enrichment technology. This can reduce the time needed for research and development for a country like Iraq by at least ten years. The whole centrifuge technology was acquired for a little over a million dollars. This included state of the art carbon fiber cylinders. The recent announcement of interception of large orders for aluminum cylinders indicate that the process of putting together large enough units for full production is not complete yet. At the same time it also indicates that Iraq has already bypassed the initial testing and possibly pilot plant stage. Also Iraq always use duplicate sourcing of materials and supplies which may mean that it is already in possession of enough materials for a small scale production facility. My estimate is that Iraq may be in actual production in two years with enough accumulated product for two to three nuclear weapons in three years. The problem however remains that we are dealing with a series of indicators but no first hand witness. This I will deal with later in this statement.[/quote]
Clinton
Clinton for post-9/11 Iraq action
[quote]Bill Clinton says that no government could have failed to act against Iraq after the 11 September 2001 attacks in view of intelligence provided.[/quote]
Clinton believed Iraq had WMD
[quote]Former US president Bill Clinton said in October during a visit to Portugal that he was convinced Iraq had weapons of mass destruction up until the fall of Saddam Hussein, Portuguese Prime Minister Jose Manuel Durao Barroso said.
"When Clinton was here recently he told me he was absolutely convinced, given his years in the White House and the access to privileged information which he had, that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction until the end of the Saddam regime," he said in an interview with Portuguese cable news channel SIC Noticias.[/quote]
Democrats in 1998 Congressional Record
Iraq Liberation Act of 1998
Iraq attempts to buy uranium in Niger
Reports offer some support to Bush's Iraq-uranium claim
[quote]But the Senate committee disclosed other intelligence suggesting that Iraq was pursuing uranium.
The committee cited separate reports received from foreign intelligence services on October 15, 2001, and February 5, 2002, and March 25, 2002. The State Department doubted the accuracy of the reports, but the CIA and Defense Intelligence Agency had more confidence in them.
Though Wilson reported to U.S. officials there was "nothing to the story" that Niger sold uranium to Iraq, the CIA and DIA were intrigued by one element of his trip.
Wilson had said a former prime minister of Niger, Ibrahim Mayaki, mentioned a visit from an Iraqi delegation in 1999 that expressed interest in expanding commercial ties with Niger, the world's third largest producer of mined uranium. Mayaki believed this meant they were interested in buying uranium.
The British inquiry said it was generally accepted that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999, and there was intelligence from several sources that the visit was to acquire uranium. "Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger's exports, the intelligence was credible," the report said.
The Senate committee also described various reports about Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from French, British and unidentified foreign governments.[/quote]
Administration did not coerce intelligence
The Reality of Saddam's Threat
[quote]On Friday, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence released its "Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Pre-war Intelligence Assessment on Iraq." Although this report concluded that the Bush administration did not seek to "coerce, influence or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities," thereby decisively rebutting the oft-invoked charge that the administration had pushed the intelligence community to find a threat from Iraq, the president's opponents have been busy spinning the report's conclusions as evidence that Saddam Hussein simply posed no meaningful threat to the United States. They now assert that Saddam's Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction (WMDs), was so weak in conventional military forces that it presented no threat even to some of its smaller neighbors, and that, overall, the regime could have been safely contained for years to come.[/quote]
Possible places for the weapons
Connecting the dots
[quote]A Syrian journalist who defected to Europe told a Dutch newspaper Jan. 5 that chemical and biological weapons developed by Saddam Hussein's regime were being stored in tunnels dug under the town of al-Baida near the city of Hama in northern Syria; in the village of Tal Snan, near a big Syrian air force base, and on the Lebanese border south of the city of Homs. Nizar Najoef told the Dutch Telegraaf that the WMD transfer was organized by the commanders of Saddam's Special Republican Guard with the help of a cousin of Syrian strong man Bashir Assad. Najoef's remarks strengthen the view of some in U.S. and Israeli intelligence that many of Saddam's most deadly weapons were moved to Syria just before the war began. "People below the Saddam-Hussein-and-his-sons level saw what was coming and decided the best thing to do was to destroy and disperse," James Clapper, head of the National Imagery and Mapping Agency (since renamed the National Geo-Spatial Intelligence Agency), told the New York Times last October. [/quote]
WMD in Syria: Kay
[quote]David Kay, who recently resigned as leader of a U.S. weapons search team in Iraq, said part of captive president Saddam Hussein's weapons program was hidden in Syria, a report in Britain's Sunday Telegraph newspaper said today. Kay was reported to have said he had uncovered evidence unspecified materials were moved to Syria shortly before last year's U.S. invasion of Iraq.
"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons but we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD (weapons of mass destruction) program," Kay was reported saying in the interview conducted yesterday. [/quote]
US Suspects Iraq WMD in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley
Report: Syria hiding Iraqi WMD
Condoleezza Rice, the national-security adviser, addressing questions about the strength of the Administration’s case against Iraq, said, “We don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."
Ok...now that that is over with. It is time for the questions.
Questions for Debate:
1) With all this evidence, has your view of whether or not the war in iraq was justified... changed?
2) With intelligence from the US, UK, UN, Russia, and other agencies telling Bush Iraq had WMDs (even if faulty), Was President Bush really left with a choice in this post-9/11 world?
I tried...i will offer my opinion later on..but i am just too tired at the moment.
<div><table width='50%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' style='border: 1px solid black' align='center'><tr><td class='maintitle'>
Topic closed...</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Reason: Duplicate topic.<br /><br />Recommended action: Please use the search feature to locate a similar topic. If you are unable to find a similar topic, please contact the staff member who closed the topic by clicking the PM button below this post.<br /><br />Helpful links:<br /> - Simple Search<br /> - Advanced Search<br /> - Starting New Topics<br /> - Survival Guide<br /> - The Rules<br /> - Staff Directory<br /></td></tr><tr><td class='darkrow1'><div align='center'>Note: This is an automated response.</div></td></tr></table></div>
This is already being debated in a number of places:
Flawed intelligence or negligence?, Was it really flawed intelligence?
Senate Says Bad Iraqi Intel
What is the war about?, Clash of civilizations?
Join us in any of those threads
Topic closed...</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Reason: Duplicate topic.<br /><br />Recommended action: Please use the search feature to locate a similar topic. If you are unable to find a similar topic, please contact the staff member who closed the topic by clicking the PM button below this post.<br /><br />Helpful links:<br /> - Simple Search<br /> - Advanced Search<br /> - Starting New Topics<br /> - Survival Guide<br /> - The Rules<br /> - Staff Directory<br /></td></tr><tr><td class='darkrow1'><div align='center'>Note: This is an automated response.</div></td></tr></table></div>This is already being debated in a number of places:
Flawed intelligence or negligence?, Was it really flawed intelligence?
Senate Says Bad Iraqi Intel
What is the war about?, Clash of civilizations?
Join us in any of those threads
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