I normally don't get involved in the abortion debate, but I think this is something that should be mentioned.


Planned Parenthood is now offering a new t shirt with the words "I had an abortion" for women to wear. Although Planned Parent hood does not make the shirt, they do offer it at their web site and at booths they set up(even one they had set up outside the DNC convention).

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/9259278.htm?1c


Questions for debate:

Does this hurt the credibility of Planned Parenthood?

And as a side question:

Does this change your opinion of Planned Parenthood?

Does this hurt the credibility of Planned Parenthood?

I don't think it does. Abortion (and Planned Parenthood) is something that people generally have very strong feelings about the subject. It will take a lot more than a t-shirt to change anyone's mind one iota on the subject.

Does this change your opinion of Planned Parenthood?

Not all (see above). In fact I like the shirts. Anything that is guaranteed to offend and anger the oppressive cultists trying to run our lives is good in my book.

Does this hurt the credibility of Planned Parenthood?

Yes. It's tasteless. Though I am pro choice, I think this is despicable. Having to make the decision to have an abortion, shouldn't be a badge of courage to wear on your shirt. There are countless, nameless women who have had abortions under life changing, horrible circumstances and to have it made into a "logo" to be SOLD on a website is disgusting, in my opinion.

Does this change your opinion of Planned Parenthood?

Yes, very much so, for the worse, unfortunately.

I don't like it - even though I am definitely pro-choice, I believe that abortion should be a option which is not be taken lightly (not for moral or religious reasons but simply because of significant physical and psychological stress associated with the procedure). While there's nothing to be ashamed of, this is not a badge of honor of any sort to be worn on a sleeve. I think it cheapens the cause a little bit.
Does it change my opinion of Planned parenthood? No, not really... I believe they still do a good job overall. This is just a bad PR move (hopefully someone is getting reprimanded for that one...)

I'm pro choice, but I think this shirt is tasteless. Having an abortion is a right and a viable option for many women, but it should never be worn as a badge of honor. I think they're trying to change culture in a negative way. Abortion should be a last resort not a hobby. I think it hurts their credibility very much.

I believe Susan Estrich presented Planned Parenthoods side well on the O'Reilly portion of the Fox coverage last night. In a nutshell, it is a woman's (who wears the shirt) attempt to bring out into the open and show her willingness to discuss the circumstances of her abortion. It is not meant to be a badge of honor but a segue to discourse. Susan then discussed with O'Reilly the circumstances of her abortion, this conversation brought tears to my eyes (as well as hers) and O'Reilly showed a great deal of respect for her after that. It would appear to me that there is some merit in what these T-Shirts lead to. I highly doubt any woman is proud of her choice to have an abortion, what some are now willing to do, is talk about how they came to their decision. I see it as very brave of them to open themselves up to such discussions.


Since this is not being done by Planned Parenthood but by abortion recipients, this in no way affects my opinion of Planned Parenthood.

Does this hurt the credibility of Planned Parenthood?

And as a side question:

Does this change your opinion of Planned Parenthood?
I'm right there with mindmesh, English Horn and Billie Jean-I think it's crass and tasteless, and does more harm than good for the pro-choice position. I can't picture any woman who has had an abortion proudly advertising the fact. It just provides more fodder for the anti-choicers to show what uncaring, unfeeling, horrible, etc. those pro-choice people are. This almost ranks up there with the gigantic pictures of aborted fetuses the anti-choice people use...ALMOST, but not quite.

Then why not where a shirt that says, " I Was Raped!!"

Because that would be insulting and offensive. It's a shame that happened to her, but wearing this shirt is not going to be a conversation starter; it's going to be desensitization. Though I am pro choice, I do believe the stigma is a good thing. Something like abortion should never be mainstream, but the right should never be denied.

I believe mainstream would mean that people who really don't want an abortion would get one as it is now fashionable? I never feared abortion mainstreaming as I doubt it will ever be a woman's goal to get pregnant just to have the opportunity to abort. Speaking as a woman whom Thank God, never had to make that decision, I have no intention of wearing the shirt. I have to ask, exactly why should these woman be ashamed? I personally do not pass judgment on anyone's choices as it is not my place to do so.

Article Link


The way I see it is, If I put the shirt on, I would expect to be confronted, I would then expect to have to justify my decision. I consider that to be dialogue.

As for the Rape comparison, I see nothing wrong with a T-Shirt saying that as well. Unless of course I felt the Victim was to blame.

Statement of Gloria Feldt, president of Planned Parenthood Federation of America:



I Had A Vasectomy

PP generated controversy two years ago with "Choice on Earth" Christmas cards. Religious groups were predictably furious. PP took a chance and came out no worse for wear. I liked the cards.

Like any medical procedure women don't make the decision lightly. There's still room for privacy when sharing appreciation for having a legal choice. I think this is how the card differs. The t-shirt is a joining of politics and marketing coming together at a fatal intersection. I understand what Feldt is trying to accomplish, stop the issue from morphing into an unspeakable taboo, but it can backfire on PP in ways the Christmas card can't.

Does this change your opinion of Planned Parenthood?

Abortion aside it will take a lot for me to change my opinion of PP. As a college student making ends meet they never turned me away and put me on a sliding pay scale. I can afford a general practitioner now but still use PP for exams.

By mainstream, I mean that abortion becomes a socially acceptable form of birth control, and though I am pro choice, I think that is a bad idea. Certain things should have a stigma associated with them. I know a few girl that have had multiple abortions. They'd need a little chalk board to go with their shirt.

I wouldn't think any less of a person for having an abortion, but it is becoming too common.



This is a little different. See your equating an abortion with Birth control.. If a woman wanted to wear an "I had my Tubes Tied" T-Shirt, I'd think it was stupid, but not on the same level as the abortion shirt.

Someone here just brought up a story about his buddy who wore a shirt with a hanger on it and some food coloring with the slogan" I survived an abortion". Would you consider that tasteless?

This is an interesting statement. Would you care to provide the evidence to back up the assertion that the number of abortions has even increased at all, let alone that they are becoming common.

Any evidence, or would you qualify this as opinion?



Actually, you were the one who equated abortion with birth control:


Um, abortion IS birth control.


edited: spelling

I should've said something about the vasectomy slogan. :) I didn't want to make procedural comparisons but illustrate that people usually don't want to discuss an operation they had with strangers, regardless of whether there is controversy tied to their decision or not.



I consider that free speech, which is more important than my personal tastes and my pro-choice view on abortion. This buddy has as much a right to the t-shirt as protesters at an abortion clinic waving color photos of the consequences of abortion in front of women entering clinics to ask for abortions.

It confirms the same position I have always held that PP is not so much a pro-choice as a pro-abortion organization. Abortion services is where PP makes a good share of their money. They should not have access to our public schools. We discussed the true nature of PP at this thread http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...topic=3262&st=0

I will quote myself from the abortion thread, Sept. 10,2003.



The T-shirts simply confirm my previously held beliefs.

Because you know a few Girls that lack the moral fortitude to consider the gravity of their decision to abort, then all woman should be ashamed of their circumstances and personal decision to abort? Whether some woman wear a T-Shirt or not will in no way change the fact that a few ignorant girls (or a few ignorant people) exist in our society. If one fears that a few T-Shirts will sway or corrupt the morals of the woman in society as a whole then I can only deduce from that opinion that one feels woman as a whole must lack the capacity of independent thought and a personal moral compass. Well that is not one of my fears as I give woman more credit than that. Yes, every person has the right to be offended by whatever offends them, that does not negate my right to say, Bravo for your willingness to share your personal experiences as we all can learn from each other.

Personal experiences..



I never equated the two... I said that it should never become mainstream and to me mainstream means that abortion becomes a socially acceptable form of birth control.





Thank you for making my point...






I agree, but that doesn't mean it's in good taste.. I never said someone shouldn't be allowed to wear the shirt, I just think it's in poor taste for them too, and in even poorer taste for Planned Parenthood to be selling them..





A few now. It was even fewer 10 years ago, and it will be even more 10 years from now.





Uh oh... I must hate woman.. Thank you for putting it into perspective for me.. All these years and I had not a clue..

I never denied the moral fortitude of women as a whole.. Look at the comment above. Some women do consider it a viable option of birth control. It shouldn't be. It should be for extreme circumstances, not because some girl got knocked up because her and her man couldn't be responsible enough to take the proper precautions.

It would really help your position if you could back this up with some links, or facts. As it stands now, one must consider that it is quite possible that you may just tend towards poor choices in friends, if so many of the people you know use abortion as a contraceptive.




Only you are able to determine whether you base your position from misogyny. All I can say in response to the above statement is.. I guess , I am happy to be of assistance in your new found self realization?

Like I said before everybody is entitled to their opinion, entitled to be offended, or not offended.

(Oh boy, another thread dealing with abortions. Strike up Ren & Stimpy's Happy Happy Joy Joy song... )



It hurts the credibility of Planned Parenthood only for those who did not believe it is an activist organization.

I was surprised about the T-shirt--too much information, e.g., the FedEx commercial where the guy is grousing over the phone about the package being delivered on time: "I was going through a complex exfoliation. I will explain..."



I respect the fact that Planned Parenthood provides contraception and medical exams for women, but I respect them less for this.

Obviously, if a woman feels that strongly about identifying herself in such a way for "the cause," that is her prerogative. But I personally would not want to be known by strangers for having had an abortion if they knew nothing else about me--how would that promote acceptance?

I find the T shirt Disturbing. Not a good way to debate this issue. Personally i am agaist abortion but at the same time would NEVER allow any one else (Especially government and wacko spirit worshippers)to tell me what I can do with my own body and life.
The necessary debate on abortion is--IMO-- so far of course from where it needs to be. There are still far too many women who grow up without a healthy sense of self esteem. They really need to be taught better that no guy they will meet B4 25 is ever worth it (most men aren't worth a ..... til 30 ).

Sex is great and sex is fun and sex breakin furniture and scarin the neighbors is best, but there is a price that can occur for not being careful. Contraception is still an afterthought far to much in this society. Have everything now.
So many different ways to have really great sex and not have to worry about pregnancy.

Not too mention the Third party option of sex that requires no other teammates.
But the rightists would be outraged if you mention masturbation.

All this shirt will do is increase hostility towards the right of women to have control over their own bodies. It will be used as a spike by "conservatives" to seal the coffin a little more on the right to choose for all of us.

I was simply pointing out a defiition for you.
From dictionary.com: brith control: n : limiting the number of children born
You make no point by classifying abortion as birth control because at the fundamental level it IS birth control. By definition. It controls the number of births.
Your statement reeks of holier-than-thouness.



All this is your opinion of course. Some of us feel that what we do with our own bodies shouldn't be legislated by what society thinks we "should" or "ought to" do. I bet all you men would feel the same way if your bodies were the ones being legislated by society.

Here's a picture of the controversial T-shirt in question:

"I had an abortion."

I guess I'm in the minority here. This doesn't seem to be in bad taste to me at all. Of course, it would not be appropriate for all situations, but that would be true of any T-shirt supporting any political position.

Here is the message of the T-shirt as I see it. "I am a normal woman who has had an abortion. I am not an immoral monster. I want to keep abortion safe and legal."

Not everybody will agree with this message, of course, but here it seems to be expressed in a calm, minimally confrontational way.

I see nothing wrong (in the appropriate situations) with T-shirts that say "I was raped." In the proper setting, it would send a very powerful message that the victims of rape are ordinary men and women who need not be ashamed.

This situation makes me feel a little better about Planned Parenthood than I did before. These T-shirts are in good taste, and will help a little to remove the stigmata of shame that may be associated with abortion.

I own and often wear a shirt that says in plain white letters on a black background "terrorist." Am I terrorist? No, nor do I want to be one. I for many reasons am disgusted with the loose use of the word. I wear the shirt becuase it *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** people off and sometimes they ask me about it. Then I get to explain and enter into a political conversation often with people who know little about politics.

Sure, maybe my shirt is tasteless... so? My taste seems to include such shirts, so before you go and call my shirt tasteless for yourself consider that it is all a matter of perspective. Taste is personal.

As for PP's shirt, I think it's great. People need to stop being scared to of the abortion issue. I think that a lot of people who define themselves as pro-life are in complete denial of the circumstance that might convince someone to consider one. Any time you let yourself become ignorant you injure your ability to see the world from an objective stance. Shirts like these cause people to question their views or at least express them, and thus invite change. Im glad to see it out there.

Does this hurt the credibility of Planned Parenthood?

In my opinion, not really. Maybe if someone jumped to conclusions, and assumed the wearer of the shirt intended to inflame and offend out of spite. But after hearing of, and reading the reasons behind, the T-Shirt, it seems like it is intended to help combat the stigma and encourage conversation. Sometimes it will succeed at this and sometimes it will fail, but personally I judge the situation based on the intent.

Does this change your opinion of Planned Parenthood?

No, not really.

Initially I thought is was incredbly in poor taste until I saw it..thanks Victoria for the pic. Its almost understated, like an admittance of something humbling, almost a scarlet letter, a scarlett letter could be worn with humility and prideful protest as well.

Yet, Im not sure why anyone would wear such a thing. Having an abortion is so personal. Something inside me says its wrong to make light of such a thing and inflict it on others on a T-shirt.

Lets say soldiers came back and started wearing t-shirts saying
" I killed an Iraqi" in the subtle same way, even as a protest. Would we feel sorry for them or be angry that they were projecting it? There wasnt any fault..yet...theres just bad taste in it.

Truthfully I think, its just too much confrontation, we need a little more grace and couth in our society which is severely lacking these days. What happened to being 'civilized' and keeping some things where they belong...in our skeleton closets or with close friends and family?

I am pro-choice, but I feel hurt by this somehow, as if we have become just too flagrant in our self interest to the point of taking something so sacred and blaring it for all to see. Activism has its place and time. Its not neccesary to confront others in non-activist situations with something like this.

I dont think anything worse of Planned Parenthood, at all. If Planned Parenthood would be allowed and helped to do what they do best, which is educate and provide cheap STD/ PAP testing and provide reliable birth control and GYN sources- the entire world would be a better place for all of us in the short AND especially the long-term. Impoverished communities in the US ( who have many more children) and the third world are suffering greatly because of our funding cutbacks, not because of abortion counseling, but the educational family planning aspect that PP has always maintained as its primary objective. If you get people on birth control they dont need abortions.

I do not understand this explanation.

Why should there be a shame or social stigma attached to a legal medical procedure? There will be and have always been those who use abortion as a way to tidy up their mistakes, but for every woman I've known that has had an abortion it was the most traumatizing and serious decision they ever had to make.

It's bad enough that a woman has to terminate a pregnancy. We want her to feel guilty about it too?

Thanks Victoria Silverwolf for the link to the illustration of what the T-shirt actually looks like. It's simple, understated and mildly disturbing in a way. I do not think a woman would wear it as a badge of honor. Rather, it appears to be a way to put a human face to what for some is an abstract concept.

Last week, Operation: Save America (formely Operation: Rescue) came to my city for a week long vigil and prayer rally against homosexuality, Islam and abortion. One cute little tactic the demonstrators used was to stand on the overpass of the freeways holding up graphic photos of aborted fetuses. They also had a van with more graphic pictures slowly crusing the downtown lunch bunch.

Nice.

Abortion is a unfortunate reality, but I don't want women to go back to the days of clothes hangers and back-alley butchery. Abortion should be kept safe, legal and a rare procedure. I doubt any of my friends will be sporting such a T-shirt, but neither should they have to wear a scarlet "A" to satisfy those who think women should feel ashamed of their decisions.

Omigawd! A couple of years ago, when I was working in Orange County, there was a slow-moving convoy of 5 big panel trucks with gigantic full-color photos of aborted fetuses on the sides and backs of the trucks on the 405 freeway at rush hour. I was so mad, I flipped 'em the bird...several times. This must be a nationwide tactic by these scumbags. Interesting to hear they've changed their name. I didn't realize all of America needed "saving" by these yahoos.

I still think the T-shirt is crass...but it is a heckuva lot less tasteless than the above tactics.

Does this hurt the credibility of Planned Parenthood?

Not so sure about credibility being hurt but it certainly isn't helping my perception of them.


And as a side question:

Does this change your opinion of Planned Parenthood?

Not really. While I agree Planned Parenthood provides essential services I think they should keep to the business of supplying such services and refrain from supporting such antagonistic attempts to forward their agenda.

I believe what the T-Shirt slogan is designed to do is challenge the stigma some may attach to having an abortion of convenience. By using such *in your face* tactics I doubt they will change many minds.

Does this hurt the credibility of Planned Parenthood?

I see nothing wrong with a t-shirt designed to encourage conversation and give a human face to this controversial procedure. I applaud Planned Parenthood for taking a step to help end the stigma that is attached to this procedure; it is unfortunate that t-shirts alone can't do it. I'm sure some will see it as controversial and divisive, but is it any more divisive than the pictures of aborted fetuses and closed-minded view of the issue that numerous pro-lifers take? Absolutely not. It is a civil and nonintrusive way to start a dialog; more so than most things I have heard from the pro-life camp (I know that they usually conduct themselves in a civil manner, but all we hear about are the murders, the bombings, and the out-of-control protesters-- such is the way of the media). Compare the "I had an Abortion" shirt to this lovely collection of shirts I found on the Operation: Save America website:

Operation: Save America Store

And yes, one even says "INTOLERANT" in big, bold letters: perhaps it should read "INTOLERANT AND IGNORANT" . Is the Planned Parenthood shirt more tasteless than the "Homosexuality is a sin! Islam is a lie! Abortion is murder!" shirt? Is it more divisive than the "Pro-Life Without Compromise, Without Exception, Without Apology" shirt? More than the miniature cemetery for all the children aborted (based on their fictitious weekly average) that is displayed prominently at a church in my area? Come on. At least it is an attempt at civility and open dialogue, something that both sides could use in this debate.


Does this change your opinion of Planned Parenthood?

I applaud their effort to end the ostracism for women who've had abortions; this only makes me respect and admire them even more.

Because it it is a mistake and mistakes should have negative stigmas, else they wouldn't be mistakes. If you have to get an abortion, you messed up big time. And, yes, you should feel that way. I think what mindmesh is saying is that if you get to a point where there isn't a negative stigma attached to abortions, then you have gotten to the point where it is no longer viewed as a mistake to have unwanted pregnancies. I may be pro-choice, but I know that if you don't bother that fetus it will grow to be a human being, more times than not. I, also, want it to be a decision that requires restless nights. As to them feeling guilty, I'm not so sure the guilt has as much to do with the public, but rather herself.

Mistake to who, droop224 and mindmesh? I've read confessions of women who regret their abortion(s) on websites. Pro-life organizations capitalize on the emotional trauma as anecdotes to choice. These women call abortion a mistake; PP is putting the other side of the controversy forward at the request of women who don't regret their abortion to counteract the pro-life mantra that all women are hurt by abortion. Oddly enough they are women from all over the states whose stories carry a terrible common theme: they couldn't get their money back, they were forced to lie down, they were violated during the procedure, they didn't (gasp!) know how human looking the fetus is. I remember pictures of pink and skin-toned fetuses in high school reproductive class. One confession was about a woman who, after recounting what a horrible mistake the first abortion was, went back for a second abortion even though she wanted the child to appease her husband. I guess he is as guilty of forcing an abortion on her as Planned Parenthood is.

Women who've had abortions have a right to feel however they will about the procedure, including regretting their decision and calling it a mistake. If convincing themselves that they had no input in the abortion balms their conscience so they can sleep at night, fine by me. Planned Parenthood offices that commit crimes outside normal medical practices (state by state parental notification laws, waiting periods, and offering brochures with alternatives to abortion), wether administrative or procedural, should be sued. End of story. But I take exception to these women moralizing abortion is wrong after exercising their choice.

Edit: Made a correction for clarification.

I agree. I also think that is the underlying, main objective of the shirt. To show that there are women who don't regret their choice, or at least don't moralize abortion is wrong (as in should-be-illegal) after the fact. It isn't truly a thoughtful conversation starter, let's not kid ourselves. Anyone who has ever spent five minutes on an abortion debate knows that minds are set on this issue. I rather believe that the shirt wearer is likely to be a target for abuse.

Does this hurt the credibility of Planned Parenthood? No. I think the shirt is a bad PR move, but those who don't like PP are likely reaffirming the reasons they don't. Those who support PP likely still do. Minds are made up on PP, as they are on the abortion issue.

Does this change your opinion of Planned Parenthood? No, not really.

That's your opinion droop224 and you're entitled to it, but there's just one little problem with it:

It's sexist. Sexist as can be.

"If you have to get an abortion, you messed up big time." Whoa! What about the man who impregnated her? Where does he fit in this equation? Yeah, she allowed him to get her pregnant, but why is the man totally absolved of ANY responsibility in this little melodrama?

Irresponsible men spread their seed very carelessly. Why not? It's not like they have any reason to lose sleep, gain weight, suffer morning sickness and all the other lovely side effects of an unplanned pregnancy. They aren't the one who has to make the difficult and painful decision to terminate a pregancy. Men can be happy-go-lucky and walk away whistling a tune while they look for their next bed-buddy. The consequences of their actions escape them.

I, also, want it to be a decision that requires restless nights. For WHO? Not the dude who drops his load in her womb and walks away his conscience clear. He got his swerve on and whatever else happens---well, "Mama's baby, Daddy's maybe."

I'm appalled that there are men who would describe themselves as "pro-choice" but believe any woman who have abortions should be racked with guilt for not bringing a unwanted and possibly unloved child into the world. Does that apply as well to women who are impregnated through rape or incest? Does that apply to women who abort because they can't safely go full-term?

"Go ahead and have a abortion. But you'd better feel guilty afterward."

I know several women who have had abortions. It was pure HELL for them. It was not a casual decision by any means. "Let's see. I've got to pick up my dry cleaning, work out, pick up some pasta for tonight and stop to get an abortion. Wow, my day is so full."

That may be how it works for a few, but the selfish actions of a few do not represent the genuine trauma of the many.

Nighttimer has made an excellent point. Unfortunately, women are the
ones who not only bear the burden of childbirth, we bear the burden
of such difficult decisions, like abortion.



It may hurt the credibility of P.P. for those of us who have difficulty
with bold statements. It is a very honest, in-your-face way of attempting
to bridge the gap between abortion and the stigma associated with it.
Truth be told, women of all walks of life have had, and will have, abortions.



Not one iota. Planned Parenthood is a necessary organization that has
helped women of all races, ages, religions, classes. I have a great
appreciation for their cause.

I agree with Artemise about issues such as abortion being kept private.
It is obviously an emotionally difficult decision to make, and not one that
a person would take pride in, yet it is a decision that must be available.
It is noone's place to judge a woman for exercising her freedom of
choice.

Such a t-shirt would not be necessary if people would allow women
the peace of mind, and the privacy they deserve, on the issue of abortion.

As a side note: Context is everything. If you saw Oprah Winfrey
wearing the shirt you'd have a different reaction than if you saw Courtney
Love wearing such a shirt. At least, I would.

Nighttimer


I am not sure what exactly you are saying is an opinion as most of what we are saying is, but I am going to presume that you are speaking of my use of the term "mistake". Well, I think it is more of a generalization rather than an off the wall opinion. Why would they be having an abortion, unless the pregnancy is a mistake?? Of course I will readily admit you have circumstances of rape or health issues, but for the most part a woman is going to have an abortion because she got pregnant, but didn't want to. Is it really that much of an opinion to characterize this as "she made a mistake"? For instance, if I meant to vote for Al Gore, but punched the wrong whole and voted for Pat Buchanan...then I made a mistake. Do you think that there are many women out there going..."why should I use condoms, I can just get an abortion"....I don't.

As to it being sexist....spare me the drama Are you serious?? Is there anything more sexist then the way abortion laws are set up in this country?? And it favors the women, at least they have options.

Take this scenario

A 18 year old college student has just got news that they will me a parent in 9 months. This will destroy their future so they opt to have an abortion?

Who thinks they should be able to??? Let's here all the pro choice people scream..MEEE!!!

Now, that person happens to be a man I wonder want percent of the pro choice people are still screaming MEEEE!!

It seems to me men are the only one's who can't escape the consequences of their actions.

You want the man to feel an equal amount of responsibility, while have absolutely no legal influence on the decision of having the baby. Now that's sexist!! If I get a woman pregnant and want the baby, she can go have an abortion and destroy it... it's her body. If she is pregnant and I want her to destroy it, because I'm not ready, she can have the baby and hit me up for child support.
The bottom line is the man "should have thought about it before he did it" and deal with whatever ramifications, while the women "should be able to choose the direction of her life".


So why should any man lose sleep when he has nothing to ponder over?? Is he going to make the decision for her?? She's going to have the restless night because it's her body, her decision, and more likely than not, that's exactly how she wants it.



As for guilt, again, I doubt there are many men that think she should have extreme guilt, but from what I have heard women say, they do. So fortunate for you you want have to be appalled at too many men, if any. Saying that there should be a negative stigma on abortion is not saying they should feel guilty. It is a traumatic event, as you and I have both heard. You would rather have people use other forms of birth control rather than abortions. And the guilt is going to come from within that individual, not those around her.

Lastly, off topic, but important. I mentioned a couple of time men having choices and abortions. I wasn't suggesting men be able to force women have abortions, but rather be allowed to financially abort their children.

If someone wishes to wear that shirt, power to them. I find the shirt tasteless, but unless I am their employer or they represent me through some contractual obligation, who cares if I think it is tasteless. I would not sooner wear a shirt which notified everyone of my succesful hernia operation nor of the Star Wars action figure I successfully shoplifted at 8 years old. The funny thing about such a shirt is that it won't alter anyone's opinion of the procedure. People who think abortion is murder will continue to think so, and those don't won't be swayed either. I guess I see PP's desired effect. It just seems meeting the anti-abortion lunatic fringe at their own level is unfortunate. Up until recently, the pro-aboriton crowd could at least claim to be the more sane of the two sides. Now, the two have kinded melded into one large, screaming, mental masturbating, rigid mob. Neither side will use reason. Both are just surviving on emotion. What was the real goal here? Woman's empowerment? Population control? Religious sanctity? I don't know anymore. Neither does either movement. I will continue to wear my own shirts which contain stupid logos and dumb catch phrases. They may be tasteless to some, but at least no one will be able to identify me as the guy who had seven inches of his small intestine removed in a botched dental procedure.