My sister and I were discussing chivalry the other day and how it does/does not conflict with equal rights for women. I started thinking about various scenarios in my life and how chivalry was not seen. Like if a woman is with a child (in a stroller) it is more likely you will see another woman helping her carry it up the subway stairs. If a pregnant woman can’t get a seat on the subway another woman is more likely to give hers up. Recently there was a girl who was trying to get an extremely heavy package down some stairs, I offered to help her, 3 men walked by as we struggled and didn’t offer to help.

I read this article and the author makes the following points (Male chivalry a lost tradition; keep kindness alive ):


Questions for debate:
Is chivalry in direct conflict with a woman’s equality?
Has human kindness been lost because of the fear of offending a woman or is it a stand to show we are equal?

I want to add, I do not want this to be construed that all men have given up on chivalrous acts, I have seen them too, but I wanted explore the side where it is less common today then it was years ago.

Gender equality should have no influence on our use of common courtesy.
Rudeness and lack of courtesy are relative to this discussion and my experience with certain northern and eastern states indicates that this is a geographic issue.
I was raised in Texas, spent some of my military years all over the USA, but settled in the western part of the country.
I tend to hold doors open for anyone and everyone but especially the ladies and the elderly. The only time I ever got a negative response, or rude silence as tho I was their personal doorman, was in those northern or eastern states.
And as for actual equality, it can never exist. There are too many variables between men and women, men and other men, women and other women, etc.
Equal opportunity is the real goal.

I believe it's hard to find a universal answer for this. Some women find it nice to have the car door opened for them, some are offended by it, and some expect it. Much of it, I believe, comes from upbringing. Which, coincidentally, also affects the issue from the male side; how chivalrous one is depends on his upbringing. I do not feel that these offers of courtesy, whether common or uncommon, should be seen as degrading. The idea of offering these courtesies to the "fairer sex" is steeped in a long tradition, and although tradition does not necessarily make things right, a tradition of performing good deeds doesn't seem all that bad. Even if it is a dying, but not dead, tradition.

Although a fear of offending women likely contributed to the downfall of its use, chivalry seems to have fallen by the wayside for other reasons, too, so I wouldn't place the entire blame on that. Bill55AZ has taken it is a geographical issue, which i also will buy to a small extent, because of the different lifestyles in these different places. The fast-paced, high intensity, low-carb (ugh) New York lifestyle is worlds away from the atmospheres in other regions of the country, such as the South, Midwest, and West, all of which I would characterize as "more relaxed" to varying degrees (with the South being the "most relaxed"). These more relazed areas are more likely to display chivalry because of the nature of society there. Also, women's lib. and equal rights have also caused chivalry to fall by the wayside not because men are afraid of offending women, but because it makes chivalry appear outdated and archaic even, whether offensive or not... the importance of chivalry in society appears less as the two sexes become more equal. So while may not be offended by receiving chivalry, they may also not be offended by not receiving, whereas in the past not receiving it may have been offensive.

At any rate, chivalry is probably just a way for us men to make up for not experiencing menstruation and childbirth .

To offer acts of chivalry and mean them, men must consider women to be a "weaker sex". Now I know that this phrase has a lot of negative to it nowdays (and I got a whole lot of flak for using that term from my fellow students in UC and female coworkers), but in reality woman's equality has nothing to do with it. Where I come from women tend to get more of "chivalrious attitude" which may include yielding a seat in a public transportation, holding the door, opening a door in a car, offering a hand when exiting a bus, etc.) The difference is that women there tend to embrace term "the weaker sex" term and use it to their advantage rather than avoid it and fight it (which may explain why the word feminism has a highly negative connotation for an overwhelming majority of Russian women). Just a difference in cultures I guess...
To answer a question - chivalry is not in direct conflict with woman's equality as long as equality represents equal opportunities and not physical equivalency (after all, we still don't have unisex boxer matches... )

Is chivalry in direct conflict with a woman’s equality?
No, I don't think so.
I consider myself "chivalrous" (though I would probably not use the word myself - "well-mannered" maybe, if I had to choose). I give up my seat to pregnant women; the elderly; anyone (male or female) with young children that might need to be sat on their lap; anyone carrying anything heavier than a briefcase; and anyone else who looks like they need it more than I do (tired, sick, etc).

I don't usually give up my seat for a healthy person of either gender who looks as healthy or fit as me, or better - first-come-first-served kicks in there. Though I might make an exception to get a smile from a good-looking woman. (In fact, thinking about it, not smiling or saying thank you is one thing that peeves me).

I hold doors open for anyone walking close behind me, carrying anything heavy, etc as before.

I open and close my car's passenger door for women passengers (though this has more to do with it being a heavy door, and women seem to overcompensate and slam it shut really hard, so I do it to avoid losing an eardrum )

I usually allow people to go in front of me through a door with an "after you", though if this is repeated by both sides more than once, I'll go through first myself to avoid wasting hours saying "after you to one another".

To sum up, I choose to sacrifice or postpone my own self interest (a decent enough working definition of manners/chivalry?) fairly often, but I do it on the bais of what I consider to be the other person's need being greater than mine, and I do not automatically consider that female gender qualifies as a greater need.

Has human kindness been lost because of the fear of offending a woman or is it a stand to show we are equal?
I think that a small number of early feminists made a show of being offended by chivalry as old fashioned and demeaning. I think that they were doing this to make a (reasonable enough) point about equality, but men, being somewhat more literally-minded than women, took it at face value and assumed it meant tey would be shouted at and generally not liked as much if they opened doors or carried bags, so they didn't offer to do it as much. I think that the majority of women were quietly rather annoyed at their louder sisters for doing this, and rather disappointed in men for jumping to the "wrong" conclusion.

For myself, I don't consider myself less chivalrous than pre-feminist men, just differentl so. And my perception of female equality is that I expect women to open doors or give up seats for me if I am carrying heavy things, shepherding kids, have a limb in plaster, etc.

Is chivalry in direct conflict with a woman’s equality?
I think so. I feminists would allow a man to carry her groceries that she could not, it would be like admitting that she cannot do what a man can. In my younger years I worked for a grocer, and this particular one would make us carry everyones grocery to a car. EVERYONE. I found that most men would be indifferent about it, but the women and elderly would drone on about how they could take it themselves. It almost seemed like the people we were trying to assist the most were ashamed to receive help even when they had no choice.

Has human kindness been lost because of the fear of offending a woman or is it a stand to show we are equal?
I think that is part of it. I agree with Bill on this that it is mostly a problem in the NE. I think the way the northeast looks at life is completely different then the rest of the country. They tend to always look for what is in it for them. For example, this Fourth of July I was privledged enough to be at Riverside for the fireworks and on the way back we had to catch the subway back to Queens. There was about ten of us in our party when we saw a woman struggling to get her stroller down the stairs with stuff in her hands. I helped her down, despite the fact that 8 people were yelling at me that I was going to miss the train. When we got settled in the train they asked me "would she have helped you?" All I could have said is it didn't matter.

Is chivalry in direct conflict with a woman’s equality?
I do not think that equality should ever play a role in acts of kindness. I do not believe that women are degraded or their strengths as a woman are diminished due to chivalrous acts. I do think that the decline of chivalrous acts is a long term (and sad) result of a woman's fight for equality. But they lost the concept of what chivalry is when fighting for equal rights. Those women who are offended or suspicious of an act of kindness from a man are part of the increasing trend. The author of the article I posted above made a strong point about the glare the man received for offering his seat. As more men receive negative feedback for being nice then it can be reasoned that they may be less likely to do it again. Kindness and respect can come from both men and women and there is equality in being nice to strangers.

Women and Chivalry: Damsels in distress no longer!
Has human kindness been lost because of the fear of offending a woman or is it a stand to show we are equal?
I believe that it has, not across the board but it certainly has declined. The way I see it is probably in the beginning it was due to offending woman and to show equality. So while the roots of today can be traced to the woman’s rights movement I think what we see today is the evolution of that initial response. The children of today are increasingly not taught this behavior. When Piper Plexed and I came upon this subject it was because I said that I don’t usually think about feminism. My parent’s never instilled in me that I couldn’t do something because I was female. The world was for my taking and anything I wanted to do was there at my disposal. I just had to want it to get it. The words, “you can’t do that” were words that that didn’t hit my ears. Piper Plexed said, ah but you reap the benefits of the woman’s rights movement. She was right. As she, when a man opens my door, offer’s me a seat, or does anything that is “chivalrous” we say thank you and smile. Not because it is a man but because it was kind. As she, I offer that kindness in return. To men or women who may need it.

I wanted to address some other points posted here. As far as geography, yes that probably plays a role but not a sole role. Upbringing is certainly another factor. I suppose it is just that we need to all realize that chivalry should be reciprocal. The more people who teach their children to be kind and courteous the better off we will all be.


Well I can understand why you would receive negative feedback for that comment! I would counter that men do not have to consider women “weaker” to be kind. The principles of chivalry does not take weakness into account.


He He. This was my point above, men and women can both embrace chivalry and yes it should be a two way street.


You know sometimes when someone offer’s to help me I may so no thank you. It wasn’t out of shame that that the other person didn’t think I could do it. It was because I really was OK. I never walked away feeling angry that this person didn’t think I could handle it because I was a woman. I walk away thinking, how nice that this stranger offered to help. So perhaps when someone declines help we need to realize that it isn’t “always” for feminist reasons.

Not true! I open doors all of the time for women--just being nice. Sometimes, I even hold it while they walk through. When I get into a cab, I open the door for her first. When my girlfriend and I go on long trips--guess what...I drive. When we go on a date, I pay (something must be done about this). AND I DONT THINK WOMEN ARE WEAK.

It's just, well chivalry. Part of our society, and thus it is not dead.

I see "chivalry" as a two-way street. It's basically simple kindness. Basically I believe we can all -- men and women -- work on being more chivalrous.

An example: If I reach a door first and have people behind me, I automatically open the door and hold it open for the others to pass through -- men, women, children, etc. I have had men, especially older men, balk and try to take the door from me and hold it open for me -- some of them seem quite flustered to have a woman (especially when I was pregnant) open the door for them. But it is any easy thing to do and friendly, so it is not a burden for me to do it.

I also don't expect things to be done for me, but I don't balk if someone opens a door or tries to help me when I'm struggling with something. They are just trying to be friendly and having been in that same position of trying to help others, I appreciate their efforts.

During my dating days I insisted on paying half when we were coming from more or less equal situations. I once had a boyfriend a year younger and a senior in high school while I was out of school and working. In that case I paid for most of our dates since I had money and he didn't -- it didn't bother me at all. When I was a single mom earning $6.50/hour dating a man who earned quite a bit more, I didn't have a problem letting him pay.



Both of those may have a little to do with it, but in general I believe that people are more self-absorbed these days. I also think that upbringing has something to do with it.

No. In fact, these days it is also possible for women to demonstrate the qualities of "bravery, courtesy, honor and gallantry" toward men and other women. I try to be chivalrous.


There are probably misguided feminists out there who misconstrue a man's motives if he opens a door for her or offers to help her carry something and think that the man is treating her as an inferior. I construe it as courtesy. I say "thank you" and I hold doors open for men as well as women.

Human kindness isn't totally lost. It needs to be emphasized once again by parents as their children are learning social mores. These children also need to learn to be gracious and say "thank you" when someone kindly helps them or offers to help without expectation of a reward.

Yes, it is irritating when you hold a door open for someone who steps through it and doesn't acknowledge your kindness, but it is a reflection on that person, not on you. As jenreiautter said, we live in a world filled with self-absorbed people who are not aware of or unconcerned about the well-being of others.

But to adopt uncaring behavior because of rebuffs from those to whom you have extended courtesy or kindness is to make the world an unhappier place. Kindness and good manners make our lives more bearable. There are just fewer good role models than there used to be.

I live in a rural area. I would say chivalry certainly is not dead here. People help older people with groceries and all that.

At times I do feel out of place to request if a women needs help though. It isnt because I do not care but because I am worried that the woman I may potentially help will think or say I am flirting with her or maybe harassing her. Maybe that is something that bled into me from the military. A UCMJ law exists that says a man convicted of rape in the military can get life imprisonment but a woman who lies and says a man raped her can only get 3 years if they prove she was lying. Being alone with a woman is scary w/o witnesses. She can potentially say anything and whether its true or not her allegations could essentially ruin your life. I think its reciprocal as well. Woman are on edge when around men alone because of a fear of rape. I think the news has sapped part of our ability to interact like normal people around the opposite of sex.

Or it could juts be the military for me. In the military you are instructed to stay away from females and you cannot use a female as a battle buddy and it is taboo to be with a female soldier alone. It is a weird situation. I have women in my company and in my platoon but I cannot be in the room alone with them and have the door shut. Things as subjective as a stare can be seen as sexual harassment in the military.

I doubt that much has changed chivalry-wise. Were things really so different back in the old days when the term was coined? Knights might have been downright obsequious to women of nobility, but I doubt the peasant women received any special treatment.

I come from south Florida, a place with a very high percentage of old people. It is also one of the rudest places I've ever lived. An old man actually looked at me and slammed the door in my face while I was carrying a baby. Did these people outlive their good manners and 'chivalry', or was it never there to begin with? I think the latter. Some men (just like women) are naturally polite, and others are only polite when they believe they are likely to benefit from it. That's the way it has always been.

Excellent, Mrs. P, a fellow cynic. Yes, I completely agree. I think that chivalry is a romantic myth, that it only exists as an ideal and has never attained what people would like it to have attained. Of course, I don't disagree with the principles of aperture accommodation, seat sacrifice and payment propitiation. I enact them all the time. Often though, I don't use gender as my overriding qualifier for when I commit those acts of kindness.

I don't think people are behaving substantially differently over time: the ratio of people who commit acts of kindness has remained constant. While it may be true that men opening doors for women has decreased, I believe this decrease is due to those men knowing that opening a door is no longer a good technique for hitting on women. That is, the proportion of people doing acts of kindness motivated primarily by kindness remains at a constant level (whatever that may be). The epiphenomenon may have changed but the internal state remains the same.

DreamPiper,

Thanks for the link to the article. Seems like a good question to explore.

I think a culture of chivalry upholds the equal dignity of women. Without chivalry, the dignity and rights of women would be trampled. Special acts of kindness/protection/security offered from men show that they value feminine gifts and qualities of women and thus make special sacrifices.

The only thing I can think of that would be at odds with such a practice is fear. Fear of trusting because of a past experience, fear of appearing needy, or something related.

I think the response of one of the readers of that article was interesting in that she lauded her husband for "treating her like a lady". That was a nice endorsement.