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Passion51
The recent debate about screening airline passengers leads me to ask this question for debate.

Why not have national ID cards with biometric identifiers for every legal person in this country?
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GodlessUSSoldier
Of course if the feds were to try that the conspiracy kooks, the privacy advocates, and the end-times freaks would all start frothing at the mouth. Such an attempt would likely be viewed by a significant portion of the population as either a precursor to the "New World Order", a sign of the emergence of "Big Brother", or the "Mark of the Beast". America has too many wing-nuts to accomplish such a small thing as national ID cards. Just imagine the uproar if we tried to actually make a nationalized health-care system like civilized nations have. About the only thing the majority of Americans agree on is that you can never completely trust the government.
DaffyGrl
Why not have national ID cards with biometric identifiers for every legal person in this country?
I shudder to think that this country is headed toward issuing National IDs. It’s one step closer to an Orwellian totalitarian government. One of the things that makes America great is the independence and freedom of the individual. I adamantly oppose giving the government more rights to monitor every aspect of my life. There are so many potential abuses, it would take a volume to list them all.

QUOTE
ID cards are established for a variety of reasons. Race, politics and religion were often at the heart of older ID systems. The threat of insurgents or political extremists, and the exercise of religious discrimination have been all too common as motivation for the establishment of ID systems which would force enemies of the State into registration, or make them vulnerable in the open without proper documents. In Pakistan, the cards are used to enforce a quota system, In China, they are used as a tool of social engineering.

At the heart of such plans is a parallel increase in police powers. Even in democratic nations, police retain the right to demand ID on pain of detention. Privacy International FAQs

Do we really want this to be our country? I certainly don’t.

Edited to fix link.
njs6
QUOTE(Passion51 Posted on Aug 7 2004 @ 06:56 PM )
Why not have national ID cards with biometric identifiers for every legal person in this country?


I wasn't sure what "Biometric" meant, so I looked it up. It means:
QUOTE
The statistical study of biological phenomena. the dictionary


So, whatever that means--it sounds scary. So--no. No ID cards with biometric identifiers. I don't want the government knowing about my biometrics--or using them to track criminals, political oppononents, whatever.

I don't mind the ID per se--we have de facto state ID's--drivers licenses. We even sort of have national cards, passports. It would be convenient and easy to check ID at bars.

However, the idea that this could somehow be used the wrong way really bothers me.
Hero
QUOTE(GodlessUSSoldier)
Of course if the feds were to try that the conspiracy kooks, the privacy advocates, and the end-times freaks would all start frothing at the mouth. Such an attempt would likely be viewed by a significant portion of the population as either a precursor to the "New World Order", a sign of the emergence of "Big Brother", or the "Mark of the Beast". America has too many wing-nuts to accomplish such a small thing as national ID cards. Just imagine the uproar if we tried to actually make a nationalized health-care system like civilized nations have. About the only thing the majority of Americans agree on is that you can never completely trust the government.


Frothing like a St Bernard with rabies. You don't have to be a conspiracy nut to be scared by this stuff. I think regular people should be scared by this, but then again, the patriot act got past most of the American Public, so... darn. Sure there are obvious benefits to streamlining ID's, but I like the idea that Mr. Fed has to go through a few checks and balances before looking over my shoulder. Keep in mind a society can be "Orwellian" and not look anything like Orwell's 1984. All it needs is a thoroughly indoctrinated and distracted proletariat(Think about the TV family in Fahrenheit 451), a satisfied elite class, and perpetual war that begets state run media and propoghanda.

The "proletariat" of America is pretty well brainwashed and I think we all can agree it doesn't matter which direction (R&L), just people are screwed up and misinformed in general. STRIKE ONE. What has the Bush Administration succeeded in doing best? Satisfying those elites,

QUOTE(Bush)
"...Some might call you the elite... I call you my base."


Indeed. We have all heard and seen just how well W takes care of his own. STRIKE TWO

The United States of America has been in military conflict of some kind almost ceaselessly since WW1. It is not perpetual war, yet. BALL!

Finally, State run media... Watched Fox News Lately? Well next time you do, ask yourself "Self, if this were directly state run media, would it look any different? I doubt it'd be much different. Strike three...

My point is just that you don't have to be a true paranoid conspiracy case to connect dots so simple. Sure, life is good, for us, but I see parralels to negative utopias developing in realtime around me and I can help but shudder. Biology based ID cards are a short sprint from barcodes.
Cyan
From the CBC: Biometrics:The Future of Security

QUOTE
Biometrics is the science of using a person's unique physiological characteristics to verify their identity or in the official language of the U. S. Department of Homeland Security: "A measurable, physical characteristic or personal behavioural trait used to recognize the identity or verify the claimed identity [of a person]."

Biometrics measures:
Face
Fingerprints
Hand geometry
Handwriting
Iris of the eye
Retinal veins in the eye
Voice


The article goes into further detail about each method of identification.

There are obvious benefits to these types of systems particularly in regards to improving security and reducing identity theft, but there are ethical concerns as well. The ID would have to be linked to a large central database, and it would create a system in which the federal government could conceivably track nearly everything that its citizens do...where we go, what our financial transactions are, etc. There is a large potential for misuse of this data that is not compatible with the fourth amendment of the constitution.

QUOTE
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


The misuse of sensitive information is a valid concern. Consider the fact that social security numbers were initially introduced for the sole purpose of identifying individuals within the social security program, but over time their usage has been expanded by the government, and we are also required to submit the number for a large number of other private identification purposes.

Additionally, what happens if a system error occurs or someone manages to hack into the system and modify personal data? It's not like a stolen credit card or an ATM pin where one account is closed and a new number is issued without effecting other forms of personal identification. There has to be a system in place that can correct for errors that won't leave a person in limbo for an indiscriminate amount of time. With such a large, inevitably bureaucratic system that would likely replace other forms of identification, this could become a huge problem.

It's probable that this technology will be widely used in the future, as it's already being used by private companies to limit access to secure data, but the ethics of the situation need to be addressed, and I'm not at all comfortable with a centralized, involuntary federal database.
AuthorMusician
QUOTE
Why not have national ID cards with biometric identifiers for every legal person in this country?


We already have the national ID number, that is if you want employment. It's the Social Security number. From that hunk of information, a good deal of an individual's personal information can be collected.

It wasn't supposed to turn out this way, but it did. When I worked for FedX, the employee number was the SS number. Not sure if they still do that. It's pretty risky for employees to be running around with a badge that advertises the number. And I think it was Tennessee (or Virginia?) that had the SS number as the driver's license number. What a boon to pickpockets and purse snatchers!

Fingerprint scanners are in use right now as well. I think they are a lot better than password-protecting computing systems, and my current contract employee security badge has a chip holding a fingerprint scan in it.

I am for the use of biometrics to help keep security tight and less troublesome, but it should only be used for accessing sensitive areas -- computing systems, financial transactions, airlines and so on. To keep a national biometric ID system, we'll just be asking for its misuse as has happened with the SS number.

If we think we'll avoid another 9/11 by doing a national ID card, think again. It was the failure of the intelligence community to see the threat ahead of time. Or rather, it was a failure to convince those who needed to know, and those who needed to know failed to take the threat seriously. However that's argued, I doubt a national ID card would have been effective.

In effect, we already have the Orwellian BB watching us. Law enforcement can check out all sorts of our personal information during an investigation. It isn't the access to info that's needed as much as a better system for info analysis and communication.

A national ID might appeal because it is simple and relatively easy to implement. Still, it would be just a bandaid on a broken leg.
GodlessUSSoldier
[quote=AuthorMusician,Aug 8 2004, 07:42 AM] [QUOTE]And I think it was Tennessee (or Virginia?) that had the SS number as the driver's license number. What a boon to pickpockets and purse snatchers! [/quote]
You were correct the first time. It is Tennessee. I have a Tennessee driver's license (I am stationed on the "Tennesucky" border here at Ft. Campbell) and had to specify that I didn't want my SSN on it. I objected for precisely the same reason you mention...too easy for ID thieves.

Personally, I am against a national ID ( Though I already have one in the Form of my DoDCIO/OUSD(P&R) card). I do not like the idea of being that much easier to track. They can already track my cell phone, I would rather not have my activities monitored without a warrant from probable-cause. Call me gullible, but when I swore to uphold and defend the Constitution I thought that meant it was still in effect.
ibelsd
A national ID would not turn us into a totalitarian state. I am not sure it would make it any easier than it is now. It could be used to streamline several agencies and numbers, hence saving money. We could eliminate the state DMV, driver's licenses, and social security cards. Those who oppose the national ID card, are loathe to face reality in the 21st century. Your information is all on computer. It is for sale by hook or by crook. A national ID could be abused as easily as it could be used to safeguard your identity. One national ID card would be more difficult to forge or use improperly. It is a daunting job attempting to identify a counterfit driver's license when there are 50 different states providing them. Right now, with your name, I can track down your SSN, get your date/place of birth, make a fake id which is virtually impossible to detect, and pretty much control your life. A national ID would be a nice deterent against ID fraud if done properly. Passports are rarely (if ever) forged. I have never seen a means to buy one over the internet. When is the last time someone has produced counterfet money inside the U.S.? With the backing of the feds, such id's could be much more secure than the average state id.
SCurl
I agree that it would streamline the way things are done in this country if they involve an ID card. But biometric, I do not see how that would be useful in the field.

You also have to realize that the government would not be able to track you unless the card was scanned at the location (or if it contained an RF transmitter like some products in stores carry). So if it was used like a standard ID is used when paying with a credit card or check then it would not be an issue. But on the other side, some clubs require you to scan your ID to verify it is real, so if you went to a gay bar for instance the government would be able to flag you as a homosexual, for what purpose I don't know, but they could.

All that is fine, but in reality wouldn't this just shift the information from a state basis to a national basis, condensing it from 50 smaller databases to one larger database?
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Bob-Larkin
QUOTE(GodlessUSSoldier @ Aug 7 2004, 09:26 PM)
Of course if the feds were to try that the conspiracy kooks, the privacy advocates, and the end-times freaks would all start frothing at the mouth. Such an attempt would likely be viewed by a significant portion of the population as either a precursor to the "New World Order", a sign of the emergence of "Big Brother", or the "Mark of the Beast". America has too many wing-nuts to accomplish such a small thing as national ID cards. Just imagine the uproar if we tried to actually make a nationalized health-care system like civilized nations have. About the only thing the majority of Americans agree on is that you can never completely trust the government.

Do you honestly believe that National ID is ONLY opposed by nuts? I am STAUNCHLY against such an idea. It's bad enough that the government is doing all it can to get into your financial records, purchases, etc... WHY would anyone want to give them even more? Do you believe in Privacy? I do. I don't want the government tracking my every move. I rarely use anything other than cash for purchases. I don't fly (no need to). I won't EVER own a car with GPS or any other type of tracking system. Before I sign ANYTHING, I make certain that no one other than the intended person or company will see anything I've written. I won't give Radio Shack my phone number. I have a very healthy fear of government intrusion into my life and I am not going to willingly give them anything more than I need to. The constitution guarantees that I am to be safe in my papers and belongings but that isn't the case any longer. I will not submit to a national id system unless forced at gunpoint.
Cadman
QUOTE(ibelsd @ Aug 16 2004, 05:20 PM)
When is the last time someone has produced counterfet money inside the U.S.? 

Sorry to say but ibelsd but less than a month after the new $20 bill came out their were counterfeits running around Mass. and Ind. and this is just one I first came upon on a search.

Counterfeit new $20s debut

QUOTE
Less than a month after the release of new $20 dollar bills with features designed to deter forgeries, counterfeiters are already at work.

snipet

The U.S. government seized about $130 million in (unused) counterfeit notes last year, according to the Secret Service. Almost $44 million more was retrieved from circulation. Nearly 5,000 people involved were arrested.


Why do you think the federal government has to keep changing the bills every few years, hmm because they can be counterfeited. All you have to do to find out that National ID cards wont work is watch any show on identity theft were social security numbers were used and how hard it is for the people of identity theft to get there credit and life back to normal if ever. Or just think of how wonderful a job we are doing from keeping green card's from being counterfeited.

Just like others have stated the original intent of the social security system was not meant to be used like it is being used today by way to many industries the National ID card eventually would be open to more abuses. Just think how great it would be to have all your medical information on a National ID card just in case an accident happens. Were it might seem innocent it could become nefarious as some have stated a few examples.

From the Cato Institute on National ID cards. National ID Cards: New Technologies, Same Bad Idea

QUOTE
The bottom line is that mandatory national ID cards aren't going to help us catch many bad guys. While the first responsibility of government is to protect our lives and property, we shouldn't rush into giving up some of our freedoms unnecessarily. We need things that actually matter, not just symbolic gestures. Instead of providing such a meaningful solution, national ID cards will become, at a minimum, an unnecessary nuisance for most citizens. Worse yet, in extreme cases, it could produce massive breaches of individual privacy.


Just a little search on the net about counterfeit passports brought up a lot of hits here's one from the Global Policy Forum. How to Fake a Passport

So as the Cato Institute remarked that if we think this is going to help us catch the bad guys we are only kidding ourselves with symbolic gestures of hope.
UserName
QUOTE
A national ID would not turn us into a totalitarian state.  I am not sure it would make it any easier than it is now.  It could be used to streamline several agencies and numbers, hence saving money.  We could eliminate the state DMV, driver's licenses, and social security cards.  Those who oppose the national ID card, are loathe to face reality in the 21st century.  Your information is all on computer.  It is for sale by hook or by crook.  A national ID could be abused as easily as it could be used to safeguard your identity.  One national ID card would be more difficult to forge or use improperly.  It is a daunting job attempting to identify a counterfit driver's license when there are 50 different states providing them.  Right now, with your name, I can track down your SSN, get your date/place of birth, make a fake id which is virtually impossible to detect, and pretty much control your life.  A national ID would be a nice deterent against ID fraud if done properly.  Passports are rarely (if ever) forged.  I have never seen a means to buy one over the internet.  When is the last time someone has produced counterfet money inside the U.S.?  With the backing of the feds, such id's could be much more secure than the average state id.


Are you suggesting that a national ID agency would replace some or most of our Federal Agencies; thus forcing thousands of Americans to lose their jobs?

This would be just one more step towards the total elimination of the middle class, IMHO. One agency that replaces several, cannot possibly utilize all or most of the Americans who will lose their jobs with a move such as this.

As for driver's licenses, the money generated from these stays in the State in which you reside, the same with your car tag. Without these, where do you suppose the money would go? To the Feds, maybe?

One step closer to a State run government.

In the last couple of years, the Treasury Department has change our $20. bill because it was so easily counterfeited, I don't know whether the counterfeiting was done here in the US, though.

National ID just rings ominous with me. The only words that should follow National are Lampoon and Velvet, but that's just MHO. innocent.gif
carlitoswhey
Why not have national ID cards with biometric identifiers for every legal person in this country?

No thanks. I'm not a wing-nut per se rolleyes.gif , but I refuse to give my SS# every time it's asked of me other than where required by law. They almost refused to give me a driver's license in Illinois until I insisted to a supervisor that listing the SS # was 'optional,' which it is.

Interesting point - national ID card for every LEGAL person. Our country refuses to enforce immigration law to the point of comedy, releasing illegals into the legal community, refusing to enforce the borders, forbidding law enforcement from even asking, etc. What would be the backlash of having an ID card only for those of us that are legal? Would this card be required for employment? If so, illegal immigrants would have to go beyond the current borrowed Social Security card and move to more sophisticated counterfeiting. We would surely see increased identity theft, complete with biometrics, etc.

Other than the obvious big-brotherism, we would be better served enforcing existing laws on immigration, employment, airline security, etc. rather than have a society that has to produce 'papers' on demand.
Hero
This topic seems out of place in the war on terrorism scheme, how about domestic policy or something?

QUOTE(carlitoswhey)
Interesting point - national ID card for every LEGAL person. Our country refuses to enforce immigration law to the point of comedy, releasing illegals into the legal community, refusing to enforce the borders, forbidding law enforcement from even asking, etc.


Immigration, though a touchy issue, is simpler than most let on to. The reason that we have so much illegal immigration is not becuase we have so many immigrants seeking employment, its the number of companys willing to employ. The easiest solution to immigration is to crack down ENTIRELY on complanies who rely on illegal immigrants, I mean crack down hard. Give the laborers a temp-card that allows them some time to work towards citizenship, or deport them, the most important thing is compassion for the individual. No compassion for the businesses who reap profits because of these people's unfortunate skin color and birthplace. Border enforcement is not at all the answer. It's simple cause and effect reasoning. Want to stop the influx of immigration? Take away the motivation instead of supporting a system that inherently depends on illegal labor and then pretending that the labor doesn't exist and lamely trying to prevent immigration through customs enforcement.

QUOTE
What would be the backlash of having an ID card only for those of us that are legal? Would this card be required for employment?


We all have ID already as well as a federally rooted SSecurity #. The difference is the streamlining of other functions as well. It would ease the simple collection of data on individuals allowing for a national database containing information that for now is only accessed after a few checks and balances. Removing those barriers is borderline un-constitutional.

QUOTE
Other than the obvious big-brotherism, we would be better served enforcing existing laws on immigration, employment, airline security, etc. rather than have a society that has to produce 'papers' on demand.


As above, these measures are aimed at containing the effect not preventing the cause. Carlitoswhey, wouldn't you agree? Isn't it most effective to prevent the cause as opposed to containing the effect. Sometimes neither is effective (The war on drugs is an example of bad policy).
UserName
QUOTE
Drexler Technology Receives $1 Million LaserCard Order for U.S. Department of Homeland Security Multi-Biometric ID Border Crossing Cards - July 14, 2003


Drexler Technology Receives $2 Million LaserCard Order for U.S.(corrected release)

Department of Homeland Security Multi-Biometric ID Border Crossing Cards.
..............

Drexler Technology Corporation (Nasdaq: DRXR) has received a LaserCard order for U.S. Department of Homeland Security multi-biometric ID Border Crossing Cards to be used as visas for U.S. visits by Mexican citizens.

These optical memory cards are to be functionally compatible with the 24 biometric ID verification systems that were tested successfully by the U.S. government at two airports and four land border-crossing points earlier this year. Following those tests, on April 22, 2003, a Presolicitation Notice was issued by the Department of Homeland Security for the purchase of "approximately 1,000 Optical Stripe Reader/Writers" for use in similar biometric verification systems.

Forward-Looking Statements: All statements contained in this press release that are not historical facts are forward-looking statements. These forward-looking statements are made pursuant to the safe harbor provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. They are not historical facts or guarantees of future performance or events. Rather, they are based on current expectations, estimates, beliefs, assumptions, and goals and objectives and are subject to uncertainties that are difficult to predict. As a result, our actual results may differ materially from the statements made. Often such statements can be identified by their use of words such as may, will, intends, plans, believes, anticipates, visualizes, expects, and estimates. Forward-looking statements made in this release include statements as to current and potential market segments, customers, and applications for the Company's products; anticipated or potential U.S. government business and plans; and the Company's plans and objectives. These forward-looking statements are based upon our assumptions about and assessment of the future, which may or may not prove true, and involve a number of risks and uncertainties including, but not limited to, the Company's reliance on VARs and licensees; risks and difficulties associated with development, manufacture, and deployment of optical cards, drives, and systems; the U.S. government's right to withhold order releases relating to cards and to modify or withdraw its reader/writer equipment Presolicitation Notice or to award any resulting contract; the impact of technological advances, competitive products, and general economic trends; as well as other risk factors detailed in the Company's Form 8-K, 10-K, and 10-Q filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Due to these and other risks, the Company's future actual results could differ materially from the Company's expectations. These forward-looking statements speak only as to the date of this release, and, except as required by law, we undertake no obligation to publicly release updates or revisions to these statements whether as a result of new information, future events, or otherwise. There is no assurance that the Company's card products will be selected for implementation of the Enhanced Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act or related legislation or programs.
(emphasis mine)
http://www.findbiometrics.com/viewnews.php?id=333


Let's see now, 1,000 cards already bought at $2M.
That comes out to only $2K each card to be used instead of VISAS for Mexican citizens.

Have we had an influx of Mexican terrorists? hmmm.gif

So, you see folks, the National ID legislation has already been passed (2002) and we really have no choice. It begins with passports and ends who knows where.

Looking into a group rate for flights to New Zealand if anybody else is interested! mrsparkle.gif
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